Floaty Purposes [MEWTWO GENERAL]

[U-Throw]

Shell, look, call me crazy, but I think Mewtwo's weight should be placed at his Melee weight. A character who has amazing combo game like him has no business weighing as much as Luigi. Honestly, I think the whole "Mewtwo is too light" arguments are ********. First of all, a moderate weight decreases his combo ability, and second of all, in decreases his wave-dash. And, with all the buffs you've currently given him, I think it would be best if he was returned to 85. Also, I don't give dip if his weight is not "accurate". He's using his psychic powers to make himself lighter. Duh. So, in conclusion, Mewtwo has no business weighing 97, put him back at 85, or even lighter if you want, but don't make him weigh more his Melee weight. Shell, also, I realize you are a backroom member and say this with all due respect, and you did an awesome job with Mewtwo.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

His combo ability has not decreased it's much better than it was in Melee. His wavedash is still one of the longest in the game. Mewtwo is too a huge target to have a weight of 85. Seems like you want him nerfed.

 

[Shell]

We are certainly keeping a close eye on his longevity during 3.0's release.

Also, fyi, weight does not have any impact on wavedash traits -- the start-up time is determined by the number of frames of Jump Squat prior to jumping (still 3 afaik) and distance traveled is mostly determined by friction, which is unchanged.

 

[teluoborg]

Well tbh I also feel like Mewtwo is too good.
But seriously ? It's just a hunch and it's way too soon to talk about nerfs and buffs.

Let a few tournaments happen, see if he sees the same rise as 2.6 Bowser or 2.5 Sonic.

 

[U-Throw]

I swear to God, I don't want him nerfed. I just feel like increasing his weight wasn't doing him much good. His combo game could be much better if he was lighter, even if that comes at the cost of vulnerability It's just my opinion, but still. If I'm wrong, then so be it, but I'm no professional, so I'm probably wrong. Also, do you guys have plans for Young Link as a playable character, or Pichu? Also, here's a link to a thread I created to post Final Smash ideas that could be plausible, here's a link:

http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-final-smash-ideas-and-thoughts.344233/

Also, thanks a ton for not changing Mewtwo's specials. I think changing them is a bad idea. His move set was excellent in Melee, it's just the attributes that made it poor.

 

[teluoborg]

Hum, think you're mixing up weight and fall speed.
Weight doesn't affect your comboing ability, it only comes into play when you're getting combo'd or knocked away.
Only fall speed affects your movement, and as far as I can tell M2 doesn't fall faster in PM.

 

[GeZ]

I was actually wondering what the general consensus so far on Mewtwo's ability at a competitive level. In my personal experience he seems solid, but I wouldn't go as far as to say overpowered. He still has his glaringly exploitable weaknesses, just with a bit more kick to his strengths. But what do you guys think? And what do your friends think, if they're not too salty to function.

 

[SpiderMad]

Broken smash attacks

 

[U-Throw]

Hum, think you're mixing up weight and fall speed.
Weight doesn't affect your comboing ability, it only comes into play when you're getting combo'd or knocked away.
Only fall speed affects your movement, and as far as I can tell M2 doesn't fall faster in PM.

Oh, OK. Then I'm perfectly happy. His falling speed is the same, then OK!!!! Sorry for the mix-up. In that case, he ABSOLUTLEY needed that weight increase.

Also, important question. Is his air speed the same?

 

[MetaKnight0]

Mewtwo feels about as good as melee link or melee Mario right now. Whether or not he becomes better than that is entirely up to how well he deals with his **** matchups. Fox, sheik, puff, falcon. IMO he still loses those matchups except against sheik where I think it's even maybe very small advantage mewtwo. I haven't gotten a chance yet to go against the usual crew of top tiers and if I do I'll haul in my own thoughts as well as videos.

Decreasing his weight to 90 would probably be fine though.

 

[0RLY]

Does anyone else accidentally hover when trying to wavedash?
I wish the hover input was straight down on the control stick, and not any direction under the horizontal.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Does anyone else accidentally hover when trying to wavedash?
I wish the hover input was straight down on the control stick, and not any direction under the horizontal.

Nah. I release the Y button too fast to ever hover with it. Which is why I kinda had to set "L" to jump because it gives me the exact timing I need. But even if you do hover on accident you can still just airdodge out of the hover to produce a wavedash.

Edit: And you have just the most disturbing signature lol. Everytime I see it I can't help but stare at it for a while.....so awkward....

 

[0RLY]

I think it's the funniest thing ever. I just couldn't stop looking at it because of how derpy it is.

But yeah, by the time I notice I hovered, I've already made my inputs and to let go of the trigger and press it back makes me land and roll/sidestep cause I'm already holding diagonal down, making me hover back to the ground. Like, if I input airdodge at the same time the hover begins, the airdodge won't happen either. It's super awkward.

 

[teluoborg]

That just makes me wonder what inputs you use for wavedashing.
Because I personally hold the jump button during a wavedash sometimes (so that if I slide of an edge I immediately start hovering), and I've never had any problem.

So what do you do ? Tell us your secrets.

 

[Serris]

So, if I'm interpreting this right, Mewtwo's f-smash is either as long as or longer than Marth's. If it's longer, that seems a little bonkers.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mewtwo feels about as good as melee link or melee Mario right now. Whether or not he becomes better than that is entirely up to how well he deals with his **** matchups. Fox, sheik, puff, falcon. IMO he still loses those matchups except against sheik where I think it's even maybe very small advantage mewtwo. I haven't gotten a chance yet to go against the usual crew of top tiers and if I do I'll haul in my own thoughts as well as videos.

Decreasing his weight to 90 would probably be fine though.

I think this is incredibly pessimistic. He's easily in the top 5 characters, imo. Just has a bit of a learning curve.

 

[teluoborg]

So, if I'm interpreting this right, Mewtwo's f-smash is either as long as or longer than Marth's. If it's longer, that seems a little bonkers.

Yes, yes it is.
The difference is that M2 has a huge blind spot a point blank range, where Marth does reduced damage Mewtwo does none.

 

[U-Throw]

Hi guys. I'm sick. Which is good! Now I can spend my time here!

 

[StriderAaron360]

How would you break down Mewtwo's neutral game? (your own personal thoughts and actions)

Also, how do you guys respond to players who rely heavily on crouch cancelling?

 

[U-Throw]

I have no idea what that means, but I would describe Mewtwo as a POWERFUL fighter, but he comes at the cost of high mobility and lack of combo-resistance. I would NOT describe him as a glass cannon. It's just... inaccurate. I have no idea what crouch cancelling is and who relies on it. Please explain.

 

[Frost | Odds]

How would you break down Mewtwo's neutral game?

Neon Black uses mostly shadow balls and dtilt, DD grabs unless he's making a hard read or something. When cornered, he'll typically float off the edge and camp a while before trying to mindgame in a safe return to the stage via TP.

Also, how do you guys respond to players who rely heavily on crouch cancelling?

Do the same yourself. Mewtwo's crouch cancel game is off the hook. It's very possible to lead into many extremely damaging combos off of CC'd dtilts against much of the cast.

Against the very rare opponent that beats you in the CC game (roy, bowser), it's a bit tougher. You're gonna have to be a bit more dependent on shadow balls, dashdance grabs, and ftilts to maintain spacing.

 

[StriderAaron360]

I have no idea what that means, but I would describe Mewtwo as a POWERFUL fighter, but he comes at the cost of high mobility and lack of combo-resistance. I would NOT describe him as a glass cannon. It's just... inaccurate. I have no idea what crouch cancelling is and who relies on it. Please explain.

Neutral refers to what he should be doing when getting ready to approach his opponent. Or if he's offstage and is trying to get back. Crouch cancelling is when you hold down to crouch in anticipation of an attack. Once you get hit, you'll generally hit the ground immediately in place. This allows you to counter attack faster.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Neutral refers to what he should be doing when getting ready to approach his opponent.

Neutral is when you and your opponent are both onstage, dancing around, trying to find an opening.

Once you get hit, you'll generally hit the ground immediately in place. This allows you to counter attack faster.

If you're low enough damage and the attack that hits you has insufficient knockback, you completely ignore hitstun. Thus, CCing can be even better for counterattacking than powershielding.

 

[U-Throw]

Crouch cancelling sound awesome. I'll definently use it more. I think it's a very important aspect and I like it. When getting ready to approach. Charge a Shadow to counter in case they attempt to dodge. Then run forward and use your dash attack to send them into the air and link for combos. You could also use disable or confusion to disorient your enemy. Also try dash grabbing or shield grabbing. DJC is also a good option. You could fake out and cause them to jump and then hit them with a shadow ball. When recovering, always try to attack the edge guarder out of Teleport. Always use confusion AFTER teleport, unless your stage spiking. Hovering is also a good option. You can also save your Double jump/hover for after teleport to confuse them. Right, also don't teleport left or right or down and expect to Hover/Double jump out if it. It doesn't work. Ledge stalling is also a good option.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Crouch cancelling sound awesome. I'll definently use it more. I think it's a very important aspect and I like it. When getting ready to approach. Charge a Shadow to counter in case they attempt to dodge. Then run forward and use your dash attack to send them into the air and link for combos.

Don't approach with Mewtwo unless you're behind and the clock is running out, or as a mixup. Far more than most, Mewtwo benefits from forcing opponents to approach *him*. Please don't use your dash attack unless you absolutely have to in order to continue a combo, or you're otherwise 100% sure it'll connect: it's godawful, especially compared to the rest of your kit. Your default action in pretty much every neutral situation should be either:

1. Charge and/or throw a shadow ball
2. Dtilt, aimed to miss
3. Dashdance/wavedash/hovercancel around a bit.

You could also use disable or confusion to disorient your enemy

Disable seems like a great tool. NB hasn't worked it into his game all that much yet (except against my Bowser), but it seems pretty good to punish opponents who're being just a little bit too aggro at >60% or so. Link it into a downsmash if you can, or a grab->dtilt combo if you can't.

When recovering, always try to attack the edge guarder out of Teleport.

Actually, it's probably better in most cases to either sweetspot the edge or TP safely to the middle of the stage. Having the tele-attack option is great, and should be used for a mixup, but doing it too often is a great way to get yourself shieldgrabbed or hard read->fsmashed.

 

[U-Throw]

Thanks for the pointers. I'll use them. I want to play the best Mewtwo I possibly can!!!!

 

[ss118]

So I'm going to play some project m and record it, and I'll use mainly Mewtwo but I'll dabble in Ivysaur here and there(my main since 2.5). Any particular match-ups you guys would like to see me try and play versus? My two friends can use everyone but Peach, Yoshi, [Toon] Link, Ice Climbers, Wolf, Pikachu, Ivysaur, [Zero Suit] Samus, Pit, Olimar, Snake, Sonic.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm curious to see another m2 vs Bowser and Kirby.

 

[ss118]

One of my friends can really use Kirby, but I'm not sure about his Bowser... we'll just wait and see.

 

[Serris]

Hover canceled f-air > grab attack > d-throw > upward f-tilt seems to work nicely as a starting combo at 0%. It feels safe, but can someone tell me if it actually is?

 

[ss118]

Against who exactly? The ftilt has trouble connecting against some people without bad DI.

 

[MetaKnight0]

I think this is incredibly pessimistic. He's easily in the top 5 characters, imo. Just has a bit of a learning curve.

that would imply that mewtwo now has at least an even matchup if not advantageous against all of his prior horrible matchups (falcon peach fox puff and to a lesser extent sheik marth falco and ganon), not to mention he'd need to compete with ivysaur, bowser, pit, metaknight, wolf, sonic and all the other very strong P:M characters.

im not being a pessimist im being a realist. its not like being just above mid tier removes you from competitive play.

 

[Frost | Odds]

that would imply that mewtwo now has at least an even matchup if not advantageous against all of his prior horrible matchups (falcon peach fox puff and to a lesser extent sheik marth falco and ganon), not to mention he'd need to compete with ivysaur, bowser, pit, metaknight, wolf, sonic and all the other very strong P:M characters.

im not being a pessimist im being a realist. its not like being just above mid tier removes you from competitive play.

My estimates about specific MUs:


Old matchups:

Falcon: at least 60:40 m2 overall, though I think it might favor Falcon on some stages.
Sheik: pretty damn even matchup.
Peach: this was relatively even (for how bad M2 was) in Melee. Haven't played this one yet, but I'd be shocked if it didn't favor m2 by a wide margin
Puff: I haven't played this one, weirdly. Will try soon. Have no idea how it'll pan out.
Marth: probably 60:40 Marth. Maybe 65:35. I think this is m2's worst MU
Falco: I think 60:40 m2, at least. Powershielding lasers is totally trivial now. Confusion also reflects them, and m2 has a *gross* combo and edgeguarding game against Falco. Also, Falco can no longer really punish M2's recovery, and he's much heavier so m2 won't die as quickly. All that said, I haven't played the MU myself, so am not super certain about how it plays out.

New matchups:

Ivysaur: Not sure about this one. Razor leaf is 100% useless against Mewtwo, but Ivy has a strong neutral game, and that up-b probably kills m2 pretty easily. I don't think he can compete with shadow balls and dtilt, though, so I bet this favors m2.
Bowser: This favored Mewtwo at least 60:40 in Melee, and we've played a ton of it in P:M, but i'm not really sure what to call this one. It's *VERY* map dependent. Bowser owns M2 on small stages, and vice versa for large ones.
It's also super dependent on the consistency of the Mewtwo's punish game. If it's not great, than this definitely favors Bowser: but the scale slides toward m2 as both players increase in skill I think.
Pit: Haven't the foggiest.
MK: I think this probably favors MK, but I can't play him for ****, so don't really know.
Wolf/Sanic: see MK

Diddy also wins a gold star for "should completely own mewtwo but totally doesn't because Confusion and powershield change banana ownership".

As always, I could be completely wrong about any or all of this. As background, I'm one of the better Melee players in the province - and much better at P:M than I am at melee. My roommate Neon Black is somewhat worse than me at Melee (he wins maybe 40% of our games, and not usually by much), but typically curbstomps me with Mewtwo in PM when he's on point and not making terrible technical errors.

I play a lot of matchups against him in an attempt to train him into the ULTIMATE WEAPON

 

[Zoa]

Sup Mewtwo P:M community. Kinda new here, but have been playing Smash since the original. Haven't touched Melee in years, and switched to P:M recently because I can't really stomach Brawl's physics anymore. I'm looking to improve my game play so I can eventually attend things like Apex. Would you folks mind answering some questions? Thanks in advance.

What mix ups would you recommend I actively use in Mewtwo's neutral game? Especially for off stage recoveries?
Is down throw more of a tech chase move at low to mid percents? I know it can lead into dtilt then.
For character MUs that have lots of range, such Bowser or Marth, what counterpicks would work?

I have a question for Shell. I was doing some tests for hitboxes on FD with a few characters and noticed something strange. For projectiles like super Aura Sphere, Charge Shot, and Shadow Ball, it appears that there's some kind of "super sweetspot" just after launching it. The knockback is higher and produces significant horizontal knockback with a somewhat low trajectory. Mewtwo's Fsmash seems to have a tiny hitbox in the sweetspot of it. Is there a higher base knockback/higher knockback scaling hitbox in these attacks, or is my practice partner terrible with DI?

 

[DrinkingFood]

the start-up time is determined by the number of frames of Jump Squat prior to jumping (still 3 afaik)

but shell
it was 5 in melee

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Mewtwo is without a doubt not in the top 5. Even more he wouldn't "easily" attain that rank. Remember that MU's are what create tier lists not the character itself (Spacies probably excluded because shine coupled with lasers gives them a superior neutral game to pretty much everyone.) But I do think Mewtwo has a good number of decent MU's and I think he could above average (if not just average). Then again like Mewtwo other characters haven't fully developed their metagames. We'll have to wait longer to get a good grasp of where Mewtwo will fall in the tier list.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Sup Mewtwo P:M community. Kinda new here, but have been playing Smash since the original. Haven't touched Melee in years, and switched to P:M recently because I can't really stomach Brawl's physics anymore. I'm looking to improve my game play so I can eventually attend things like Apex. Would you folks mind answering some questions? Thanks in advance.

What mix ups would you recommend I actively use in Mewtwo's neutral game? Especially for off stage recoveries?
Is down throw more of a tech chase move at low to mid percents? I know it can lead into dtilt then.
For character MUs that have lots of range, such Bowser or Marth, what counterpicks would work?

I have a question for Shell. I was doing some tests for hitboxes on FD with a few characters and noticed something strange. For projectiles like super Aura Sphere, Charge Shot, and Shadow Ball, it appears that there's some kind of "super sweetspot" just after launching it. The knockback is higher and produces significant horizontal knockback with a somewhat low trajectory. Mewtwo's Fsmash seems to have a tiny hitbox in the sweetspot of it. Is there a higher base knockback/higher knockback scaling hitbox in these attacks, or is my practice partner terrible with DI?

I have some movement options/mixups in the movement thread I started. But in general SB's, hovering, wavedashing to space tilts work well in neutral. Teleport works well in neutral too (although others might tell you it doesn't, which is true in some MU's).

Typically when I'm using D-Throw I've just jabbed and opponent. Jab > Dtilt > Dthrow > (DI dependent follow up) is so easy to make happen. At low percents Dthrow is more of a combo starter as it's knockback is more vertical than horizontal. If the opponent DI's away from you out of Dthrow at low perecnts = HELLO! Fair.

I don't know much about counterpicking but I will say BF is always a great stage for Mewtwo his ability to move around on that stage is ridiculous.

 

[Shell]

but shell
it was 5 in melee

Sorry I was writing that post at work, jump squat is definitely the same between PM and Melee.

 

[2 C H i L L E D]

Aye. Hover > Bair > Bair > Uair > (Land) Utilt is so sexy.

 

[Zoa]

Appreciate it, 2CHILLED.