Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[RaynEX]

At lower percents the jab reset forces stand, its the crux of the thunder's combo. Holding down does nothing to prevent that (afaik)

 

[Zoler]

I'm talking about the uair, the jab is irrelevant. You DI the uair down so you CC it (not true CC though). This only works at really low percents. Unfortunately my TV is still at the BEAST venue so I can't test it but I'm pretty sure about this.

 

[eplb]

I've some questions concerning the link mu ; i know it quite ok I guess, but I've few questons regardless
Is uthrow uair a real combo ? I think it is if no di, but I really don't know.
How to edgeguard ? Is this kinda like samus, where you maybe can shine after the hook has been shot but not sweetspotted ? Can I CC the upb and shine ? Don't know if he can really sweetspot with it.
Best stages ? I play a "campy" fox, meaning that vs characters like samus/link/doc/etc. i'll just shoot lasers and spam backairs/safe pressure so I make a lot of use of the top platform, but I however find that fd is a good stage, yoshi being too small, fod being fod, and the others being pretty ok.
Can he upb oos if my nair shine pressure is on point ? I think not ; what about nair shine grab ?

Thanks.

 

[Charlesz]

Hey Raynex, any ideas on how to stall out my opponents 2 second invincibility after he dies? I'm often put into very bad situations after killing a decent opponent,

 

[JRC LSS]

I don't main fox, but I've seen a lot of vids of foxes and I've never seen anyone shine -> jc grab on a shielding opponent. They usually just jump away and to continue pressure. Does shine to grab not actually work? Or do people actually do this, and I just haven't noticed?

 

[Druggedfox]

Shinegrab is good and people just don't do it enough.

You can get out of it with buffered rolls and spotdodges. Also if your shine is stale, you're vulnerable to being grabbed in between the shine and the grab.

That said, its still very good, and fox has no real business doing significant shield pressure anyway.

 

[dRevan64]

Shinegrab is good and people just don't do it enough.

You can get out of it with buffered rolls and spotdodges. Also if your shine is stale, you're vulnerable to being grabbed in between the shine and the grab.

That said, its still very good, and fox has no real business doing significant shield pressure anyway.

Will shine OOS beat shinegrab?

 

[Druggedfox]

Yea, it will.

 

[JRC LSS]

Shinegrab is good and people just don't do it enough.

You can get out of it with buffered rolls and spotdodges. Also if your shine is stale, you're vulnerable to being grabbed in between the shine and the grab.

That said, its still very good, and fox has no real business doing significant shield pressure anyway.

Good stuff, thanks

 

[Stijn]

After I shine and they miss the tech, a lot of people do neutral get up > spot dodge. How do I punish this best? Just running USmash?

 

[Oskurito]

You could charge the upsmash and wait right after the spot dodge, or you could full jump into a falling uair followed by more uairs or uptilts/upsmash or even a grab depending on %

 

[RaynEX]

After I shine and they miss the tech, a lot of people do neutral get up > spot dodge. How do I punish this best? Just running USmash?

Why usmash for a single hit when you can grab instead and get a fat combo? Tighten your up your timing and you will be able to punish neutral get-up before the spotdodge even becomes an issue. Whether its usmash or any other attack, move selection / punishing is dependent on percents, match-up and positioning. Pick the move you think is best for the job at that moment.

Hey Raynex, any ideas on how to stall out my opponents 2 second invincibility after he dies? I'm often put into very bad situations after killing a decent opponent,

The popular Azen lightshield will always be effective. Roll to the edge of any platform and buffer a Z lightshield, and just chill. If your opponent makes physical contact with your massive shield, you fall off safely and can attack as you drop with bair. If they read this and try grab you, wavedash OOS to safety or roll / jump. I find this pretty foolproof with proper reactions.

M2k's method of evasion is also very good. DD around till they drop down from their fresh stock, get to the stage's edge, and stall once or twice. M2k will habitually run to the edge, SH bair with Marth to turn around, and fastfall grab it. He'll do low double jump re-grabs until he's comfortable then waveland / roll / ledge-hop onto the stage with invincibility. He does it with every character and its proven to be an effective, enduring strategy. Substitute the re-grab with Firefox stalling and you're good to go.

It's important to note that random techskill between stocks is largely a waste of time. In friendlies you should focus on not getting tagged post-kill because you need to be good at it in tournament matches. Intelligent evasion is a refinable skill that you can improve, so whenever I see people doing quintuple shines I just don't get it. I think the key is to develop an escape strategy or route that isn't confined by a defensive mindset. In other words, evasion that still allows for a counter-attack. If you're preoccupied with running, you'll either corner yourself or miss your opportunity to strike. Counter-attacking the moment invincibility is up is crucial. This is how people make those 140% last stock comebacks without getting frazzled.

 

[Bones0]

I think the lightshielding on plats is great, but you can't roll to the edge of the plat to do it because you won't be able to attack as you slide off. You have to walk to the edge so you are facing it. Also be careful about multihit attacks. Fox in particular can uair so that the first hit knocks you off and the second hits.

 

[RaynEX]

Well, you can still attack its just your bair might be misplaced. If your opponent is falling with you dair / nair could substitute just fine. The real solution is to dash attack towards the edge of the platform so you're facing off it, then buffer the Z shield. You're back would be facing the aggressor for an easy bair as you're falling.

Multihit attacks break this strategy if you sit there: Fox's uair, Marth's nair and a few other moves, you're right. That's why you need have tight reactions and quickly determine what you're opponent is going for. You have so many options off the platform and out of your shield, its hard to go wrong.

 

[Bones0]

Well, you can still attack its just your bair might be misplaced. If your opponent is falling with you dair / nair could substitute just fine. The real solution is to dash attack towards the edge of the platform so you're facing off it, then buffer the Z shield. You're back would be facing the aggressor for an easy bair as you're falling.

Multihit attacks break this strategy if you sit there: Fox's uair, Marth's nair and a few other moves, you're right. That's why you need have tight reactions and quickly determine what you're opponent is going for. You have so many options off the platform and out of your shield, its hard to go wrong.

If you slide off of a plat in shield with your back to the edge, you can't attack right away. You go into tumble that can't be cancelled immediately (this is why people always die when they lightshield an attack on Randall).

 

[RaynEX]

Ah that's right, I forgot about that actually. Good lookin out, and super important to note

 

[20xxFox]

How does one up throw > up air on characters like Peach, Jiggs, etc. Do you attack with Z+Up, A+Up, or C stick? Also, do you tap jump or jump with Y/X? I'm assuming everyone jumps with Y/X to get full mobility, but idk about C stick or Up+A/Z. When i c stick I don't get the move out in time and when i use Up, i always end up forward airing (although that can be worked on for sure).

 

[RaynEX]

I personally use Y for the first jump, then Up on control stick + up on cstick for the double jump + uair. I think M2k's claw method of uthrow uair is the best, I've been trying to learn it. Index finger on Y and thumb on cstick supposedly gives you superior control. Any method is fine really. I think one of the more popular methods is X/Y twice and hit up+A. meh

 

[20xxFox]

I personally use Y for the first jump, then Up on control stick + up on cstick for the double jump + uair. I think M2k's claw method of uthrow uair is the best, I've been trying to learn it. Index finger on Y and thumb on cstick supposedly gives you superior control. Any method is fine really. I think one of the more popular methods is X/Y twice and hit up+A. meh

Thanks, I'll give those methods a try although switching your grip from a JC grab to index on Y and thumb on C stick seems a little hard. I'll practice the first one

 

[20xxFox]

In this video, how is Mango doing shine up smashes? I see him pressing buttons rapidly but can't really tell what he's doing. Is there some technique to do it or is he just pressing down+B -> Up+A and mashing the A button just because?

here's the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNcEuGB1Vbc

he gets a shine u smash to take Ice's second stock game 1 and last stock game 2.

 

[Bones0]

In this video, how is Mango doing shine up smashes? I see him pressing buttons rapidly but can't really tell what he's doing. Is there some technique to do it or is he just pressing down+B -> Up+A and mashing the A button just because?

here's the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNcEuGB1Vbc

he gets a shine u smash to take Ice's second stock game 1 and last stock game 2.

He just shined, jump cancelled the shine, and then usmashed during jumpsquat.

 

[Chab]

In this video, how is Mango doing shine up smashes? I see him pressing buttons rapidly but can't really tell what he's doing. Is there some technique to do it or is he just pressing down+B -> Up+A and mashing the A button just because?

here's the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNcEuGB1Vbc

he gets a shine u smash to take Ice's second stock game 1 and last stock game 2.

ill try it out tomorrow. but i would think its something like shine --> up on control stick and c stick at the same time

 

[RaynEX]

Thanks, I'll give those methods a try although switching your grip from a JC grab to index on Y and thumb on C stick seems a little hard. I'll practice the first one

After you've grabbed your opponent you have a bit of time to switch positions and uthrow. It doesn't have to be that quick, actually.

 

[JmanJ]

What should you do vs Sheik when you get a grab at various %'s?

It seems like at low percents an usmash/utilt may be guaranteed, and at high percents an uair is. But what about mid %s? Is something always guaranteed off an uthrow in the matchup? Thanks guys.

 

[Druggedfox]

At 0 uptilt is guaranteed, and so is nair. After that everything is a mixup, but there are a lot of high reward options that can deal with what sheik can do. In general sheik is actually *really* good at mashing jump out of fox combos, but this leaves her very vulnerable if fox doesn't commit too hard to a follow up. For example if around 10% you upthrow and she doesn't DI, lets say you uptilt. She can either not jump, and get combo *****, or jump... but then your uptilt has practically no lag, and you can chase her down really easily (with upair/bair or grab her when she hits the ground).

If an upthrow nair hits, you can do variations on nair-->uptilt and nair-->grab into whatever fox nonsense you feel like doing. Depending on her DI on the nair, she can jump out before you get a true combo, but as said before, this tends to leave her pretty vulnerable.

At more mid % you can do the typical fox mixup of doing upair vs bair off upthrow (though upair wont combo at mid % all the time). If they DI right on your throw, and you upair, they can DI all the way to the left and make it pretty difficult to follow up on. If they do that and you bair though, you destroy them off your combo (this is a reverse bair, you're hitting with your face/the front of your body) with an uptilt, another bair, or a regrab.

Fox has two main combo paths though, which can essentially be summarized as "hit them up a lot" and "hit them towards the edge a lot". If you can get a good "up move" string going on sheik, you usually get enough damage that its definitely a good idea. If you're not sure that you can, doing horizontal combos is still great (And often better) because if you ever get sheik off the stage its pretty much a stock for you.

There are some more details, but that's the gist of it.

Edit: As far as footage goes, if you wanna see people do it, watching kirbykaze vs the good canadian fox players is probably a good bet.

 

[Tero.]

I'm searching for the best videos to learn specific Match-ups (basically the most common ones: Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Falcon, Puff, ICs). For Peach the latest Leffen vs Armada videos are probably the best, for Puff probably Mango vs Hbox from EVO? also newer M2K Videos against Hbox? Someone help me out a bit and link me to matches where the Fox plays the Matchup extremely well.

 

[Chab]

I'm searching for the best videos to learn specific Match-ups (basically the most common ones: Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Falcon, Puff, ICs). For Peach the latest Leffen vs Armada videos are probably the best, for Puff probably Mango vs Hbox from EVO? also newer M2K Videos against Hbox? Someone help me out a bit and link me to matches where the Fox plays the Matchup extremely well.

I would love to see that too. What I think is hard with this type of thing is that many players have different styles and sometimes its not the matchup that really matters, its the player vs player aspect.

 

[Druggedfox]

Don't have time to go find a bunch of relevant videos but I think it's important to note that there's enough variation in playstyles (most people aren't playing optimally) that watching multiple people play the matchup would be super beneficial, and look at different aspects of it. Fox dittos are a great example of this, since I think a southern style fox ditto is super different from a wc style fox ditto, to the point that the way the matchup is played isn't even that comparable. Then you could take what you learned from watching those two groups play intra-region, and watch how a representative from each plays against someone inter-region.

For marth, I think watching old jman videos would be really good for seeing how to beat bad marth things, and generally play solidly. Watching mango vs marth on the other hand would teach you how to play the more aggressive side of the matchup. Both parts are super valuable.

Or for puff I think that, while mango is obviously really good at the matchup, he teaches you a lot more about catching puff's air movement and getting under her, and a lot less about how fox can use his ground movement to out maneuver puff or how to platform camp her. M2K would teach you what habits/patterns from puff are punishable and how to avoid her when racking up damage.

etc etc etc

Edit: That said I still think there's a better/correct way to play the matchup, but people don't all view the game that way, so watching people play the matchup (when they don't even think a concept of correctness is valuable) won't be very enlightening from a more general matchup perspective. In situations like that, you can learn a lot about situational/detailed aspects of the matchup though, so there's still some benefit to be had.

 

[l will find peace]

there are a lot of good "how to play this matchup" videos from the biweekly socal tournament called SSS or something?

their foxes especially do things very precisely.

 

[Jim Morrison]

In this video, how is Mango doing shine up smashes? I see him pressing buttons rapidly but can't really tell what he's doing. Is there some technique to do it or is he just pressing down+B -> Up+A and mashing the A button just because?

here's the vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNcEuGB1Vbc

he gets a shine u smash to take Ice's second stock game 1 and last stock game 2.

You literally press down B and then you press up A
Up cancels the shine and charges the smash as he's jumping.
That's only if you wanna charge it.
Mashing up on both the Control stick and the C-stick is for the instant U-smash which is a lot more applicable and probably what Mango did.

 

[Chab]

there are a lot of good "how to play this matchup" videos from the biweekly socal tournament called SSS or something?

their foxes especially do things very precisely.

SSS (Super Smash Sundays)

 

[20xxFox]

You literally press down B and then you press up A
Up cancels the shine and charges the smash as he's jumping.
That's only if you wanna charge it.
Mashing up on both the Control stick and the C-stick is for the instant U-smash which is a lot more applicable and probably what Mango did.

Oh so you can up smash out of shine the same way you up smash OoS, by inputting up on control and c stick?

 

[RaynEX]

Oh so you can up smash out of shine the same way you up smash OoS, by inputting up on control and c stick?

Yup. Its the exact same situation. Jump out of shield = jump out of shine therefore the same JC options are available to you.

 

[Bones0]

Oh so you can up smash out of shine the same way you up smash OoS, by inputting up on control and c stick?

Technically, you can't usmash out of shield/shine. What you CAN do is JUMP out of shield/shine, and you can usmash/grab during jumpsquat frames. Hopefully that makes it clearer what steps to execute.

 

[yoloswag420blazeit]

At low / mid percents:

Thunders into usmash is subpar because it isn't an optimal punish that rewards you with continued follow-ups 100% of the time. If your opponent d.i.s the usmash away you don't get a guaranteed anything, just a techchase. If you're close to an edge, their d.i. might even end your combo altogether. Fox is at his best against fastfallers when he lands a grab. Everything off uthrow is incredible, and landing a single one can be game changer. From 0-35% I'm a huge advocate of thunders > grab for these reasons. Further, Utilt / nair and other such follow-ups after uthrow give you more damage & combo opportunities than just a raw usmash.

If at any point your thunders takes your opponent to a stage's edge, double shine after the jab reset. Or do a low nair and double shine for more lift, better send, and more damage. The edge-guard off the doubleshine trajectory is usually very easy too.

At higher percents:

Jab reset is no longer reliable because of the possibility of buffer techrolls, so the optimal thing to do is react and DD grab. This entire situation can be sorted out with some patience and decent reactions. When I land drillshines / random shines at 50% - higher, these have been my staples over the years (in order of practicality):

- Drillshine > angle control stick for a shorter wavedash OOS > react to grounded options with JC grab.
(a shorter waveshine ensures you aren't too close and get tagged with get-up attacks. You can wait for it to whiff and JC grab it, but you're also close enough that you can react and catch backrolls or neutral get-ups)

- Drillshine > full length wavedash > dash & shield
(point blank shielding allows you to shield-grab get-up attacks and neutral get-up options, but also wavedash OOS to cover techs in either direction)

NEAR EDGE

- Drillshine > full length wavedash > down/angled Ftilt
(this is a true combo and just works wonders, old school Eggm tricksy)



Aside from these, use Melee's freeform system to adapt and create your own suitable alternatives. Techniques that cover multiple options are incredible, so keep the aforementioned in your backpocket, but feel free to deviate. The best smash players are the ones that think outside of the box.

RaynEX, the homie comin thru with the goods. I really like these options, people always say just uthrow->usmash but this is the real ****. Imma make dis my bread and butter...I'll get fancy later but I need to get this all down first.

Come to some of the SWEET Ann Arbor tourneys in March so I can play you in some friendlies, I think KK said he was gonna come too.

 

[RaynEX]

I'll absolutely try to make it out to the next one. I've been playing KK nonstop to get back in shape. If you're heading out to RoM maybe I'll catch you there?

 

[Tomacawk]

fox boards, long time no talk, but i have a dilemma
one of my main draws to fox originally was that he allows me to play aggressively, and he allows a level of creativity and expression that is seemingly unparalleled by the rest of the cast. furthermore, at that time, there was a lot of unpioneered tech and a lot of room for innovation in general. even the best foxes were still under-utilizing the character

now, everybody and their mother plays fox, and even though i am at a point where i consider myself a developed and strong fox player, i don't feel special like i used to. people have played fox for so long that everybody can now do most of the formerly unique tech skill tricks. tons of people abuse what is strong about fox, play super lame, and give real fox mains a bad rep. i feel ashamed now when new friends ask me what character i play. i've been lying to my parents, saying that i've been playing marth for the past year.

and it's hard to admit it, but i've been sneaking peach when the streets is sleep. you guys couldn't believe how much tech skill this character has. and that feeling where i just hold my breathe, clench my butthole, and spam cc dsmash until it works....it's like my first waveshine usmash. ive been playing zelda, too. having 4 moves on a character is very liberating...accepting that limitation creates lots of room to innovate with what you can use in ways that break the predictability.

so fox players what are YOU doing in 2014 to differentiate yourself from all the other bozos playing lame?

 

[KendallJackson]

i've been lying to my parents, saying that i've been playing marth for the past year.

I laughed out loud.

 

[RaynEX]

so fox players what are YOU doing in 2014 to differentiate yourself from all the other bozos playing lame?

The only thing one can do: become the superior Fox and crush them into the dust. This contrived "individuality" people strive for through (supposedly) new tech and flashy combos / techskill is artificial and subject to limitations. It could be 10 Foxes or 100000 Foxes, its ultimately irrelevant if you're one of the few that can actually push the character to victory when it matters most and under the most strenuous conditions.

You differentiate yourself from all the other bozos by being better than them. Dashdance better, edge-guard better, learn more MU specific strategies, grind PRACTICAL techskill, don't be a slave to your impulses, intelligently assess risk/reward situations, don't flail around like an idiot when you don't know what to do (especially on shields, near edges), etc.

I used to really care about this whole idea of differentiating myself from the army of Foxes, way back in the day. Now I'm simply better than the vast majority. Trust me, that's much more important than being different.

 

[dkuo]

becoming relevant is a good way to differentiate yourself

edit - sniped by raynex ~_~