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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

Tero.

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
RaynEX said:
The only thing one can do: become the superior Fox and crush them into the dust. This contrived "individuality" people strive for through (supposedly) new tech and flashy combos / techskill is artificial and subject to limitations. It could be 10 Foxes or 100000 Foxes, its ultimately irrelevant if you're one of the few that can actually push the character to victory when it matters most and under the most strenuous conditions.

You differentiate yourself from all the other bozos by being better than them. Dashdance better, edge-guard better, learn more MU specific strategies, grind PRACTICAL techskill, don't be a slave to your impulses, intelligently assess risk/reward situations, don't flail around like an idiot when you don't know what to do (especially on shields, near edges), etc.

I used to really care about this whole idea of differentiating myself from the army of Foxes, way back in the day. Now I'm simply better than the vast majority. Trust me, that's much more important than being different.
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great post.
I'm on this!
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
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Messages
26,545
I've always been fascinated by the incessant desire of Fox players to play sub-optimally in different ways.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Strong Bad said:
I've always been fascinated by the incessant desire of Fox players to play sub-optimally in different ways.
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i know right let's blow some minds:

fox is only broken because he can choose when to attack. if you're not doing this as fox you're better off switching to pikachu.
 
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Pengie

Pengie

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
1,125
Location
Atlanta, GA
Umbreon said:
i know right let's blow some minds:

fox is only broken because he can choose when to attack. if you're not doing this as fox you're better off switching to pikachu.
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You know, i never thought of it, but this seems so spot on; like if you aren't gonna use what makes Fox a stupid character, you're probably nairing at people over and over, so you might as well pick the character whose entire game revolves around nairing directly at people and nairing slightly past them.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Pengie said:
You know, i never thought of it, but this seems so spot on; like if you aren't gonna use what makes Fox a stupid character, you're probably nairing at people over and over, so you might as well pick the character whose entire game revolves around nairing directly at people and nairing slightly past them.
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you also get a better upsmash, better tech, better recovery, better combo weight, much less experienced opponents, and lots of people think you're cool.
 
D

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
2,665
Location
Atlanta
Everytime I play fox I actually just think I should play marth instead

*shrug*

So much for caring about the character >_>
 
Engo

Engo

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Messages
865
Location
the dog,the dog he's at it again!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC-GcS0qSwU

posting this again so hopefully i can get some feedback.

Something I'm very uncomfortable with vs sheik is the neutral game. I mostly play it by instinct but I want to understand it better.Is dash dancing grabbing tilts feasible? It seems incredibly hard. I usually resort to run in and cc the tilts if they're spamming them into a waveshine grab.

Also some comments on how to improve my edguarding vs sheik would be cool too if possible.

Any feedback is appreciated!
 
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Pengie

Pengie

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
1,125
Location
Atlanta, GA
Druggedfox said:
Everytime I play fox I actually just think I should play marth instead

*shrug*

So much for caring about the character >_>
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Yeah and everytime you play Marth you inevitably go back to Fox :v

Engo said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC-GcS0qSwU

posting this again so hopefully i can get some feedback.

Something I'm very uncomfortable with vs sheik is the neutral game. I mostly play it by instinct but I want to understand it better.Is dash dancing grabbing tilts feasible? It seems incredibly hard. I usually resort to run in and cc the tilts if they're spamming them into a waveshine grab.

Also some comments on how to improve my edguarding vs sheik would be cool too if possible.

Any feedback is appreciated!
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Sheik is an interesting matchup. Both of you destroy each other off of solid hits, but Fox has an easier time landing solid hits because he can CC Sheik's big moves for a while. Neutral in this matchup is tricky as well; if they are whiffing tilts a lot, you can definitely grab it on reaction (assuming you space yourself properly to do so), but you have to be specifically looking for it otherwise you're probably not gonna react to it in time. I don't particularly like running up to Sheik and CCing her tilt because it opens you up to running directly into her grab which is obviously bad because Sheik's tech case game on Fox is ********. If you do this well enough, they'll eventually have to stop throwing out tilts to deal with you and instead they'll probably end up going to two different options to deal with Fox being Fox: either needles, or they'll run at you. Needles are the "safe" option, in the sense that it'll be what they most likely go for because they don't want to risk running at Fox and getting destroyed, but you can put them at risk for throwing needles by jumping over the needles at them which puts you right in Sheik's face on your terms which is a good spot to be in against her. The other method they have for dealing with Fox's DD shenanigans is that they can run at you. Now, this might sound somewhat stupid because Sheik isn't usually thought of as a character with strong approaches, but when Sheik runs at Fox properly it is one of the scariest things she can do. It basically turns the game into a stupid version of RPS where Fox has to guess whether Sheik is going to run at you and either grab, dash attack, or bait a response, and all of those options end pretty horribly for Fox if they're successful. On Fox's end, you can shield if you think the dash attack is coming (although this opens you up to getting grabbed), you could challenge her approach (although this gets you ****ed if she decides to do something like retreating SH AC fair or WD back grab), and these are the big two options that actually accomplish something, granted it comes with a pretty sizeable risk. Alternatively, if you see Sheik running at you, you could jump to avoid a lot of the mixup options that she has, but a lot of the time this won't accomplish a lot directly unless they overcommit. Instead what this affords you, is a good chance to break out of the dumb RPS game and go back to neutral. Mixing up between all of these options is a good way to deal with Sheik's mixups on approach.

Edgeguarding Sheik is pretty simple; grab the ledge, if she up-b's on to the stage and she's at a percent where your up smash won't kill, waveshine her across the stage and then knock her off on the other side and repeat until she dies to an upsmash, and if she'll die to an up smash just hit forward and charge an upsmash the appropriate amount to kill her; if she up-b's to a platform it's a bit trickier, but you can either keep bairing her off stage, or you can up air her and then keep juggling her. Ideally, even when juggling, you'd want to knock her back off stage at some point so that you can go back to using the really easy flow charty edgeguard.
 
burgerkong

burgerkong

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 31, 2013
Messages
16
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Engo said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC-GcS0qSwU

posting this again so hopefully i can get some feedback.

Something I'm very uncomfortable with vs sheik is the neutral game. I mostly play it by instinct but I want to understand it better.Is dash dancing grabbing tilts feasible? It seems incredibly hard. I usually resort to run in and cc the tilts if they're spamming them into a waveshine grab.

Also some comments on how to improve my edguarding vs sheik would be cool too if possible.

Any feedback is appreciated!
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Just out of curiosity, what did you strike for the neutral? Normally I'd ban FoD and Dreamland, but I assume you banned Battlefield or something?

To be honest, in the neutral, there's no reason to go on the offensive; you have a gun, so you can keep your lead and force Sheik's average approach by just SHLering. Especially on Dreamland, you have lots of room to work with to tack on extra percent. You ate a lot of ftilts from just running in trying to SHFFL nair.

Your edgeguards vs Sheik seem solid; standard ledgehog into onstage upsmash is perfectly fine. You did miss the timing a few times and got hit by the poof, but you were fairly consistent with it.

There were a couple of missed opportunities for shinespikes (2:20 and 8:00, Sheik can't do much if you're coming in at her from above for the shine), but overall you're solid when it comes to Sheik's recovery on stage. 3:15 probably should've been a shine too LOL but it worked out for you.

In terms of your out of shield game, iirc I only ever saw you shieldgrab or wavedash out of shield. Shine OOS and upsmash OOS are good options you should try to use, especially if he's doing unsafe stuff like ftilts and dash attacks (shine will hit behind you so even if the dash attack goes through you it should hit unless they space it perfectly).

You don't seem to go for up airs a lot off of up throw, you go for bairs a lot, which is odd since it kills Sheik fairly quickly especially on Yoshi's.

Your approaches were kind of one-dimensional, revolving around nair planing and dashdance --> grab, to the point it kind of got predictable in the neutral. There's no need to force approaches if you're in the lead IMO, though I understand playing lame isn't to everyone's liking. Doing stuff like dash shine (which you did a couple of times but rarely) and drills are ok too, or simply dash dancing until they crack is also a favourite of mine.

Hope this helped, it's hard to keep all this in mind and fight your natural instinct when you're actually in the game. I play a lot less intellectually when there's pressure, so I know the feels.

Though this is preference, I would've CP'd to Stadium for the lower ceiling; upairs and upsmash kills retardedly fast, and the stage transformations give you wall infinites if you're feeling gimmicky :p
 
L

l will find peace

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
52
So I was thinking about fox and how his shield pressure can be used, depending on the options out of shield you have and whether or not your dair stales. So vs sheik I know that roll is going to be safe, but if i fast fall, then I be in the club, standing on the couch, in them Wolf Greys, like it's my house. Drinking out the bottle, I got no respect; looking like a model, who just got a check (change). I back it up cause I don't give a ****.
If you a lame, that's a shame you can't hang with us. I'm MC Hammer fly, you can't touch. J's so fly I should work at Flight Club.

Any advice? Thx.
 
Chab

Chab

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
46
Location
Canada
Stopping by again for another question. What form of platform dropping should I be practicing? I wanna learn to bair (on platform) then drop through with a quick bair. I've seen lucky do it an excessive amount of times in his recent sets.

the technique to drop and the best way/drill to practice it would be awesome

thanks in advance

-chab
 
Oskurito

Oskurito

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
1,948
Location
Hell
shufflc on platform, drop by tilting the control stick down and slightly back (or forward) and then hit the c-stick again or a to back air then l cancel it when you reach the ground
 
Bones0

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
If you land on a platform with an aerial, you don't need to do anything special to drop through. Just press down as soon as your lag ends.

If you land without attacking (or with a laser), you need to Isai drop, which is done by hold-buffering a walk and then pressing down after at least 1 frame of walking. Walking interrupts the usual landing lag animation that you get which prevents you from dropping through the platform.
 
Oskurito

Oskurito

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Messages
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Location
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Correct me if I'm wrong but you can hold either forward or backwards to go in that direction as well?
 
D

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
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Location
Atlanta
So is single hit upair-->stuff ever a real combo?

Well, more importantly, if they have a double jump is there ever a situation they *can't* jump away from? Obviously it doesn't have to be a true combo if they don't have a good way out of it, and DJ seems like it would work the vast majority of the time.
 
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Chab

Chab

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
46
Location
Canada
Bones0 said:
If you land on a platform with an aerial, you don't need to do anything special to drop through. Just press down as soon as your lag ends.

If you land without attacking (or with a laser), you need to Isai drop, which is done by hold-buffering a walk and then pressing down after at least 1 frame of walking. Walking interrupts the usual landing lag animation that you get which prevents you from dropping through the platform.
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thanks yo. much appreciated will definitely work on the isai drop.
 
DJ _ICE

DJ _ICE

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 20, 2013
Messages
179
I remember a video where Fox's fastest options for reaching the ledge are all done frame perfectly. Does anyone here have the link?
 
L

l will find peace

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 5, 2013
Messages
52
get on the PP train and start using fair to extend combos

fox mains are so sub optimal wtf

also, some nerd should learn all the percents where sh uairing them onto a platform can continue stuff longer than usmash the onto platform -> they roll off a platfom.
 
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Lunatic666

Lunatic666

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
1
Any solid advice on practicing/(landing the dam thing) shdl. I can full hop double laser, SHL, and even do in all the fore mentioned in reverse but I can never land a SHDL.
Also what are PRATICAL tech skills I should pratice outside of pillaring and waveshining?
 
PGH Carroll

PGH Carroll

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 6, 2010
Messages
4,145
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Pittsburgh, PA aka #TipperCity
What do you guys like to do when a falcon gentlemens your sheild? usually after you shield an knee or dair.

or if anyone can expand on that situation more to what fox should do and what options falcon has.
 
D

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Atlanta
If a falcon actually gentleman's your shield you should just upsmash it at lower %s, and grab it at mid-higher %s.

More generally he can mixup how many jabs he does before doing some other action, or he can choose not to jab at all. Honestly CC grab beats all of falcon's jab mixups AFTER the first jab (meaning if he doesn't jab at all, he can dash away/bait your grab), unless he gentleman's (which will also beat your mashing CC grab).
 
Y

Youngling

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 31, 2010
Messages
332
whens the right time to shinegrab. seems like every time i shinegrab i couldve just as easily grabbed instead lol.

is it harder to escape drillshine grab than it is to escape drill grab?
 
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