• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

Should Meta Knight be banned from competitive Brawl?


  • Total voters
    3,010
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

Poltergust

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
4,462
Location
Miami, Florida
NNID
Poltergust
3DS FC
3609-1547-9922
Ugh...

I... just don't know which side to choose. Up until now I've always been strictly neutral, but there is no "Undecided" option in the poll this time. Which one should I choose!?

:069: Choose what's in your heart, Polt. Bellsprout.
 

Sosuke

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Aug 3, 2007
Messages
25,073
Switch FC
8132-9932-4710
...If there is any way to remove the votes of people with no post count, that would be nice.


A decent amount of alternate accounts have been made.
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
...If there is any way to remove the votes of people with no post count, that would be nice.


A decent amount of alternate accounts have been made.
This poll is statistically worthless anyways, no matter which side it supports.
 

Cloud9157

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 11, 2009
Messages
298
Location
Chicago, Illinois
Both sides have good points but i voted anti-ban. MK is a lot more fun to watch and use than other characters imo. If MK gets banned then i won't be too bummed at all though.

I prefer characters who actually have a decent LC as opposed to an easy LC character. Diddy, Snake, ICs, etc.
 

Vorguen

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2008
Messages
2,168
Location
Vorgy = RGV = Brownsville, Texas
I am pro-ban.

Meta Knight was banned in our local tournaments and was unanimously agreed upon by ALL our top players, including the only true Meta Knight main who consistantly placed first.
 

RedyBz

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 18, 2009
Messages
69
Location
Canada
...If there is any way to remove the votes of people with no post count, that would be nice.


A decent amount of alternate accounts have been made.
Thats what ive been thinking as well i think some does dupe accounts. *facepalm*


Voted yes.
 

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,664
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
So I'll just copy past parts of the quote you had in a different color and address what I can honestly perceive.


"This has been said since November, and since November, his overall tournament results have declined. While he still is in the lead for best results, they aren't nearly as bad as half a year ago. Look at the two most recent, most competitive, largest Brawl tournaments; Apex and Genesis. A lot of people said, "Let's wait for Apex!" It happened. One out of the top eight was a pure MK main I believe, with two or three others using him as a secondary in some matches. Ally, a Snake main, won Apex. Most people said, "Let's wait for Genesis!" 3 out of the top 8 were pure MK mains, no one else using him. Ally, a Snake, won Genesis."


A solid point. I won't deny that his results have declined. Let's look at the potential reasons as to why they did.

I found it funny that while there was no complaint or possibility pertaining to MK being banned/overpowered, there was next to no research into his close matchups. But when the red flag goes up and he is viewed as bannable, people work to find things that help worsen his matchups. All the sudden re-discussions of MK's matchups like Diddy, Falco, Snake etc. Wario and ICs, who were nowhere near being considered even or slight advantage MK before the ban attempt, were being considered even.

Also, who is to say people haven't quit Brawl or were afraid when a legitimate attempt to ban MK were shown? In my personal opinion, if I was going to potentially lose the character I worked to improve regardless of the period of time maining him, I would switch to someone else, whether it be Snake or Falcon. The risk is rarely worth the reward I believe.

I'll just counter that part of your quote. Better to take it step-by-step rather than have a huge post of words.

If people can actually be decent about this and not flame/be trolls, show me a decent counter to what I said.
Quitting MK in fear that he might get banned is silly.

Situation A) You stay MK. He gets banned. You're forced to be someone else.
Situation B) You switch to someone else because you're afraid MK will get banned. He does/doesn't get banned. You're playing as someone else.

Wouldn't it make more sense to play your best character for the longest amount of time?

I wasn't around here back in May or whenever, when the "Ban MK" argument didn't exist and match-up discussion for him was going on. But why do you find it funny? Obviously when a character's about to be banned, you want to make sure that they're actually banworthy before you write them off as being banworthy. Granted, bad match-up discussion and people spewing untrue crap might have resulted from that, but that doesn't change what the match-ups are. It's not as if a match-up viewed as 70-30 suddenly turns even because of words, unless there was some huge meta-game changing discovery with a character.

Hold on Shadowlink, I'm about to reply to your post.
 

Poltergust

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
4,462
Location
Miami, Florida
NNID
Poltergust
3DS FC
3609-1547-9922
Well... I voted. I... don't want to say which side I voted on, though. :(

:069: Be strong, Polt! Bellsprout.
 

The Sauce Boss

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
766
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
This poll is back AGAIN?!

I really don't see how you can justify banning a character that didn't win genesis OR apex. It seems like a ban worthy character would you know....win.

I vote no ban.
 

jbandrew

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 30, 2007
Messages
1,040
Location
Germany
I actually don't care about this anymore. Even if Pro-Ban wins this poll... MK still won't get banned in my region or area (NJ, NY, maybe even PA). So blah, its whatever to me now.
 

Praxis

Smash Hero
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
6,165
Location
Spokane, WA
Amazing post from ChiboSempai:



My take on the Anti-Ban essay

Argument 1: MetaKnight is not broken

You (referring to Anti-Ban side collectively) mention that MetaKnight does not have the ability to bypass hit stun, DI, KOs, free movement, or other concepts familiar to smash game play while being bound by the rules - however MetaKnight does indeed have options to do so. A popular tactic for MetaKnight is the Infinite Dimensional Cape. This tactic, which makes MetaKnight both invincible and invisible (obviously making it so he is not effected by the normal aspects of the game) was promptly banned, but it has proven to not be enough. There has been video evidence of players using even just a little bit of IDC to escape certain situations, enough to where it would be tough to call out at the time of the match, but enough to make a judgement based on a video review. Despite the tactic being banned, players (including Mew2King) have managed to slip by with using it without any repercussion. Even if it is brought up that IDC is banned, there is the recently discovered EDC, which has different properties of the IDC, but is not bannable under the same criteria. It does however make MetaKnight both invisible and invulnerable for times he shouldn't be.

Argument 2: Metaknight does not dominate the metagame

You mention that Ally has defeated Mew2King to get first twice this season compared to Mew2King doing the same to him only once. While what you said is technically true, you are hiding a good amount of information that I hope people won't neglect to realize. The term season alone is a complete opinion in this situation. I seriously am not sure what you mean. In state power rankings in the regional zones, a season is determined by a ranking period generally, which does not apply here. In the case of the current weather-related season we are in - Summer - this is also not the case as the first day of Summer was June 21st, 2009.

(all x-x accounts are defined as Ally-M2k)
If you define season as Summer
Ally lost to Mew2King in Winners Finals at Genesis: 0-1 set count
Ally beat Mew2King in two sets in Grand Finals at Genesis: 2-1 set count; 1-0 tournament win
Mew2King beat Ally in Grand Finals at Evo 2k9: 2-2 set count; 1-1 tournament win

Obviously Summer isn't the season that was used, since neither set count, nor tournament wins match up to your 2-1 claim.

If you define season as starting before Apex
Ally beat Mew2King in Grand Finals at Apex: 1-0 set count; 1-0 tournament win
Ally lost to Mew2King in Winners Finals at Genesis: 1-1 set count
Ally beat Mew2King in two sets in Grand Finals at Genesis: 3-1 set count; 2-0 tournament win
Mew2King beat Ally in Grand Finals at Evo 2k9: 3-2 set count; 2-1 tournament win

This is what seems to be what you used in your analysis, with Ally winning two tournaments to M2k's one (when both were present) starting at Apex. It is quite ridiculous to define this time as "this season." There is no defined season starter in this situation, and it was simply used to cover up information. This is also without mentioning that the percent ratio Mew2King has on Ally is better in his set count than it is with his tournament count.

Players generally include CoT4 results in the whole Mew2King versus Ally debate, which when adding onto the last count with Apex in the mix:
Mew2king beat Ally in two sets in Winners and Grand Finals at CoT4: 3-4 set count; 2-2 tournament win

This places Mew2King above Ally in this respect. If you wish to go even further to Cataclysm 4, Mew2King and Ally's first meeting in a tournament, Mew2King beat Ally in winners finals and won the tournament with Ally taking home third place.

Argument #3: The game is still growing and evolving

Many compare this to the beginning of Melee, where players complained about Sheik and that this is a new game, we don't know as much. Times just aren't the same anymore. Super Smash Bros. Brawl has been a heavy target by homebrew developers, hacking the game to it's fullest. There are now versions such as Brawl-E, EXBrawl, and S-Brawl which have modified the game, but most importantly - Brawl+. Whether you favor it or not, you still have to appreciate what this project has given the community. The makers of Brawl+ have statistical information (with actual numbers and hard data to back it) of knockback, knockback gain, damage, and hitboxes of every single attack in the game, along with all data about characters such as frame data, weight, gravity, and much more. I'm willing to wager that we know more about this game at this point in time (approx 16 months after release) than any other fighting game ever created after 16 months of being released.

Even with players jumping on the bandwagon to be the best character, it has also had everyone who is not an MK main specifically look for tactics in their character to counter MetaKnight. Many players complain that even if they are MetaKnight, it's annoying as MetaKnight is one of the most known matchups for every other character in the game - however even with the combined knowledge of everyone, it is still debatable that MetaKnight does not have a single matchup he loses.

Argument #4: Implying that Metaknight breaks the counterpick system also implies that Brawl is a game based on counterpicking

The counterpicking system in Smash is very important and a staple to the game's success. It is essentially a tournament rule, no different than what stages are banned, if "planking" is banned, if stalling is banned, if IDC is banned, or if we have 3 stocks instead of 10. If you wish to discredit the counterpicking system, then you might as well also discredit banning IDC (a player-created rule), which if legal, would make MetaKnight a guaranteed make MetaKnight bannable.

You really can't compare Brawl and Smash 64 in the way that you did. A best character is a best character - agreed. Even when MetaKnight is banned, there will be a new best character. The difference between the games is that Brawl is an overly-defensive game in which characters trade hits, the player in control isn't always the defensive one. In Smash 64 however, just about ever character has some form of a 0-death combo, and with the insane amount of hitstun, shieldstun, and the Z-canceling of any aerial to eliminate all aerial lag, Smash 64 rewards on being offensive. Getting a single hit in on Pikachu isn't hard. It isn't hard getting a hit on MetaKnight either. The difference being that a single hit on Pikachu in Smash 64 can literally mean death for that character, which certainly is not the case in Brawl. A MetaKnight can make any number of mistakes in Brawl and still walk away with a safe win. Isai's quote ("Don't get hit") doesn't hold any weight in Brawl, for in Brawl "It's ok if you get hit."

Argument #5: Metaknight’s extraneous circumstances are already resolved

Everything here is essentially void. You bring up the use of player-created rules to keep MetaKnight in-line which you discredit in your 4th argument, which whether or not I agree with, is contradictory to your own essay. This is also without mentioning that the anti-planking rule is really based on judgement, which has been proven to not work in true competitive play since it is fully based on opinion. Stalling has been defined as making the game unplayable or doing an infinite past 300%, which is ok. The ledge grab rule is also ok, but was truly only implemented at first because of MetaKnight. It started at 70, then being lowered to 50 for some tournaments, and there has even been some discussion of lowering it to around 25. Clearly the rule does not work it having to constantly be modified and the new onset of "air-planking." As for IDC, the new issue of EDC has arisen, which can not be banned the same way, and it is still a problem. In the case of Dojo vs DEHF, this certainly was a problem of MetaKnight. This is not the first time a MetaKnight has air-planked an opponent to win. Dojo has done it, Plank has done it, I've even watched other anti-ban SBR members do it in tournament. Whether or not you see it as a problem, it was attempted to be called out on Dojo for a reason. UTDZac did the same thing that very tournament, and did anyone care? No, he was Mr. Game and Watch.


Overall

There is a real lack of factual data in the Anti-Ban essay outside of tournament results. In terms of actually defining the character and analyzing him, there was practically nothing.
 

P. O. F.

Smash Ace
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
820
Location
2008 Melee Player

SuSa

Banned via Administration
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,508
Location
planking while watching anime with Fino
Anyone who think's port priority is unimportant in dittos for the most cases.
You are wrong.

1) On stages with nothing random (No Halberd or crap) and neither player has a projectile that can be held /has a timed detonation (Everyone but: Snake, Samus, Link, Toon Link, Peach (only Bobomb) and maybe 1-2 others..) has the advantage with Port 1. (If you grab at the same time, you get the grab) this is an advantage. Albeit small.

2) With characters that do have said projectile, having a higher port (4) is the best because you do not take knockback when in a grab from said projectile. Your opponent does. This makes port 4 an extreme advantage, especially in Snake dittos.

 

Cloud9157

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 11, 2009
Messages
298
Location
Chicago, Illinois
This poll is back AGAIN?!

I really don't see how you can justify banning a character that didn't win genesis OR apex. It seems like a ban worthy character would you know....win.

I vote no ban.

M2K did bad at both of those tournies, period. He also played the best Snake there is, Ally. Yet he can beat Ally in regular tourney play, and at Evo.
 

noradseven

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 13, 2009
Messages
1,558
Location
North Carolina
Amazing post from ChiboSempai:



My take on the Anti-Ban essay

Argument 1: MetaKnight is not broken

You (referring to Anti-Ban side collectively) mention that MetaKnight does not have the ability to bypass hit stun, DI, KOs, free movement, or other concepts familiar to smash game play while being bound by the rules - however MetaKnight does indeed have options to do so. A popular tactic for MetaKnight is the Infinite Dimensional Cape. This tactic, which makes MetaKnight both invincible and invisible (obviously making it so he is not effected by the normal aspects of the game) was promptly banned, but it has proven to not be enough. There has been video evidence of players using even just a little bit of IDC to escape certain situations, enough to where it would be tough to call out at the time of the match, but enough to make a judgement based on a video review. Despite the tactic being banned, players (including Mew2King) have managed to slip by with using it without any repercussion. Even if it is brought up that IDC is banned, there is the recently discovered EDC, which has different properties of the IDC, but is not bannable under the same criteria. It does however make MetaKnight both invisible and invulnerable for times he shouldn't be.

Argument 2: Metaknight does not dominate the metagame

You mention that Ally has defeated Mew2King to get first twice this season compared to Mew2King doing the same to him only once. While what you said is technically true, you are hiding a good amount of information that I hope people won't neglect to realize. The term season alone is a complete opinion in this situation. I seriously am not sure what you mean. In state power rankings in the regional zones, a season is determined by a ranking period generally, which does not apply here. In the case of the current weather-related season we are in - Summer - this is also not the case as the first day of Summer was June 21st, 2009.

(all x-x accounts are defined as Ally-M2k)
If you define season as Summer
Ally lost to Mew2King in Winners Finals at Genesis: 0-1 set count
Ally beat Mew2King in two sets in Grand Finals at Genesis: 2-1 set count; 1-0 tournament win
Mew2King beat Ally in Grand Finals at Evo 2k9: 2-2 set count; 1-1 tournament win

Obviously Summer isn't the season that was used, since neither set count, nor tournament wins match up to your 2-1 claim.

If you define season as starting before Apex
Ally beat Mew2King in Grand Finals at Apex: 1-0 set count; 1-0 tournament win
Ally lost to Mew2King in Winners Finals at Genesis: 1-1 set count
Ally beat Mew2King in two sets in Grand Finals at Genesis: 3-1 set count; 2-0 tournament win
Mew2King beat Ally in Grand Finals at Evo 2k9: 3-2 set count; 2-1 tournament win

This is what seems to be what you used in your analysis, with Ally winning two tournaments to M2k's one (when both were present) starting at Apex. It is quite ridiculous to define this time as "this season." There is no defined season starter in this situation, and it was simply used to cover up information. This is also without mentioning that the percent ratio Mew2King has on Ally is better in his set count than it is with his tournament count.

Players generally include CoT4 results in the whole Mew2King versus Ally debate, which when adding onto the last count with Apex in the mix:
Mew2king beat Ally in two sets in Winners and Grand Finals at CoT4: 3-4 set count; 2-2 tournament win

This places Mew2King above Ally in this respect. If you wish to go even further to Cataclysm 4, Mew2King and Ally's first meeting in a tournament, Mew2King beat Ally in winners finals and won the tournament with Ally taking home third place.

Argument #3: The game is still growing and evolving

Many compare this to the beginning of Melee, where players complained about Sheik and that this is a new game, we don't know as much. Times just aren't the same anymore. Super Smash Bros. Brawl has been a heavy target by homebrew developers, hacking the game to it's fullest. There are now versions such as Brawl-E, EXBrawl, and S-Brawl which have modified the game, but most importantly - Brawl+. Whether you favor it or not, you still have to appreciate what this project has given the community. The makers of Brawl+ have statistical information (with actual numbers and hard data to back it) of knockback, knockback gain, damage, and hitboxes of every single attack in the game, along with all data about characters such as frame data, weight, gravity, and much more. I'm willing to wager that we know more about this game at this point in time (approx 16 months after release) than any other fighting game ever created after 16 months of being released.

Even with players jumping on the bandwagon to be the best character, it has also had everyone who is not an MK main specifically look for tactics in their character to counter MetaKnight. Many players complain that even if they are MetaKnight, it's annoying as MetaKnight is one of the most known matchups for every other character in the game - however even with the combined knowledge of everyone, it is still debatable that MetaKnight does not have a single matchup he loses.

Argument #4: Implying that Metaknight breaks the counterpick system also implies that Brawl is a game based on counterpicking

The counterpicking system in Smash is very important and a staple to the game's success. It is essentially a tournament rule, no different than what stages are banned, if "planking" is banned, if stalling is banned, if IDC is banned, or if we have 3 stocks instead of 10. If you wish to discredit the counterpicking system, then you might as well also discredit banning IDC (a player-created rule), which if legal, would make MetaKnight a guaranteed make MetaKnight bannable.

You really can't compare Brawl and Smash 64 in the way that you did. A best character is a best character - agreed. Even when MetaKnight is banned, there will be a new best character. The difference between the games is that Brawl is an overly-defensive game in which characters trade hits, the player in control isn't always the defensive one. In Smash 64 however, just about ever character has some form of a 0-death combo, and with the insane amount of hitstun, shieldstun, and the Z-canceling of any aerial to eliminate all aerial lag, Smash 64 rewards on being offensive. Getting a single hit in on Pikachu isn't hard. It isn't hard getting a hit on MetaKnight either. The difference being that a single hit on Pikachu in Smash 64 can literally mean death for that character, which certainly is not the case in Brawl. A MetaKnight can make any number of mistakes in Brawl and still walk away with a safe win. Isai's quote ("Don't get hit") doesn't hold any weight in Brawl, for in Brawl "It's ok if you get hit."

Argument #5: Metaknight’s extraneous circumstances are already resolved

Everything here is essentially void. You bring up the use of player-created rules to keep MetaKnight in-line which you discredit in your 4th argument, which whether or not I agree with, is contradictory to your own essay. This is also without mentioning that the anti-planking rule is really based on judgement, which has been proven to not work in true competitive play since it is fully based on opinion. Stalling has been defined as making the game unplayable or doing an infinite past 300%, which is ok. The ledge grab rule is also ok, but was truly only implemented at first because of MetaKnight. It started at 70, then being lowered to 50 for some tournaments, and there has even been some discussion of lowering it to around 25. Clearly the rule does not work it having to constantly be modified and the new onset of "air-planking." As for IDC, the new issue of EDC has arisen, which can not be banned the same way, and it is still a problem. In the case of Dojo vs DEHF, this certainly was a problem of MetaKnight. This is not the first time a MetaKnight has air-planked an opponent to win. Dojo has done it, Plank has done it, I've even watched other anti-ban SBR members do it in tournament. Whether or not you see it as a problem, it was attempted to be called out on Dojo for a reason. UTDZac did the same thing that very tournament, and did anyone care? No, he was Mr. Game and Watch.


Overall

There is a real lack of factual data in the Anti-Ban essay outside of tournament results. In terms of actually defining the character and analyzing him, there was practically nothing.
Is this you
 

NightSky

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 26, 2009
Messages
429
Location
Loading Please Wait...
Heh personally i don't give a **** what happens to MK but i voted anti-ban...
Not like this poll matters anyway..I mean if he does get banned...its just laughable...
people just stop whining and learn the ****ing matchup....thats all I have to say...
 

*_Echo_*

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 6, 2008
Messages
419
Location
Dallas, TX
This poll is back AGAIN?!

I really don't see how you can justify banning a character that didn't win genesis OR apex. It seems like a ban worthy character would you know....win.

I vote no ban.
thats because they played ally >_> and u cant beat ally lol
 

The Sauce Boss

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 14, 2008
Messages
766
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
M2K did bad at both of those tournies, period. He also played the best Snake there is, Ally. Yet he can beat Ally in regular tourney play, and at Evo.
Oh he did bad! Why didn't you say so? This changes everything.

/sarcasm


And out of all three of those tournaments Evo was the smallest.
 

Fatmanonice

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 27, 2006
Messages
18,432
Location
Somewhere... overthinking something
NNID
Fatmanonice
Look at this argument AGAIN, who wants to respond to it?

Seriously.

I'm about to stroke out by the idiocy in this thread.

Also, what's this more work thing? If MK was really this auto fall back on character, you'd see random scrubs winning large tournaments, or even tournaments period with him, and tournament results wouldn't be consistent at all because you'd just have an influx of people using MK and placing really high!

Oh wait, that isn't happening.
Christ almighty, quit reposting this over and over again. If people don't care, they don't care. Quit acting like it's the most important response in this thread. You'll live if people don't respond. I've been on forums since 2001 and, trust me, you won't burst into flames in someone doesn't respond to one of your posts. If you have to, go out and smoke a cigarette or two to wind down. :laugh:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom