Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[voorhese]

I jump with X too, but I use Y specifically for doubleshine/double laser now. Don't worry, with practice it won't matter you can use both x and y =)

 

[chillindude829]

anyone use jump back side+B (edge cancelled off a platform) for an alternative recovery option from the ledge?

seems like its only viable on battlefield

 

[Bones0]

If you want to grounded shine OoS, make sure you angle the stick for the shine. This makes it easier to shine while avoiding spot dodging by accident, and it also helps you turn around in shine immediately. This enables you to easily punish stuff on your back (which is when you will primarily be wanting to use shine OoS anyway).

anyone use jump back side+B (edge cancelled off a platform) for an alternative recovery option from the ledge?

seems like its only viable on battlefield

You can do it on Poke Stadium as well (even easier imo). You can also do it on YS if you can get the mid cancels (though I think it's fairly useless since it's such a small stage).

 

[kd-]

Bones beat me to it =/ I thought foxes have been doing that on Poke/BF for quite some time now, people also like to throw out a falling bair after the edge cancel.

Speaking of OoS, WD OoS was brought up again in the ssbpd thread and I have trouble with it. I've been given the advice before of just dropping shield and doing a normal wavedash, but I seem to get stuck in the shield drop animation, or shield stun perhaps, or some other unknown-to-me laggy animation. As a person who only uses L - pressing R for me for any use during this game is awkward - I jump, let go of L, then wavedash which usually results in a triangle jump. Any tips?

 

[Bones0]

It's all about speed. I think the most important thing to understand is you don't have to fully let go of the trigger. So let's say you are holding L all the way down. You jump, which puts you into jumpcrouch for 3 frames. During those 3 frames, you have to let go of the trigger and then airdodge on frame 4 (first airborne frame). The trick is, you don't have to let go of the trigger all the way. You just have to let it unclick so that you can reclick it for the airdodge. Furthermore, if you were simply lightshielding before the jump, you can just push the trigger down further to initiate the airdodge. You don't have to let go of it at all.

You really just need to practice. I'd recommend doing it with some of the chars with slower jumps, then progressing towards the 3-frame jumpers (Fox, Sheik, ICs, Samus etc.). There is absolutely no reason you shouldn't be able to WD OoS with a single trigger without having to do something like letting go of shield.

 

[chillindude829]

seems like the only time i can do mid cancelled side+Bs is when its my only option of survival when recovering lol, really doubt i could do it to the perfect distance to edge cancel a platform with any consistency. how does that work anyway? are there certain frames during the side+B that you need to press to make it go certain distances? really i guess im just wondering how tight the timing actually is

i forgot about stadium tho good call

 

[Bones0]

seems like the only time i can do mid cancelled side+Bs is when its my only option of survival when recovering lol, really doubt i could do it to the perfect distance to edge cancel a platform with any consistency. how does that work anyway? are there certain frames during the side+B that you need to press to make it go certain distances? really i guess im just wondering how tight the timing actually is

i forgot about stadium tho good call

Well the frame data thread says:
"Time to press B and stop Fox: 20-24"

That means there are 5 frames you can press B to cancel the Illusion, and there are only 4 lengths. One is the full length, so that doesn't really count. After that, you have the super short one that most people use, and then you have two middle ones. They are all evenly spaced. You can go to Training Mode and see each distance by rolling to the ledge on PokeStadium before doing a side-B. The short one just takes you past the black outer line. The second takes you to the gray line under the platform. The third takes you to the edge of the PokeBall. And the fourth (full distance) goes to the center of the PokeBall.

So you have 5 frames you can cancel on, but only 3 cancel distances. Even if cancelling on the 5th frame makes you go full distance, that means at least one of the distance has a 2-frame window vs. the other's 1-frame window. If I had to guess at how it worked just from my experience, I would say the first and third lengths are the ones with 2-frame windows, and the second length only has a single frame window. That's just from my feelings about how often I get that length though, so this is hardly anything reliably objective. I just know that I can get the short one very consistently (it might even be 3 frames with the other two being frame perfect now that I think about it), and when I go for the mid distance I tend to get the longer one.

 

[voorhese]

sup guys! I didn't read all of your post sveet >_<

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You can ledgehop waveland on dreamland if your timing is good. Being able to ledgehop waveland on battlefield should be a staple too. From my experiences spamming a lot of illusion ledge cancels, people tend to catch on after a while. I'm not sure if the metagame is like this everywhere, but around here people actively look and cover that option. Its still fairly safe, but you can be punished. Ledgehop waveland (platform or not) is much safer IMO

 

[shadrach kabango]

Okay, I've thought about the commentary thing. These are my thoughts.

Lovage is 100% right in that noob commentary sucks because it's misleading and generally wrong. For IMPULSE, I really wanted my commentary to be accurate content wise. I think I succeeded there. But my pacing was bad and I really couldn't get super into the sets because of fatigue, being sad about losing to M2K (especially after doing well game 1 and when I realized I could have CPed Battlefield because no ban in bo5 and I usually do well vs him there in tournament & friendlies [crappy mindset and not being ruleset conscious ftl]), and I had also been scrambling to house roughly 13 people at the last second because a lot of last minute plans were going down. I mean, no johns, but it's really hard to be hype when you're stressed about so many things and tired.

I do cut people off too much. I need to stop that and take a breather. I thought I was okay in that regard at the beginning but... you guys can point out instances and correct me. Constructive criticism too good.

Also, some people have mentioned my commentary at The Big House as superior to the commentary at IMPULSE. I have no doubt TBH had better commentary because I had two really big advantages there that I didn't have at IMPULSE. For one, I didn't have the stream in front of me at IMPULSE so I got no feedback from the stream monsters. Similarly, the other commentators barely gave me feedback between matches. When I did commentary at The Big House, Peef kept actively coaching me and telling me how long thoughts should be, and some practice stuff. I also had the stream so I knew when I wasn't doing a good job. Drekken told me the stream liked me so I figured I could keep doing what I was doing. My bad guys.

:muffins:

First of all, your commentary is above-abverage.

Secondly, don't stop commentating just because of poor feedback. The n00bs always ***** the loudest.

Most importantly, you just have to pick your spots. Melee is absurdly fast. When I commentate (assuming I'm serious; sometimes I just wanna say the first thing that comes to my mind), particularly with a partner, I know I have to pick my spots. Brevity is all-important because Melee is too fast to stay on a point for more than a sentence or two.

 

[Divinokage]

I agree though MvC 3 is freaking fast too but the commentators do a good job keeping up into what the player is looking for and stuff like that.

 

[Bones0]

You can ledgehop waveland on dreamland if your timing is good. Being able to ledgehop waveland on battlefield should be a staple too. From my experiences spamming a lot of illusion ledge cancels, people tend to catch on after a while. I'm not sure if the metagame is like this everywhere, but around here people actively look and cover that option. Its still fairly safe, but you can be punished. Ledgehop waveland (platform or not) is much safer IMO

You have to be frame perfect to WL onto the DL plats with Fox.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think Peach nairing out of shield in between a shine and a grab would happen more, too. If it were possible...I mean, we're waiting for the shine to nair, so why wouldn't it occur more? All I see is Peaches nairing out of shield after the shine when the Fox tries to go for another nair, or is empty hopping or something. Her short hop nair is 8 frames...

Sveet do you mind making a gif of this? This isn't exactly something I should be a stickler about, and if it's true, then fine...but it just sounds odd to me.

 

[Mahone]

You have to be frame perfect to WL onto the DL plats with Fox.

ya, don't u have to be frame perfect twice? i thought i remember you having to be frame perfect on the jump and the airdodge.... too tough for me

 

[unknown522]

anyone use jump back side+B (edge cancelled off a platform) for an alternative recovery option from the ledge?

seems like its only viable on battlefield

It's not bad. Better with falco though

 

[omgwtfToph]

If falco is falling from a full jump or something and you know (or think) he's going to land with a laser into a grab/shine/etc (to counter your DD grab), what's the best way to punish this?

Edit: Nevermind, I actually decided to think about it and I figured it out

 

[mers]

You have to be frame perfect to WL onto the DL plats with Fox.

Is this true? I do it very often and consistently, and I doubt I'm that frame perfect. It doesn't seem very hard.

The cool thing is that when you fail, you usually end up shield dropping through the platform (or at least I do), which can throw people off a lot.

 

[unknown522]

If falco is falling from a full jump or something and you know (or think) he's going to land with a laser into a grab/shine/etc (to counter your DD grab), what's the best way to punish this?

Edit: Nevermind, I actually decided to think about it and I figured it out

very good

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, you have to be frame perfect on the DJ and the airdodge like Mahone said.

I can't even DJ onto the platform. I have to airdodge to even get high enough, so idk how anyone can actually be doing it ever. Even when I tried using the C-stick to ledgedrop and clawing Y to jump I couldn't get high enough. :|

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So i have a question, anyone with classic FG experience help me out with this one.

Vro was doing this between stocks route where he would waveland and lightshield at the edge of a platform instead of falling off. If an attack hits his shield he falls off safely, if not he shields and is able to wavedash or whatever. This is 1 input for two options, does this count as an option select? if not, what is it called?

 

[chillindude829]

i wouldnt consider that an OS

OS's in traditional fighters are usually inputs you do while on the offensive to cover multiple defensive options from the opponent

 

[Bones0]

So i have a question, anyone with classic FG experience help me out with this one.

Vro was doing this between stocks route where he would waveland and lightshield at the edge of a platform instead of falling off. If an attack hits his shield he falls off safely, if not he shields and is able to wavedash or whatever. This is 1 input for two options, does this count as an option select? if not, what is it called?

I think an option select is when you do the same input to cover two options. What you're describing isn't an OS because he has to do a different input (WD OoS) if you don't hit him. An example of how that could be an option select is if he is on the outside edge of the platform and inputs C-stick towards the middle as an opponent jumps up to the platform. If the opponent jumped towards him and made him slide off, he will bair. If the opponent jumped straight up and WLed on without knocking him off, he would roll to the other side of the platform. It is the same input, but it has two (or more) different outcomes based entirely on your opponent's actions.

I think most Smashers have sort of changed the meaning to encompass anything that's designed to cover two or more options though. Like how M2K does fthrow -> late fair to cover missed techs, and when they tech roll he dash attacks. It's not a true OS because he wouldn't dash attack if the fair hit, but I think considering how few true OSs Melee has, we might as well use it like that.



@Illusion Cancelling on DL
You could always reverse ledge dash to get the extra height. Obviously a little more risky, but it could also be good to bait them to the ledge so you can ledge cancel more safely as long as you know you can get back off-stage before they reach you.

 

[omgwtfToph]

To be fair I've heard SF players use the term "option select" pretty loosely too i.e. covering multiple options with one attack

I think if you call it a "pseudo-option select" or something, as long as people know what you mean nobody's gonna complain

 

[Divinokage]

Really? I normally use that term when you can force an option out of someone by purposely whiffing an attack and then using another attack with a guaranteed 100% hit rate.

Though that's still probably not the correct usage of that term, but I see no other way to use it in Smash. lol.

 

[Bones0]

I've always thought it was interesting how Ganon has some of the laggiest moves, yet Ganon mains seem to utilize whiffed aerials more than every other character. Everyone should talk about how they used whiffed aerials with Fox (or anyone) to bait or w/e. I think this is something I could definitely use more. I really only use it with Marth, and I don't even think about it. I sort of just whiff late fairs and hope they run at me or something. lol

 

[Mahone]

I think the term should be used just for when you are covering multiple options based on what your opponent does...

By my understanding of the definition...

A simple example would be pressing (L + Control stick right) as I am in the grab animation when i am techchasing, if i successfully grab them, the (L + Control stick right) input does nothing, but if they teched then immediately shined (fox's shine, for example), and i was too slow and get hit, I tech roll the shine to the right


Actually that example isn't THAT simple i guess.... i know a great one that everyone uses... everytime you recover, you always option select teching the wall into something (maybe tech jump -> side-b), and then if you didn't get hit, those inputs do nothing and you just grab the ledge (or finish your recovery to be more precise)

 

[Divinokage]

I've always thought it was interesting how Ganon has some of the laggiest moves, yet Ganon mains seem to utilize whiffed aerials more than every other character. Everyone should talk about how they used whiffed aerials with Fox (or anyone) to bait or w/e. I think this is something I could definitely use more. I really only use it with Marth, and I don't even think about it. I sort of just whiff late fairs and hope they run at me or something. lol

That's exactly why it works so well, Fox does not have really laggy moves so his OS so to speak is weak. It's just like ok I hit Fox off-stage right? And then I start chasing him off-stage with a Fair, since it covers so much, they sometimes will have to start their up-B further so Fair whiffs.. but then I can DJ uair and hit them for the kill, it's a good trap.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Really? I normally use that term when you can force an option out of someone by purposely whiffing an attack and then using another attack with a guaranteed 100% hit rate.

Though that's still probably not the correct usage of that term, but I see no other way to use it in Smash. lol.

thats just a bait haha


The definition of an option select is "A series of inputs that will be interpreted by the game's engine differently depending on the interaction of the characters at the time the sequence of inputs is performed."

Common examples have "dead inputs" that only have meaning if a certain thing happens, like edge teching (you press L/R before upb; if you are attacked you tech, if you aren't you sweetspot). The L/R input has no meaning unless you are attacked.

In this case though, the input is very simple but two different outcomes occur depending on the opponent's choice.

@bones: ignore the wd oos, its irrelevant to the option select, i was just giving an example of a follow up (on reaction to the option select)

 

[Mahone]

ya, sveet beat me to it, but kage you should really just use "bait" for what you're describing...

if you think it needs more detail than that, then modify "bait", not "option select"

of course its a free country so do whatevs, but i think thatd be much clearer

@edit: oh **** sveet, i guess im the one who beat u to it

 

[kd-]

Really? I normally use that term when you can force an option out of someone by purposely whiffing an attack and then using another attack with a guaranteed 100% hit rate.

Though that's still probably not the correct usage of that term, but I see no other way to use it in Smash. lol.

The correct term for that would be a 'frame trap':

Frame trap:
1) A tactic in which you use a move that seems to be punishable but is actually advantageous on block, baiting the opponent into being punished when they attempt to retaliate.
2) A sequence of moves where the first move's frame advantage (or disadvantage) plus the startup frames (not counting the first active frame) for the follow-up move creates a window (the frame trap) where the opponent, even if they perform a move to react, will be stuffed because the active frames of their move will not come out before the active frames of the second move of the frame trap.

 

[Mahone]

oh, duh, ya thats exactly what kind of bait it is... too goodz

never forget the master of frame traps... isai with his dsmashes

 

[omgwtfToph]

yea frametraps are extremely common/prevalent in melee

 

[shadrach kabango]

I have a lot of trouble when my opponent is coming back with a fresh stock, replete with invincibility and, therefore, stage control.

So I was thinking, what if I light shield on the platform more as a mixup? You can shield drop to anything: shine, waveland, forward b edge cancel.

If you light shield on the edge and they hit you off you can bair or shine before their move hits you?

Example: On the right platform on Yoshi's Story, facing left, teetering off the platform. Marth, from below, nairs you. The first hit of his nair pushes you off. Your bair hits him before the second hit strikes you.

Is that accurate? What about Fox/Falco's uair? Peach's dair? Falcon's nair? Any other multiple hit move?

 

[Mahone]

But theyd just run at u and hit ur light shield and be invul for ur aerial?

Just lightshielding on a platform in the center can be a good mixup, forces them to get on the platform and grab you and then u have spotdodge shielddrop mindgames

 

[Bones0]

Fox can outrun pretty much everyone so this isn't necessary. If you really want to do it, I'd waste a bit of their invinc first. When I do it, I like to do on the outer edge of the side plats on YS and BF so I can shield drop onto the ledge then ledge dash back on to punish them as they chase me back down. It just doesn't work for their full invinc because they have too much time.

 

[Mahone]

what if u did that, but after ur invul waveland on you start a sideb while still invul and edgecancel it...

ggs

 

[Aefice]

hey.

1. whats safe on falcos shield? i keep getting shined out of shield

2. whats the best technique for double, triplet x shines. how does dark do repeated shines like in his perfect dark combo vid

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

1. few things are completely safe. Late aerial->shine and late aerial -> dash away are pretty good. Other than that its mostly mixups and traps

2. y->b is probably the best (least distance to cover) but if you do x->b its no prob if you hit A on the way (does nothing). multishining is about timing, so whatever way you do it so that your timing is correct is perfectly fine. There is no shortcut.

 

[Bones0]

Don't use X. It makes it unnecessarily difficult to shine OoS and LHDL.

 

[Allagro]

Hello...

Can anyone tell me how can I get fox's full moonwalk mines don't seem so sexy like in those combo videos and I only can make it seem visible while using bunny hood. I know you got to start by walking and then quickly move analog in opposite direciton, half circle etc etc. Anybody got a technique for that