Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[azianraven]

I always seem to have a hard time versus Falco. Whenever I get a shine off, grab, etc. that knocks falco down, I get caught by tech shine a bunch and if I wait for it, falco either resets position or he gets me in dair, another shine, and other falco shenanigans.

I'm pretty sure if I read the falco's tech/roll/standard get up, I should be able to grab or punish him before he can shine right after any of those options.

If it's a timing thing, what are some good hints or indicators as to when to punish if I have the read? If there is no way to beat the tech shine (assuming the falco shines at the first possible frame available), what are the options I should exercise in this situation?

I have other problems with the falco matchup, but this is the one that irritates me the most because I can usually react fast enough to follow where the falco is going (since fox is ridiculously quick), even if I don't guess correctly. It's the most glaring thing that stops me from maintaining control of falco when I can get him off of me with a shine or catch him with an initial grab.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

I always seem to have a hard time versus Falco. Whenever I get a shine off, grab, etc. that knocks falco down, I get caught by tech shine a bunch and if I wait for it, falco either resets position or he gets me in dair, another shine, and other falco shenanigans.

I'm pretty sure if I read the falco's tech/roll/standard get up, I should be able to grab or punish him before he can shine right after any of those options.

If it's a timing thing, what are some good hints or indicators as to when to punish if I have the read? If there is no way to beat the tech shine (assuming the falco shines at the first possible frame available), what are the options I should exercise in this situation?

I have other problems with the falco matchup, but this is the one that irritates me the most because I can usually react fast enough to follow where the falco is going (since fox is ridiculously quick), even if I don't guess correctly. It's the most glaring thing that stops me from maintaining control of falco when I can get him off of me with a shine or catch him with an initial grab.

I have this issue too, it's ****ing ridiculous how much better Falcos tech frame data is compared. Solution is to space a grab well so that shine doesn't hit you. It will come out though

 

[unknown522]

Just do it better. It's the only way.

If you think you're going to be too slow on the tech chase, then either try to wait out the defensive option with your DD, or just standing there. Or you can try to clink/beat out the shine/other move with your Upsmash or something.

Or even put out an aerial if you have a hard time tech chasing (u-air/drill/etc)

 

[omgwtfToph]

Yeah aerial is a good choice. If you execute properly you can even time your uair/drill to hit the tech in place, and still have time to punish side techs (or be in an advantageous position). Similar to how Falcon can knee a tech in place read and have time to grab side techs.

Or you can do dat Sheik **** and space outside the tech-in-place shine (i.e. max-range your grab)

 

[Jim Morrison]

Falco's shine is smaller than Fox's. You can set yourself in the position where you can just stand still when he techs, his shine can't hit you and you can **** on him with your D-tilt. If you know the Falco is just going to tech shine, don't immedeately go for it, just do a very very quick dash dance and N-air in.

EDIT: This answer applies to anything really where you have to react to an opponent and his patterns.
-Just wait-
Waiting is without a doubt the best move Fox has while pressuring an opponent. Waiting allows you to react.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Also, I forgot to mention, I ****ing love "I have a hard time with Falco" posts. They seem to pop up roughly once a week, and they remind me of the struggle that we all share by treading this mortal coil: the struggle of fighting Falco.

 

[Divinokage]

Also, I forgot to mention, I ****ing love "I have a hard time with Falco" posts. They seem to pop up roughly once a week, and they remind me of the struggle that we all share by treading this mortal coil: the struggle of fighting Falco.

But you guys play Fox and you guys are complaining about Falco being hard... The matchup is almost even. I cannot call that a real struggle.

 

[omgwtfToph]

WOW KAGE WHY DO YOU EVEN POST HERE go eat your bagel

 

[SFAT]

I'm really, really, really liking SFAT's play as of late. He looks better each time I see him.

Hey! Thanks dude.


): Falco is hard.

 

[unknown522]

WOW KAGE WHY DO YOU EVEN POST HERE go eat your bagel

it's croissant man! Get your **** right!

God!

 

[omgwtfToph]

^ No dude, this morning, he posted on fb that he was eating a bagel. I know my ****

 

[PGH Carroll]

Oh ****. Facebook nogga.
Go back to liking pictures of fat ugly girls you went to high school with!

 

[unknown522]

^ No dude, this morning, he posted on fb that he was eating a bagel. I know my ****

haha. I saw that on FB too this morning

 

[Divinokage]

WOW KAGE WHY DO YOU EVEN POST HERE go eat your bagel

Falco vs Fox MM for saying that!! Ill show you struggle!

 

[omgwtfToph]

LOL ok Kage. Which one of us is Fox and which one's Falco? I'll do either >_>

In all seriousness I hope the bagel was delicious.

 

[Brookman]

I'm so good at this game and I don't even play it.

 

[chillindude829]

so who regularly techchases fastfallers with short hop uair instead of jc usmash?

definitely sets up followups better and gives u potential for a way longer combo than just usmashing. obviously a little tricky to execute since u have to make sure u get the 2nd hit placed right where they land, but ive started using this pretty regularly, especially against missed techs (a little harder to react to a techroll with a sh uair but still possible, although in those situations i tend to go for jc usmash)

 

[Brookman]

when the situation presents it self.. . . fox has hella options.

 

[Bones0]

I started using SH uairs after Thunder's combo, so I will try to remember covering regular missed techs and tech in place with it. If they are on a platform, maybe you could do something like falling uair on their tech, and then cover the tech roll to either side with utilt and dtilt.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I started using SH uairs after Thunder's combo

I've been doing this on Falco's. At ~30-50%, it sets up for so much good stuff, and also looks hella sexy. U-air is a good move, but for Tech chasing I find it a bit iffy because the hitbox is so small horizontally, it requires very good placing, as well as timing, not to mention not getting hit by a get-up attack. I'll stick to N-air in those cases.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I grab because I'm boring

 

[omgwtfToph]

Pros of SH uair:
+ sets up better combos (at least at certain percents)
+ doesn't leave you open to a huge punish (like usmash/grab do) if you miss

Cons of SH uair:
- can't be done on reaction (since you have to SH first and uair on the way down); you have to predict a tech or missed tech

 

[Divinokage]

Umm.. but I can always react to missed tech easily, you should be able to punish that immediately.

 

[Strong Badam]

he's talking about shine -> wavedash -> jab reset, toph. so no reaction, just a decision.

 

[Bones0]

Well Chillin was originally talking about all tech options and mentioned how it's harder to hit tech rolls since you will probably just have to read.

That being said, I think given the situation you should be able to cover the tech rolls with something if your uair misses because you guessed wrong. Side-B? lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sometimes you can pull a Falcon / Marth and SHFFL uair at their landing spot to cover the non-tech & tech stand AND still dash JC grab the tech roll if you miss. Because Fox is cheap and aerials have lower lag than ground moves. Happens on platforms with reasonable frequency. Positioning on flatland can be somewhat restrictive though.

 

[azianraven]

Just do it better. It's the only way.

If you think you're going to be too slow on the tech chase, then either try to wait out the defensive option with your DD, or just standing there. Or you can try to clink/beat out the shine/other move with your Upsmash or something.

Or even put out an aerial if you have a hard time tech chasing (u-air/drill/etc)

So if I throw an aerial following the tech chase or standing tech, falco's shine wouldn't outprioritize or beat out my aerial?

Also, I don't know how many players (let alone falcos) do this, but I play against a falco who buffers his spotdodge, sometimes doing it two to three times. Do you guys find that difficult to punish or is it a simple thing to beat since spotdodges leave you vulnerable regardless?

 

[omgwtfToph]

he's talking about shine -> wavedash -> jab reset, toph. so no reaction, just a decision.

i was responding to chillindude br0

Umm.. but I can always react to missed tech easily, you should be able to punish that immediately.

you can't wait to see if someone misses a tech or techs in place AND THEN begin your SH. if you choose to punish no tech/tech in place on reaction then aerial is out of the question

but like KK said two posts above this one, if you punish w/ SH aerial on prediction you can often cover side techrolls with reaction (JC grab)

 

[Lovage]

uair > usmash in like 90% of combo situations, but choosing usmash is only slightly worse and a lot "safer" so it's still a good pick

prioritize using uair if it's on FD or you're fighting a falco

 

[unknown522]

So if I throw an aerial following the tech chase or standing tech, falco's shine wouldn't outprioritize or beat out my aerial?

Also, I don't know how many players (let alone falcos) do this, but I play against a falco who buffers his spotdodge, sometimes doing it two to three times. Do you guys find that difficult to punish or is it a simple thing to beat since spotdodges leave you vulnerable regardless?

Because shine has low range. They would either have to get pretty lucky to hone through your aerial. If you're timing your tech chases correctly, they shouldn't even be able to shine at all.


Also, multi spot-dodges are easy to punish if the opponent has a habit of doing it. Both Raynex and I used to do it a lot when we were bad back in 2004/2005, and even then I would punish him a lot for doing that

 

[Proskater]

Also, I don't know how many players (let alone falcos) do this, but I play against a falco who buffers his spotdodge, sometimes doing it two to three times. Do you guys find that difficult to punish or is it a simple thing to beat since spotdodges leave you vulnerable regardless?

Down air has multiple hitboxes, so you can use it if you are not too good at the specific punish timing for the buffered spot dodge. It's really just something that you have to get used to though. Dair -> grab

 

[PGH Carroll]

Best way to punish a sheik that makes it back to the stage when your on the ledge at low percents. drilling from the edge always gets SDI'd.. :^(

 

[ShroudedOne]

I'm sure you have enough time to jump from the ledge > uair/grab/upsmash/utilt/bair if she lands on the main stage. If she lands on a platform, then uair/bair/grab/something, lol.

I really don't understand why Foxes keep doing dair from the ledge. It's almost always awful (except against Peach in a few specific instances maybe).

 

[Lovage]

if ur gonna drill from the ledge they either have to be close to the ledge or you need to time your dair late so only a few hits connect.

if drill isn't looking good and/they are too far you need to waveland on and do sumthing

@shroudedone u r a noob he's talking about when sheik is recovering onstage why wouldnt u want to drill that

 

[ShroudedOne]

Because of SDI...?

I dunno, you're right in that you can time it to counteract SDI, but I feel like you can get punishes that are just as strong on her recovery without drilling.

I guess what I mean is that most Foxes use dair from the ledge horribly. In the hands of a better Fox, it's probably ****.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Meh there are much gayer things than drill to edgeguard Sheik

 

[PGH Carroll]

certain sheiks i play.. lol
when they barely make it to the ledge or skip it with up B.
when i drill them they SDI the drill to the edge so it kinda flip flops the situation.

 

[Bones0]

If you wanted to be mindgames, you could LH like you are going to bair them off-stage, then drill instead, then their super hard survival DI will cross you up and you can just grab, usmash, turn around utilt, etc.

/TheoryBros.

 

[omgwtfToph]

People of like every skill level suck at SDI'ing drill very often for some reason LOL.

that said I am a huge proponent of just doing a normal getup from the ledge to punish sheik landing onstage

it's 100% foolproof a lot of the time

edit: but yeah if the sheik is recovering and needs to up-B at low-mid %'s I always just force the sheik to land onstage (With the ledge getup) and then start a combo, generally with waveshine or grab (or waveshine into grab)

 

[Wenbobular]

If Sheik does the poof landing right on the ledge it makes the stand harder to time which is really annoying