Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[BBQTV]

Over 450 pages later and people are still making stupid points in their own defense.

I know give it a rest 450 thats outrageous

 

[AvaricePanda]

Regarding "overrating characters", that's why you look at both boards (which is what I've been doing).

Doesn't always work. What if one board is rediscussing a character, and one board hasn't discussed the match-up since 6 months ago?

Regarding match ups being "out-dated," if the tier list can only be updated twice a year then the character boards are at no fault unless they do go more than a year without changing things.

6 months can be and is still outdated. Match-ups can change constantly.

How can it mostly be theory when it's a collection of many people's experiences with the character? Under the scientific definition, a theory is exactly that, a large amount of data collected by a large amount of people that points to a single conclusion (ex; the theory of evolution) and that's exactly what the match ups are because every match they fight with a certain character is a "test", not guess work. Now, you could create a hypothesis about a certain match up before a fight occurs but, under the method I mentioned before, it's either going to be proven right or wrong by the collection of the whole.

But that's assuming you have good match-up discussion though. Match-up discussion for some character boards or instances can be good, and other times you have, "Well I never have a problem with R.O.B." "Yeah plus he's really easy to kill," or other generic statements such as that.

It's why you have to also check the match-up discussion when you look at a match-up ratio and see if you're really convinced. A lot of the time, the discussion is good enough. Sometimes, it can be really bad.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Okay, you're now officially an *******.
I'm not even going to bother responding to you anymore.

*lights a cigarette* The biggest. If you're going to get emotionally involved in a debate then it's best not even to debate at all. Also, if you had bothered to read the rest of my post then you would have seen where I was going with that. Here, I'll make myself cry a little bit on the inside too, I'm just as unreliable for match up information because the state I live in doesn't even have big tournaments and you basically have to drive at least 2-4 hours to get to one and even then they are only about once a year. *stabs himself with a pencil with a cotton swab taped at the end* See, now my ego's been crushed and I can even barely function; I might as well be comatose.

 

[Red Arremer]

*lights a cigarette* The biggest. If you're going to get emotionally involved in a debate then it's best not even to debate at all. Also, if you had bothered to read the rest of my post then you would have seen where I was going with that. Here, I'll make myself cry a little bit on the inside too, I'm just as unreliable for match up information because the state I live in doesn't even have big tournaments and you basically have to drive at least 2-4 hours to get to one and even then they are only about once a year. *stabs himself with a pencil with a cotton swab taped at the end* See, now my ego's been crushed and I can even barely function; I might as well be comatose.

No. You're being a *****. That's what you are. You twisted my words around 180° and think I'll even think of responding to you?
JFYI, one of our best players has placed 17th at Genesis. He probably would've placed higher if he wouldn't have concentrated on Melee (the finals of Melee were going on during the Brawl events, so he was definitely more concentrated on Melee).

So stating that Europe has no good players is disrespectful and the worst statement you could ever make. You're being an insulting ******* to a whole region.

But yea, go back to your Online Tournaments, they're so much more "fierce" and competitively important than European tournaments.

 

[Alus]

Over 450 pages later and people are still making stupid points in their own defense.

You avatar goes so well with that post...

 

[BBQTV]

I haven't voted im thinking of voting no to the banning of MK but still anyone have something to say about this

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I haven't voted im thinking of voting no to the banning of MK but still anyone have something to say about this

uh....theres like 460 some pages, go read through all of it

it'll give you more chest hairs

 

[swordgard]

No. You're being a *****. That's what you are. You twisted my words around 180° and think I'll even think of responding to you?
JFYI, one of our best players has placed 17th at Genesis. He probably would've placed higher if he wouldn't have concentrated on Melee (the finals of Melee were going on during the Brawl events, so he was definitely more concentrated on Melee).

So stating that Europe has no good players is disrespectful and the worst statement you could ever make. You're being an insulting ******* to a whole region.

But yea, go back to your Online Tournaments, they're so much more "fierce" and competitively important than European tournaments.

No offence, i like europe. But from what i can see, online produced better players than europe or any actual state.

 

[BBQTV]

I think i'll vote no im not reading 460 pages

 

[Sosuke]

The OP is the only thing you need to read before voting.

 

[Red Arremer]

No offence, i like europe. But from what i can see, online produced better players than europe or any actual state.

I doubt people who play purely online are better than Europeans that play offline.

Discarding skill of Europeans while not even having played them is awful.

 

[BBQTV]

The OP is the only thing you need to read before voting.

yeah read it and the no banning MK is better in my opinion if MK gets bannd i'll quit brawl

 

[Fatmanonice]

No. You're being a *****. That's what you are. You twisted my words around 180° and think I'll even think of responding to you?
JFYI, one of our best players has placed 17th at Genesis. He probably would've placed higher if he wouldn't have concentrated on Melee (the finals of Melee were going on during the Brawl events, so he was definitely more concentrated on Melee).

So stating that Europe has no good players is disrespectful and the worst statement you could ever make. You're being an insulting ******* to a whole region.

But yea, go back to your Online Tournaments, they're so much more "fierce" and competitively important than European tournaments.

Wait... I thought you weren't going to respond anymore? *sigh* You still don't get it, I'm referring to your country, not your whole continent. I know you guys have the whole "European Union" thing but it's not all completely united yet so there's really no point in grouping it all together just to try to increase your say in this situation. Like with me, I can't say "there's no big tournaments in the Midwest", but I can say "there really aren't any big tournaments in Missouri." Habba Jeeba Joe. Still, you seem to think that I'm suggesting that my say in match ups is more important (which I've said twice now that I'm not) so basically this has disolved into an issue of a bruised ego on one side and a guy who's wondering what to eat for lunch on the other. Also, I've personally been called inferior by Mew2king (considered the best Brawl player in the world) himself simply because I play online, do you really think you can hurt me by one sarcastic comment? It's going to be okay Fox. Turn that frown upside down and I'll see you later today. Oh and, if you don't, I'll just flood your PM box until you do purely out of spite.

 

[Sosuke]

Fmoi, stop being a jerk.

 

[momochuu]

No offense to you, Spadefox, but you kinda said yourself that there aren't many good Brawl players in your region.

 

[Alus]

No offence, i like europe. But from what i can see, online produced better players than europe or any actual state.

OMG

It's people that go to tourneys and get a decent fraction of practice from online.

People cant play just online and get good...
If these type of players are lucky they may make it to the "so-so" level...

Good players still go to tourneys.

No offense to you, Spadefox, but you kinda said yourself that there aren't many good Brawl players in your region.

Just because he said it doesn't mean its true!

Shutting up...

 

[swordgard]

I doubt people who play purely online are better than Europeans that play offline.

Discarding skill of Europeans while not even having played them is awful.

I remember tons of goods player coming from online play only/mostly.


Ally, holy, mero, anti, me, sanoscy, krystedez, silverdoc, haloman....


Need i to continue? There are more online pros than europe has. Simple as that.

 

[Alus]

I remember tons of goods player coming from online play only/mostly.


Ally, holy, mero, anti, me, sanoscy, krystedez, silverdoc, haloman....


Need i to continue? There are more online pros than europe has. Simple as that.

...


My post :_:

I'm so ignored...

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fmoi, stop being a jerk.

If anything, I'm only acting like this to further highlight how he got too emotionally involved in the debate and how he was basically skydiving to conclusions by not reading everything I wrote. You know what they say, who ever angers you controls you so unless he likes the idea of me borderline laughing my head off thousands of miles away then he really ought to try calming down. As said in the past, I don't make enemies here because it's pointless especially when I'll never see a vast majority of you in real life. Really, the last time I was this big of a jerk was when I tried to make Kyari feel guilty for convincing Ankoku for shutting down the character rankings thread because it "reinforced the idea that Metaknight was too good in the current state of Brawl" and tried to convince Ankoku to put it back up again. If he thinks this is something personal then that's his problem. I can be a pure sociopath or the most empathatic person you'll ever meet, I'm goofy like that.

 

[swordgard]

...


My post :_:

I'm so ignored...

You do realize alot of these didnt ever go to tourneys, then went and beat known pros?


Sanoscy beat chu at his first tourney.

 

[Red Arremer]

No offense to you, Spadefox, but you kinda said yourself that there aren't many good Brawl players in your region.

Of course, since Europe doesn't have many players to begin with. My own country still is a child when it comes to tournaments, but the better players in my country still go to international tournaments and place well.
So while the amount of good players is lower, those we have and go to tournaments (I didn't have the chance to go to a bigger tournament yet, unfortunately) actually are good.

@swordgard:
Online may be good for practicing, but I think that saying Online (alone) brings out better players than the whole European region is BS. Sorry. I know that Ally, HolyNightmare, Fiction and other pros and good players have started online, but they still have learned the most from tournaments. Saying that it was only online that made them so good is inaccurate.

@FMOI:
The only thing that angers me is someone says I'm angry. Just because I point out that you're being an ******* for disregarding the whole European region and being all high and mighty because I say that you're being an ******* it doesn't mean I'm angry.
No offense, but you're really really really being an *******.

I would like this discussion about Europe to stop, though.

 

[Sosuke]

He was being as emotional as you were, so there's no point in trying to provoke.

 

[swordgard]

Of course, since Europe doesn't have many players to begin with. My own country still is a child when it comes to tournaments, but the better players in my country still go to international tournaments and place well.
So while the amount of good players is lower, those we have and go to tournaments (I didn't have the chance to go to a bigger tournament yet, unfortunately) actually are good.

@swordgard:
Online may be good for practicing, but I think that saying Online (alone) brings out better players than the whole European region is BS. Sorry. I know that Ally, HolyNightmare, Fiction and other pros and good players have started online, but they still have learned the most from tournaments. Saying that it was only online that made them so good is inaccurate.

@FMOI:
The only thing that angers me is someone says I'm angry. Just because I point out that you're being an ******* for disregarding the whole European region and being all high and mighty because I say that you're being an ******* it doesn't mean I'm angry.
No offense, but you're really really really being an *******.

I would like this discussion about Europe to stop, though.

I think i would know. Holy and ally are from my region and got good online, fiction did get good offline mostly. Meroknight, sanoscy, me , krystedez and many others got good online only.


Seriously how can you even judge, i spend my whole week on allisbrawl, you assume that

A) They got online
B) Did meh at tourneys
C) Then got good
D) Started placing at tourneys


Fact is, alot of online players did this.


A) They got online.
B) They got good online.
C) They beat known pros at tourneys
D) Then barely improved compared to what they did online.
E) Continue on placing<<<<<You assumed this is where they got good.


Seriously, i never see you on allisbrawl or gamebattles, you dont know the online community, so dont act like you do. Yuna told me nobody gets good playing only online, fact is, alot of people who cant go to tourneys train online all the time only to beat known pros.


EDIT: Fixed for innacurate sentences due to me being constantly interrupted by parents >.>

 

[Fatmanonice]

@FMOI:
The only thing that angers me is someone says I'm angry. Just because I point out that you're being an ******* for disregarding the whole European region and being all high and mighty because I say that you're being an ******* it doesn't mean I'm angry.
No offense, but you're really really really being an *******.

I would like this discussion about Europe to stop, though.

Well, considering I'm looking at thee words made up of nothing but asterisks and how you came out three times in an attempt to personally insult me, it wouldn't be fair that I didn't have plenty of evidence to say otherwise. Also, I'm only as high and mighty as you want me to be. "You think you're better than me", more often than not, is a statement made when person A feels inferior to person B, not when person B is trying to push a sense of superiority on person A. It's a psychological thing. As I already said, I wasn't trying to insult you, your country, your continent, your planet (wait... back up...), I was just stating how things are. Weren't you the one who told me that you were basically put on the SBR as a form of affirmative action so that Europe would at least have some say in a SBR vastly dominated by American players? Weren't you the one who told me that, like me, your area (country in this case) practically never has noteworthy tournaments and that, also like me, you have to travel quite a bit of distance to find one? Weren't you the one who told me that although you never really ranked in tournaments, you believed that you were a vaulable assest to the SBR because you were decently knowledgable about Smash in general? Add all three of these things up and it's safe to say that I said nothing wrong in my previous statement.

We've been over this before when I questioned your creditentials for being in the SBR about a month ago, I have nothing against you. I will never meet you in real life so, all in all, there's no point to hold a grudge so I hope, for at least the sake of keeping this thread from becoming more derailed then it already has, that you consider adopting the same mentality.

 

[Sosuke]

I said you should stop being a jerk

that wasn't personally insulting you

he did the same thing with a bad word


it just sounded worse because your statements were directed at him

 

[Red Arremer]

@swordgard:
Okay, let me rephrase that.
I wasn't trying to debunk the people who start to train online and do well in offline tournaments, too. Considering this, it'd be silly, seeing how one of the world's best players (Ally) came directly from online into the offline tournament scene and already was good when he started from there.

What I mean is that - regarding the competitive side of playing, and discussions about them - do you really think that online is equally good as offline?
People loathe Online Brawl for a reason, it's because the setting there is different. It's still Brawl, and it's not as different as, say, Doubles, but there still are differences in terms of gameplay that aren't neglectable.
Hell, even several characters perform better or worse in Online play than in Offline play, best example are precision-based characters like Zero Suit Samus, who utterly sucks online because she heavily relies on timed button inputs.

Just coming in here and saying "online players are better than Europe lol" is pretty... uhm... well... I dunno? Insulting, maybe? Yea, that's pretty accurate here.
That was my only gripe.

 

[swordgard]

@swordgard:
Okay, let me rephrase that.
I wasn't trying to debunk the people who start to train online and do well in offline tournaments, too. Considering this, it'd be silly, seeing how one of the world's best players (Ally) came directly from online into the offline tournament scene and already was good when he started from there.

What I mean is that - regarding the competitive side of playing, and discussions about them - do you really think that online is equally good as offline?
People loathe Online Brawl for a reason, it's because the setting there is different. It's still Brawl, and it's not as different as, say, Doubles, but there still are differences in terms of gameplay that aren't neglectable.
Hell, even several characters perform better or worse in Online play than in Offline play, best example are precision-based characters like Zero Suit Samus, who utterly sucks online because she heavily relies on timed button inputs.

Just coming in here and saying "online players are better than Europe lol" is pretty... uhm... well... I dunno? Insulting, maybe? Yea, that's pretty accurate here.
That was my only gripe.

Technically, online players are better than any state alone or europe, in terms of quantity vs quality analysis. This is completely normal as you can get a huge amount of players playing together in a slightly different setting in order to improve. Online players still come to their respective countries, but if we took online players as a whole "nation", they would probably go about even with USA. And by online players i mean people who still continue to play online to improve today. Overall, we cannot compete with USA in terms of pure numbers of pro, but with Europe most definitly(you have few pros, you said it yourself). It isnt exactly fair as online players can come from anywhere >.<

 

[Red Arremer]

Technically, online players are better than any state alone or europe, in terms of quantity vs quality analysis. This is completely normal as you can get a huge amount of players playing together in a slightly different setting in order to improve. Online players still come to their respective countries, but if we took online players as a whole "nation", they would probably go about even with USA. And by online players i mean people who still continue to play online to improve today. Overall, we cannot compete with USA in terms of pure numbers of pro, but with Europe most definitly(you have few pros, you said it yourself). It isnt exactly fair as online players can come from anywhere >.<

Then I misunderstood you, am sorry and glad we could clear this up.

 

[Alus]

nvm Off topic:

Life sucks

discuss...

 

[NeoZero]

Agreed

10suicides

 

[Red Arremer]

Definitely, yes.

/wrist

Also, I think I don't have anything anymore to add in this thread. It's been circling since the very first day, and both sides are incredibly stubborn. Some people are even delusional. It's become to the point where both sides are hardly debating, but mostly shooting insults at each other or repeat the same chow for the over 9000th time.
Not to mention the tremendous amounts of Off-Topic.

So yea. I'll still read, but I won't post anymore. <.<

 

[Fatmanonice]

As I always tell the new people who enter my tournaments, it's a different battleground and most people aren't willing to fully adjust to it because they have been dealing with the opposite for a decade. Truth be told, online really isn't that bad unless, like someone else said, you are playing with someone who heavily relies on spacing like ZSS or Marth (and even then he still does fairly well in competitions). There's definately a month/two month period where playing online feels freakishly awkward and you find yourself SDing or completely frustrated because some things that you normally do offline don't work online which is why many people have come to the conclusion that online Brawl is borderline unplayable. The timing becomes faster for chain grabs which makes them easier to escape and moves like Metaknight's uair actually have some landing lag so, in some regards, online actually has more balance in some areas than offline. Somethings are better, somethings are worse. All in all though, it's simply another way of playing.

Also, it's been shown that, despite it once being argued that online play makes you worse, it actually helps you with your prediction skills (thanks to lag) and how to quickly come up with a Plan B if something doesn't work (thanks to button input lag that sometimes occurs).

 

[POKE40]

nvm Off topic:

Life sucks

discuss...

What's so hot about being dead?

 

[xDD-Master]

Cant we just all be friends ._. xD

The SBR should just put the following phrase in their ruleset:

"The Tournament Organizer might ban MK, but he doesnt have to"

Something like that. Then everything would be fine...

Nobody has to go to tourneys where MK isnt banned. Maybe there should also be some bigger tournaments with MK banned (HOBO is already good, but maybe some 100+ tournaments)

Just a simple idea <,<

 

[Sosuke]

The TO might ban anything, but he/she doesn't have to.

This is like, common sense. >_>

 

[Fatmanonice]

The more I think about it, the more I dislike this being the final community poll regarding this. To me, taking the community out of the equation kind of says "We're sorry, we don't think you're informed enough to make a reasonable decision that will affect how you play this game for the rest of its lifespan." I mean, I'm kind of bugged that Hylian and Alphazealot (the two guys who basically "hire" all SBR members) both support the anti-ban side AND that it requires a 2/3 vote to pass when the community itself is only worth 2 votes. With what I already said, the community's vote for a pro-ban is already negated from the get-go so I'm sitting here, drumming my fingers and already annoyed that I can't get my wii's wifi to work, thinking why even bother doing four polls in the first place when the end result is just the community being cut from the equation, regardless of which side they support?

 

[Alus]

What's so hot about being dead?

No suffering

 

[ShinoBee]

I'm actually gonna have to side with SBR about the 2/3 vote.

I don't want to deal with a whine fest at a tournament just because a character isn't banned and is "preventing" you from winning... As I said before, the game is still just a year old. There's still so much to do and discover.

That and no one at my school uses MK (since they think Bowser is best character for some reason >_>), hell we had a Ness win a tournament before.

 

[Alus]

F**K S**T!!

I thought that we were done!

 

[ShinoBee]

Nope. Not done.