Fixing impractical moves in Brawl+

[Plum]

Yeah we could fix every useless move but some are unnecessary.

Look at Wario's Dsmash. I genuinely think it is the worst move in the game. I have yet to find a use for it. Even at high percents I get punished for hitting the opponent. It lasts so ungodly long that the move just becomes pointless, and using it becomes a bad idea because even if the opponent is hit, they will punish you.

But Wario is freaking amazing in Brawl+. He is freaking amazing in vBrawl. Then Brawl+ took away all the bad things about him, mainly grab release shenanigans. A heavy character means he is hard to kill. Good recovery means he is even harder to kill. Freakishly floaty making him hard to combo and rack up percent on making him even harder to kill, again. Great aerial game, good ground game, fairly good combo game, nice finishers, basically he has enough going for him. So he doesn't need a buff to his Dsmash, despite it being horrible.

 

[Foresight]

Kitamerby, please don't censor dodge so flagrantly.

Also, like Leaf repeatedly states, power creep isn't an issue, because we can always just retract changes and make things that are too good worse later on.

Yes, but trying to keep the changes that we enact balanced in the first place will save us time and hassle later on. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, or however that saying goes. You can determine if some changes would be way overpowered without ever trying them out in the game. That's why I'm not a fan of just increasing Sing's sleep effect time without doing something else to balance it out.

 

[The Cape]

Fact of the matter is, testing something new isnt a problem, but leaving something broken in is.

As for Ganon U tilt I finally finished it.

I sped it up five times (it hits about frame 12). It now does 12 damage and hits up and slightly forward with weak KB. This makes it more like a regular tilt and still uses the suck in properties of the move.

 

[illinialex24]

Fact of the matter is, testing something new isnt a problem, but leaving something broken in is.

As for Ganon U tilt I finally finished it.

I sped it up five times (it hits about frame 12). It now does 12 damage and hits up and slightly forward with weak KB. This makes it more like a regular tilt and still uses the suck in properties of the move.

Thats kinda fast still, can you make it hit on frame 15??

 

[:mad:]

No it doesn't, it has a lot more power, it is strong enough in its own way.

PK Thunder. Not PKT2. If you played as Ness and Lucas, you might realize the noticeable differences. How you can edgeguard with Lucas, but not with Ness, due to the fact that Ness's is pathetic. All Marth has to do is grab you by the edge, take away your second jump with a Fair, and land in the PKT. Lucas can survive because his goes right through.

It has just as much power, if not less.

 

[illinialex24]

PK Thunder. Not PKT2. If you played as Ness and Lucas, you might realize the noticeable differences. How you can edgeguard with Lucas, but not with Ness, due to the fact that Ness's is pathetic. All Marth has to do is grab you by the edge, take away your second jump with a Fair, and land in the PKT. Lucas can survive because his goes right through.

It has just as much power, if not less.

I meant both, I meant the fact that PKT can be interrupted by throwing yourself in it, while PKT2 can really be a pretty good edgeguard move and good range. But PKT and PKT2 should be put together. And Marth should dair you anyway... its no different... Its part of the matchup.

 

[:034:]

Thats kinda fast still, can you make it hit on frame 15??

Why would you want that? Frame 12 already makes it his slowest tilt :/

Anyway, good job Cape, show some vids of it in action next time. ;D

 

[:mad:]

I meant both, I meant the fact that PKT can be interrupted by throwing yourself in it, while PKT2 can really be a pretty good edgeguard move and good range. But PKT and PKT2 should be put together. And Marth should dair you anyway... its no different... Its part of the matchup.

By having a stronger move, you give up a lot. PKT2 with Lucas goes much farther, and can't be as easily edgehogged as Ness's. No. PKT and PKT2 are two entirely different moves.

PKT2 as an edgeguard? That's risky, extremely. Ness has it bad enough, fixing PKT2 would give me enough reason to try out Brawl+. x.x

 

[illinialex24]

Oh wow did I say PKT2, I meant PKT as Lucas a good edgeguard if they are low below the stage. And 12 is almost as fast as Falcon's, it should be a slow move.

 

[:mad:]

We're talking about Ness, and how bad his PKT is... >___>
You're just pointing out the obvious by saying Lucas can edgeguard with it.

 

[illinialex24]

His move isn't that bad, as far as clones go, they were balanced very well. You shouldn't change it.

 

[The Cape]

Video of Ganon U tilt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6qzfEnuWDQ

 

[illinialex24]

I dunno, it seems a bit fast.

 

[VietGeek]

Lol it's as fast as Marth's fsmash/TL's ftilt. It looks very "interesting" as well.

We'd have to see it in real action.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Tink's ftilt needs to be faster or have more knockback. It just doesnt feel right to have a frame 12 ftilt that doesnt kill and has crap range. Dtilt needs to ...spike like it used to lol. Nah dtilt is alright maybe make it trip more and have less knockback (to allow for more followups). His upB needs to disable DI like mk's tornado and have more knockback. ( also when u charge it it is a lot more powerful)

EDIT: the cape that utilt isnt balanced at all :/.

 

[VietGeek]

Tink's ftilt needs to be faster or have more knockback. It just doesnt feel right to have a frame 12 ftilt that doesnt kill and has crap range. Dtilt needs to ...spike like it used to lol. Nah dtilt is alright maybe make it trip more and have less knockback (to allow for more followups). His upB needs to disable DI like mk's tornado and have more knockback. ( also when u charge it it is a lot more powerful)

TLM...

they won't be buffing TL...like ever.

Well, maybe if we bribe them...<_<

Alright TL gang, let's act like a low-tier board pl0x.

 

[The Cape]

Its a first try on it that took me three hours to make.

Gimme some time to fix it up :-p

 

[TLMSheikant]

Thecape- its ok frame 12 but its knockback should be less lol. We are low tier!!! Fix us!! there viet. lol


EDIT: NVm the KB is nerfed. Sorry, I just assumed it was the same until I read ur earlier post. I cant see utube in this comp.

 

[Foresight]

Wow Cape, from that video I think you made the Utilt a bit too fast. It looks pretty good though, should be able to combo into it pretty easily now. It may need to be a made a bit slower for balance.

 

[The Cape]

I reworked the knockback growth on it, it kills around 160% with no DI.

As for TL, what can we really do for him. He feels really beastly as is and I cant really think of anything he may need.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Well what I said he has 2 useless moves still. Ftilt and upB (can be DId out of and shielded inbetween hits pretty easily). Hes a beast in brawl + but I think no character disserves to have useless moves.

 

[Foresight]

What's the third?

Besides, UpB isn't useless, it's also a recovery move. It's not very good on stage, but its range and speed make it hard to make the move good without making it broken. I think all of TL moves are usable in some capacity.

 

[alvicala]

nvm, off topic.

 

[lordhelmet]

What I think is that Tink could use some of these buffs:

>FTilt is pretty much useless. Its too slow and has low range (like TLMSheikant said)
>UTilt just isnt good... its not a good combo starter since it has more knockback than necessary but not enough to KO at decent percents. For a move like that I´d rather use USmash all the time.
>DTilt suffers in the same way as Utilt... to much (horizontal) knockback to be a combo starter.
>Also PLEASE no FF Dair. Its a very risky move that doesnt have much reward (especially offstage).
>Dash attack is not good at all. It sends enemies horizantally, which isnt usuful at all for follow-ups. It should deal vertical knockback.

Now *sigh* nerfs:
DSmash lolz. Near the edge, when the enemy is at 0%-25%, DSmash deals a LOT of horizontal knockcback.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86DRn6AK8VU -> This is what I´m talkin about (its vBrawl in the video but it remains the same in Brawl+)

These are just some ideas, they are not completely neccesary. Tink is a pretty good character so I wouldnt mind if it stood the same. His projectiles and aerials are ****.

Except for Dash Attack and NO FF Dair. He needs that D=

I agree with everything he said.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Ness: Frame 1 Jab, faster PK Fire and bat.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

wtf? this thread is about impractical moves, not you guys personal buff wishlist for your mains

 

[The Cape]

Popsicle, reasonings?

alvica?

I am working on fixing the TL D smash glitch as its on my list of things to do today actually.

For the rest of the suggestions we can definetly look into them, but have you considered other uses for the moves? Such as using dash attack as an edgeguard and such?

I dont have alot of time with TL so I dont know all his moves in depth, but I definetly know he is pretty beastly. If we can get some good suggestions and ways to fix his bad moves maybe we can.

 

[TLMSheikant]

^ Well theyre impractical. Utilt isnt bad at all alvicala. >_> The dash attack I forgot that one. Jainjunizzy- play tink and use ftilt and tell me if it isnt impractical. Ive mained tink since the start of brawl played a lot of matches, played in tournies place high and have never found a use for this move. >_>. The dsmash glitch will be difficult to lose but oh well all for the sake of balancing the game.

 

[The Cape]

I want to make D smash still work the same way if possible, but make it so that it doesnt have that stupid kill crap.

What about making it hit like Young Link's D smash as a backup plan?

 

[alvicala]

EDIT:
Since I was proven wrong so many times I´ll only insist on Dash Attack.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Thecape- yep it should be the same as melee. Kinda the same knockback. I dont think dair needs fixing its risky yet i dont see it being balanced if it isnt :s. Maybe if it has less knockback...as a meteor.

 

[PKNintendo]

I cannot believe NO ONE suggested that we changed Ness' psi magnet.
It's really a bad move, the push back effect sucks, and startup isn't that great either.

My suggestions would be:
Increased Range
Wind effect is much greater (TL Dair ish)
When using it in the air, the falling speed is greatly slower.

 

[stingers]

uhhh

Psi magnet does what it's supposed to do perfectly -- absorb predictable projectiles

(Energy ones)

 

[PKNintendo]

But it's a bad move.
It helps in absolutely 0 matchups.

I mean, I used to think it helped in the Zelda matchup but a Smart player can work around the Psi magnet.

 

[The Cape]

We cant increase the range on Ness Psi Magnest but we might be able to increase the KB on it.

As for the no FF dairs the only ones that really seem to be needed would be GW and Sheik.

The rest all play out with multiple uses and are good moves.

For TL down smash though, people want to see Young Link style?

 

[Dark Sonic]

But I am sure that FF Dairs need fixing so they dont fastfall. Not only for Tink but for other characters as well (ZSS, GAW, Sonic, Sheik and maybe other that I dont remember right now). If these Dairs didnt fast fall they would be much more useful (especially as meteors) since they would be manipulated with more ease.

WTF? NO! That is a terrible idea! Sonic and ZSS specifically use their dairs for the purpose of GETTING TO THE GROUND. They are very aerial oriented characters and need that quick method of bailing out and getting ground again.

G&W arguably prefers the falling dair too because of the range and disjointedness it has, in addition to the speed he moves. It makes it much harder to counter attack and outrange it (there are several moves that do ourange it, but they're harder to time because of how fast he moves and the small range difference)

Even Toon Link would rather keep it, but have it's lag reduced so he doesn't die off stage is all. The only one of that list who would truely be better off with no fast fall dair at all (rather than a tweaked version) is Sheik.

 

[PKNintendo]

We cant increase the range on Ness Psi Magnest but we might be able to increase the KB on it.

As for the no FF dairs the only ones that really seem to be needed would be GW and Sheik.

The rest all play out with multiple uses and are good moves.

For TL down smash though, people want to see Young Link style?

Sounds fine I suppose.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Thecape- It would give tink a better kill move (which we need). Just leave it at frame 9 (like in melee) plz no mk broken shizzle.

 

[JCaesar]

I'd like to see all the air puff type moves have a stronger push. It's an interesting game mechanic that doesn't get used enough.

I wouldn't mind seeing FLUDD/water gun have more push also (maybe even scale up with damage?) but they're far from useless how they are now.

 

[Magus420]

I don't know why people think Sheik's d-air isn't good and needs 'fixing' >_>