Fire Juggling by Darkmusician

[Darkmusician]

Thanks. =]

As of today, I managed to link Din's Fire with a fair. Too good! :D

Very nice. :]

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ok, so your Fsmash and Usmash aren't good against them and your L-kicks are hard to land... You still have the Dsmash (strong and fast), Neutral Air (easy to hit with multi-hit, good damage), Dtilt (quick, pops them up), Utilt (very high knockback, good kill), Ftilt (decent knockback), Utilt (great kill move), Din's Fire, Naryu's Love, your dash attack, your throws. And if you can land an L-Kick, Upair, or Thunder Spike, it's basically game over right there due to their lightness. I'd say this is a weakness that can be worked around.

well, certainly you do... but the strongest moves of her repetoir are gone agqainst tinies. and some, like olimar, will make it hard for her to get close enough to pull of her other moves. I'm not saying she doesn't stand a chance aganst them, just that zelda is built to hndle big and heavy characters. Small and light ones really give her all sorts of trouble.

 

[Wildfire393]

well, certainly you do... but the strongest moves of her repetoir are gone agqainst tinies. and some, like olimar, will make it hard for her to get close enough to pull of her other moves. I'm not saying she doesn't stand a chance aganst them, just that zelda is built to hndle big and heavy characters. Small and light ones really give her all sorts of trouble.

I haven't done enough Brawl to really refute or accept this, but my melee experience tells me this isn't entirely true. Against floaty, small characters in Melee, it was still incredibly easy to set them up for the kill (dthrow into back air, ftilt into back air, etc). The ones that weren't as floaty (pichu, game and watch) posed slightly more trouble, but the fact that they died at like, 40% to a lightning kick made up for this significantly. And everyone is floatier in Brawl.

As for Olimar, a couple of surprise Naryu's Love throw him off pretty badly, and Din's Fire gives you a projectile of your own to force him on the offensive, where he really suffers (think Peach from Melee, only more so. At his best when he can sit back and projectile spam, forcing you to approach in to a downsmash). Up Air juggles also DEVASTATE him, as his down air has minimal range and priority

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I haven't done enough Brawl to really refute or accept this, but my melee experience tells me this isn't entirely true. Against floaty, small characters in Melee, it was still incredibly easy to set them up for the kill (dthrow into back air, ftilt into back air, etc). The ones that weren't as floaty (pichu, game and watch) posed slightly more trouble, but the fact that they died at like, 40% to a lightning kick made up for this significantly. And everyone is floatier in Brawl.

As for Olimar, a couple of surprise Naryu's Love throw him off pretty badly, and Din's Fire gives you a projectile of your own to force him on the offensive, where he really suffers (think Peach from Melee, only more so. At his best when he can sit back and projectile spam, forcing you to approach in to a downsmash). Up Air juggles also DEVASTATE him, as his down air has minimal range and priority

see, this is where we differ, I have a lot of brawl experience under my belt (relatively speaking) and zelda just doesn't work like she did in melee.

the lightning kick is uber strong, but it's sweetspot is way harder to hit with now to the point of being near useless against smaller-than-average enemies, period. and it can't be comboed into against anything but big enemies. nayru's love has less range than olimar's smashes or grabs. also, olimar's air game destroys zeldas in their matchup. only her nair has a good chance of working well, but all of olimar's aerials will contine to do well. and olimar is frigtening even without spamming his pikmin throw. he has a plethora of strong moves with disjointed hitboxes at his disposal. and zelda ain't exactly a heavyweight.

 

[AKC12]

Hmm, it looked like the longer the fireball goes, the more damage. I remember seeing 8% on close range, and as much as 15% for far range... Jeesh, 2 Din's fire in a row=25-30%, that's just insane... also tough to dodge at certain percent...

 

[FinalKai]

Being an extremely enthusiastic Zelda player, I'm really liking what i've been seeing with Din's Fire. I never thought it was useless in Melee...and definitely used it as a staple of my arsenal - especially in 4 man free for all matches. It was pretty much an art form when it came to predicting how to direct it and when to release.

I know I definitely used it to set up for her heels...worked like a charm too. But from what i've seen of it in Brawl it seems like it consistently shoots the target straight up...whether or not DI contributes to that i'm not sure....but it seems like it might be harder for some heels to connect. Certainly makes for a great edge guarding game, and great lead-in offense, keep away, and defense. I don't know if i'd risk using it in close range despite the fact that the speed of its execution has been significantly increased. I just feel like she's got a better arsenal to dish out in close combat- Din's fire is tricky up close but might be useful for some mind games.

Overall i'm pleased with Din's Fire's performance so far in brawl makes me infinitely happier.

I have a few questions for Darkmusician though...

1) I've been watching your Zelda Brawl videos and noticed that you missed aiming Farore's Wind several times and in the exact same way...but in your melee videos you consistently (and most impressively) nabbed the sweet spot when using it. Do you find it harder to aim now?

Furthermore...I also noticed that when appearing from Farore's Wind it actually does some damage and decent knockback to anybody within or on the radius of appearance. Personally, i am considering using that as a means of offensive recovery (something Zelda lacked in melee when being thrown far off the stage)...and also seems like a pretty effective way to instantaneously enter the fray, while giving you some space to breathe when you emerge. I was just wondering if you have played around or at least considered that at all, and also how effective it is in terms of knocking people back when you teleport in.

2) I have to say that i was excited to see that they made her DAir a sort of alternative heel maneuver. I was definitely hoping for that to happen, considering that her DAir was the pits in Melee - especially at low percentages. Do you find that it's more effective now and can legitimately be used in her aerial game?

 

[Darkmusician]

Lightning Spike is real.

New vids being uploaded.

More Fire Juggling footage and me trying to be creative. (emphasis on trying) So I made quite a few mistakes.

But on the whole everyone I've played fears the fire. lolz

 

[Iris]

Hey, can Din's cancel projectiles? Pretty sure I saw a vid of Toon Link's boomerang vanishing in midair after getting hit by Din's Fire.

 

[Darkmusician]

Yes I think you can. And by the same token I think you can "clank" with the Fire if you time it correctly.

Ganon is sparta...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ooZoHiT4yA

 

[Luthien]

Ganon is sparta...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ooZoHiT4yA

@.@

...wow. Instead of rolling, can you just attack off the ground to escape Ganon's tech chase? If not, things are looking pretty good for Ganondorf right now.

 

[Darkmusician]

@.@

...wow. Instead of rolling, can you just attack off the ground to escape Ganon's tech chase? If not, things are looking pretty good for Ganondorf right now.

You can tech out of it. It's not a combo or anything. Rodney(Ganon) was just messing with his bother.

 

[Drake3]

I don't know if i'd risk using it in close range despite the fact that the speed of its execution has been significantly increased. I just feel like she's got a better arsenal to dish out in close combat- Din's fire is tricky up close but might be useful for some mind games.

I don't think Din's Fire should be used close range too. From what I've seen, it's far too weak and leaves her open for punishment. The only time I've seen it used effectively was when I'm 99% sure the Zelda player was aiming for Nayru's Love and slipped. Like you said, she's got other moves she can use for close-combat.

 

[Iris]

Yes I think you can. And by the same token I think you can "clank" with the Fire if you time it correctly.

That's great. Zelda won't be as vulnerable long range while using Din's Fire if she can just hit the projectiles coming at her with it with her fast detonation time. I think she could do it in Melee too, but the detonation was too slow for it to work well. Can the explosion both cancel projectiles and do damage to what's in the radius?

 

[Darkmusician]

Here's what I've found out.

Close range Din's Fire is useful but shouldn't be relied on as an approach. It's quick but the draw backs are obvious.

When an opponent shields a long range Din's Fire, it does major shield damage and pushes them back pretty far and can push them off the edge if they're close to it.

If the opponent thinks that shielding from far away is going to save them, aim Din's Fire behind them and at their feet. When the shield takes damage the first part to be exposed are the feet of the character. Din's Fire's hit box is so big that you will penetrate their shield in 2-3 shots if they refuse to move.

If they become wise to being killed off the top, use Din's Fire to force them to drop low. Even when not sweet spotted Zelda's Dair is a great kill move. I've noticed that even characters with tether recoveries like Toon Link and Olimar can be hit when they grab the side. I'm still working on perfecting that timing.
In this game Dair and Din's Fire are better than Kick for edge guards.

Also since most of Zelda's attacks hit the person up I plan on practicing the up air alot. It kills much faster than the foot and works wonders on small fighters like Meta Knight, Olimar, Squirtle and Lucas.

 

[Ztarfish]

I think Close-Range Din's should be used as a sort of shield when shorthopped into if you're going against someone with an aggressive approach and no projectiles.

But it looks much more effective as a long range offense.

 

[Darkmusician]

I think Close-Range Din's should be used as a sort of shield when shorthopped into if you're going against someone with an aggressive approach and no projectiles.

But it looks much more effective as a long range offense.

I agree. Short range Din's Fire is a nice aggressive approach to mix it up. But yeah overall it is a great damage builder/shield breaker/kill move off the edge.

 

[darkatma]

When I short range Din's I pivot it by running back a few steps and then using it. that way it's safer should you miss, or it could allow for spacing (circumstantial)

 

[Darkmusician]

Good idea. I have a few other ideas I'd like to try with it up close. I love spacing. It's such a constant.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I love the fact that the new Zelda has kill moves up the wazoo. I can definitely see the direction Sakurai was trying to take the character of Zelda/Sheik, but I still think Zelda should have been her own character. Especially since Transform was lengthened to almost uselessness.

 

[Darkmusician]

I love the fact that the new Zelda has kill moves up the wazoo. I can definitely see the direction Sakurai was trying to take the character of Zelda/Sheik, but I still think Zelda should have been her own character. Especially since Transform was lengthened to almost uselessness.

I was also praying for that. But I'm happy for those that like to use both. Can't please everyone I guess. :]

 

[AznHalfCaucasian]

Glad Sakurai buffed her Din's Fire.

Nice vid

 

[K Balls]

short range dins fire works for me.

 

[blueriku]

does din's fire do close range in the very beginning of the move as the ball of fire travels or is Zelda completely open at that point? i hope this question makes sense its kinda hard to ask with out showing it.

 

[Doodle2000]

I played brawl today and Zelda is so buffed, her tilts and her single jab is so great, the fire juggling was so easy to control and easy to hit. Gaaah, cant wait to get the game and start nerding Zelda!

 

[zKillah]

Think about applying this move to the doubles game. It could be an effective way to help a partner recover. Does the explosion still happen after Zelda is hit?

 

[Wildfire393]

Think about applying this move to the doubles game. It could be an effective way to help a partner recover. Does the explosion still happen after Zelda is hit?

I believe this works like it did in melee: If Zelda is hit while performing Din's fire, it will move along its current path until it reaches max range, then it will explode with whatever power it had at the time you got hit.

It could help your ally recover, but it'd deal them a large bit of damage in the process. Zelda's not the gentlest of projectilers. Pit would definitely be godly at that, as his projectiles only deal like 5% and can be aimed faster and even better than Zelda's.

 

[Drake3]

Think about applying this move to the doubles game. It could be an effective way to help a partner recover. Does the explosion still happen after Zelda is hit?

Or flat out kill them. I'll try to find the doubles match that effectively demonstrates this.

 

[Darkmusician]

I don't wanna be a team killing Fawktard. lolz

 

[Ztarfish]

I agree. Short range Din's Fire is a nice aggressive approach to mix it up. But yeah overall it is a great damage builder/shield breaker/kill move off the edge.

This made me giggle with joy. So basically it's everything you could want for from a move. xD

 

[RoyalLance]

I like the demo vid, DM. I posted it on my blog. Thanks for sharing the strategy.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Or flat out kill them. I'll try to find the doubles match that effectively demonstrates this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm6IzgWri34

Also, Din's Fire does still explode if you get hit while directing it. However, it will fly in a straight line, in the direction it was already flying, and it will explode at max distance automatically. If you press Over+B again before the fireball explodes, you will cause it to explode where it is instead of creating a new one, and go into the animation of blowing up the fireball.

 

[Darkmusician]

I like the demo vid, DM. I posted it on my blog. Thanks for sharing the strategy.

Np. It's all a learning in progress.

 

[Rikuo]

Have you tried using Din's Fire for recovery? I wonder if it'd be a reliable recovery move in certain situations since it distracts your ledge guarder. It might just be better to aim for them with Farore's Wind. How bad is the lag when you land from an aerial Din's Fire? I can't find a good video for it.

This is Arteia from YouTube, btw.

 

[Darkmusician]

Have you tried using Din's Fire for recovery? I wonder if it'd be a reliable recovery move in certain situations since it distracts your ledge guarder. It might just be better to aim for them with Farore's Wind. How bad is the lag when you land from an aerial Din's Fire? I can't find a good video for it.

This is Arteia from YouTube, btw.

I don't find the lag noticeable. I always used to short hop my Din's Fires. I like using it from a jump because I can use it while retreating and approaching.

I tried Din's Fire off the stage. I'd use it occasionally like float down and use it then grab the edge after. I'd probably just try to space my recovery well and get back on the stage without being too fancy.

 

[Nyagamun]

it works pretty wonderfully as a recovery move in my experience. If you're high up in the air, and know you can make it, aim it directly down...it should explode almost right below you. You're fairly vulnerable after, so if they saw it coming, you can get horribly punished.

Aiming directly for them with farore's wind works similarly as a surprise attack coming back to the stage

I haven't tried it yet-friend has a copy of brawl, not me - but just thought about using din's fire while fast falling back to the stage. IF it's possible, the fire should probably ignite almost directly on top of you

ALSO, you should be able to combo directly into din's fire from a short hop fair sweet spot IF you did fair right after leaving the ground.

 

[Pikaville]

That looks pretty sweet.I kinda makes up for what they did to Sheik.Guess Ill just have to do what I always wanted to do in melee and use sheik and zelda together.(I hope anyway)

 

[Justice7541]

That looks pretty sweet.I kinda makes up for what they did to Sheik.Guess Ill just have to do what I always wanted to do in melee and use sheik and zelda together.(I hope anyway)

Unfortunately, the transformation makes that pretty much impossible.

Regardless, Din's Fire is now pwnage. Add that to Zelda's generally improved moveset (I whiff a lot of sweetspots now, but I should be getting used to the new hitbox soon), and I won't have to listen to the morons at my school tell me "Dude, like, transform into Sheik already!" Unfortunately, I also lose the pleasure of killing them anyway.

Also, thank you for fixing the animation on her Uptilt to actually match the hitbox so I can more accurately gauge where the hell it is I'm aiming at.

 

[goodkid]

Fire Juggling is really hard to avoid at the moment. Characters with a reflecting or absorbing attack will have an easier time avoiding it than without. Even with air dodge, it is hard to avoid it because Zelda can just attack you once you've finally gotten to the ground safely.

 

[Darkmusician]

Yep. I'm sure wifi lags the reaction time of air dodging slightly as well.

See my FC below my name. Go ahead and add me and we can play.

 

[Ztarfish]

Wifi also lags Din's too. Ugh.
Anyhow you should add me :D