Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[ShadowLink84]

This topic needs heavy moderation.

 

[Zip.]

Sigh......

 

[Jalen]

I say no because he definitely gives me more of a challenge and more trouble than Snake. Keep him.

 

[SuSa]

I've been asked why I fight the Pro-Ban's side even though I vote against the ban.

Banning MK, if followed, would result in more Olimars, Dedede's, Marth's, and Falco's. 1 of which counters Snake, 1 of which counters Snake on his CP, meaning you must win game 1 and 3. If you lose game 1, then win on your CP, the D3 should win on his CP. This is bad.

Marth is my trouble matchup, although argued even - I've never gone even with any great Marth. (Bardull and mikeHaze wrecked my Snake.. it could be argued that they were simply out of my league at the time... lol)

Falco is just an annoying matchup, although I love facing them due to me loving the ease of the matchup <3 I'd rathers fight an MK then a Falco. I don't have to play 80% of the match crouching...

 

[P. O. F.]

The Anti Ban argument was poor.

The Pro Ban argument was strong.

End of discussion.

Also, I see Marth going top tier if MK is banned.

Think about it.

 

[noradseven]

Christ almighty, quit reposting this over and over again. If people don't care, they don't care. Quit acting like it's the most important response in this thread. You'll live if people don't respond. I've been on forums since 2001 and, trust me, you won't burst into flames in someone doesn't respond to one of your posts. If you have to, go out and smoke a cigarette or two to wind down.

don't worry someone did quote his posts

who you ask


answer : Himself

 

[fkacyan]

Amazing post from ChiboSempai:



My take on the Anti-Ban essay

Argument 1: MetaKnight is not broken

IDC isn't allowed in tourney play, invalid

Argument 2: Metaknight does not dominate the metagame

Top players and not actual results is not a statistical basis for dominance

Argument #3: The game is still growing and evolving

The only really valid argument here.

Argument #4: Implying that Metaknight breaks the counterpick system also implies that Brawl is a game based on counterpicking

This doesn't actually say anything that wasn't said before.

Argument #5: Metaknight’s extraneous circumstances are already resolved

seems to be addressing something not mentioned in this thread


Overall

There is a real lack of factual data in the Anti-Ban essay outside of tournament results. In terms of actually defining the character and analyzing him, there was practically nothing.

HINT TO CHIBO: Idealizations mean jack ****, all that matters is what actually happens.

Responses in bold.

 

[Sosuke]

Christ almighty, quit reposting this over and over again. If people don't care, they don't care. Quit acting like it's the most important response in this thread. You'll live if people don't respond. I've been on forums since 2001 and, trust me, you won't burst into flames in someone doesn't respond to one of your posts. If you have to, go out and smoke a cigarette or two to wind down.

I should repost this every 2 pages

 

[Cloud9157]

Oh he did bad! Why didn't you say so? This changes everything.

/sarcasm


And out of all three of those tournaments Evo was the smallest.

Well you said it was such a big deal that a MK didn't win a tourney, now you know why. M2K played nowhere near his top, and he lost to Ally easily because of it.

So because Snake, a character who is easily the second best and would replace MK with no questions asked, beat a MK, that should always mean something? Honestly, the Tier List prior to the current one had MK at 15.00 and Snake at 13.91. He is not that far off of MK's level of gayness-err, power.

 

[WaterTails]

The Anti Ban argument was poor.

The Pro Ban argument was strong.

End of discussion.

Also, I see Marth going top tier is MK is banned.

Think about it.

I know, I know, being objective is hard.

Also, at least five times in this thread, people have gone after you for stating your opinions as fact. Stop it.

Edit: At least explain why you thought pro-ban was stronger, other than "IT HAD MOAR WOREDS!""

 

[BOB SAGET!]

ok, pro ban and anti ban. Shut up. Some people are trying to lurk around here!

 

[ETWIST51294]

this thread is getting madd boring. cya.

 

[takeurlife2]

we should just make all MK players register so we know what exactly their powers are.

i think ill call this the registration act

wait what?

and LOL at people thinking marth will dominate with mk gone

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

The Anti Ban argument was poor.

The Pro Ban argument was strong.

End of discussion.

Also, I see Marth going top tier if MK is banned.

Think about it.

Just stop talking.

This is all you're going off of? I mean I understand using this if you don't have an opinion, (I went off that tbqh) but you can't use that as your only reasoning for banning/not banning MK. What if uses MK and would like to continue using him?

You're argument is the poor one.

 

[:mad:]

I think it's safe to say Bob Saget is just here to annoy everyone.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

Well you said it was such a big deal that a MK didn't win a tourney, now you know why. M2K played nowhere near his top, and he lost to Ally easily because of it.

So because Snake, a character who is easily the second best and would replace MK with no questions asked, beat a MK, that should always mean something? Honestly, the Tier List prior to the current one had MK at 15.00 and Snake at 13.91. He is not that far off of MK's level of gayness-err, power.

That is a stupid thing to say m2k was not playing bad, it was admitted STOP JOHNING FOR HIM

STOP
STOP
STOP

 

[AvaricePanda]

Do note I am anti ban



Um how does this refute the pro-ban argument in regards to MK's dominance?
MK is still an incredibly dominant character, Apex and Genesis does not change that at all.
Considering the fact that MK did take top 8 more so than any other character within the top 8, this alone indicates his capability.

It refutes the fact that his tournament results are growing, which shows the exact opposite of that.

Not only hat but you are using a player as reason for your argument.
We do not use the players. For one player's are human, if you watched the Apex and Genesis matches, M2K made mistakes that cost him the match. Do explain as to why a metaknight plyer should be getting spiked by Fair in a neutral position?

Frankly your argument ignores the many variables that contributed to Ally's win as well as those contributing to MK's dominance.

True. But as I've said earlier, they've had really close sets beforehand. And as I've said to other people, whether or not M2K himself won or not wouldn't have drastically, if at all changed the anti-ban vs. pro-ban debate. However, it's an example that with two top characters in a match-up that's slated by some to be clearly in MK's favor, the Snake won.

Yes I'm ignoring the player, but don't we always ignore the player variable when looking at tournament results and placings? I doubt anyone has gone through the time to check the bracket and each match of it, to see the match-ups, the skill level of the players, how healthy or alert they were, how many stupid mistakes they made, how close the matches were, etc.

To argue that, oh his dominance is declining, does not change the fact that Metaknight is dominating tournaments.

But I'm not arguing against MK dominating tournaments. He is the dominant and most used character in tournaments. My argument is specifically that his dominance is declining. Saying, "well he's still dominating tournaments," is ignoring my argument.

Saying that Ally won those two national tournaments does not validate your argument since he is a player not the character, this is the same for m2k.
Mistakes occur at high level play

Yes they do. But readabove about bracket and whatnot.

These results have a decent decline from other large tournaments such as hobo11 and CoT4 in the past, yet people are saying that MK's tournament results will only grow. They've shrunk. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that his tournament placings will get better.

Decent? How so? Is he showing a drastic decrease? Hardly, because there hasn't been much of a change in terms of dominance. Metaknight is still averaging over 20% of tournaments and still places extremely well where he outplaces everyone else including Snake.

To be expected from the best character in the game. There will always be a best option, or a dominating option. In MLG Melee days, you had Marth players taking the top spots of many of the events. To say that a character is broken or overpowered purely by the fact that they are the best placing character in tournaments isn't fair.

And while it may not be a drastic decrease, it's still a decrease. And there still isn't evidence to suggest that he will increase in dominance.

K now lets look at all the other times those players have lost to those other MK players.
How about how wyatt lost to tyrant's MK.
Or how Ally has lost to M2k's MK?
HOw about the fact they are HUMAN and make mistakes.
M2k getting spiked by Snake's laggy *** Fair?

Yes, these are human players. I'm not suggesting that these wins say, "HAY LOOK THIS IS AN ADVANTAGEOUS MATCH-UP BECAUSE THIS GUY BEAT THIS GUY ONE TIME." However, when top players beat or go even with other top players, it does support match-up.

The argument of, it hasn't happened, therefore it is not ban worthy is a TERRIBLE argument.
If I have a character who can OHKO you just by pressing A, does that mean we should wait to experience it before we ban it? NO.
Same with IDC.
Same with wall infinites. None of them ever were used to dominate tournaments but were banned in one manner or another.

Here's the thing; with air-camping and planking, we don't know that they're broken or overpowering. People are just assuming that they are, when they could or could not be. With IDC, you know that it can be used to stall the entire match once you have a percentage lead. With wall infinites, you know that one grab or attack sets up for death against the wall.

How much do we honestly know about air-camping and planking, and all character's options against it? Aside from some individuals maybe, not much. Banning it because we think it might be really bad in the future is bad.

ummm, the metagame will die? Since when?
It would only be a metagame that revolves around MK.
a.k.a over centralization.

Okay, they've been arguing that the metagame will be overcentralized to MK. Replace those words with the metagame dying or whatever. Still the same thing: evidence shows otherwise.

K. by that logic, we should allow a super broken character to exist simply cause he hasnt ***** the hell out of tournaments.

Saying that we should wait for it to be a problem is terrible as an argument.
We only wait in the event that it is controversial, o very difficult to discern if ban worthy or not.

Not, wait for it to be a problem.
We did not wait for Akuma.

This IS controversial and difficult to discern if ban-worthy or not. "Wait for it to be a problem" wasn't the best word usage, but in this specific situation it works. As it's difficult to determine whether MK could be overpowering and how overpowering, and he isn't an overcentralizing problem now, waiting is the best option instead of pre-emptively banning.

 

[noradseven]

I think it's safe to say Bob Saget is just here to be hillarious

there we go

 

[Ripple]

" I voted no ban because a MK didn't win apex or genesis"

that's ****ing stupid. I hate people who don't read or know anything about this argument

 

[BOB SAGET!]

I think it's safe to say Bob Saget is just here to annoy everyone.

true, and Grizzly Adams had a beard.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Responses in bold.

I swear when people do that hole bolding thing it annoys the ever living hell out of me. Seriously, it makes things take MUCH more time to respond to your argument.
Seriously, just multiquote.

IDC isn't allowed in tourney play, invalid/

Stop being stupid, if you had read his entire post, you would have understood that he mentioned DC, which is the extende cap, done by simply landing on the oundwith the cape. THis lets you stay in it longer. Its not capable of being banned and it lets MK escape several things that would harm him.

Read the entire thing.

Top players and not actual results is not a statistical basis for dominance

Wait what? So we should just ignore the placings of an MK user in the top 8 even though he isnt a top level MK? Re word that it sounds odd.

Let alone he did use top level players as an example. Ally and M2k

The only really valid argument here./quote]
Because you agree with it?
You really haven't done much in terms of arguing his point.

This doesn't actually say anything that wasn't said before

Then counter it? If the argument has fallacies show it.
Otherwise why respond?

seems to be addressing something not mentioned in this thread

Again, one liners.
Really if you are not willing to debate do not post.

HINT TO CHIBO: Idealizations mean jack ****, all that matters is what actually happens.

K, we should have waited for Akuma to dominate U.S. tournaments then. Great idea.

 

[GigaBowserXyZ]

argument same as always

 

[Falconv1.0]

The Anti Ban argument was poor.

The Pro Ban argument was strong.

End of discussion.

Also, I see Marth going top tier if MK is banned.

Think about it.

You're super cool elitist prick act only works if it produces lulz.

lrn2internet

 

[Cloud9157]

And now I remember why serious disscussion is sometimes non-existent here... Because people are bored and troll/flame. There are far more than enough people who could have a serious debate about this, but once again, it doesn't happen.

Whatever happens, I'll adapt. If he is banned, awesome, if not, I'll use Falco/Olimar or whoever I decide to use to try and beat him.

 

[noradseven]

Yep snake and marth will dominate this game just as bad if MK gets banned guaranteed.

" I voted no ban because a MK didn't win apex or genesis"

that's ****ing stupid. I hate people who don't read or know anything about this argument

state tournies ppl don't like MK but we deal with it, but at small local tournies jesus christ 1/2 the ppl play them then get totally *** ***** by me, and a few of my friends cause they don't know the match, just because they can beat all there friends with him they think he is broke don't forget ppl like that vote.

 

[hotgarbage]

I've been asked why I fight the Pro-Ban's side even though I vote against the ban.

Banning MK, if followed, would result in more Olimars, Dedede's, Marth's, and Falco's. 1 of which counters Snake, 1 of which counters Snake on his CP, meaning you must win game 1 and 3. If you lose game 1, then win on your CP, the D3 should win on his CP. This is bad.

Marth is my trouble matchup, although argued even - I've never gone even with any great Marth. (Bardull and mikeHaze wrecked my Snake.. it could be argued that they were simply out of my league at the time... lol)

Falco is just an annoying matchup, although I love facing them due to me loving the ease of the matchup <3 I'd rathers fight an MK then a Falco. I don't have to play 80% of the match crouching...

So you voted not to ban Metaknight because you think that his presence in the scene will personally benefit you as a player?

 

[PortCity]

It is disturbing how coherent, complete and clear the pro-ban argument is.

 

[SuSa]

So you voted not to ban Metaknight because you think that his presence in the scene will personally benefit you as a player?

And isn't that what everyone who is voting yes is doing?

"Ban MK so we don't have to play as him to win and overall benefits us because we don't need to (1) Learn Meta Knight or (2) Learn the matchup (3) Stop maining a **** character who has no chance against ____ anyways"

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I think it's safe to say Bob Saget is just here to annoy everyone.

I think that's why he was put on this Earth.

there we go

LOL. No.

 

[Flayl]

And isn't that what everyone who is voting yes is doing?

Oh wow, he walked right into that one. Props.

 

[Roxas M]

i think mk will not get banned.
even though there are more votes pro-ban it's up to the SBR-B.
and like other people have stated just about ever high-level brawler has a secondary mk in their back pocket just in case.
mk is the safe way to win tournaments. especially if your doing it for the money.(i'm not saying anyone is)

and it's pretty obvious that the pro-ban argument is better than through anti-ban argument.
and one of the most used defenses for not banning mk is that "the game is still evolving."
this is true. but think for a second. if the game is evolving won't mk evolve with it? with the increasing usage of mk more things may be found out about him faster than other characters. in the future mk may evolve to be a even bigger challenge. he may not get any easier to beat in the ever evolving metagame of brawl.
we found the IDC glitch and banned that from him. what else about him needs to get banned to make the game fair again?
i mean, everything is in his favor. no bad match-ups, no bad stages.
i'm surprised he wasn't banned earlier.

 

[noradseven]

And isn't that what everyone who is voting yes is doing?

"Ban MK so we don't have to play as him to win and overall benefits us because we don't need to (1) Learn Meta Knight or (2) Learn the matchup (3) Stop maining a **** character who has no chance against ____ anyways"

hi five bro, same reasoning only rather than hurt my character its more of a null effect, but still MK is funer to fight against than alot of other characters.

 

[BOB SAGET!]

I think that's why he was put on this Earth.



LOL. No.

and SOLIDS broken, like meta knight!

 

[SnowballBob33]

We can prove this with math.
Time it takes to learn counter MK 1/0 days
Time it takes to learn to use MK 0/1 days

MK *****, if you can't beat em, MK em.

90% of all people who don't want him banned use him and wouldn't know what to do if they had to learn matchups

MK is tabuu in disguise, he is so godly he has thousands of pages of text written about his power.
His supporters don't want their almighty father to go
If MK gets banned, they will do whatever it takes to make people pay for the crime they have done.

 

[Famous]

Yep snake and marth will dominate this game just as bad if MK gets banned guaranteed.

Marth wont dominate due to the fact that his metagame has no diversity...D3 will shoot back up solely to counter Snake....Falco/GaW will shoot up to counter D3...The list goes on...

 

[Esca]

Marth will dominate with MK gone.

I voted keep him. Either play him or quit.

Welcome to fighting games.

 

[a male platypus]

The anti-ban side just made me laugh. Honestly I use meta knight to cover everything my main can't do. Why? Because he's flawless, I just suck with him.

Ban him, for the sake of diversity in character Selection.

 

[MetaMasterMoe]

The truth is we all know how the MK poll is gonna end because sadly there are less decent players than lazy noobs.

 

[Kamikaze*]

This thread aint entertaining anymore.

 

[Ignatius]

Well... I voted. I... don't want to say which side I voted on, though.

Be strong, Polt! Bellsprout.

You voted pro-ban, you can see what everyone has voted.