Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[KosukeKGA]

I was playing AZ's best Peach, Light, one time as Fox...

I shine her and attempt to keep waveshining but for some reason she got a D-Smash on me...

Is it possible to CC the shine and lessen the stun?

 

[Da Shuffla]

Maybe you aren't wding out of the shine fast enough. And as far as I know, CCing only reduces knockback, and not hitstun. I usually do repeated waveshines on Peach. Waveshine>grab, or Usmash for the kill.

 

[halcyon.days]

Okay, I have a few Qs...

I seem to have problems shining from a full dash. I know that basically you're just ccing and then pressing b to shine but I can never do it even close to 100% of the time. The reason why I want to learn to do this is because you can waveshine->usmash if you're quick enough, netting an easy kill on people who don't fall from shine. (Or dair -> waveshine -> usmash)

Also, I can wavedash backwards out of shine maybe 75% of the time. The other 25% of the time I just turn around in my shine. Any tips?

 

[Lovage 805]

when shining out of dash, make sure you fully cancel your dash before you press B. practice with jabs first, and use the same timing, but with B instead of A.

to wavedash backward out of shine, press jump before you input the direction. just practice, going slowly at first, then faster and faster until its second nature

 

[LuCKy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYTr3ORd2AU

 

[ArcNatural]

lol last page are you people high, fox is much worse for falcon then sheik
shinespike'ing him is so easy it's stupid

Falcon has more options against Fox than he does against Sheik. As he tech chases Fox much much better than he can Sheik, and even though Sheik is somewhat floaty she is probably the most awkward to combo in that regard because of her size and falling speed. It's still a horrible matchup though(Fox and Sheik).

NEVER use Falcon's edgegaurding as a single reason for why a matchup would be against him. He shouldn't survive off the edge against Sheik either, it's just as easy.

What I mean is, it's not how bad they **** him that makes it worse. It's how bad he can **** them too.

 

[Da Shuffla]

Still, Falcon has high traction(shine combos), and is a fast-faller(U-juggling/CGing). Fox's speed also makes him harder to grab, which a BIG PART of Falcon's ground game. A DD camping Fox can weave in and out of Falcon's range easily. Fox's lasers also force Falcon to come to him, and that is when Fox gets dangerous. I'm not sure if Shiek has as many advantages against Falcon.

 

[halcyon.days]

when shining out of dash, make sure you fully cancel your dash before you press B. practice with jabs first, and use the same timing, but with B instead of A.

to wavedash backward out of shine, press jump before you input the direction. just practice, going slowly at first, then faster and faster until its second nature

What do you mean by practice with jabs? I'm pretty sure you don't mean jab cancelling, but wouldn't I be doing d-tilts instead of jab if I pressed B instead of A?

 

[SpaceFalcon]

Lol @ DD Fox.

 

[Lovage 805]

What do you mean by practice with jabs? I'm pretty sure you don't mean jab cancelling, but wouldn't I be doing d-tilts instead of jab if I pressed B instead of A?

practice dash cancel jab
then apply that timing to dash cancel shine

 

[CanISmash]

Still, Falcon has high traction(shine combos), and is a fast-faller(U-juggling/CGing). Fox's speed also makes him harder to grab, which a BIG PART of Falcon's ground game. A DD camping Fox can weave in and out of Falcon's range easily. Fox's lasers also force Falcon to come to him, and that is when Fox gets dangerous. I'm not sure if Shiek has as many advantages against Falcon.

... i know it's mostly opinion and we're just formulating who we think has the worst matchup.but fox's dd is not all that amazing to ruin c.falc. c.falc is the fastest. fox camping is null and void against c.falc as he can be in his face 24/7 unlike falco who isn't as fast but has the stun.

sheik spaced f-tilt avoiding grabs > fox's dd.

fox has a shinespike sure but sheik has a tech chase that is ridiculously difficult for falcon to get out of. on top of this edge guarding is her game and she has so many options vs c.falc. and can easily combo him into an edge guard situation.

 

[Da Shuffla]

True, true. I forgot about Shieks ridiculous CG, and about her tilt>slap combos. I just thought Fox had the better matchup given his speed. So, Fox is easier to grab?

 

[GOTM]

i main sheik and i hate fighting good falcons... hit and runs then uthrow knee at 65 and you are done. i was thinking of going fox for falcons, he seems to have a better pressure game as well as gimps falcon easier than sheik

unless you master planks sheik style of play vs. falcon, haha. he just tech chases them until like 200, lmao. so gay. i stole cactus' style fox play against falcon, just uthrow, nair, and either re-grab or jab reset regrab. it works from like 30 to like whenever you can bair instead to kill, lol

lol last page are you people high, fox is much worse for falcon then sheik
shinespike'ing him is so easy it's stupid

not true unless they suck

 

[ja_ov]

Is there a difference between a JC'd U-smash, a CC'd U-smash and a wave-into-Usmash?

Also, I'm pretty sure CC'ing a grab doesn't lead you to do a standing grab. Is this true, or am I wrong? That is to say, is there a difference between a CC'd grab, JC'd grab and a wave-into-grab?

I've read a few Fox guides so far and, although they make mention of this, they never really describe the differences between them (as far as I've seen).

Thanks for the clarifications.

 

[Da Shuffla]

A JC'd Usmash is when you run, and when you get to the enemy, Usmash. I do this the same way I would do a normal charged Usmash. WD>Usmash is when you WD, and Usmash during that animation, I think.

I don't know what a CC'd grab is. A JC grab is the fastest kind of grab. This is where you run, jump, and then grab really fast. I jump with X, and grab with Z. If you do this fast enough, your feet should never leave the ground. You run, your jump cancels your dash, and your grab cancels your jump. Yes, you can WD into a JC grab. I usually JC all of my grabs because of the speed If you don't JC your WD>grab, you will just do a normal standing grab.

 

[CanISmash]

Is there a difference between a JC'd U-smash, a CC'd U-smash and a wave-into-Usmash?

Also, I'm pretty sure CC'ing a grab doesn't lead you to do a standing grab. Is this true, or am I wrong? That is to say, is there a difference between a CC'd grab, JC'd grab and a wave-into-grab?

I've read a few Fox guides so far and, although they make mention of this, they never really describe the differences between them (as far as I've seen).

Thanks for the clarifications.

Jump cancelling is cancelling an animation by jumping and cancelling the jump by an action.

e.g. your running, you cancel the run by jumping you cancel the jump by up-smash.

cc up-smash is crouch cancelling an attack so that you dont get as much knockback. then during your free frames you up-smash. think of it as metapod harden. lol. then countering with hypebeam aka fox's up-smash.

grab works the same was as up-smash except for grab. you should always jc your grabs. just smash up then grab immediately.

wave into grab also can and prolly should be jc. it can work on the floor or better on platforms. your just wd into better position to grab.

 

[GOTM]

can i smash you go to temple right?

whats your sn? we should play more often. i wanna play more fox's that arent cactus haha

 

[halcyon.days]

If I do an aerial to shine (assuming my aerial attack doesn't get shield grabbed) and my shine hits the enemy's shield, if I JC grab from the shine will it be faster than my opponent's shield-grab?

Also, is the distance that the enemy gets hit dependent on their DI or where they get hit by the shine (or both). I remember hitting a fox with shine and I tried to follow up with a wavedash -> jab but I couldn't wavedash far enough. Later, however, I nair'd him and right when i was right in the middle of him I shined and I could follow up with a Thunders' combo.

 

[GOTM]

If I do an aerial to shine (assuming my aerial attack doesn't get shield grabbed) and my shine hits the enemy's shield, if I JC grab from the shine will it be faster than my opponent's shield-grab?

yes

10 chars

 

[RaynEX]

Don't grab. Just thunders to something gay and death combo them.

 

[CanISmash]

GOTM my aim is k1dg0tskillz (no relation to evaluationg of my smash level lol)
i im'ed you before. me and my partner play basically daily in the game room, we've also been to the drexel game room. but if you wanna come down that's cool. bring someone so maybe we can get doubles lol.

 

[halcyon.days]

Don't grab. Just thunders to something gay and death combo them.

But won't they shieldgrab me when I try to do the wavedash -> jab after my shine?

 

[ja_ov]

Sorry, when I asked my question before, I think people misunderstood me. Totally my fault; I wasn't using the correct terminology. When I said CC'ed U-smash/grab, I meant Dash-canceled U-Smash/grab. That is, smashing down to cancel your dash and then smashing/grabbing.

I'm sorry for posting the same question again, but I'd really like to know the answer.

So, basically, I tend to do a dashing U-smash/grab two different ways:
Method A: Smash forward (dash) > Smash down (Dash-cancel) > C-Up/Z (U-Smash/Grab)
Method B: Smash forward (dash) > Smash up (Jump-cancel) > C-Up/Z (U-Smash/Grab)

Now, I'm sorry if I'm being a total noob, here., but, in an effort to better understand the game, I'm going to state my assumptions so you guys can tell me where I'm wrong, if I'm wrong:
1) There is no difference in the frame counts for a Dash-canceled U-Smash/grab and a Jump-canceled U-Smash/grab.
2) A Dash-canceled grab performs a standing grab, not a dashing grab (is that the correct term for for it?)

Logically, if both assumptions (1) and (2) are true, then it follows that Method A and Method B are, at least within the game, exactly the same. So, whether you use Method A or Method B is entirely a personal preference.

Sorry to go into so much detail, but one of my best friends who has adamantly refused to play SSB:M for the past three years has finally decided to learn to play. So, last night, I taught him a few of the basic techniques (I'm no smash pro, but I definitely do know more than him) and, when the concept of dash-grabbing and dash-smashing came up, I taught him both methods and he asked me if there was any difference between the two. I didn't know. So, I came to the only reliable source for accurate information on Melee techniques I've found, the Smash Forums.

Sorry for the long post, but I really don't want to give my friend any innaccurate information that might turn him away from the game.

Again, my question is: Are Methods A and B (stated above) the same? If not, which assumptions (1, 2 or both) are incorrect? Or is there something else that I'm missing completely?

Thanks again, guys.

 

[RaynEX]

But won't they shieldgrab me when I try to do the wavedash -> jab after my shine?

lol I was trolling.

Still, if you constantly put yourself into a position where you aerial into your opponent's shield, you are clearly doing something wrong. Be more patient, and don't always put yourself at the mercy of your opponent's defensive options.

If you do get caught in it though:

1: Full hop and Ff with another aerial (which I wouldn't recommend)

2: Full hop and land behind them. From here you can bair, DD into a grab or just trick them somehow. (this I recommend)

3: Wavedash backwards and punish their lag from the shield-grab.

4: JC your shine and shine again.

Be careful with 4 though. If they wait for the second shine, you have no double jump, and they will probably death combo you. This happened to me vs. m2k numerous times.

Sorry, when I asked my question before, I think people misunderstood me. Totally my fault; I wasn't using the correct terminology. When I said CC'ed U-smash/grab, I meant Dash-canceled U-Smash/grab. That is, smashing down to cancel your dash and then smashing/grabbing.

I'm sorry for posting the same question again, but I'd really like to know the answer.

So, basically, I tend to do a dashing U-smash/grab two different ways:
Method A: Smash forward (dash) > Smash down (Dash-cancel) > C-Up/Z (U-Smash/Grab)
Method B: Smash forward (dash) > Smash up (Jump-cancel) > C-Up/Z (U-Smash/Grab)

Now, I'm sorry if I'm being a total noob, here., but, in an effort to better understand the game, I'm going to state my assumptions so you guys can tell me where I'm wrong, if I'm wrong:
1) There is no difference in the frame counts for a Dash-canceled U-Smash/grab and a Jump-canceled U-Smash/grab.
2) A Dash-canceled grab performs a standing grab, not a dashing grab (is that the correct term for for it?)

Logically, if both assumptions (1) and (2) are true, then it follows that Method A and Method B are, at least within the game, exactly the same. So, whether you use Method A or Method B is entirely a personal preference.

Sorry to go into so much detail, but one of my best friends who has adamantly refused to play SSB:M for the past three years has finally decided to learn to play. So, last night, I taught him a few of the basic techniques (I'm no smash pro, but I definitely do know more than him) and, when the concept of dash-grabbing and dash-smashing came up, I taught him both methods and he asked me if there was any difference between the two. I didn't know. So, I came to the only reliable source for accurate information on Melee techniques I've found, the Smash Forums.

Sorry for the long post, but I really don't want to give my friend any innaccurate information that might turn him away from the game.

Again, my question is: Are Methods A and B (stated above) the same? If not, which assumptions (1, 2 or both) are incorrect? Or is there something else that I'm missing completely?

Thanks again, guys.

There is actually one big difference between CC and JC usmashing.

You can't dash cancel the intial frames of your dash. That is, when you tap forwards, you can have to actually start running before you can cancel it with a crouch. With JCing, you can tap forwards and immediately jump, meaning you can immediately usmash as well - before you even start running.

JCing is a ****load faster. To understand what I mean, try DDing in place, then crouch cancel to usmashing. It won't work, because you can't crouch during your INITIAL DASH FRAMES. JCing can be done during any part of your dash, and thus, out of your DD.

Hope I didn't confuse you.

 

[ArcNatural]

lol I was trolling.

Still, if you constantly put yourself into a position where you aerial into your opponent's shield, you are clearly doing something wrong. Be more patient, and don't always put yourself at the mercy of your opponent's defensive options.

If you do get caught in it though:

1: Full hop and Ff with another aerial (which I wouldn't recommend)

2: Full hop and land behind them. From here you can bair, DD into a grab or just trick them somehow. (this I recommend)

3: Wavedash backwards and punish their lag from the shield-grab.

4: JC your shine and shine again.

Be careful with 4 though. If they wait for the second shine, you have no double jump, and they will probably death combo you. This happened to me vs. m2k numerous times.

You can also if your technical just SH or SH nair/drill/bair/etc. out of the shine, don't know why you listed all the Full jump methods without the SH ones. They work just as well as Falco's. Not to mention you can just waveadash back or forward out of shine before they can grab you if your fast enough.

There is actually one big difference between CC and JC usmashing.

You can't dash cancel the intial frames of your dash. That is, when you tap forwards, you can have to actually start running before you can cancel it with a crouch. With JCing, you can tap forwards and immediately jump, meaning you can immediately usmash as well - before you even start running.

JCing is a ****load faster. To understand what I mean, try DDing in place, then crouch cancel to usmashing. It won't work, because you can't crouch during your INITIAL DASH FRAMES. JCing can be done during any part of your dash, and thus, out of your DD.

Hope I didn't confuse you.

Not to mention (frame data people can correct me if I'm wrong) but Fox's jump only takes like 3 or 4 frames to initiate. I'm pretty sure even after your fully dashing it takes longer than 3 frames to cancel the dash and initiate the upsmash.

True, true. I forgot about Shieks ridiculous CG, and about her tilt>slap combos. I just thought Fox had the better matchup given his speed. So, Fox is easier to grab?

They are both equally hard to grab. It's just if you get the grab unless your Darkrain (who can do both Fox and Sheik) your going to have a better chance with that grab against Fox.

 

[RaynEX]

You can also if your technical just SH or SH nair/drill/bair/etc. out of the shine, don't know why you listed all the Full jump methods without the SH ones. They work just as well as Falco's. Not to mention you can just waveadash back or forward out of shine before they can grab you if your fast enough.

The advice I gave was meant for practical use for by players of all skill levels. I also don't think JC shines -> aerials are really good with Fox. He isn't like Falco, where his shine is better than his grab. I think the fact that a grab = free move is more than enough reason to forget trying to hit with aerials and shines and just get a grab.

But of course SHing works too. I still sort of feel that its better to be safe + effective with Full hop (it gives you more options), and that rambo with SH moves might get you grabbed again. The more you attempt to spam tech skill, the more chances you have to screw up and lose a stock.

 

[J0n]

How do I approach falcos with great tech skills? Aerials to shines get cced and I get shined and comboe forever. Dashing at them results in a laser to a grab or shine. What can I do against them?

 

[RaynEX]

If the Falcos you face spam CC, then you spam the two moves you have that **** CC; dair and grab.

Dair can't be CCed, so if they sit there and get hit, it leads to:

1: Thunders combo

2: Drill grab

Thunders can lead to a grab, usmash, another drill...whatever your heart desires really. Use drill alot and make sure you deal a ****load of damage everytime you get a grab. To approach, I'd suggest using fullhop FFed dairs if they CC your nairs. Come at them from really high with a move they can't CC, and it should work often. Try not to miss, or the techy Falcos are going to death combo you.

Use shine to force Falco closer to the edge, and punish him when he has no room to run or laser. When you put him between yourself and the edge, he will always try to laser and switch control of the match. What you want to do is either come from above, or run straight in and shield. Shielding can lead to JC usmashes and easy combos/grabs. Basically, you want to get him off the stage, because its where Falco is weakest.

A huge part of this match-up is edge-guarding, so when you get Falco off - keep him off. Missing an edge-guard could potentially cost you a stock or pillar combo.

 

[GOTM]

GOTM my aim is k1dg0tskillz (no relation to evaluationg of my smash level lol)
i im'ed you before. me and my partner play basically daily in the game room, we've also been to the drexel game room. but if you wanna come down that's cool. bring someone so maybe we can get doubles lol.

oh thats you?!?! hahahaha. omg dude. i freakin like completely thought it was someone else, that i dont like, hahahah. omg, wow. ok, yeah we're gonna start playing more, lol

 

[CanISmash]

<3 RaynEX
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=OSvjHwr0Ffg

lol.

:x yup GOTM the sooner the better!!!

ok yooo rayne your vids were amazing to watch lol.

when you n-air shine. you jab cancel alot??
also open discussion on your dropping turn around shine before you recover.

 

[RaynEX]

Tyvm. iuno about amazing. I always find my Fox sort of comical when it goes on youtube. I move weird and stuff.

I sometimes spam jab. Its a bad habit because vs. good Marths in my city I get CC-grabbed.

Are you talking about the thing I did in this match vs. sliq? http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=YyvZBQkaCXM

It was the second time I had played him, the first time in GA for the TGMTSBCO tourny. His Jiggs is really, really aggressive on edge-guard. I needed a way to keep him off me, because when I was below the stage he'd always drop down to finish me off.

At that moment, it felt like the shine to bair was the only thing I could do - and it worked. I think its really limited in its uses, but if you are pretty sure you can hit with it, I think its worth the risk.

 

[ArcNatural]

The advice I gave was meant for practical use for by players of all skill levels. I also don't think JC shines -> aerials are really good with Fox. He isn't like Falco, where his shine is better than his grab. I think the fact that a grab = free move is more than enough reason to forget trying to hit with aerials and shines and just get a grab.

But of course SHing works too. I still sort of feel that its better to be safe + effective with Full hop (it gives you more options), and that rambo with SH moves might get you grabbed again. The more you attempt to spam tech skill, the more chances you have to screw up and lose a stock.

It gives you different options. If you fulljump your susceptible to sh upairs out of shield, wavedashes out of shield, etc. but gain the advantage of pressuring them if they want to fulljump out or stay in shield.

Sh ones have more risk as you said, but it stops wavedash out of shield/ shffl out of shield and basically forces them to roll. But as you said, much more difficult to do and much more susceptible to getting grab ***** or CC shined by Falco.

For another option for CC Falcos. You'd be surprised at how well just jumping at them and shining works (basically faking a shffl or fulljump attack to shine to jump out). But mostly drill and grab as the best counters for CC as RaynEX said.

 

[RaynEX]

I'll try that, shine sounds good. Its a bit unreliable as an approach but I could see how it would work if a Fox is having trouble forcing Falco to the edge or into a grab. If you hit with the shine you might be able to chase him before he regains stage control with lasers.

 

[takieddine]

God **** i miss this game

 

[oldmankungfu]

alright i know i said this a week ago but i should for SURE have my vids up later today. I was having sum problems changing the format and saving it as the right file but i found a way today. but besides that i need help on the dreaded marth match up... i keep getting hit with the sword. i cant get close enough if i do then he just sword swipes me and IT"S ANNOYING!!!!

 

[Tero.]

vs Marth:

Dashdance

Grab

Uthrow

Uair

****.

Shieldapproach is pretty good too.
Punish fsmashs with shieldgrabs (if poorly spaced) or wd oos grab.

lightshield eg.

 

[ArcNatural]

I'll try that, shine sounds good. Its a bit unreliable as an approach but I could see how it would work if a Fox is having trouble forcing Falco to the edge or into a grab. If you hit with the shine you might be able to chase him before he regains stage control with lasers.

It's definitely unreliable, but it's a great strategy. Against a good player this may work twice. Then they probably will think of something else to do besides CC when they see you jump without an attack. But that's when you hit them with the double jump mindgames.

95% of the people who play Melee don't Dashdance appropriately (including me!).

 

[Lovage 805]

dash dancing is gay

 

[oldmankungfu]

agreed but not the point how exactly do you lightshield the edge??? i've tried but cant do it

 

[Falcinho]

Roll towards the ledge
Hold Z for lightshield
Tilt the shield towards the ledge