Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[chillindude829]

Yo here's some ****in fox advice, use falling up air u ****in idiots

We don't have to all be jman, there are aerials other than neutral

 

[Palpi]

No there isn't. Nair is the only way to glory.

I do falling uair's to punish, but alot of times I feel like it is unsafe.

 

[Winston]

Yeah of course its unsafe. It's analogous to falcon's fh stomp, as in you should use it if you have a good reason to think it'll hit.

 

[Sinji]

Im using uair in my matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yV0IUe1E3U&feature=player_detailpage#t=581s

 

[chillindude829]

The only time I get punished for falling uair is when they preempt me, and that's usually only fox/falco shine/utilt or marth utilt, which are really hard to time correctly. Few other characters have options to beat it, and if u cancel it properly u won't get punished after

 

[voorhese]

i use it as a suprise approach to floaties

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i was messing around with it, but it doesn't hit a crouching sheik

 

[Strong Badam]

I wish I could just approach with falling uair

 

[Palpi]

up air is also less safe of shields than other aerials like nair and dair right?

 

[chillindude829]

U can approach with falling uair, seriously watch any of my zenith matches I use it so much

 

[Palpi]

I will see how you implement it, because it definitely can start some sick combos.

Are the videos up yet? I have seen a few of the singles matches, but I am not sure if I recall seeing any of your matches uploaded. Apart from the crew battles maybe..

edit; nevermind, they are uploaded

I literally watch the first minute of your match vs jman, and you land like 8 up-airs lol

 

[Lovage]

chilling you better be going to genesis

 

[Strong Badam]

U can approach with falling uair, seriously watch any of my zenith matches I use it so much

I was more talking about I wish my character could approach with falling upair.

 

[RaynEX]

I only use it in these situations:

-To kill Marth after lightshielding edge-hogging him at high percents.
-Running off a platform and falling uair when CGing Fox/Falco and they d.i. off the platform.
-Guessing a techchase if I think they're going to tech in place. If I miss I'm not put in lag, if I hit I get a combo.

Other than that I can't see any heavy application for it in Fox's game IMO. Its uses are varied but still limited.

Doesn't have enough horizontal range to be used as an effective approach tool, so its easier to DD grab for all opposing characters. Because of its lack of a decent hitbox on Fox's sides and directly below him, random moves (like jabs) have the potential to beat it. Not to mention that out of all of Fox's aerials, it provides you with the least shieldstun to work with for pressure.

I feel you Chillin, its a sick move. But I think dair is Fox's most versatile aerial. Guarantees combos if you connect right, gives you free shield pressure if your techskill is on point, knocks opponents below the edge for shine spikes, etc etc.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'll be honest, i think all of your criticisms are spot on accurate, but i also think most people undervalue doing weird unexpected ****. uair approach sorta falls into that category since it has different shield stuns and anti-combo DI plus some people get really freaked out when they get uair'd at 80 or 90%. I definitely don't think its necessary to add it to your game, but I can see how you and others (and myself for most of my smash career) thought it was a sub-par idea.

 

[Brookman]

I'm sure that chillin's application, as seen in his recent matches (zenith, etc), speaks for itself and the theory you use to debase it doesn't really hold water in comparison.

In my opinion its this sort of unorthodox play style that gives certain players an edge over the more traditional players.

 

[RaynEX]

Sveet: Cool cool

"Sub-par" is too harsh. Its a great idea, just not the optimal choice in most situations. There is potential for it to have just as much viability and effectiveness as all of Fox's other aerials, albeit less often. During matches I see this monstrous gray area where uair is just no good. For example, percents where uair won't kill your opponent, but knocks them high enough so that you don't get a follow-up hit. Or lower percents, where dair -> shine / grab grants a larger reward on hit. I feel you on the "unpredictable" tip, though. There is nothing wrong with breaking from convention and mixing it up a little. As Fox players I'm sure we can all agree on the value in that.

The more the game advances, the more we're forced to play cut-throat. It's sad really. Perhaps I'm over thinking it, but I definitely don't view it as a bad idea.

Oh btw, HOPE 3? You down? I'm down. Lets duuuuue dis.


Brookman: I'm not trying to debase anything. I posted about some of the practical uses I had for it, then gave a few reasons why I don't rely on it as much as, say, Chillin. My real intention was to get Chillin to share more of his thoughts on it.

Which reminds me, goddam Chillin I wish you beat Jman. That set was yours!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

HOPE 3, **** yeah!!!! I'm down.

I think uair is the type of move that can help add mental stress onto the opponent in order to win a match. Instead of a nair->usmash, since you have the lead you uair and make a call on how they are coming down and risk not maximizing damage in order to beat your opponent in his own head. I don't think this style is for everyone but certain styles could really take advantage of this.

I don't think this is how chillin uses it, just my thoughts xD

 

[chillindude829]

I only use it in these situations:

-To kill Marth after lightshielding edge-hogging him at high percents.

this also works vs virtually anyone that you edgehog and force onto the stage

-Running off a platform and falling uair when CGing Fox/Falco and they d.i. off the platform.

you've never pushed someone shielding on a platform off with w/e aerial (i also use uair for this part LOL) then gone into a falling uair as they're falling off the platform? that works beautifully

Doesn't have enough horizontal range to be used as an effective approach tool, so its easier to DD grab for all opposing characters.

you wouldnt ever really use it for horizontal approach, but i think you're overlooking the aspect of when someone is shieldpressuring you/staying next to you in some way. i talked about this before when we were talking about the falco matchup; its one of the best tools to get around falco's shiled pressure, and sometimes also fox. trust me, very few people are familiar enough with it to be able to time a shine or utilt to beat you out (its very difficult to time those to beat a falling uair)

Because of its lack of a decent hitbox on Fox's sides and directly below him, random moves (like jabs) have the potential to beat it. Not to mention that out of all of Fox's aerials, it provides you with the least shieldstun to work with for pressure.

what? ive never lost to a jab with falling uair lol. also lack of hitbox below him?!?! what?!? its a falling uair thats the point of it. and while it does provide the least shieldstun, it also is fox's best shieldpoke option (drill might be better at shieldpoking in general but the benefits u get from landing a falling uair on a shielding opponent are huge)

basically, while i was exaggerating a bit when i said use it all the time, it clearly has its place imo. makes punishes so much worse, and sometimes its just the only move that you can start a combo with; think of scenarios where you shine out of shield to get someone off you, and imagine whether you could replace it with a full jump falling uair.

the main key that makes it great is how much damage you get off any combo that begins from it. i think youre virtually guaranteed 40% unless they di the initial uair, which NO ONE does. oftentimes i just kill people starting from a falling uair.

another reason its devastating is how much more it hurts than the traditional punishes you'd do in similar situations. a good example is when i drill someone's shield, l-cancel it but don't shine, then full jump falling uair. your opponent CANT grab this but almost every non-spacey player will put a grab there assuming you missed a shine, and the uair will hit the grab everytime (obviously). so essentially, they're expecting to get hit by a shine at worst and they end up taking a huge combo starting with a falling uair

and thanks for the compliments vs jman guys, i was devastated after that set lol, i wanted to 2-0 the best fox player in a ditto

 

[Strong Badam]

there is no hitbox below it.

 

[chillindude829]

yea i guess i worded that badly, i meant if u use it falling it doesnt need to have a hitbox below it

 

[Strong Badam]

it can be beat out by jabs, but it'd be rare for that to happen as most people don't think of that in that situation. shine or dd grab is like the best thing against it

 

[Sinji]

there is no hitbox below it.

Gud point.

Since it has no hit box below it, I prefer using falling uair instead of uair as an approach.

Drill is the best option for an approach.

 

[Palpi]

No it's not.

 

[-ACE-]

Lozr has always been a big fan of falling uair.

 

[ChivalRuse]

yea i guess i worded that badly, i meant if u use it falling it doesnt need to have a hitbox below it

If you can land the uair, then sure. But if you falling uair an alert person, they can easily just anti air it, because of its awful [read: nonexistent] hitbox below.

 

[Sinji]

No it's not.

So what do you think would be the best approach?

Nair?

Dair gives you a free shield pressure if your tech skill is on point.

 

[Strong Badam]

why shield when i can DD grab it?

 

[Palpi]

You can also DI out of dair.

 

[Sinji]

Tru. you can Di out of it.

I guess nair is the best Arial approach.

 

[battousai555]

LOL @ the idea of a "best" approach. It all depends on stage positioning and what your opponent expects you're going to do, m i rite?

 

[Lovage]

yeah pointless discussion imo LOL

all the aerials are hella good and have a lot of ways to use them, there's no best

 

[Strong Badam]

LOL @ the idea of a "best" approach. It all depends on stage positioning and what your opponent expects you're going to do, m i rite?

this post rly. there's no be all end all aerial that works the best in every situation or set of situations lol. this isn't Donkey Kong

 

[Sinji]

This may seem like a stupid question but when you upsmash oos, do you use cstick up or up A?

Any advice?

 

[battousai555]

This may seem like a stupid question but when you upsmash oos, do you use cstick up or up A?

Any advice?

I use the c-stick because I think it's a lot easier, but that's just me.

My advice is to do what works for you, bro!

 

[unknown522]

Winner's Finals of Raynex vs me is up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa-7SuqI1pE

also, our teams GFs vs The Lake and Nakamaru set is up as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppkDWxB74p4

also, weon-x vs KrazyKrox (from west Virginia):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4JfeMJOVeI

 

[Palpi]

For just normal jc upsmashes I use up+a, but I use cstick for oos.

 

[Wenbobular]

I Cstick most (all?) of the time unless I actually want to charge it

 

[ChivalRuse]

Who doesn't c-stick smash attacks? If you don't, it makes wavedash -> smash a bit more difficult to time.

 

[RaynEX]

HOPE 3, **** yeah!!!! I'm down.

I think uair is the type of move that can help add mental stress onto the opponent in order to win a match. Instead of a nair->usmash, since you have the lead you uair and make a call on how they are coming down and risk not maximizing damage in order to beat your opponent in his own head. I don't think this style is for everyone but certain styles could really take advantage of this.

I don't think this is how chillin uses it, just my thoughts xD

I see where you're coming from. I can respect that.

But I prefer setting up less ambiguous situations. I don't like having good combo positioning and tossing it away for a 'maybe'. I'd rather just knock them horizontally off the stage early for a solid edge-guard or continue the combo until I can utilt / uthrow and knock them off the stage.

I was talking to Unknown about this just today actually. Against Marth / Peach / Sheik I like chucking them above me and stalking them from below as they fall. It seems to work better in those match-ups. Whiffed moves are easy to see and punish because they are floatier than the other top tiers. Since two of those characters rely heavily on their broken edge game they tend to retreat there on their way down. This makes predicting their flight path much easier.

When it comes to Fox / Falco / Falcon, I'd much rather chuck them right off the stage. My main concern is that if they're above me and I guess wrong, they'll be on my *** in a split second with either lasers or fast dashes. If they're offstage, I have a better chance punishing their linear recoveries or stage landings. Its the only time quick, sporadic fastfallers experience moments of predictability which we can exploit and punish. Especially in the case of Fox / Falco / Falcon, predictability = weakness.

this also works vs virtually anyone that you edgehog and force onto the stage

you've never pushed someone shielding on a platform off with w/e aerial (i also use uair for this part LOL) then gone into a falling uair as they're falling off the platform? that works beautifully

you wouldnt ever really use it for horizontal approach, but i think you're overlooking the aspect of when someone is shieldpressuring you/staying next to you in some way. i talked about this before when we were talking about the falco matchup; its one of the best tools to get around falco's shiled pressure, and sometimes also fox. trust me, very few people are familiar enough with it to be able to time a shine or utilt to beat you out (its very difficult to time those to beat a falling uair)

what? ive never lost to a jab with falling uair lol. also lack of hitbox below him?!?! what?!? its a falling uair thats the point of it. and while it does provide the least shieldstun, it also is fox's best shieldpoke option (drill might be better at shieldpoking in general but the benefits u get from landing a falling uair on a shielding opponent are huge)

basically, while i was exaggerating a bit when i said use it all the time, it clearly has its place imo. makes punishes so much worse, and sometimes its just the only move that you can start a combo with; think of scenarios where you shine out of shield to get someone off you, and imagine whether you could replace it with a full jump falling uair.

the main key that makes it great is how much damage you get off any combo that begins from it. i think youre virtually guaranteed 40% unless they di the initial uair, which NO ONE does. oftentimes i just kill people starting from a falling uair.

another reason its devastating is how much more it hurts than the traditional punishes you'd do in similar situations. a good example is when i drill someone's shield, l-cancel it but don't shine, then full jump falling uair. your opponent CANT grab this but almost every non-spacey player will put a grab there assuming you missed a shine, and the uair will hit the grab everytime (obviously). so essentially, they're expecting to get hit by a shine at worst and they end up taking a huge combo starting with a falling uair

-Pushing a shielding opponent off a platform and uairing is a great idea. Nair leads into grab for me pretty consistently, but I'll definitely give uair a shot and see where it takes me.

-As Strongbad clearly demonstrated, there is no hitbox underneath the uair. The jab was simply an example of a random move that could stuff it. If you're coming from above and I know you're a player that doesn't like to double jump bait and has a penchat for uair, all I have to do is toss out an utilt (which will very easily cut through a falling uair). If I miss and you double jump bait or something, no risk on my end because utilt is so fast. If I hit, combos for days. I do have to agree though, that uair shieldpokes ALOT more than Fox's other aerials do, and it IS pretty damn consistent.

-Using fullhop uair in the same situations you'd use shine OOS wouldn't work IMO. The purpose of shine OOS is for the speed + invincibility. Its usually used in between shine JC aerials against spacies, to beat out the aerial that would have otherwise put you back into shield pressure. If you jump out of your shield in an attempt to falling uair, you wouldn't be using a near 'instant' hitbox to alleviate the pressure, and you'll be hit on your way up. Thus giving your opponent the hit they've been working towards, freely. I can't say I agree with it being as good of a panic button as good ol' shine OOS.

-Yeah it definitely sets up good damage, no disagreement there lol

-If you dair an opponent's shield and lcancel, you're at negative frames. You're opponent can ALWAYS grab you in this situation, provided they time the grab correctly. As we all know, the only way to escape this is to shine. When you say you dair, lcancel and jump, my first though was "this is terrible, they can already grab you anyways if you don't shine...but now you jump..they can grab you on your way up!"

BUT

its a cool little mindgame if they expect the shine to hit their shield and wait for it. Now they're sitting in shield and you're up above them. They have no idea what the **** you're doing. My issue is its REALLY, REALLY risky. Most players don't have that kind of respect for pressure. They spam grab on anything, so I'm scared I'd be grabbed if I omitted the shine and jumped instead. But if its an effective mix-up for you than more power to you braaah