KP17
Banned via Administration
how do you avoid falco's bair when you're pressuring him via platforms and hes on the ground?
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
Engo
Smash Ace
I'm not going to pretend I know anything about Luigi vs Fox form luigi's side but I'd recommend watching Abate and Eddy Mexico videos and seeing how they deal with fox. There's probably good footage from Abate last weekend at RoM7 for you to watch where he played DJNintendo and Hax's fox. Watch how they position them selves in neutral, how they get out of pressure, how they punish (Abate showed me that Luigi has solid punish game on a lot of characters especially spacies), how to edgeguard. These 4 points that come to my head that are foundations of every matchup so try and study those videos and see how those luigi players do it.
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percentages fox can typically chain throw fox ?
Also once ive started feeling comfortable enough to waveland on platforms/wavelanding while jumping through plat . Is it good to try getting away from a lvl 4 or 9 fox on yoshis while utilizing these tools as much as possible. (not trying to react but actually avoid trying to get hit by anything as a whole.
also dashdancing/wavedashing just out of jabs / down tilts / fmashes range vs a lvl 9 marth/fox? is this good defensive/movement training or are there better drills.
Also once ive started feeling comfortable enough to waveland on platforms/wavelanding while jumping through plat . Is it good to try getting away from a lvl 4 or 9 fox on yoshis while utilizing these tools as much as possible. (not trying to react but actually avoid trying to get hit by anything as a whole.
also dashdancing/wavedashing just out of jabs / down tilts / fmashes range vs a lvl 9 marth/fox? is this good defensive/movement training or are there better drills.
Bones0
Smash Legend
You can test the CG percents in training mode. The counter doesn't go up from consecutive grabs, but usmash and grab are both 7 frames so you can check when uthrow usmash combos and it should combo at the same percents as uthrow regrab. You can CG to higher percents when the opponent DIs further to either side, however, so you'll need a buddy or some talented feet-playing in order to test the combo percents for different DIs.
Also, that drill sounds as good as any other.
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Druggedfox
Smash Champion
1) You're asking people who probably (mostly) don't play PM seriously.
2) Fox probably wins every matchup in PM, despite getting gay death combo'd by all of them.
Also bones, I don't think that's entirely accurate. I can do upthrow upsmash on a fox up until 93%, personally. We both know a regrab doesn't work there. Upsmash has a completely different range.
Being able to chaingrab or not depends on their DI. On hard DI left or right, you can probably regrab fox until late 50%ish and falco until late 60%ish at the VERY least (probably a bit longer). On no DI you should just do a turn around uptilt around a bit lower than that % and just combo off that.
2) Fox probably wins every matchup in PM, despite getting gay death combo'd by all of them.
Also bones, I don't think that's entirely accurate. I can do upthrow upsmash on a fox up until 93%, personally. We both know a regrab doesn't work there. Upsmash has a completely different range.
Being able to chaingrab or not depends on their DI. On hard DI left or right, you can probably regrab fox until late 50%ish and falco until late 60%ish at the VERY least (probably a bit longer). On no DI you should just do a turn around uptilt around a bit lower than that % and just combo off that.
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Druggedfox
Smash Champion
UNRELATEDLY:
What is everyone's general gameplan/approach to the peach and falcon matchups? I mean, what is your goal, beginning from a neutral situation?
What is everyone's general gameplan/approach to the peach and falcon matchups? I mean, what is your goal, beginning from a neutral situation?
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
IMO Falcon is hard in the neutral game because of his speed and range (SH Nair covers enormous distance), however if you limit his space and get into close combat he feels kinda helpless, especially when forced into shield.
For Peach I'm fishing for the Floats. Most Peach players float recklessly and don't realize that they're a sitting duck in the air just waiting to get Nair'd or Usmash'd.
Also you obviously want to Laser to force her to approach/float. My major mistake in the neutral game against Peach is usually getting caught by Dash Attacks, need to work on that and realize that she doesn't really have that much options aside from DA or grab while she's on the ground.
For Peach I'm fishing for the Floats. Most Peach players float recklessly and don't realize that they're a sitting duck in the air just waiting to get Nair'd or Usmash'd.
Also you obviously want to Laser to force her to approach/float. My major mistake in the neutral game against Peach is usually getting caught by Dash Attacks, need to work on that and realize that she doesn't really have that much options aside from DA or grab while she's on the ground.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
So you focus on punishing her for setting up her float game, essentially?
As far as falcon goes, I think getting near falcon is actually really scary if he's willing to stay grounded and go for run up grab (Which no falcon player seems to want to do). If I stay far away I don't accomplish anything (I'm not particularly scared of falcon overshoots, I can react to them). I feel like vs falcon I have to rely on just a raw risk/reward game because fox hits hard on a more consistent basis. That's not a very comfortable game plan, though I actually think that's just how the matchup works >_>
As far as falcon goes, I think getting near falcon is actually really scary if he's willing to stay grounded and go for run up grab (Which no falcon player seems to want to do). If I stay far away I don't accomplish anything (I'm not particularly scared of falcon overshoots, I can react to them). I feel like vs falcon I have to rely on just a raw risk/reward game because fox hits hard on a more consistent basis. That's not a very comfortable game plan, though I actually think that's just how the matchup works >_>
Engo
Smash Ace
Random thoughts of my strategy vs peach. I'm not a high level player but writing them out is always useful for me and maybe you can get some perspective from someone else's strat.
- I stay just outside of dash attack range and dd in and out of that range while shooting some lasers to get her to approach. Then I usually dd grab the whiff keeping in mind that they'll usually dsmash or jab to cover their whiff so I stay out of range of that and then punish accordingly. In this type of neutral other openings I look for are when she lands from floats or right before she is going to begin a float.
-If they stay afloat for long periods of time I like to quickly cross up peach and back air behind under her. This is especially useful/safe for higher floats.If the peach is more patient and staying at a lower and more threatening float height that's when I start using the platforms to get her to switch her positioning/change her float height and then use speed to get under her or in a position to bair, not straight up camping but using platform movement to get her in a position I can react to and take advantage of.
-When getting cornered (if you let it get to that) you gotta mix it up between escaping through the platforms vertically or running quickly under her to cross her up. I prefer the latter strategy because i can go for a bair and being behind her is generally less intimidating. Peaches tend to cover the vertical escape more than anything.
- I stay just outside of dash attack range and dd in and out of that range while shooting some lasers to get her to approach. Then I usually dd grab the whiff keeping in mind that they'll usually dsmash or jab to cover their whiff so I stay out of range of that and then punish accordingly. In this type of neutral other openings I look for are when she lands from floats or right before she is going to begin a float.
-If they stay afloat for long periods of time I like to quickly cross up peach and back air behind under her. This is especially useful/safe for higher floats.If the peach is more patient and staying at a lower and more threatening float height that's when I start using the platforms to get her to switch her positioning/change her float height and then use speed to get under her or in a position to bair, not straight up camping but using platform movement to get her in a position I can react to and take advantage of.
-When getting cornered (if you let it get to that) you gotta mix it up between escaping through the platforms vertically or running quickly under her to cross her up. I prefer the latter strategy because i can go for a bair and being behind her is generally less intimidating. Peaches tend to cover the vertical escape more than anything.
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Ezzee
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2013
- Messages
- 187
How do I do an instant wall jump from the ledge like here
http://youtu.be/RyBYSSsuWUo?t=5m47s
I've done it a few times on accident, so I know it can't be that hard
http://youtu.be/RyBYSSsuWUo?t=5m47s
I've done it a few times on accident, so I know it can't be that hard
Bones0
Smash Legend
It's called the Doraki instant wall jump. There's detailed stuff explaining it somewhere I'm sure, but long story short, you grab the ledge while DJing as far into the wall as possible, then press back and jump at the same time. You can notice Fox DJ towards the wall in the clip. I think it happens because grabbing the ledge doesn't reset the walljump flag (or w/e it is), so if you grab the ledge while the flag is set to true (if you grab it while it's possible to walljump), it will allow you to walljump right as you drop from the ledge because the flag is still set.
Engo
Smash Ace
Honestly vs Peach I find the neutral is the hardest part. If you get the grab then upthrow up air and shark from underneath that's good enough punishment a lot of the time. If they smash di the upairs consistently then mix it up with bair and keep sharking. As much as peach players like to tell me uthrow upair doesn't true combo on peach(which is true), they always miss the di on the upthrow or don't consistently get the nairs to break out of the combo so it's effective like 80% of the time anyway which is more than enough for me.
However, when the average peach gets good at DIing the upthrows, breaking out upthrow upair with nairs, and sdi ing the utilt then te punish game in that matchup will get significantly trickier.
However, when the average peach gets good at DIing the upthrows, breaking out upthrow upair with nairs, and sdi ing the utilt then te punish game in that matchup will get significantly trickier.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
It's still a good positional advantage, and vastly in my favor. I say that, but I'm on the same boat of having issues when they actually DI the throw consistently behind fox. I should really just run towards and SH under her, baiting out an action, then uptilting. If she DJs or floats that's fine, I just need to react accordingly.
/...or something
/...or something
I am not familiar with how the peach-fox matchup goes down in terms of Fox's punish game on her, but could you do a running shine->wavedash->up-smash? I feel like that has less ways to be escaped and is still quit punishing.
Engo
Smash Ace
Yeah the positional advantage is huge but it does make it a lot harder. I know I personally get frustrated when I let a peach live over a hundred and she's doing a good job of not letting me land an upsmash or drillshine up smash. Back air kills even later.
When peach DI's the uthrow hard away(so much that she goes ontop of a side platform) I sometimes try to follow up with nair> utilt(into another if they don't di properly) or nair>usmash or maybe even nair>grab.
I've also seen Silentwolf throw peach forward at mid percents so when they DI away he dash attacks into nair or a platform tech chase. It's kinda cool and I guess something else to consider. He does it here http://youtu.be/q7GyAHntZ3g?t=3m23s. You might even be able to do it with back throw..
Also Tero pivot bair is probably faster than shineturn around bair. I do it sometimes and it's kinda nice sometimes although a bit tricky to do. I can't say I know that much about when the best times use it are. I'm tempted to use it like falco's bair sometimes but it's not as good in that regard nor is it auto cancelable(as far as I know).
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Engo
Smash Ace
If she DI's hard away around 80 isn't the upair just gonna miss or only get the first hit? Or she can break out with nair?
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Druggedfox
Smash Champion
You guys have to make sure to differentiate between DIing hard FORWARD and hard BEHIND fox. DI'ing behind fox on his upthrow makes it impossible to combo at certain % ranges for a lot of characters, not just peach. The turn around frames, first of all make it slower. I'm also pretty sure that KK and I agreed it has a legitimately different trajectory, though I don't have evidence of that.
anything kk says regarding DI is correct.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Fix'danything kk saysregarding DIis correct.
To avoid future confusion when someone says something I says is wrong.
Engo
Smash Ace
What a coincidence. I played and got 2 sets vs falcon and peach(the two mu's we were talking about recently) recorded at today's tournament. I win the former and lose the latter. I'll probably post them up whenever they get uploaded.
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Bones0
Smash Legend
Slide your thumb from Y to B so instead of 2 individual presses, it feels more like 1. It will take a bit of practice and the movement will feel awkward at first, but it will come with time.
What if, at some point in the future, you say that you were wrong about something?
/paradox
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I suppose, but I'm not worried.
hahahahahha
Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
Yeah, but you can only pivot during initial dash.
Engo
Smash Ace
My set vs the peach player is up and I played awful but I'll post it anyways once the falcon set gets uploaded too.
edit: Nevermind the uploader lost my set vs falcon -_- So here's my set vs the peach player. Playing pretty bad but god knows how I kept it so close. My fox forgot wd oos is a thing for some reason.. I'm VERY selective about my rolls usually but this tournament I was rolling like I was on fire..
Any feedback is appreciated as usual.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08YXPitMrf4
Admittedly I didn't follow what I posted in my earlier post very strictly. I was having trouble getting the laser game going to get whiff punishes so I relied a lot more on platform movement for openings
edit: Nevermind the uploader lost my set vs falcon -_- So here's my set vs the peach player. Playing pretty bad but god knows how I kept it so close. My fox forgot wd oos is a thing for some reason.. I'm VERY selective about my rolls usually but this tournament I was rolling like I was on fire..
Any feedback is appreciated as usual.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08YXPitMrf4
Admittedly I didn't follow what I posted in my earlier post very strictly. I was having trouble getting the laser game going to get whiff punishes so I relied a lot more on platform movement for openings
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PGH Carroll
Smash Master
Alright help me out here guys.. Ive lost sooooooo many fox dittos sets in the past couple months that its a problem. (dash dance dan, some *** fox, s1, vorrhese, CT zero, 1Der) and in ALL of them ive won game 1. I dont really have any other character i feel comfortable with in toureny so i always just take people game 3 to FoD aka Fountain of Pride.
Im gonna link all the recorded ones and feel free to point out the good and bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkrgtGRmZmM (CT Zero)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZnXWk0QF4o (S1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Oc7cFmAnQw (1der)
Im always Green btw
Im gonna link all the recorded ones and feel free to point out the good and bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkrgtGRmZmM (CT Zero)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZnXWk0QF4o (S1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Oc7cFmAnQw (1der)
Im always Green btw
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youre losing cuz youre playing green fox
Actually that's not true. You can pivot also from stand, walk and even crouch. I believe it's actually faster to do crouch pivot bair than shine turnaround bair. I think pivot bairs would be useful versus aerial opponents, because rising bair isn't that good versus shields.
Engo
Smash Ace
Something to keep in mind that I often overlook myself is to remember to crouch cancel vs nair happy foxes in neutral(at low percents). It makes them actually have to think about their approaches which can make it so they're not just all over your face all the time. I only watched the match vs Zero but he was getting away with doing pretty much nothing except nair and nair shines at any percent and that shouldn't happen.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I'm pretty sure that's all wrong... I think standing, walking, and crouching have turnaround frames as opposed to a singular pivot frame. You can interrupt the turnaround frames with most stuff iirc. I still don't think that means crouch turnaround bair is faster than shine turnaround bair. I couldn't find the frame data for how long it takes to run cancel, but I think it's ~8-9 frames which is longer than the entire shine-turnaround process.
I recently noticed, that if you smash input turnaround in anywhere and jump the next frame, you will turn around and jump. However, if you do regular turnaround and immediately jump, the jump cancels the turnaround. Therefore I think that you can indeed pivot turnaround in walk, stand, or crouch.
Edit: You're right, the initial crouch is indeed quite long.
Edit: You're right, the initial crouch is indeed quite long.
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Wind
Smash Cadet
Whenever I approach, I intend on doing something such as dair -> l-cancel -> shine or nair -> l-cancel -> shine. However, before I can get a shine off, I get shield grabbed, a lot more than I want to. I'm losing games because when I approach the enemy on shield, something is wrong with my approach, and a grab on fox can often be something like a 0 -> death. Can anyone help me think of reasons why I'm getting shield grabbed so often? I think I'm hitting all of my l-cancels, and I want to tighten up my game. Thanks!
focus on the fast falling of the aerial and throwing ur aerial out later.
A common misconception with spacies are that as long as you got tech skill you can just throw out nairs or dairs and its fine even if your opponent shields it.
If your aerial hits the opponents shield early, there will be a gap big enough to grab before your shine comes out. If your aerial hits closer to the ground, there will be less time before you can shine. Late aerials can be bad if the opponent doesn't shield, so it's just mindgames.
Wind
Smash Cadet
Thanks to you and Chab, this is something that I figured but I was getting shield grabbed so often that I thought it was something else. I'll try to be more conscious of it. Also Zoler it was nice talking to you in MDZ's twitch chat the other day too ;P
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Well, if you aerial high all the time and your opponent is good at hitting the small gap, of course you'll get shield grabbed all the time.
AppleAppleAZ
Smash Journeyman
So I'm not entirely sure where to post this, but I recently switched to maining fox (like this week) and I'm looking to have my scrubby fox critiqued.
There's still some stuff I can't yet do that I should do that will get me to punish harder like drill shine up smashes and such, but if there's any flaws that you guys see I'd love some feedback.
Fox vs peach
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LOrhv8dCYUc
Fox vs ganon (lolzzz)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr3dgt5urn0
Pardon the mobile links, and thank you in advance.
There's still some stuff I can't yet do that I should do that will get me to punish harder like drill shine up smashes and such, but if there's any flaws that you guys see I'd love some feedback.
Fox vs peach
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LOrhv8dCYUc
Fox vs ganon (lolzzz)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr3dgt5urn0
Pardon the mobile links, and thank you in advance.