Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[crush]

LH onto stage a lil bit past her -> reverse laser right b4 u land -> tipped hitbox down tilt -> dash forward full hop mid air double shine her ***** *** ( turn around at the end of the second shine and u should be close enough to just fall and grab the ledge it depends)

 

[omgwtfToph]

ok javi

 

[Bones0]

Anyone wanna give me advice for transitioning between campy-laser-Fox and rushin'-your-***-down-Fox? Watching some of my vids, it seems like I laser a few times, get some good %, but then I'm trapped at the edge. I'd rather not have to just get on the ledge and ledgedash through people every time. lol I'm thinking about primarily vs. Peach, if that matters. Also, any specific baits that I can use while being aggro to make them think I'm backing off to laser more would be helpful. All that really comes to mind is to just do a quick dash away and RSHL and hope they chase me.

 

[unknown522]

Man. Edgeguarding sheik is so gay

 

[omgwtfToph]

Gay like it's too easy?

Edit: Bones0, literally just watch jman videos

 

[unknown522]

Yeah pretty much. You may miss once in a while, but yeah

 

[Brookman]

anyone care to offer some critique to my friend's fox??

vs. marth

vs. sheik

vs. falcon

vs. falcon 2(??)

vs. fox

Come on, you know you want to!!

 

[azianraven]

I only watched the falcon matches since that's the matchup I'm most comfortable with.

Anyway, here's what I would work on if I was him.

1. Recover better. Brother just goes down south all the time and doesn't even try to sweetspot. Fox should almost never be recovering below the edge unless he sweetspots and even then, it's so easy to grab the edge before fox. He gets edgeguarded/hogged way too easily, especially if he doesn't sweetspot. Try coming back to stage faster with Side-B or firefox. This was the cause of his death many times.

2. If the opponent ever puts up his shield, don't attack the shield. Putting up shield says "grab me please" . Practically every time falcon had his shield up initially, fox straight up would Up-smash or nair or whatever to the shield instead of grab. Even shine -> JC grab would be fine.

3. Work more on tech skill and control with character. He got stuck in shine, couldn't recover right, did full jumps when it seemed like it was not his intention.

Those were the really glaring things to me. I have more, but I think this is fine for now.

3+. Also, ffs falcon is so easy to edgeguard. There are times where falcon gets back on and that shouldn't really ever happen. F-smash alone beats the **** out of falcon unless he recovers too high or low enough to sweetspot the ledge. In which case, you either see where he goes and bair/f-smash/u-smash/appropriate move or just WD back edgehog, respectively. Honestly, as long as the fox pays attention, it is very hard for falcon to recover back due to the nature of his recovery. (Shines are on point though. Give him that)

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

If you know the Falco is just going to tech shine, don't immedeately go for it, just do a very very quick dash dance and N-air in.

Inb4 crouch cancel shine =/

Can you really uair Falco when he techs in place? His shine always hits me before the uair connects. Dair is useless too, because he just crouch cancels and shines that ****

I guess I such at l canceling then

 

[unknown522]

Yeah, that's just your fault

 

[Strong Badam]

went fox in all of my relevant matches this weekend
5th behind darkatma, dekuschrub, g. vice and vts.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Yeah, that's just your fault

Which of the three? Seriously, I cannot believe one can uair Falco teching in place without getting hit by the shine

 

[Strong Badam]

you have 5 frames to do it. it's possible, but difficult. welcome to ssbm

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

you have 5 frames to do it. it's possible, but difficult. welcome to ssbm

l canceling is too hard, it shouldn't be in the game

 

[Brookman]

anyone care to offer some critique to my friend's fox??

vs. marth

vs. sheik

vs. falcon

vs. falcon 2(??)

vs. fox

Come on, you know you want to!!

I only watched the falcon matches since that's the matchup I'm most comfortable with.

Anyway, here's what I would work on if I was him.

1. Recover better. Brother just goes down south all the time and doesn't even try to sweetspot. Fox should almost never be recovering below the edge unless he sweetspots and even then, it's so easy to grab the edge before fox. He gets edgeguarded/hogged way too easily, especially if he doesn't sweetspot. Try coming back to stage faster with Side-B or firefox. This was the cause of his death many times.

2. If the opponent ever puts up his shield, don't attack the shield. Putting up shield says "grab me please" . Practically every time falcon had his shield up initially, fox straight up would Up-smash or nair or whatever to the shield instead of grab. Even shine -> JC grab would be fine.

3. Work more on tech skill and control with character. He got stuck in shine, couldn't recover right, did full jumps when it seemed like it was not his intention.

Those were the really glaring things to me. I have more, but I think this is fine for now.

3+. Also, ffs falcon is so easy to edgeguard. There are times where falcon gets back on and that shouldn't really ever happen. F-smash alone beats the **** out of falcon unless he recovers too high or low enough to sweetspot the ledge. In which case, you either see where he goes and bair/f-smash/u-smash/appropriate move or just WD back edgehog, respectively. Honestly, as long as the fox pays attention, it is very hard for falcon to recover back due to the nature of his recovery. (Shines are on point though. Give him that)

more please!! anyone??

 

[Lovage]

what the heck u fail when you UAIR tech chase?

that's 100% you lol, stop hitting with the 1st part of the move only

 

[unknown522]

l canceling is too hard, it shouldn't be in the game

I agree. Not because it's too hard though, but because of something that KK discussed with me one day; Since there's no reason to not L-cancel, it just gouldnt be in the game since it just adds an extra useless input.

But yeah, for the things that are your fault, I was talking about getting shined out of you u-air (being too slow), and getting cc-shined out of your drill (probably missing l-cancel or shining/doing other move too slow).

 

[Strong Badam]

And pisses me off whenever I play against Ice Climbers

 

[unknown522]

That too!

*** ICs

 

[Divinokage]

Lol ICs, Easssyyyyyy.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Novi, you can't crouch cancel Fox's drill. It breaks CC. >_>

 

[SillyGoose]

Anyone care to offer advice on my fox vs doc and in general?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ACWS3_SRvs

I feel like I start off moving and approaching well, but my decision making gets more predictable as the set and games progress because I'm getting antsy/mentally fatigued.

Any tips on which throws are useful against doc and when?

ideas on edgeguarding and recovering successfully?

Is it possible to nair/bair fast enough to shine before they crouch cancel dmash/grab, or should I stick to dair when I think they're looking for that?

 

[Wenbobular]

I think you're just throwing out moves without much regard to what happens after they hit, or if they'll hit at all

As such you landed like one combo on him the entire first game even though you had opportunities for Nair->uptilt or waveshine -> upsmash that I'm sure you can see if you watch the match again on your own

You also randomly full length illusion into the stage when he's not covering shortened illusion .... so, randomly handing him stocks basically

Throws kinda suck vs Doc unless you're good at hitting him when he comes down or if you can pseudocombo upthrow uair, just waveshine upsmash for damage + position

Edgeguarding Doc involves punishing his landing lag and forcing him to up-b suboptimally by smartly refreshing your invincibility + shinespiking whenever appropriate

Dsmash is probably your best bet if you can't grab the ledge

Docs recovering high are a chore, but sometimes they throw bad pills that you can just Bair through ... remember pills are mad laggy

I think the most important thing you should work on is hitconfirming stray hits into actual punishes ... having some idea of how you're going to hit them helps a lot in planning ahead, as opposed to having no plan at all and just throwing out moves

 

[SillyGoose]

Thanks for responding.

I wasn't aware there were a great deal of combos fox had on doc, or that waveshine upsmash even worked unless you got a running start?

When I watch SFAT vs shroomed, he seems to try to clip Shroomed off the edge with nairs, bairs, and dair shine grab fthrow and then edgeguard (much more reaction-heavy and efficiently then I can), I don't really see any combos though.

I've tried dsmash before, but my opponent techs it every time.

Your definitely right about my recovery, I go for very bad ledge-cancels and usually wiff when I should be playing it safer in a money match. I'll try to apply shortens to my game also.

Is there any use for dthrow against doc, or should fox stick to up-throw chase and throwing doc off the stage?

 

[unknown522]

Lol. As I left work just now, I saw oscar's exact double (minus glasses)

 

[PB&J]

just finished playing dj nintendos fox this weekend. Just learned some new tricks. See you guys at rom 5 and apex

 

[omgwtfToph]

Dthrow vs characters like Doc can be amazing but you have to have amazing reaction (or get lucky).

If it helps, a lot of people tend to DI throws behind, so dthrow run backwards usmash works a little more often than it should.

 

[SillyGoose]

Lol. As I left work just now, I saw oscar's exact double (minus glasses)

Mattdtozeb was in Ontario?

 

[unknown522]

Fighting doc:

So laser +DD camping is great.


If you don't want to be that guy then here:

Disrespect his shield game. Chances are he's gonna try to shield grab you all day. Either grab him, or don't mess up tech skill. Also shroomed has popularized u-smash oos, but if you just don't mess up, it will never work; you'll stuff him every time. Preferable if you go behind him during pressure (like drill through him to get behind or something).

Whenever you think he'll approach, you can stuff it with b-air/ -> u-tilt. It's really gay....well his b-air should trade with yours, but then that requires him to have his back turned and he needs kind of specific spacing to go for a trade. If he wants to keep his back turned, you can mow him over with tech skill cuz he can't stuff your approaches while on the ground (unless lucky u-smash). You can also u-tilt/Upsmash his b-air with low-ish risk unless there's a percent deficit.


If you want, you can also use platforms to force him to jump after you, and manuveur around him, or head on attack from awkward angles where his priority won't compete with yours.

That being said: watch out for CC -> d-smash and stuff. That's where drill comes in. Drill -> shine -> Upsmash/grab/d/u-tilt/d-smash/etc to force him off or into bad positions. Throwing him up is good, but beware of random d-air priority from doc.


Don't get jab -> grabbed/d-smashed. And make them regret ever using jab through either CC, or just DIing away from him so that he can't combo and punish the next action. Or buffer a roll.

More to add. Subway

Edit: also some docs will try to be annoying and spot dodge/roll to get out of pressure. Don't run into the move that they're gonna probably do after. Also don't mess up tech skill or you'll get hit off.

Don't let him gimp you. They fish hard for that. DI away from doc in most scenarios. Unless he's obviously is gonna hit with a kill move (minus f-air in some cases).

WD back or roll if doc is trying to pressure with spaced moves. If not, shine oos and see if you can grab him or something.

N-air/b-air/drill/shield pills.

Also lol MDZ and lovage

 

[omgwtfToph]

More to add. Subway

LOL this cracked me up

 

[SillyGoose]

It seems like he can jab after I shield an uair, late nair, and even fair without getting punished. He usually connects jab to grab (on hit, and even on block cuz I suck)

What's the best action when he jabs my shield at close range? Can I get a shield grab or shine oos or full hop dair, or should I just try to buffer a roll?

 

[omgwtfToph]

The answer is yes. Also, you're overthinking this.

 

[SillyGoose]

The answer is yes. Also, you're overthinking this.

I only play this guy once a week, so in the other six days I resort to theorybros

 

[omgwtfToph]

Ok, then when he jabs your shield, do a SH drill out of shield and combo it into waveshine usmash. The other things you posted (shine oos, shieldgrab) work, but only if he's within range (aka jabbed you with ****ty spacing (which isn't all that improbable, come to think)).

Or wavedash oos away from his jab.

 

[unknown522]

LOL this cracked me up

:D

 

[Bones0]

I only play this guy once a week, so in the other six days I resort to theorybros

I only get to play once a month, so I know dat feels.

Usmash OoS vs. jab mixups, and buffer a roll in case he hits you before it comes out. You can also just shield grab it or roll away normally. Non-Ganon jabs have so little stun (like Falco's lasers), that I tend to just assume they have none and move as soon as possible. Basically, you'll almost never try to do something and still be in stun from the jab. You'll either get hit or it will execute, and even when they hit there are only so many true followups they can do.

 

[Winston]

I've only skimmed the discussion, but a really good option vs shield pressure that involves jabs is to attempt a shieldgrab (or some other action) while holding down. If they jab you you'll CC it and then you can hit them with something.

If it's not clear, you could use this for example when doc hits your shield with aerial -> jab, which is pretty common.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

what the heck u fail when you UAIR tech chase?

that's 100% you lol, stop hitting with the 1st part of the move only

Basically there's very little time to hit with uair when Falco techs and shines right after. Most of the time I hit uair too late and get shined or alternatively uair too early and get shined. In both cases I get shined. I also don't nair when Falco techs in place because he crotch cancers it and I get shined. The best option is to space a grab properly but usually Im too close and I get shined.

 

[rokimomi]

... I also don't nair when Falco techs in place because he crotch cancers it and I get shined...

that's certainly what this matchup feels like

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Anyone wanna give me advice for transitioning between campy-laser-Fox and rushin'-your-***-down-Fox? Watching some of my vids, it seems like I laser a few times, get some good %, but then I'm trapped at the edge. I'd rather not have to just get on the ledge and ledgedash through people every time. lol I'm thinking about primarily vs. Peach, if that matters. Also, any specific baits that I can use while being aggro to make them think I'm backing off to laser more would be helpful. All that really comes to mind is to just do a quick dash away and RSHL and hope they chase me.

Be closer to them and when they approach nair