Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[etecoon]

pierce why are you so ****ing cocky

you're like g-reg levels of cocky

**** asking why he's so cocky, I want to know why He Capitalizes Every Word Like This WTF, it hurts to look at

 

[Palpi]

seriously dude

seriously?

you're not even that good. didn't you lose to like, ****ing, some 10 year old fox player? get out of here.

For one thing that fox player is very good. 2. Inui would probably beat him atleast 6 out of 10.

who are you?

 

[adumbrodeus]

http://allisbrawl.com/medals.aspx?id=4424

lol owned.

Perfect time to pull out Edgeworth.

Use a pic of him in that pose for your avie dude.

 

[ShadowLink84]

**** asking why he's so cocky, I want to know why He Capitalizes Every Word Like This WTF, it hurts to look at

The original post had none of that, it was the quoting afterwards that was done in all caps.

 

[Inui]

Edit: That's a ****load of medals lol.

I have the most on AllIsBrawl, followed by SK92 with 99. We both have the most by far. It's because I'm active and always score medals in doubles, **** low tier events, and have a lot of singles medals as well. :3

I got like 2 or 3 from Wi-Fi tournaments.

 

[Palpi]

**** asking why he's so cocky, I want to know why He Capitalizes Every Word Like This WTF, it hurts to look at

People who are always correct have to capitalize everything. Pierce just happens to be right all the time.

Lol pierce, that isn't a joke

 

[stingers]

that is a lot of medals. lol

i wish NC had that many tournaments =)

Pierce just happens to be right all the time.

Isn't he Pro-Ban? LMAO

 

[Divinokage]

I have the most on AllIsBrawl, followed by SK92 with 99. We both have the most by far. It's because I'm active and always score medals in doubles, **** low tier events, and have a lot of singles medals as well. :3

I got like 2 or 3 from Wi-Fi tournaments.

*sigh* I kinda of wished I lived inside the US right now.. so I can go to tournaments easier lol.

 

[Sosuke]

I've come to realize that calling Inui cocky is like calling Scrooge McDuck cheap.


So?

 

[Allied]

That...wasn't Pierce's doing. It happened when the person that quoted him replied in all caps. It automatically does that to prevent "shouting." It's a crappy forum feature that shouldn't even be on, but w/e.



Incorrect! My place is at the top of doubles and hosting. Your place is beneath my boot, filling my wallet with your entry fee!

If I am nothing but a tier *****, explain my consistent dominance in low tier tournaments.

That is called being talented and diverse, fool.

Who cares if you met me IRL? The sad thing is, you know me and who I am, and I have no idea who you are. It is because you are nobody and I am somebody.

ROFL the sad thing about this is its true

inui too good LOL

anyway alot of u people think u know it all
but u dont
<3

 

[Inui]

*sigh* I kinda of wished I lived inside the US right now.. so I can go to tournaments easier lol.

I wish you lived here, too. I'd be more encouraged to play Melee, especially if you were near me.

Magus doesn't come over enough.

I've come to realize that calling Inui cocky is like calling Scrooge McDuck cheap.


So?

roflmao

 

[Morrigan]

Incorrect! My place is at the top of doubles and hosting. Your place is beneath my boot, filling my wallet with your entry fee!

If I am nothing but a tier *****, explain my consistent dominance in low tier tournaments.

That is called being talented and diverse, fool.

Who cares if you met me IRL? The sad thing is, you know me and who I am, and I have no idea who you are. It is because you are nobody and I am somebody.

And outside Smash you are...who? Grow up.

 

[etecoon]

The original post had none of that, it was the quoting afterwards that was done in all caps.

that's strange o_O I thought about looking back to find it but after reading the first 2,000 posts of this I started getting lazy and now just wander in from time to time

uh ban/don't ban meta knight

 

[Divinokage]

I wish you lived here, too. I'd be more encouraged to play Melee, especially if you were near me.

Magus doesn't come over enough.



roflmao

Well.. having Ganon dittos experience is near useless lol.. the only exception is if you have to fight other Ganon in tournament.

 

[stingers]

inui got banned xFD

don't ban mk, he's not broken!

and i know some mod is gonna ban me for making this post...off topic or something =)

 

[momochuu]

Well...****. Guess he got banned.

 

[SnowballBob33]

Nothing personal, it just looked like a lot of people were getting upset towards you. It didn't necessarily look like you were going to break out in tears, you just looked sorry.

back on topic...MK is the best

 

[fkacyan]

that is a lot of medals. lol

i wish NC had that many tournaments =)


Isn't he Pro-Ban? LMAO

Most of those tourneys aren't NJ tourneys. He travels quite a bit.

 

[V]

And outside Smash you are...who? Grow up.

Totally agree. Even M2K doesn't act like this. Plus, what happened to talking about why MK should or shouldn't be banned?

 

[Divinokage]

Holy crap.. Inui got banned.. really??? Oh and I'm a Smash Master now yay.

 

[Allied]

inui prolly got banned for ruining that kids life LOL

 

[Rykoshet]

some of us Did read all the pages, I also did. It is the only way to truly state a good opinion and support a side.

As much as I don't want to call out on my own crew member, saying that there is little evidence to back up the Ban is actually not accurate to say. If i had more time, i would post why Pierce, and you know that. But I am kind of in a busy moment, and maybe I will get back on that a bit later tonight.

I didn't read a gaddam thing before I just rushed in and dropped some kanawlij, that's just how I roll...

If something were worth bringing up in rebuttal it would have been rehashed.

 

[stingers]

thats what he gets for being cocky as ****

i mean ****, it's annoying as ****. he's so nerdy he thinks he's being clever by referencing phoenix wright like that. like jesus christ dude. i don't know why everyone rides his **** so much~~~

don't ban mk, he's not broken

 

[The 5th Horseman]

I've been reading this and then BOOM, Inui is banned. Now what will I read?

 

[Rykoshet]

thats what he gets for being cocky as ****

i mean ****, it's annoying as ****. he's so nerdy he thinks he's being clever by referencing phoenix wright like that. like jesus christ dude. i don't know why everyone rides his **** so much~~~

Because he makes people like you completely ignore the topic at hand and argue about whether or not he's good, which has NOTHING to do with anything at any point ever in the history of ALL CONVERSATION TO HAVE EVER TAKEN PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE.

 

[stingers]

cool story, bro

i said like 2000 posts ago that this topic is stupid, I'm only coming in here to...socialize.

oh, and to tell people not to ban mk, cuz he's not broken, at the bottom of my posts

 

[Kinzer]

Oh c'mon, why ban Inui?

He's not being questioned for a broken character, MK fits that criteria better and he still shouldn't be banned.

 

[AvaricePanda]

You can't claim Snake to beat MK either, as the next best placing Snake was UltimateRazer, losing to Havok's MK.

I understand (not exactly agree with, but understand) the rest of your logic except for this.

By stating this, you're implying that this one tournaments and these couple of sets each player played concisely determined match-ups. It implies that Razer and Havok are at equal levels of skill and both have equal knowledge into the MK vs. Snake match-up, and they played at the top of the possible match-up meta-game.

That doesn't happen.

One set can not determine a match-up. As aforementioned, it can support a claim but not prove anything. By saying that, "You can't claim Snake to beat MK because the next best placing Snake was Razer who lost to Havok," you're:

1) Assuming both players are at the top of the meta-game and know the ins and outs of the match-up, and no outside influences affected the match.
2) You're leaving out Ally again.

Whether or not the match-up is even or disadvantageous for Snake or whatever, I don't know. UltimateRazer getting 9th at Genesis doesn't say that it's a disadvantage for Snake though.

Point One response: If anything, Brawl really isn't about match ups against high tiers like other fighting games. For the past year, it's pretty much been how to beat Metaknight and how to beat Snake to a lesser degree. As I mentioned in my arguement, with Metaknight gone, Brawl would actually have a "circle" of 5-6 high tier characters that would probably be ontop of compettion (most likely Snake, Falco, Mr. Game and Watch, King Dedede, Wario, and maybe even Diddy Kong/Marth), kind of like Melee. Granted, some characters would have leads over others but I seriously doubt it would be as laughably bad as the gap between Metaknight and Snake now. As said, for a game like Brawl, that would be an enormous step forward.

Point Two response: Both the tournaments posted in Ankoku's thread and the "big" tournament results that the Amazing Ampharos posted earlier. With that being said, I've taken both into account.

Point Three response: Not bad but not adventagous either. Basically, with Metaknight, you can't truely ever put the match in your favor while the Metaknight player can manipulate things (mainly stages) to put the match further in thier favor.

Point Four response: That kind of the point, isn't it? Obviously, you can't just pick someone and win but the counterpick system kind of promises that if you work hard enough, you'll move closer to reaching the tier list ideal when it comes to match ups. For example, you know how to play ROB right, you shouldn't lose to the Ice Climbers. As mentioned by several different people, Metaknight side steps this. Against high level players, you can never counter Metaknight but he can counter you or at least push things farther in his favor by counterpicking the right stages like in the case of the Ice Climbers vs Metaknight. Regarding Wario and Snake, there are definately stages and strategies that counter them to a degree. Wario still has 10 people that can infinite him, about 4 or 5 people that can kill him out of a grab release, and can be outranged by characters like King Dedede, Snake, and Marth when played right. Snake can be juggled and, when characters are careful and don't try to go overboard, can be camped and chain grabbed by people like Falco, Pikachu, Olimar, King Dedede, and even ROB and Pit. Granted, it doesn't always put the mentioned characters at the advantage but it definately makes the match ups more manageable.

Point Five response: Because it's obvious and I've already stated twice where it shows this. Why do people ignore the elephant in the room when it comes to this? "Oh, it's not THAT bad." "Things will definately get better, just give it more time." Why does this keep going around in circles? It shows that you genuinelly have to outplay the Metaknight player to win if the players are about the same level in skill. Basically, it's almost always a difference of effort when you compare the two players because, as mentioned over and over like a broken record, you can't really ever push things in your favor with Metaknight, just try not to make things worse.

Point Six response: As you said yourself, you have to look at the situation as a whole and you can't bring up individuals victories and then declare "Metaknight's not a problem, see, this dude won this tournament." Under that logic, Mario is a Metaknight counter because theBoss8 usually beats them on a regular basis.

Point Seven response: Azen's probably the biggest player this year that left. Also, if you want to see a good number of people who have left offline Brawl, simply hang out in the Brawl+ thread for awhile or even the BBrawl and SSB4 discussion thread. Also, why does it matter if they are all well known? They still bolster the attendance of Brawl tournaments and, as said in an earlier post, this is definately important to support high-level competition. You can't have big tournaments with only the best of the best showing up. That's basically why we have a community in the first place. You can't make a human pyramid without a strong base of people holding up the people on top, you know?

Point Eight response: Makes unviable: Pikachu, Toon Link, ROB, Olimar, and arguably Pit.

Characters made less viable: Marth (although some argue he should be in the first category), Mr. Game and Watch, King Dedede, and the Ice Climbers.

Point Nine response:

Already addressed in point responses 3, 4, and 5.

Point 1 Response: I again want to ask, how and what exactly do you mean by, "Brawl's basically just become how to beat MK and Snake to a lesser extent?" Do you mean that's what's talked about the most in individual character board? Do you mean that's what people spend their most time doing at in person tournaments? Do you mean that's why character boards constantly look to propel their metagame and find new usages for the tools they already possess? What do you mean, "The game has turned into how to beat MK?"

For a week at a character board and during these, "lol ban MK" threads are the only times where the community is that focused on the MK match-up as a whole. Saying that's what all Brawl has become is just a statement that I can't believe because there's no proof behind it, and I have not seen it.

Point 2 Response: Okay.

Point 3 Response: Alright. However, being unable to put a permanent advantage on=/=breaks the CP system. If it's your CP, you can CP him to Halberd and go Snake, or FD and go Diddy/ICs, or Battlefield and go ICs, Even if whatever you CP him to isn't on paper your advantage, you're still able to put yourself into a better advantage that is at least even.

Point 4 Response: Refer to 3. You can counterpick MK on your counterpick, or at least get to even. There weren't really qualms with this in Melee with Fox having no consistent disadvantageous match-up. A retort will probably be something along the lines of, "They're different games with different mechanics!" True. But still, a character with no consistent bad match-ups existed, and the CP system and metagame didn't fall apart.

What you mentioned about Wario and Snake are match-up specific. Just because characters can infinite Wario doesn't mean he loses the match-ups. Just because people can juggle Snake doesn't mean he loses the match-ups where he gets juggled. I don't understand why you brought that up.

Point 5 Response: How is it obvious? When I say MK dominating mid-levels of play, I meant tournament results proving this. My part 6 response was trying to show that there are instances in mid levels of play where MKs lose, and somewhat frequently. I don't see why he'd be harder to manage at a mid-level of play. Match-up specifically, maybe, but as far as tournament results go, we don't see MK always taking the 30-40 person tournaments, which was what I was trying to explain.

Point 6 Response: See above. It wasn't to say, "Look, these people beat MK at a mid-level, ergo he's not a problem." I was trying to put in evidence via tournament results by saying that mid-level MKs get frequently beaten just as much as anyone else.

Point 7 Response: I thought Azen quit smash in general. Also, they don't really have to be known players, I guess saying tournament attending players would have been better. Most of the people who quit Brawl for Brawl+ or BBrawl quit because they didn't like the game Brawl in general, not specifically because of Meta Knight. I can't think of any people who quit the entire game specifically because of Meta Knight. I'm sure there might be some, but there's also the people who quit Brawl because of the infinites, or the lack of a common tech-skill layer, or the fact that BlazBlue came out and they wanted to play that more, etc.

Point 8 Response: lolllwuttttthurrr.

Makes unviable: Toon Link, in that list. Pikachu? Lolwut. MK isn't that bad of a match-up for Pikachu. He makes R.O.B. less viable if only because ZSS destroys him harder. Same with Olimar and Peach. Pit I honestly don't know about. Add Peach to this list.

Makes less viable: R.O.B., Marth. Game and Watch. Ice Climbers is just wrong, considering that they're one of the characters people speculate to go even with him.

Point 9 Response: My statement that, "It assumes that counterpicking characters is often used at high and even mid levels of play" wasn't really disproven, and was just worded around. Sure, MK is unique in the game in that you can't have a universal character counterpick against him, but you can still counterpick him, and given that in mid and high levels of play, the character counterpick system isn't used much, then it's a lot less important than many are making it sound.

 

[Allied]

thats what he gets for being cocky as ****

i mean ****, it's annoying as ****. he's so nerdy he thinks he's being clever by referencing phoenix wright like that. like jesus christ dude. i don't know why everyone rides his **** so much~~~

don't ban mk, he's not broken

U just got trolled bro

anyway

back to the topic at hand

pierced amazing or amazing?

 

[MasterDaveNo1]

the ban expires on august 3rd and inui doesn't really go on smashboards over weekends when has tournaments to attend to, lol

so it doesn't matter, and it'll be really shortlived

it was because 6 EXTREMELY weak and petty infractions piled up (because of the gay pro-ban thread in the sbr and hylian being too serious and giving him FOUR infractions at once)

 

[Rykoshet]

Trust me, it's obvious. The fact that mods are sitting around *****ing about people turning this into a social chat then completely ignore when someone actually does is ****ing laughable.

 

[Divinokage]

Because he makes people like you completely ignore the topic at hand and argue about whether or not he's good, which has NOTHING to do with anything at any point ever in the history of ALL CONVERSATION TO HAVE EVER TAKEN PLACE IN THE UNIVERSE.

Well is it right to say that the Brawl community is mostly consisting of youngsters of about let's say 14 to 17 years old right now?

 

[RDK]

Spoiler

And that's enough spam from me.

People who use the Classic Blue style deserve to be shot.

On topic, I have yet to see tournament proof of MK dominance worthy of a ban. In fact, let's take it slow; you don't even have to provide tournament evidence yet. Once you come up with a valid logical basis for why he should be banned, then we'll worry about reality.

 

[Rykoshet]

People who use the Classic Blue style deserve to be shot.

On topic, I have yet to see tournament proof of MK dominance worthy of a ban. In fact, let's take it slow; you don't even have to provide tournament evidence yet. Once you come up with a valid logical basis for why he should be banned, then we'll worry about reality.

Impossible to do if you're not actually reading.

Which you're not.

 

[The 5th Horseman]

People who use the Classic Blue style deserve to be shot.

On topic, I have yet to see tournament proof of MK dominance worthy of a ban. In fact, let's take it slow; you don't even have to provide tournament evidence yet. Once you come up with a valid logical basis for why he should be banned, then we'll worry about reality.

There we go. Back to the topic.

Thank you!

 

[Eddie G]

Ok, case closed. He got banned for acting the way he did. Too bad for him.

Now then, why don't we all break out everything we know about MK that can be exploited by certain characters in their respective matchup? It's not necessarily off topic because it pertains to MK and can potentially contribute to one of the sides' argument as we go along. I'll start us off...

With Peach: The fourth hit of her dair can break through the top of the tornado. She can lead into this by DIing up and out of the nado and into a float. Also, of course, the bomb/stitchface wrecks MKs priority on anything, unless he manages to catch it instead.

 

[MarKO X]

On topic, I have yet to see tournament proof of MK dominance worthy of a ban. In fact, let's take it slow; you don't even have to provide tournament evidence yet. Once you come up with a valid logical basis for why he should be banned, then we'll worry about reality.

valid logical basis for why he should be banned has been provided 432890432849324 times.

as well as valid logical basis for why he shouldn't be banned.

but yet, the fight continues.... dance puppets. Dance.

edit: sry about removing your red, i just wanted to get the pic out the way.... matter of fact, i'll put it back

 

[Reioumu]

If you vote yes, then you're pretty butthurt about losing to MK. What about Ally beating M2K at APEX and Genesis? This game is only a year old and they're gonna ban a character just because he's the best.
-Rei

 

[goodoldganon]

Point 7 Response: I thought Azen quit smash in general. Also, they don't really have to be known players, I guess saying tournament attending players would have been better. Most of the people who quit Brawl for Brawl+ or BBrawl quit because they didn't like the game Brawl in general, not specifically because of Meta Knight. I can't think of any people who quit the entire game specifically because of Meta Knight. I'm sure there might be some, but there's also the people who quit Brawl because of the infinites, or the lack of a common tech-skill layer, or the fact that BlazBlue came out and they wanted to play that more, etc.

I just stopped by to say he is basically right on the money for most of the people I have ever seen or talked to with my time working on Brawl+. Sure, MK being as good as he is is certainly a reason, but far from the main one. It's everything else that drove us away from Brawl. Even if MK was 'balanced' I'm sure Brawl+ would have been developed.

People who quit Brawl aren't doing so since MK is too good.

 

[RDK]

Impossible to do if you're not actually reading.

Which you're not.

Don't be ********. I've been here for all 4 threads, and pro-ban has yet to come up with anything close to proof.

Nice try though.