Floaty Purposes [MEWTWO GENERAL]

[2 C H i L L E D]

Appreciate it, 2CHILLED.

Np man.

 

[GeZ]

Utilt is wonderfully sexy. How do you guys usually try to convert from Utilt into other moves? I find Short Hopped aerials really does the trick of most characters.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mewtwo is without a doubt not in the top 5. Even more he wouldn't "easily" attain that rank.

Jesus, I want to learn Mewtwo now just to demonstrate how terribly wrong you are. :<

Utilt is wonderfully sexy. How do you guys usually try to convert from Utilt into other moves? I find Short Hopped aerials really does the trick of most characters.

Utilt into chained uairs works pretty well against non-fastfallers. Against FFs, you're better off just playing the dtilt/dthrow/fair game I think.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Jesus, I want to learn Mewtwo now just to demonstrate how terribly wrong you are. :<

Learn him then, I'd be glad to see it. But don't get me wrong. He's pretty damn good, but top 5? Idk...

 

[RaynEX]

Jesus, I want to learn Mewtwo now just to demonstrate how terribly wrong you are. :<

Just off the top of my head: Falco, Fox, Wolf, Lucas, Lucario, Bowser, Mario, Ivysaur are considered to be some of the best characters in P:M (even if we're going solely by tournament results) and are all better than Mewtwo. That's way more than 5. I'm sure legitimate counterpoints can be made for Pit, MK and Marth as well.

Your subjective "if I picked him up I'll show you all he's amazing" argument is just too flimsy. But yeah Mewtwo is solid, and definitely 10x better than his melee incarnation.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Just off the top of my head: Falco, Fox, Wolf, Lucas, Lucario, Bowser, Mario, Ivysaur are considered to be some of the best characters in P:M (even if we're going solely by tournament results)

Sure, but Ivy, Bowser, and Lucas were nerfed, and these results are all for 2.6b anyway.

and are all better than Mewtwo.

Now *THAT* is subjective. I think M2 is demonstrably better than Bowser, Mario, and Ivy. The spacies aren't nearly as great as in Melee, and M2 stomps on them anyway. I don't know much about Lucas or Lucario.

Your subjective "if I picked him up I'll show you all he's amazing" argument is just too flimsy. But yeah Mewtwo is solid, and definitely 10x better than his melee incarnation.

That's not an argument, it's just me being an arrogant prick. :D

I could theoretically be wrong, but I'm extremely confident that everyone else is jumping the gun too much in even comparing new Mewtwo to the melee incarnation at all. He plays similarly, sure, but literally every single aspect of the character was improved dramatically. I haven't seen anybody play a mewtwo in PM that looks good yet; much less anything even beginning to approach the level of technical mastery at which the Melee vets are played.

Give it a couple months. If I'm wrong, we'll probably all know by then.

 

[StriderAaron360]

What is your overall mentality when using Mewtwo?

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Just off the top of my head: Falco, Fox, Wolf, Lucas, Lucario, Bowser, Mario, Ivysaur are considered to be some of the best characters in P:M (even if we're going solely by tournament results) and are all better than Mewtwo. That's way more than 5. I'm sure legitimate counterpoints can be made for Pit, MK and Marth as well.

Your subjective "if I picked him up I'll show you all he's amazing" argument is just too flimsy. But yeah Mewtwo is solid, and definitely 10x better than his melee incarnation.

Come on man, 3.0 Ivy is a joke and you know it.

imo Mewtwo is probably better than 2.6 Ivy was anyway.

May or may not be biased though.

 

[ss118]

As an Ivysaur main I do not think she is a joke. Rather, she requires more than just pressing side b + random move to be able to move forward now. They cut out a lot of her excess strength and it shows when people think she's a "joke".

Mewtwo isn't that great imo, but he isn't bad either. How often do you find yourself floating vs teleporting vs DDing to move around? I tend to find myself more float heavy with some DDing and WDing mixed around.

Also, how are people finding his side-b? Seems like a solid option but I haven't explored it simply due to its terrible-ness in melee.

 

[GeZ]

Yeah, 3.0 Ivy is still a contender, just a more nuanced one, which makes more sense anyway, though I'm not that surprised that people are already spouting absolutes about 3.0 changes. The game may change, but aspects of the community will always be the same <3

I do think that Mewtwo is good, but saying he's top 5 is too much. He's cerebral as hell, which is awesome and feels very rewarding, but he has some real difficulties in some serious Melee matchups, and I don't think he rips through the Brawl cast as easily as most people would assume.

 

[Vale]

What is your overall mentality when using Mewtwo?

"Wow, this requires a lot more effort than when I'm playing Marth."

 

[ss118]

I was talking about character design with my friends and why Mewtwo probably won't end up being a great character, and it has a lot to do with the fact that Mewtwo has a lot of good-great options but doesn't necessarily have that one key option that his play can be revolved around.

For example, Fox/ Marth have DDing and Falco has lasers and Ivysaur has bair. Now don't read this as "this is all they do", but realize that truly these options are the core of their play and move options and choices stem from situations where the core doesn't work. From that you're able to truly develop a playstyle with a character because then one can find even more situations where the core isn't bad, but another move is better.

I'm having some issue establishing a "central action" with Mewtwo. In fighting games characters usually abuse one-two of three aspects; movement(fox/marth in melee, Magneto in UMVC3), hitboxes(Peach in melee, Vergil/ Dante in UMVC3), or projectiles(Falco in melee, Morrigan in UMVC3). I'm sure you could gather that great characters don't belong individually to one of these three factions, but their "central action" usually does. Just from reading the Mewtwo posts a lot and playing I feel Mewtwo is very heavy on movement.

I feel like Mewtwo's central action is actually facing backwards from the opposing character and floating. Depending on the match-up you can find very specific spacings that can abuse a character and with your bair you can often poke in areas your opponents can't deal with. I feel very similar to playing peach since she likes to do similar things, but I consider Peach "hitbox" and mewtwo "movement" due to the nature of how they control this position; Peach's fair/ nair/ bair are ridiculous in priority, but Mewtwo has more control in his movement during this period.

EVENTUALLY I'll play with my friends and record and maybe you guys will agree with me, but I'm going to continue down this path to see how I can develop my personal style. If anyone has any input, feel free to enlighten me. ^_^

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mewtwo has a lot of good-great options but doesn't necessarily have that one key option that his play can be revolved around...I'm having some issue establishing a "central action" with Mewtwo.

Uh, yeah. Shadow ball. Charge one or throw one.

 

[GeZ]

Uh, yeah. Shadow ball. Charge one or throw one.

I'll edit this later to extrapolate better but, in short, no, charging shadow ball doesn't work as the crux of a strategy.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'll edit this later to extrapolate better but, in short, no, charging shadow ball doesn't work as the crux of a strategy.

Throw it then.

 

[GeZ]

When a character has a core to their game it's something that works in concert, or glues together everything else they can do or want to do. Falco's lasers make his combos work better, let him harass opponents as he approaches, opens up the opponent and prevents them from harassing him themselves. Marth's movement lets him control his exchanges with the opponent and line up his tippers well, as well as let him chase or escape well.

On the flip side of this, I don't think fighting games are about central actions, as that's a crappy excuse to go on autopilot. Yun plays rushdown in 3rd Strike but you need to focus on how you're rushing down and how your opponent reacts/ interacts with that. Mewtwo is a good example of a character that's very difficult to auto pilot with because he's got very nuanced options that can handle situations in different ways to different effects. But amidst all this, if you were trying to place something that is the "glue" to Mewtwo's game, it wouldn't be shadow ball.

 

[ss118]

I guess that's true enough. Mewtwo reminds me a lot of Shiek, whom also doesn't exactly have a "central action".

 

[Vale]

As somebody who frequently zones out in the middle of matches, I can confirm the difficulty in autopiloting Mewtwo. It is currently my biggest problem with playing him. By the time I realize what's going on, they've made up whatever lead I establish when I'm paying attention. In contrast, I'm able to just take a lead early with other characters and then just fall back into generic strategies mixed with doing whatever moves I think look the coolest ("yeah, I think the third hit of dancing blade is my best edgeguarding option right now").
How do you guys focus?

 

[GeZ]

As somebody who frequently zones out in the middle of matches, I can confirm the difficulty in autopiloting Mewtwo. It is currently my biggest problem with playing him. By the time I realize what's going on, they've made up whatever lead I establish when I'm paying attention. In contrast, I'm able to just take a lead early with other characters and then just fall back into generic strategies mixed with doing whatever moves I think look the coolest ("yeah, I think the third hit of dancing blade is my best edgeguarding option right now").
How do you guys focus?

That's the million dollar question, man. I try to focus on understanding what my opponent is doing and what habits they may have, and then adjusting my game to it. I still catch myself asleep at the controls from time to time but I try to stay tuned in as much as I can.

 

[xXSciophobiaXx]

If you're looking for a central action to revolve you're play around and you still don't like what you have, try wave dashing forward-backward, dash dancing and possibly moonwalking with the focus that you are looking to grab your opponent.

I find that i have the most success when I am focused on being hard to read/predict and capitalizing on mistakes by punishing with grabs into combos into good positioning. This obviously doesn't work excellently against camping/spamming characters because you eventually have to get in with mewtwo, but I even have some success against my friends shorthoplaser falco who can be pretty annoying. Similarly, I find that mewtwo has considerable success when you WD into your opponent and get into that uncomfortable region, far enough to not be grabbed, close enough to threaten with short hopped or HCancel aerials. Upon seeing an aerial moved in on shield (if its spaced well and can't be shield-grabbed), jump OOS and hover cancel shield pressure with fairs (this can also beat opponents who hit with an aerial on shield and look to grab mewtwo). Then mix this up with wavedash in, wavedash forward or backward and Charge an F-smash while still sliding. Sometimes this can catch your opponent looking to remain safe against OOS aerials that you've been abusing. The other option to stay ambiguous is to jump in and apply shield pressure with fairs, hover canceled or otherwise. straightforward aerial pressure is the least rewarding tactic I find.

Also, what I feel is fairly core to having a good neutral game or central action/feel to mewtwo is having a charged shadow ball. It feels like it is often more effective that using your charged shadow ball to hit them for 25%. The constant threat of a good read-shadow ball hit forces your opponent to play uncomfortably. Obviously if landing a shadow ball on your opponent will kill them, or put them in a edge guard finishing position, go for it (barring being predictable). Also, if you're at 130-150% or something where you're likely to die vs your opponent who is low%, theres nothing wrong with just randomly shooting a FC shadow ball for the 25% damage.

Along the same lines of end of life, YOLO attitude strategies: if you can grab throw them off the edge, mewtwo has the great ability to essentially secure kills by being able to chase soooo far offstage and gimp. If you manage to get the stock lead and throw them off the edge, if you're at 150%, you might as well go balls-to-wall to try to kill them with u airs +/- fastfall to gimp them even at the cost of you're own stock.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Idk, I rather be able to SBC at low percentages because Mewtwo can build damage pretty quickly if you're in your opponents ***. I just SBC until I receive a full charge and even then I like to use the FC to mindgame people not to actually damage them (25% is always nice tho). Like no one wants to be hit by a FC SB, they will sit in shield a while if they think you're about to toss it their way. I'll just teleport -> confusion if they sit in shield across the stage other situations I vary with.

 

[DrinkingFood]

...Sit in shield waiting for a projectile? Nobody good does that. At most they'll shield it on reaction, but usually they're going to move out of the way if they have the option...

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

...Sit in shield waiting for a projectile? Nobody good does that. At most they'll shield it on reaction, but usually they're going to move out of the way if they have the option...

While his example may be flawed, his premise is definitely valid. We can use the threat of a fully charged Shadow Ball to try and make our opponent fall into our "less threatening" moves, and start combos or just do constant chip damage until we can kill. If my opponent is constantly jumping around trying to avoid Shadow Ball, I'm going to try and jump in under him and Up Air him, or maybe something else. idk would depend on the exact situation.

 

[Shell]

Honestly I find it kind of silly that it doesn't refresh his hover on edge grab. Because of how his trade-off for jump works, it almost feels like an alternative to jump, and feels as if it should work the same way in all cases as a jump, just slower and omni-directional
Reducing campiness feels like a pretty lame reason, it's not like there aren't other characters (I'm looking at you, jiggs) that have incredible potential for edge campiness
The thing is, how many people abuse that? It's rarely ever seen. I find Ike's walljump change in (2.5?) to be the exact same thing. Nobody ever abused that. Limiting a player's options for every game every time a player uses their character seems like a really awkward solution to something that's only every going to be a reality in one-in-a-thousand tournament matches, or less. I can only think of one match I've ever seen in which a jigglypuff abused edge camping to the extreme of a time out, out of how many matches that have ever happened? I know my sampling method isn't exactly perfect, but you can look for yourself. It's not brawl, and for some reason, nobody feels encouraged to edge camp that hardcore in P:M or melee.
In a playtesting environment, I have no doubt you would see that kind of stuff. Were I play testing Jiggs for the first time, I'd revel in seeing exactly how much time I can spend in the air offstage with the floatiest, five-jumpiest, most aerial-mobiliest, side-b falling speed stalliest character in the game. Having access to new stuff encourages using it to extremes. I have no doubt that, if it became a regular thing to refresh hover on edge-grab, people would get used to having it and stop using it just because they can and move on to learning and using the rest of the character, using it only when necessary.

Sorry didn't see this until now --

if we allowed Hover to refresh on ledge grab, then infinite *invincible* ledge drop -> Hover -> Uair -> ledge grab stall loops would be a thing.

Yes, Mewtwo does have an infinite invincible stall in ledge drop -> Up-B -> regrab but it lacks any sort of hitbox, allowing the opponent to hog Mewtwo with a quick RAR wavedash pretty effectively. In turn, invincible hover nair would have a pretty massive hitbox for the opponent to contend with...

I think you can see why we took that out, even if not refreshing at the ledge isn't the most totally natural choice.

EDIT: it actually would be invincible for the first 29 of 39 frames, although this wouldn't be completely impervious to lingering attacks it would still be annoying enough to be pretty questionable. The final bit is that Peach's regrab doesn't give her another Float, either, so it makes more sense to follow this precedent than to go against the precedent in order to introduce a ledge stall tactic that could range from annoying to potentially broken.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Sorry didn't see this until now --

if we allowed Hover to refresh on ledge grab, then infinite *invincible* ledge drop -> Hover -> Uair -> ledge grab stall loops would be a thing.

Yes, Mewtwo does have an infinite invincible stall in ledge drop -> Up-B -> regrab but it lacks any sort of hitbox, allowing the opponent to hog Mewtwo with a quick RAR wavedash pretty effectively. In turn, invincible hover nair would have a pretty massive hitbox for the opponent to contend with...

I think you can see why we took that out, even if not refreshing at the ledge isn't the most totally natural choice.

EDIT: it actually would be invincible for the first 29 of 39 frames, although this wouldn't be completely impervious to lingering attacks it would still be annoying enough to be pretty questionable. The final bit is that Peach's regrab doesn't give her another Float, either, so it makes more sense to follow this precedent than to go against the precedent in order to introduce a ledge stall tactic that could range from annoying to potentially broken.

Fair enough. Have you addressed MewTwo losing hover when grabbing an edge though? I'm talking about when you double jump to the edge, and lose it without ever using it. I made a thread here in the M2 forums but i don't suppose you guys can read everything so i ask here to bring your attention to it.

 

[ItalianStallion]

I was actually wondering what the general consensus so far on Mewtwo's ability at a competitive level. In my personal experience he seems solid, but I wouldn't go as far as to say overpowered. He still has his glaringly exploitable weaknesses, just with a bit more kick to his strengths. But what do you guys think? And what do your friends think, if they're not too salty to function.

Melee Mewtwo main here. I found that learning Mewtwo in PM has been a much quicker experience than I originally thought. However, I don't think I'm good enough with him to contend with other players of my skill level. I normally just play with some friends in my area that are new-ish to competitive Smash. So far, only one is wavedashing and l-canceling semi-consistently. All of them, HATE Mewtwo. They say he's not my best character (Yet), as that title rests with my Charizard. He's definitely not my quickest character, because I play Falcon as well. But he is my most hated character. One claims that he doesn't have enough weaknesses for the amount of strengths he has. Another puts him in top five. Naturally, this makes me upset because in my opinion, the only reason they dislike him is probably due to a couple things: 1. Matchup inexperience. 2. Experience I have with Mewtwo. 3. They don't play the against truly annoying characters (Jiggz, Peach) so to them Mewtwo is the most annoying character. They would probably all say Mewtwo is overpowered and needs some toning down. They extremely hate how amazing his recovery is, as well as his u-air chains and bair gimps.

I've never fought against Mewtwo before, so I need a favor from all of you. Can you guys put together some weaknesses or tips on how to fight Mewtwo because I can't convince them that he's not overpowered. One of them uses Marth and Toon Link (Both Matchups I believe Mewtwo has trouble with), another uses Samus (Easily one of my top three most hated matchups with Mewtwo), and another uses Ness.

 

[ss118]

Throw hitboxes out there. Mewtwo blows because everyone has a derpier move set.

 

[dRevan64]

What ss said. It's absurd that your friends are having THAT much trouble with mewtwo, he doesn't have the crazy disjointed sex kicks that let you run a train on anything without those types of normals.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

If they can keep pressuring your Mewtwo and keep you out of your "comfort" zone that will probably help them the most. The thing I notice when I'm playing Mewtwo is that if I'm comfortable in the neutral game, or better than that controlling the neutral game (with spacing, shadow ball, and teleport mixups). I will wack my opponent, as in complete control of the match. Mostly because Mewtwo transitions sooooo well from neutral --> offensive you can take stocks just like that. If my opponent manages to break my spacing and shadow balling they will start to build some momentum. If not ggs. Projectiles can help pin Mewtwo down and stop him from running rampant everywhere but then again Nair exists. Hmmm.....what are Mewtwo's weaknesses lmao?

My Mewtwo's movement is getting so sexy lol. Mewtwo's movement is way too nice. ^_^ You can fake your opponent out to the end of the times with the ultimate Pokemon.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Fair enough. Have you addressed MewTwo losing hover when grabbing an edge though? I'm talking about when you double jump to the edge, and lose it without ever using it. I made a thread here in the M2 forums but i don't suppose you guys can read everything so i ask here to bring your attention to it.

Double jump takes hover away.

 

[GeZ]

In my experience Mewtwo has trouble if the opponent keeps landing behind him as his only move that really covers both sides is Nair.

 

[StriderAaron360]

In my experience Mewtwo has trouble if the opponent keeps landing behind him as his only move that really covers both sides is Nair.

Yeah I seriously struggle with this. Along with the problem mentioned earlier about playing on autopilot.

 

[Youngster Joey]

In my experience Mewtwo has trouble if the opponent keeps landing behind him as his only move that really covers both sides is Nair.

ive not had this problem unless i dont fully understand the situation. i usually just bair when they land behind. but more of a retreating bair so they cant punish if they shield it. it hasnt failed me yet

 

[StriderAaron360]

What do you guys think about Mewtwo's strategy in doubles and good partners for him?

 

[ss118]

Currently practicing Mewtwo till my friend gets up... then playing Mewtwo friendlies with him.

www.twitch.tv/articanus

 

[Shadow Huan]

did someone in here seriously say that Melee Mewtwo stomps the spacies? lol what game were you playing?

at the very best it's 6:4 in Falco's favor and 7:3 in Fox's. FD only helps if they decide to play like idiots

I am glad at all the positive feedback that Mewtwo:M is getting. there are some things that i want to test, and I'll hopefully have videos up after casuals next week, so i can join in this conversation without having something to show that i know how to play the game rather than theorycrafting lol

 

[Zoa]

Has anyone tried to incorporate Mewtwo's bair at the tip as an approach option? The tip of his tail has no hurtboxes, yet it has a hitbox. It could work with a backwards wavedash. SH float could be a poking tool similar to Marth's fair.

 

[MetaKnight0]

did someone in here seriously say that Melee Mewtwo stomps the spacies? lol what game were you playing?

at the very best it's 6:4 in Falco's favor and 7:3 in Fox's. FD only helps if they decide to play like idiots

I am glad at all the positive feedback that Mewtwo:M is getting. there are some things that i want to test, and I'll hopefully have videos up after casuals next week, so i can join in this conversation without having something to show that i know how to play the game rather than theorycrafting lol

Where this post about fox < mewtwo

 

[Shadow Huan]

Has anyone tried to incorporate Mewtwo's bair at the tip as an approach option? The tip of his tail has no hurtboxes, yet it has a hitbox. It could work with a backwards wavedash. SH float could be a poking tool similar to Marth's fair.

the new tip of the tail hitbox on bair is really good, and only looses to other disjoints. some characters can grab it too I think. using it in Hover is good if a little situational, as an edgeguard it is pretty scary.

@ Metaknight0: pretty sure that I misread something _odds said, better off to say it was a misunderstanding in Melee and I jumped to a conclusion here. imo in PM Mewtwo will likely end up having an easier time with Falco but will still loose to Fox. time will tell

 

[MVP]

does anyone know where i can find a Taj Black and Red costume for mewtwo?