Final Zelda Discussion - What's In, what's out?

[dynamic_entry]

yeah, i agree with Lando....uh, i mean, diddy...

 

[petre]

...some pictures...

The fact that they are rendered in unique art styles makes TP Link and WW Link unique. Regardless, either Old Link or Young Link are more important to the Zelda series than Marth and Ike are combined to the Fire Emblem series.

Case dismissed.

not dissmissed. ooh ones real looking 3-D modeled and ones drawn with crayons they're so different! not necessarialy. and your point about a link being more important to the zelda series than marth or ike are to the fire emblem series doesnt really stand either. i think you should be aware that the link in any given zelda game is different than any other link from any other game, even though they may look the same (true for most zelda games i believe, maybe the same link for the n64 games, and i know the same one was in gba's ages/seasons. marth has been in 2 FE games as well, and ike is about to be in his second with the release of the newest FE on wii.). WW link was only important to the WW zelda game, as ike has only been important to the PoR fire emblem game (so far). the art style being different doesnt really mean a thing, just that the overall style of that game was different to portray the setting and story in a different fashion. if they happened to make FEoR (the game ike hails from) entriely cel-shaded, or used some other art style, would your view be different? the fact is, while the two links look different, the majority of their actions/abilities are the same. and the same goes for marth/ike.

i want to inform you however that if i had my wish list for brawl, marth would not be on it, and neither would WW link. im just saying you cant simply use art style as a reason that a character is better/worse or deserves a spot more.

 

[Wiseguy]

not dissmissed.

Very well. State your case.

ooh ones real looking 3-D modeled and ones drawn with crayons they're so different! not necessarialy.

One is rendered in a realistic graphical style, the other in a cell-shaded cartoony style. Not only do are these different incarnations of Link unique from one another, but they contrast each other nicely.

and your point about a link being more important to the zelda series than marth or ike are to the fire emblem series doesnt really stand either. i think you should be aware that the link in any given zelda game is different than any other link from any other game, even though they may look the same (true for most zelda games i believe, maybe the same link for the n64 games, and i know the same one was in gba's ages/seasons. marth has been in 2 FE games as well, and ike is about to be in his second with the release of the newest FE on wii.).

It's usually customary to finish one thought before you begin another. Just a little piece of advice for future referance. Okay, let's see what I can disect from this mess...

1) I know that most of there are many individual "Links" through out the Zelda series, but if Melee is any indication they will choose two of Link's recent incarnations to represent all of them. The Link in Wind Waker is identical in appearance to the Link from Minish Cap and the Four Swords games. Plus, most of the Links have appeared as children - so it stands to reason that at least one "Young Link" will be included.

2) I am aware that Marth was in two games and Ike will see star in his second game: Fire Emblem Goddess of Dawn. However, some form of "Young Link" has appeared in most Zelda games including the original Legend of Zelda and A Link to the Past. Thus, Young Link is a more important character to his series than either Marth or Ike are to their's.

WW link was only important to the WW zelda game, as ike has only been important to the PoR fire emblem game (so far).

Actually, WW Link is starring in the DS Wind Waker sequel: The Legend of Zelda Phantom Hourglass.

the art style being different doesnt really mean a thing, just that the overall style of that game was different to portray the setting and story in a different fashion. if they happened to make FEoR (the game ike hails from) entriely cel-shaded, or used some other art style, would your view be different? the fact is, while the two links look different, the majority of their actions/abilities are the same. and the same goes for marth/ike.

Your logic makes me question my own sanity.

Mendez got after me for being in favor of wanting both TP Link and WW Link in the same game even though I have made it clear that both Marth and Ike shouldn't be in the same game because they are too similar in appearance.

My reply was to show that the two Links are actually fairly different in appearance because they are rendered in different visual styles. That's all I'm saying. Savy?

i want to inform you however that if i had my wish list for brawl, marth would not be on it, and neither would WW link. im just saying you cant simply use art style as a reason that a character is better/worse or deserves a spot more.

You are entitled to your opinion, but there are plenty more reasons to include WW Link than his unique art style. Not only does he represent all "Young Links" in the Zelda series (from the LoZ to MC) but he is also the main character in two of the most recent and high profile Zelda games: Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass.

 

[zerosin]

I think all four should come back:
(1) I play them all
(2) Well, TP Link (based on vids) is a definite; do we really need another? Maybe a wolf version or something with different items instead of a bomb and boomerang (only option in my mind)
(3) I find Zelda much more appealing the more I play her. A TP version of Zelda could be even cooler
(4) Shiek I like for some pretty obvious reasons (e.g. f-tilt, f-air, b-air, daggers, vanish trick); however, in another SSBB vid, Zamus had what looked like Shiek tilts. Could mean something significant.
(5) Like Wiseguy, if I were to have two links, I'd take TP and WW Links. To quote, he verbalizes my reason pretty well:

he represent all "Young Links" in the Zelda series (from the LoZ to MC)

. A Young Link in a different art style could be cool. G&W had a quasi-interesting art style; why can't Link?

 

[WESTRON]

I think they should boot young link because he's a mirror and replace him with WWlink who has the potential for an entirely different moveset other than being awesome. It would also add a cool unique flavor to the game that could be implimented in stages and items.

 

[Stryks]

Yep pretty much everyone has the same opinion as you westron, one more on the winning side!!

 

[Hitokiri Battousai]

Ditto. I do think that the diversity of characters through not just movesets but art styles makes the game that much more interesting. If we possibly had a cel-shaded Ganondorf that would be cool (though I prefer the TP Ganondorf). Think! What about a the cel-shaded style of Link with the Four Sword?! THAT would be VERY interesting. His Final Smash would be him splitting into four and obliterating his enemy. ^^

 

[petre]

so what, you guys want a cel-shaded version of every character? lets make a cel-shaded version of brawl while we're at it!

and wiseguy, i dont know how quickly you can just assume the links from all the 2D zelda games was either child link or adult link. i know when they show him in the game boy zelda games, he looks waaay different than either adult link or young link. so im not sure which to classify that as. if you know for a fact that they intended LttP and all previous zeldas to be younger links, then fine, i'll agree young link is really important to the series.

i just dont like WW link.

 

[Fawriel]

"Shigeru Miyamoto has said in interviews that his conceptualization of The Legend of Zelda series and of Link was based on his childhood memories of books, movies and stories. In one of the interviews, he tells us he tried to make people identify with Link and have the opportunity to be heroes like the character. The games conform to his view: although at the end of some games Link becomes vastly talented in physical and magical arts, Link always starts as a regular boy when the game begins."

"On the design of Link in The Wind Waker, Miyamoto explained, "Link was a young boy and trying to create a very active and very energetic young boy and trying to choose the right style for portraying the young boy in a game like that we tried many different experiments. The ultimate decision we came to was that the cel-shading in The Wind Waker was the best option for expressing that.""

"Link appears as a young Hylian boy, the equivalent to human in The Legend of Zelda mythos. He is renowned for his fighting skill, such as his incredible boomerang accuracy.[18] It is unlikely that his age ever exceeds 19 years at any point in the series, though apparently, in most games he is closer to the age of 7 to 12."

And so on.

Also, several Links have starred in more than one game.

Zelda 1 - Zelda 2
Link to the Past - Link's Awakening
Ocarina of Time - Majora's Mask
Wind Waker - Phantom Hourglass

Just a side note.

 

[Wiseguy]

"Shigeru Miyamoto has said in interviews that his conceptualization of The Legend of Zelda series and of Link was based on his childhood memories of books, movies and stories. In one of the interviews, he tells us he tried to make people identify with Link and have the opportunity to be heroes like the character. The games conform to his view: although at the end of some games Link becomes vastly talented in physical and magical arts, Link always starts as a regular boy when the game begins."

"On the design of Link in The Wind Waker, Miyamoto explained, "Link was a young boy and trying to create a very active and very energetic young boy and trying to choose the right style for portraying the young boy in a game like that we tried many different experiments. The ultimate decision we came to was that the cel-shading in The Wind Waker was the best option for expressing that.""

"Link appears as a young Hylian boy, the equivalent to human in The Legend of Zelda mythos. He is renowned for his fighting skill, such as his incredible boomerang accuracy.[18] It is unlikely that his age ever exceeds 19 years at any point in the series, though apparently, in most games he is closer to the age of 7 to 12."

And so on.

Also, several Links have starred in more than one game.

Zelda 1 - Zelda 2
Link to the Past - Link's Awakening
Ocarina of Time - Majora's Mask
Wind Waker - Phantom Hourglass

Just a side note.

What he said, petre.

Thanks for saving me a bit of work Fawriel.

Anyway, I can't fathom why ANYONE would dislike WW Link. He's got more presonality than any other Link in the series and his game is by far one of the greatest in the series. Smash Bros is first and formost about honouring the Nintendo Allstars - and leaving out Young Link would be a travesty of the highest order.

 

[Chi's Finest]

I'm very open to other opinions, but anyone who thinks there will be a WW Link shouldn't even be allowed to play Brawl.

"But he looks different!!!!111"

Ok? And? Maybe we should have all 100 looks of Mario, and the other 10 looks of Link in here then.

 

[Fawriel]

HE'S A DIFFERENT PERSON FOR ****'S SAKE!


...


Some people would make Mahatma frikkin Ghandi run amuck. Seriously.

 

[Wiseguy]

I'm very open to other opinions, but anyone who thinks there will be a WW Link shouldn't even be allowed to play Brawl.

"But he looks different!!!!111"

Ok? And? Maybe we should have all 100 looks of Mario, and the other 10 looks of Link in here then.

It's usually best to read what has already been posted before coming into a discussion.

As I just pointed out, there is more than just his unique appearance that makes WW Link a strong contender for Brawl - as a replacement for Young Link. He is the main character in both Wind Waker and it's highly anticipated sequel Phantom Hourglass, he is indentical in appearance to the Link in the Minish Cap as well as the Four Sword games and he is representative of every "Young Link" in the series (and just about all of them fall into that category).

And yeah, he looks different from TP Link. That's just not the only reason he should get in.

 

[Wrath`]

so if the zelda franchise gets 6 character slots,here is how it will go.

The main 3: Link,Zelda,Ganon
Secondary main: Y.link/WW link
Secondary sidekick/helper: ????
Secondary villian: Vati,zant,dark link,ect..

 

[Diddy Kong]

The secondary helper character will most likely be Tingle... O_O

 

[JoeLewko]

Wait your saying Zelda should be out and Sheik should stay?? Wtf? Zelda must return, there are so many things they could do with her without Sheik. Sheik was only added in Melee cause Zelda herself wasn't all that unique, but now after TP and tWW Sakurai actually has quite something to draw moves from. The Light Arrows especially would be awesome.

Sheik won't be comming back. Neither in Brawl, nor in any other Zelda game. Midna probarly also won't, but atleast she was in TP which was the most recent Zelda. That, and Sheik's role was never too big anyway. Midna's was.

The only reason i think shiek needs to return was because she was such a good character. Zelda wasn't that good, and like i said before, anyone who selected Zelda always used Shiek instead., so it only makes sense to have Shiek as her own character, and possibly leave out Zelda.

 

[Fawriel]

...Joe, no offense*, but that is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have ever heard.

If the game was about having powerful characters, they might as well add Lord Pukenstein, who is a pile of puke and has puke attacks that involve puke. He has top priority, speed, grab range, recovery and comboing ability. Everyone loves Lord Pukenstein.


*okay, maybe a LITTLE offense

 

[Diddy Kong]

The only reason i think shiek needs to return was because she was such a good character. Zelda wasn't that good, and like i said before, anyone who selected Zelda always used Shiek instead., so it only makes sense to have Shiek as her own character, and possibly leave out Zelda.

That's just plain dumb. Sakurai doesn't give a crap about which characters are considered as "good". Neither do I really, since the characters are gonna change anyway. There's no way telling that Fox for example will be as good in Brawl as he was in Melee. Same goes for Sheik, IF she by some miracle returns she'll be nerfed to hell. Much like Kirby and Ness in SSB64 to Melee.

And yeah ofcoarse everybody uses Sheik instead of Zelda, she's just ****ing cheap and overpowered. I think that's just another reason to throw her out, so that people actually play as Zelda for a change.

 

[Wiseguy]

so if the zelda franchise gets 6 character slots,here is how it will go.

The main 3: Link,Zelda,Ganon
Secondary main: Y.link/WW link
Secondary sidekick/helper: ????
Secondary villian: Vati,zant,dark link,ect..

Midna would be an excellent choice for a secondary helper - either in Imp form, Twili form or riding on Wolf Link's back.

Also, Fawreil and Diddy Kong are 100% correct. Death to Sheik and her ridiculously unbalanced moveset!

 

[Vali]

Haven't there only ever been 2 games with Adult Link in, OOT and TP? I'd say that Adult Link was more of a secondary main than Young Link and since Young Link is now Cell-shaded Link (WW Link), I'd say WW Link was at least as important as Adult Link.

 

[Fawriel]

..oh yeah. I wonder why that point kept eluding me. Guess it just didn't really come up.
People who consider adult Link THE main Link have no idea about the series.

 

[Katy Parry]

thats so true

 

[LukeFonFabre]

Blasted Smashboards being weird so I couldn't log on for nearly a whole day.

Anyway, WW Link has pretty much branched into it's own part of the franchise, seeing as the style was used again in the Four Sword games and again in the Minish cap, and soon to appear in the Phantom Hourglass. To me, it seems as though the Cel shaded style of Link is here to stay. While the Link in brawl now arguably represents all Links, he can't rep the Cel shaded part of the franchise. Enter WW Link.

And as far as Sheik is concerned, the fact that she's so powerful gives more reason to drop her rather than have her return. Means they don't have to worry about how to nerf her and means that Zelda doesn't go to waste this time round.

And at least we know what gender Zelda is.

 

[Katy Parry]

lol well zeldas in, theres no doubt in my mind. @WISEGUY i sent u a pm.

shieks a dude.

 

[Vali]

Rule number 1: Sheik shall be referred to as she/he/it/potatoe at all times.

 

[Katy Parry]

ok, so arguements are not started.

 

[Wiseguy]

Rule number 1: Sheik shall be referred to as she/he/it/potatoe at all times.

This is disgarceful! How could I, the founder and president of the Shiek-Must-Die Club have forgotten my own rule?!?!

It won't happen again. Remember everyone: Sheik is neither a he nor a she, but a he/she/it/potatoe!

 

[Wrath`]

when did shiek become hated so much?out of she is good or useless in the series?

 

[Fawriel]

Sheik represents the whole problem of imbalance in Melee, for several reasons.

-She's not just overpowered like Marth, who's more like: "Hey, if you manage to always hit with the tip, he's ridiculously good!" Sheik is just so obviously overpowered you have to ask yourself whether the developers were drunk while tweaking the game.
-I've heard of people who had to stop using their beloved lower tier characters because people without skill could easily utilize the pre-programmed combos Sheik has.
-Zelda/Sheik is the very personification of imbalance.

*copies his rant from another ( locked ) thread*

"
Zelda was supposed to be strong and defensive, Sheik weak and fast.

Zelda has two usable attacks. Two broken moves, her fair and bair. The rest is useless. Useless. Useless. Useless. The meteor is a poke, the smashes aren't actually strong and can easily be escaped from, and what makes me even madder, her recovery SUCKS. It SUCKS. It goes a long distance yay whoopeedoofrikkingwhoo. It takes, like, a minute to start up, during which you are still vulnerable, it goes into a very limited amount of directions only, after popping up in midair, Zelda is still facing the direction she faced before if you went upwards, she will NOT move horizontally anymore because she doesn't FEEL LIKE IT OR SOMETHING, and then she lands and takes the time to adjust her dress or whatever.

Sheik has a moveset solely consisting of instant combos and powerful killers with GIANT FRIKKIN HITBOXES and priority all over the place. Yes, a little slap is more powerful than a sword. IT MAKES SENSE."


The fact that Sheik's unimportant just makes it more of a slap in the face.

 

[Vali]

when did shiek become hated so much?out of she/he/it/potatoe is good or useless in the series?

For me at least it's because you get a legion of fans that say "I want Sheik to return in Brawl", and this reason is split into about 3 parts:

The first part is that pretty much everyone puts he/she/it/potatoe down on their character prediction roster and doesn't include she/he/it/potatoe as a character.

The second is that people say "Zelda will be in so Sheik should too" even though Sheik has absolutely no relevance to Zelda outside of OOT since she/he/it/potatoe is a 1-off disguise and is no longer even a distant blip on the Zelda-importance radar.

Lastly the third part is the people that say "Sheik is so good in Melee she should return"/"If Sheik isn't included tons of people would be angry!" who not only in the first instance are breaking rule number 1, but as Diddy and Fawriel more than competantly pointed out a character won't be included just because they're good. That and people will either move on to one of the many many good characters sure to be added or just whoever is the strongest.

Oh and most Sheik fans can't spell Sheik's name right. Whats that about?

 

[Wiseguy]

when did shiek become hated so much?out of she is good or useless in the series?

SHEIK HAS BURNED OUR CROPS, KILLED OUR LIVESTOCK AND BROUGHT A PLAGUE UPON OUR HOUSES!!!!

Also, he/she/it/potatoe is one of the cheapest and most overused characters in Melee. Also, her absense from Twilight Princess all but guarantees that she will be cut from Brawl. Instead, we will see TP Zelda with a unique, Sheikless moveset.

 

[Numa Dude]

Guess which crappy Zelda characters support thread just got bumped.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

You know what I want to say, but I'll refrain from know.

But yeah, Kafei's a pretty uninspired choice.

 

[Katy Parry]

???????????

 

[Numa Dude]

I find it funny that the main supporter of Kafei (besides the guy who made the thread) was in fact one of the main guys who insulted and flamed me for HMS for reasons like he's unimportant. I mean really what kind of hypocrite does something like that.

 

[Katy Parry]

How many of you think Zelda will return?

 

[Vali]

Er...everyone? Was that meant to be rhetorical or ********?

 

[Numa Dude]

Someone please shoot me.

 

[Diddy Kong]

How many of you think Zelda will return?

GOD **** now you'd better quit asking this since it's so obvious that Zelda will return. I was about to say just as logical as Donkey Kong's return, but... Then I'd lie. But trust me, Zelda WILL return, now stop asking everyone it's getting annoying as hell.. -_-

 

[LukeFonFabre]

It wouldn't be so bad if he hadn't already asked that in another topic.

I'm going to be daring and say she does though. i know, the odds are against it, but I have this odd feeling about it.