Final Zelda Discussion - What's In, what's out?

[Johnknight1]

*Sigh* Guess Numa lacks imagination, and obviosuly deniying the truth

Minda for brawl!!1!!11one

I see it working, and all of use who beat TP should know what her final smash attack should and will be! *explosion goes off in the background* O ya and, Midna for BRAWL!!!

@ Numa Dude
Congratz on beating TP.

 

[drewdizzal]

How about have TP Beast Gannon as a cut scene for Ganondorf's final smash attack - like Kirby's. Gannondorf transorms, takes out massive damage on his oppoents and then transforms back. That wouldn't require creating a whole other character model.

That would just be the greatest. He would ram everyone on the screen and then teleport to the otherside and do it again! That or he'd just pull out his sword and cut the **** out of them, kinda like link's

TP GANON FOR BRAWL!!!!

 

[Wiseguy]

That would just be the greatest. He would ram everyone on the screen and then teleport to the otherside and do it again! That or he'd just pull out his sword and cut the **** out of them, kinda like link's

TP GANON FOR BRAWL!!!!

I'm glad you liked the idea. TP Ganondorf will be awesome in Brawl and thankfully he is one of the few characters who is practically guaranteed.

I beat TP yesterday and guess what, I STILL think Midna and Zant have no chance of getting in brawl for the same reasons I've been talking about this whole time. Playing the game and learning about the actual characters has done nothing to change my opinion on their chances of brawl(even though I think they are both cool now especially Zant).

Congrats on beating TP. Now that you've completed the game, what is your opinion of it? Do you feel it lives up to the Zelda name?

I'm at least glad that you've come to appreciate what a great character Midna is, even if you don't see her as Brawl potential. However, if you're up to it, I'm going to try and change your mind!

I haven't followed your ongoing debate with Stryks very closely, but from what I've gathered, the argument against Midna boils down to two points:

1) Midna isn't worthy of appearing in Smash Bros because she has only appeared in a single game - making her not as important to the series overall as reaccuring characters like Vaati and Skull Kid.

2) Sheik's inclusion in Melee after one game appearance is not a fair comparison since she is not a pure character addition, but one of Zelda's abilities.

Here are my counterarguments:

1) While it's technically true that Vaati has played a major role in three Zelda's while Midna, it seems to me that not all Zelda's are created equal. Think about it: did any of Vaati's games (FS, FSA and MC) generate the kind of excitment or critical acclaim that Twilight Princess did? Likewise, Skull Kid was the main villian in MM and a minor character in OoT and TP - but even if you add up all his contributions to the series, does it realy compare to Midna's role as THE main character in what is arguably the most high profile Zelda ever?

2) In my view, the fact that Sheik was included in Melee in the wake of OoT's popularity in spite of the fact that she was just Zelda's diguise is actually benefitial to Midna's chances of being in Brawl. If Zelda's alter ego was deamed worthy of a completly original moveset after appearing in a single game, isn't a major character like Midna worthy of the same treatment? Sheik may be just an ability, but she was just as time consuming to program into the game than any other character.

Personally, I think your argument that there are characters with greater importance to the series as a whole (and therefore more deserving to represent the series in Brawl) is a fair one. But if the characters in Melee are any indication, Sakurai seems to favor characters from the more recent games in the series (all the characters sport appearances from OoT and, the case of Young Link, a mixture of OoT and MM). So if this trend continues, Zelda characters in Brawl will most likely be selected from the most important Zelda games at present - meaning the system seller Twilight Princess and the upcoming WW sequel Phantom Hourglass. Of the characters in those two games, you must admit that Midna is close to the top of the list.

 

[dynamic_entry]

since this is a general 'whats in, whats out' zelda discussion, i was wondering what every1 thought about any new stages or items from the zelda series making it in. there are some pretty classic items that could make it, for instance the ball and chain, or the deku leaf, 2 of my presonal favourites.

termina great bay probably wont make the cut IMO, which opens the door for some other cool areas from the zelda francise, like one of the islands from WW (perhaps the deku one, i dunno) or somewhere funky from TP like in the twilight realm. i didnt particularly like that dungeon in the game, but the surreal nature of that place was way cool.

character wise i personally would be ecstatic if it was only link, zelda and ganondorf in brawl (thats not to say i dont want others, i just dont want to be optimistic until they're confrimed). and while i loved midna in TP, unfortunately im not a fan of her making it into brawl. i'd prefer to see cateye link, especially because his confirmation would make stage and item inclusions from WW a lot more likely.

 

[Numa Dude]

*Sigh* Guess Numa lacks imagination,

I have more imagination than you do and what does that even have anything to do with Midna's chances?

and obviosuly deniying the truth

No, I'm whats called unbiased.

Minda for brawl!!1!!11one

Don't be disappointed when she doesn't make it.

Congrats on beating TP. Now that you've completed the game, what is your opinion of it? Do you feel it lives up to the Zelda name?

I will list the Pros and cons below.

Pros.

1. EPIC boss battles against awesome enemies like Stallord and the dragon in the sky city
2. Tight controls
3. Compelling story
4. Humorous moments
5. beautiful graphics
6. Leaves well placed hints to connect it to MM
7. SUMO WRESTLING!
8. Old Zelda tools with new uses for them (MAGNETIC ROCK!)
9. Lots of hot chicks like the great fairy and Zelda
10. Aiming and horse battles is fun and easy to control

Cons.

1. Link never got layed
2. Midna didn't help much in dungeons
3. Imp Midna's smiles scared me
4. Final fight with Ganondorf was too much like the one at the end of WW
5. Some Wolf moments sucked hard
6. WTF NO DEKU!?
7. They completely pissed on Zant
8. Money system
9. No happy mask salesman
10. Malo looked like a baby alien

I'll give this game a 9.5 out of ten because it was great but it could have been just a little better.

I'm at least glad that you've come to appreciate what a great character Midna is, even if you don't see her as Brawl potential. However, if you're up to it, I'm going to try and change your mind!

You may, but know that many have tried and they have all failed up to this point.

I haven't followed your ongoing debate with Stryks very closely, but from what I've gathered, the argument against Midna boils down to two points:

1) Midna isn't worthy of appearing in Smash Bros because she has only appeared in a single game - making her not as important to the series overall as reaccuring characters like Vaati and Skull Kid.

2) Sheik's inclusion in Melee after one game appearance is not a fair comparison since she is not a pure character addition, but one of Zelda's abilities.

Here are my counterarguments:

1) While it's technically true that Vaati has played a major role in three Zelda's while Midna, it seems to me that not all Zelda's are created equal. Think about it: did any of Vaati's games (FS, FSA and MC) generate the kind of excitment or critical acclaim that Twilight Princess did? Likewise, Skull Kid was the main villian in MM and a minor character in OoT and TP - but even if you add up all his contributions to the series, does it realy compare to Midna's role as THE main character in what is arguably the most high profile Zelda ever?

2) In my view, the fact that Sheik was included in Melee in the wake of OoT's popularity in spite of the fact that she was just Zelda's diguise is actually benefitial to Midna's chances of being in Brawl. If Zelda's alter ego was deamed worthy of a completly original moveset after appearing in a single game, isn't a major character like Midna worthy of the same treatment? Sheik may be just an ability, but she was just as time consuming to program into the game than any other character.

My counter arguments to your counter arguments are below.

1. I completely and utterly disagree. I believe that Nintendo treats all of their games equally no matter how much they sell or how matter how much they are hyped or if they where handheld or console.

2. Shiek and Midna are in two completely different situations. Shiek was added because they had nothing to go on for Zelda's moveset except for the change so they made them transform like that to give her a move but since Shiek had an original moveset they had to count her as a whole character, that is not the same as Midna. If Midna is added then they would be giving too much attention to TP which I believe they won't do because I believe all games are treated as equal no matter how recent or hyped or what they where on. Being the game where the character model comes from is enough in my eyes.

Personally, I think your argument that there are characters with greater importance to the series as a whole (and therefore more deserving to represent the series in Brawl) is a fair one. But if the characters in Melee are any indication, Sakurai seems to favor characters from the more recent games in the series (all the characters sport appearances from OoT and, the case of Young Link, a mixture of OoT and MM). So if this trend continues, Zelda characters in Brawl will most likely be selected from the most important Zelda games at present - meaning the system seller Twilight Princess and the upcoming WW sequel Phantom Hourglass. Of the characters in those two games, you must admit that Midna is close to the top of the list.

They where just character models. They repped the whole series not just the game the character model came from.

 

[Stryks]

Theirs no proof sheik was added cause "They had nothing to go on for Zeldas moveset", please was their ANYTHING to go on for falcons and Foxs moveset? they added sheik to make her more original, not because they lack ideas for moves for zelda, Hell sheik was revealed BEFORE zelda, thus if anything, sheik was considered to be in melee more than zelda...

Besides, sheik was added to give represent OoT, she only had one appearance and didnt even had a big role in OoT, even if she is zelda, sheik counts as a diferent character, look at the sheiks trophy in melee, Where did she 1st apepared? OoT, and zelda? The 1st LoZ game...

Thus sheik is concidered a diferent character, thus having one apeparance, even if shes an alter ego of zelda, same can be said about Tetra, only appeared in WW, yet shes zelda...

Anyway, having one sole apeparance doesnt lower her chances, and when having the BIGGEST role in (some consider) the greatest zelda game, her odds in getting in are high...

 

[drewdizzal]

1. I completely and utterly disagree. I believe that Nintendo treats all of their games equally no matter how much they sell or how matter how much they are hyped or if they where handheld or console.

Well, you have to admit there was ALOT of hype and excitment generated for TP. I mean it was the next generation for the Zelda series and one of the most anticipated Zelda games since OoT, so they had to have payed SPECIAL attention to TP. Not saying the handhelds are just craped on, look at phantom hourglass. Im just saying that i think they place the Zelda games on the home consoles on a different level then the handhelds. With that being said, I think characters from TP OR the handhelds have a somewhat equal chance of getting in, maybe TP having a little advantage cause of how well known it is. And, ofcourse, having midna riding wolf link in SSBB would freaking rule X10000000000. Anyways..........TP GANONDORF FOR BRAWL!!!!!!!

 

[Numa Dude]

Theirs no proof sheik was added cause "They had nothing to go on for Zeldas moveset", please was their ANYTHING to go on for falcons and Foxs moveset? they added sheik to make her more original, not because they lack ideas for moves for zelda, Hell sheik was revealed BEFORE zelda, thus if anything, sheik was considered to be in melee more than zelda...

Once again Shiek and Zelda are the same person so if Shiek was considered first it was still Zelda, please stop acting like they are different people because they aren't. Oh and another thing Fox and Falcons movesets where made up but they made sense and fit the character and making a moveset that fit Zelda's character would have been hard because we never saw much of her character. OoT was the first time she had really done something amazing so of course they looked at Shiek and used her for her moveset.

Besides, sheik was added to give represent OoT, she only had one appearance and didnt even had a big role in OoT, even if she is zelda, sheik counts as a diferent character, look at the sheiks trophy in melee, Where did she 1st apepared? OoT, and zelda? The 1st LoZ game...

They are one character in a different form you ******. OoT was the first time Zelda appeared as Shiek so Sheik's first appearance was OoT but that still doesn't change the fact that they are the same person so please just drop this whole point because no matter how you word it they are still the same person and the situation with Sheik is different than the one with Midna.

Thus sheik is concidered a diferent character, thus having one apeparance, even if shes an alter ego of zelda, same can be said about Tetra, only appeared in WW, yet shes zelda...

They are the same character in a different form which makes them two different characters for the overall characters in the game but it doesn't take up reps for that franchise so please just freaking drop this already.

Anyway, having one sole apeparance doesnt lower her chances, and when having the BIGGEST role in (some consider) the greatest zelda game, her odds in getting in are high...

Her odds of getting in are 1% at best AND I'm being VERY generous.

 

[Stryks]

Numa seriously every guy here would tell u ur deinying the truth...

Ok yes sheik is zelda, I know that prefectly, ud think fight agains sheik/zelda I wpould have learn that by now, BUT sheik has only appeared once b4 melee was released, yes shes the same as zelda, but SHEIK never appeared in LoZ, LoZ2, LoZ ALTTP, and all the game boy games, SHEIK only appeared in ONE game b4 melee, and even if shes just a transformation, SHES STILL A CHARACTER, transformation or not...

So ur saying if they add Bowser jr in the game, shadow mario (even without being physically in) he would be in brawl? Yes sheik is zelda, but the character sheik, the alter ego of zelda only appeared once b4 melee, and even if shes a transformation shes a character, just like midna would be, even though she aint a transformation, thus one appearance = doesnt lower the chances in being in brawl...

Other proof: Ganondorf, ganonDORF only had once appearance b4 melee, but ganon has more than one, but the character in melee is ganondorf, thus if u check his trophy in melee, it says that he appeared for the 1st time in OoT, and so far I havent seen Ganon (the giant pig monster) NO WHERE in melee...

Midna is more recognizable, is more popular, newer, and has the biggest role in TP, the newest zelda game, she has by far the best chance being in brawl after ganondorf and zelda...

 

[Fawriel]

Once again Shiek and Zelda are the same person so if Shiek was considered first it was still Zelda, please stop acting like they are different people because they aren't. Oh and another thing Fox and Falcons movesets where made up but they made sense and fit the character and making a moveset that fit Zelda's character would have been hard because we never saw much of her character. OoT was the first time she had really done something amazing so of course they looked at Shiek and used her for her moveset.

..I don't understand this part. In how far do Fox' and Falco's make that much sense? The only thing they were ever seen doing was fly Arwings and run, pretty much.
OoT Zelda opened doors and had light beams and funky stuff like that. Sheik was very unnecessary, he/she/it/potato was pretty much just a failed experiment at being original.
Zelda's own moveset made a lot more sense. Sheik, unlike Zelda, was pretty much just shown playing a harp and going poof. The poof is in. The rest is made-up. Zelda's moves are actually based on stuff for the most part...

And technically they are the same person, but Sheik still took as much time to create as other characters ( minus a down-b move, I guess ). I see where you're coming from, but Sheik is there, and she DOES count as a separate character, just like Mario and Doctor Mario do.

 

[Numa Dude]

Numa seriously every guy here would tell u ur deinying the truth...

You sir are the one that is denying the truth. I have defeated every Midna for brawl statement you have said so far with the exception of she's female and yet you still keep on.

Ok yes sheik is zelda, I know that prefectly, ud think fight agains sheik/zelda I wpould have learn that by now, BUT sheik has only appeared once b4 melee was released, yes shes the same as zelda, but SHEIK never appeared in LoZ, LoZ2, LoZ ALTTP, and all the game boy games, SHEIK only appeared in ONE game b4 melee, and even if shes just a transformation, SHES STILL A CHARACTER, transformation or not...

Please just stop this now, I've beaten this argument so many times already that it's burned into my skull. SHEIK DIDN'T COUNT AS A ZELDA REP FOR THE LAST ****ING TIME! She counted as a whole new character because she had an original moveset but the fact they are the same person means that they both counted as only one Zelda rep.

So ur saying if they add Bowser jr in the game, shadow mario (even without being physically in) he would be in brawl? Yes sheik is zelda, but the character sheik, the alter ego of zelda only appeared once b4 melee, and even if shes a transformation shes a character, just like midna would be, even though she aint a transformation, thus one appearance = doesnt lower the chances in being in brawl...

Technically yes he would be since they are both one and the same person. Sheik and Zelda are the same character in a different form so just stop this whole Sheik argument because your just showing your own ignorance.

Other proof: Ganondorf, ganonDORF only had once appearance b4 melee, but ganon has more than one, but the character in melee is ganondorf, thus if u check his trophy in melee, it says that he appeared for the 1st time in OoT, and so far I havent seen Ganon (the giant pig monster) NO WHERE in melee...

They are still the same entity just in a different form. What is so god **** hard to understand about that?

Midna is more recognizable, is more popular, newer, and has the biggest role in TP, the newest zelda game, she has by far the best chance being in brawl after ganondorf and zelda...

Midna has no chance to be in brawl and you haven't beaten any of my arguments yet.

 

[Stryks]

Dude believe me u have NOT beaten any arguements, and with what u just said u have prove it:

So if bowser jr is in, shadow mario, even without being physically, hes in brawl? ur answer: YES
Alright so Im guessing were gettin raccoon mario, doc mario, vacumm luigi, skeletal bowser, assault look fox, assault look falco, Pig form ganon, tetra, wolf link, cook kirby, fire kirby, ball kirby, sword kirby, strikers look mario, strikers look bowser, strikers look waluigi, plumber look wario, light suit samus, dark suit samus, fusion suit samus, and just to name a few in brawl? even though there not physically there obcourse...

Please, that makes 0 sense, yes I know there the same person, but theyre consider (at least in SMASH BROS.) 2 diferent character swapped bia trasnformation...

Zelda has more than one appearance, and sheik only had one b4 melee, dont believe me? check the sheik trophy, HOW CAN U BEAT SOMETHING THATS IN THE ACTUAL SMASH GAME?

Sheik has one appearance b4 melee, thus not lowering the chances of midna, sylux, weavel, mach rider, and all the one-appearance characters...

 

[Numa Dude]

Dude believe me u have NOT beaten any arguements, and with what u just said u have prove it:

I've beaten every argument you have presented and you know it, your just trying to save face.

So if bowser jr is in, shadow mario, even without being physically, hes in brawl? ur answer: YES
Alright so Im guessing were gettin raccoon mario, doc mario, vacumm luigi, skeletal bowser, assault look fox, assault look falco, Pig form ganon, tetra, wolf link, cook kirby, fire kirby, ball kirby, sword kirby, strikers look mario, strikers look bowser, strikers look waluigi, plumber look wario, light suit samus, dark suit samus, fusion suit samus, and just to name a few in brawl? even though there not physically there obcourse...

Now your just being plain stupid. Even though a character has different looks in their different games that doesn't mean that their different looks are separate characters.

Please, that makes 0 sense, yes I know there the same person, but theyre consider (at least in SMASH BROS.) 2 diferent character swapped bia trasnformation...

Which is why they count as two separate characters for the overall roster but they don't count as Zelda reps. I have been saying this since the beginning of this debate yet you continue to ignore it.

Zelda has more than one appearance, and sheik only had one b4 melee, dont believe me? check the sheik trophy, HOW CAN U BEAT SOMETHING THATS IN THE ACTUAL SMASH GAME?

Why do you continue to repeat yourself? I have beaten this entire argument 100 times over and you still continue to repeat the same points over and over again. They are the same person so even though Shiek only made one appearance she is still the same person as Zelda.

Sheik has one appearance b4 melee, thus not lowering the chances of midna, sylux, weavel, mach rider, and all the one-appearance characters...

I have completely and utterly destroyed every point for Midna's inclusion and you STILL say she has a good chance for brawl for the same points that you have failed to successfully counter so please just stop this before you embarrass yourself further. While I'm at it Sylux and Weavel have no chance of being in brawl because Metroid is only getting three reps at most and Ridley and Dark Samus will take the two spots no taken by Samus/Zamus. Mach rider though does have a chance because he is retro.

 

[Vali]

Stryks even for you you're being ********. Sheik didn't appear in a game before OOT because obviously it was never part of the storyline for her to have to go into hiding and transform herself. As Sheik is an alter-ego-disguise for her to be included in Brawl he'd actually have to be programmed in, and Zelda's inclusion doesn't mean Sheik is included too. Including Bowser Jr. in Brawl wouldn't include Shadow Mario because there's nothing about Shadow Mario included in it, unless as a transformation by which then he'd obviously be in. If Sheik had been a stand-alone character his inclusion in Brawl would've been incredibly doubtful and probably not there at all, which means that it's still a valid argument against 1 shot appearances. The fact that Zelda will sport the TP look which has no revelance to Sheik is just the nail in the coffin.

Actually try reading his posts instead of posting some random garbage about Raccoon Mario. Oh and some of the trophies are wrong, but your point is still utterly utterly stupid.

 

[Stryks]

Numa is saying that If bowser Jr is added, shadow mario is techniaclly in too, even though not physically, by that logic, all the characters I mention would be in too, even though not physically, because there alt. forms of the character, like Bowser jr is to shadow mario, kirby is to ball kirby, fire kirby and so on... and U said it urself, adding bowser jr wouldnt include shadow mario, unless hes physically there, yet hes saying otherwise...

Im saying that sheik had only one appearance b4 melee, I am correct on that part, unless I missed a LoZ return of sheik game, and u Vali said it urself, she doesnt have any appearances b4 OoT, thus how many total appearances does sheik have b4 melee: ONE
How many apeparances does Midna have b4 brawl is released: ONE

Yet Numa is saying shiek was added cause they lack moves for zelda, thus they included her to fit the bill in one of her B moves, but since its a transformation they had to make a new moveset for sheik, I highly doubt sheik was added cause they couldnt think of a move for Zelda, but because they WANTED to add her...

Now hes saying Midna shouldnt be added because, and I quote:

If Midna is added then they would be giving too much attention to TP which I believe they won't do because I believe all games are treated as equal no matter how recent or hyped or what they where on.

That didnt stop Sheik from being in melee, they gave ALL the attention to OoT in melee, when they could have added characters from the GBC games, no they just added home console characters, and Including 2 characters [sheik and ganonDORF], who had only one apeparances, even though their alter egos have more than one...

And I doubt they were wrong in sheiks 1st apeparance in her trophy, cause ganondorf, who in human form no the pig one, had only one appearance b4 melee says that he 1st appeared for the 1st time in OoT, so I doubt sakurai got 2 characters wrong...

Simply put: When did the ninja sheika 1st apepared? OoT
When did the HUMAN form of ganon 1st appeared? OoT thus both had only one appearance b4 melee...

 

[Deleted member]

That didnt stop Sheik from being in melee, they gave ALL the attention to OoT in melee, when they could have added characters from the GBC games, no they just added home console characters, and Including 2 characters [sheik and ganonDORF], who had only one apeparances, even though their alter egos have more than one...

Yes they did that. And that makes me mad.

Mine still isn't up.

And I have exams for weeks. Make my day, eh?

(I really should of made that Maple topic.)

 

[Wiseguy]

I will list the Pros and cons below.

Pros.

1. EPIC boss battles against awesome enemies like Stallord and the dragon in the sky city
2. Tight controls
3. Compelling story
4. Humorous moments
5. beautiful graphics
6. Leaves well placed hints to connect it to MM
7. SUMO WRESTLING!
8. Old Zelda tools with new uses for them (MAGNETIC ROCK!)
9. Lots of hot chicks like the great fairy and Zelda
10. Aiming and horse battles is fun and easy to control

Cons.

1. Link never got layed
2. Midna didn't help much in dungeons
3. Imp Midna's smiles scared me
4. Final fight with Ganondorf was too much like the one at the end of WW
5. Some Wolf moments sucked hard
6. WTF NO DEKU!?
7. They completely pissed on Zant
8. Money system
9. No happy mask salesman
10. Malo looked like a baby alien

I'll give this game a 9.5 out of ten because it was great but it could have been just a little better.

I never really thought about it, but Malo really does resemble an alien. Think there's some connection to mysterious cow nappers from Majora's Mask?

Anyway, those are some clever observations. I'm glad your fierce battles with Stryks and others didn't taint the game for you.

You may, but know that many have tried and they have all failed up to this point.

Where all others have failed, I will suceed!

My counter arguments to your counter arguments are below.

1. I completely and utterly disagree. I believe that Nintendo treats all of their games equally no matter how much they sell or how matter how much they are hyped or if they where handheld or console.

2. Shiek and Midna are in two completely different situations. Shiek was added because they had nothing to go on for Zelda's moveset except for the change so they made them transform like that to give her a move but since Shiek had an original moveset they had to count her as a whole character, that is not the same as Midna. If Midna is added then they would be giving too much attention to TP which I believe they won't do because I believe all games are treated as equal no matter how recent or hyped or what they where on. Being the game where the character model comes from is enough in my eyes.

1. Is that what Nintendo actually does, or just what you think they should do? In Melee, all the Zelda characters, maps and items came from OoT and MM. Heck, the only Zelda trophy I can think of was that girl from Link's Awakening. My point is that the Smash team seems to have a bias in favor of the newer, higher profile Zeldas over the older games in the series. This is why Old Link made it into SSB64 over young Link - inspite of the fact that his older incarnation only appeared in two games (OoT and Zelda II). So, while it may not be the best way to represent the series as a whole, if current trends continue we will see a greater emphasis on TP characters - which makes Midna a likely candidate.

2. So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that after designing an entire moveset for Zelda (using attacks like Din's Fire and original abilities) they were forced to include another entire moveset for Sheik because they couldn't think of another B move to give her? I'm sorry, but that sounds a bit farfetched.

The Smash team could have easily imagined another unique attack for Zelda's Down-B. A more likely scenario, it seems to me, is that the Smash team made a conscious decision to spend their time designing a unique moveset for Sheik, because they felt that OoT's popularity justified another playable character. They could have chosen to include Skull Kid, since he had appeared in two games compared to Sheik's one (and I soncerely wish they had) or they could have included any number of characters from the older games - perhaps Aginham. But they didn't.

One could argue that putting Midna in Brawl would give too much reprentation to TP - which some might agree with. But given Melee's over-representation of OoT and MM and the emmense importance of Twilight Princess to Nintendo (even after this holiday season, it will still be one of the best reasons to own a Wii) I think there is strong possibilty that we will see TP characters dominate the Zelda roster. Hopefully, WW Link will also be included to balance it out a bit.

They where just character models. They repped the whole series not just the game the character model came from.

With the exception of Sheik (doesn't count, yadda yadda, I know) you are correct. But the fact that they went with the Deku Sheild weilding Young Link from OoT/MM over the pink haired ALttP version suggests a partiallity towards the newer games over the old ones - which bodes well for Midna.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd like to see Wolf Link and Midna in there somewhere. Maybe in the same way as Samus transforms to ZSS. I dunno.

Though I do like Midna (and not like that ) it would look a little weird to see her human form fight. That should be kept to Zelda.

That's my two cents.

 

[Stryks]

I personally prefer Midna by herself, having wolf link will make many smashers angry, just like the Mario and doc. mario thing, since TP Link is in there, and so is wolf link (U DI mean sepearate characters rite? ), besides if they can make a moveset for falcon and fox, I bet they can make one for midna, seeing how shes uses shadow magic and all XD

 

[Numa Dude]

Numa is saying that If bowser Jr is added, shadow mario is techniaclly in too, even though not physically, by that logic, all the characters I mention would be in too, even though not physically, because there alt. forms of the character, like Bowser jr is to shadow mario, kirby is to ball kirby, fire kirby and so on... and U said it urself, adding bowser jr wouldnt include shadow mario, unless hes physically there, yet hes saying otherwise...

If a character is added then that character is added. It doesn't matter if they include their alternate forms or alternate costumes as well it's still just one character and since the alternate forms and costumes are also that character than technically they are also added.

Im saying that sheik had only one appearance b4 melee, I am correct on that part, unless I missed a LoZ return of sheik game, and u Vali said it urself, she doesnt have any appearances b4 OoT, thus how many total appearances does sheik have b4 melee: ONE
How many apeparances does Midna have b4 brawl is released: ONE

Shiek is Zelda's alter ego and therefore is Zelda meaning she is in a different situation than Midna is in now so please stop this useless arguing now before you embarrass yourself even more.

Yet Numa is saying shiek was added cause they lack moves for zelda, thus they included her to fit the bill in one of her B moves, but since its a transformation they had to make a new moveset for sheik, I highly doubt sheik was added cause they couldnt think of a move for Zelda, but because they WANTED to add her...

Even if they did want to add her like you say she is still Zelda in disguise so your argument fails.

Now hes saying Midna shouldnt be added because, and I quote:

Originally Posted by Numa dude
If Midna is added then they would be giving too much attention to TP which I believe they won't do because I believe all games are treated as equal no matter how recent or hyped or what they where on.

That didnt stop Sheik from being in melee, they gave ALL the attention to OoT in melee, when they could have added characters from the GBC games, no they just added home console characters, and Including 2 characters [sheik and ganonDORF], who had only one apeparances, even though their alter egos have more than one...

They where just the character models so stop acting like they rep only that game because their character model is from that game. Stop using Ganondorf and Shiek as an example because I've owned you enough on why they don't count.

And I doubt they were wrong in sheiks 1st apeparance in her trophy, cause ganondorf, who in human form no the pig one, had only one appearance b4 melee says that he 1st appeared for the 1st time in OoT, so I doubt sakurai got 2 characters wrong...

Simply put: When did the ninja sheika 1st apepared? OoT
When did the HUMAN form of ganon 1st appeared? OoT thus both had only one appearance b4 melee...

Once again are the same entity as Zelda and Ganon so stop using themm as examples.

I never really thought about it, but Malo really does resemble an alien. Think there's some connection to mysterious cow nappers from Majora's Mask?

Anyway, those are some clever observations. I'm glad your fierce battles with Stryks and others didn't taint the game for you.

I'm surprised no one has commented on my more perverted pros and cons.

Where all others have failed, I will suceed!

Maybe but I doubt it.

1. Is that what Nintendo actually does, or just what you think they should do? In Melee, all the Zelda characters, maps and items came from OoT and MM. Heck, the only Zelda trophy I can think of was that girl from Link's Awakening. My point is that the Smash team seems to have a bias in favor of the newer, higher profile Zeldas over the older games in the series. This is why Old Link made it into SSB64 over young Link - inspite of the fact that his older incarnation only appeared in two games (OoT and Zelda II). So, while it may not be the best way to represent the series as a whole, if current trends continue we will see a greater emphasis on TP characters - which makes Midna a likely candidate.

The newer games in the franchise get the character models stages items and all of that other crap you mentioned only because they are new and more recognizable. They still pay attention to the older games even if it doesn't seem like it. That's why I think that the reps we will get will be characters that rep the franchise as a whole best. About old link being in 64 once again it's the same character just older.

2. So, if I understand you correctly, you're saying that after designing an entire moveset for Zelda (using attacks like Din's Fire and original abilities) they were forced to include another entire moveset for Sheik because they couldn't think of another B move to give her? I'm sorry, but that sounds a bit farfetched.

The Smash team could have easily imagined another unique attack for Zelda's Down-B. A more likely scenario, it seems to me, is that the Smash team made a conscious decision to spend their time designing a unique moveset for Sheik, because they felt that OoT's popularity justified another playable character. They could have chosen to include Skull Kid, since he had appeared in two games compared to Sheik's one (and I soncerely wish they had) or they could have included any number of characters from the older games - perhaps Aginham. But they didn't.

No what I'm saying is that they couldn't think of many moves for Zelda and then they remembered Shiek and the idea of a character that transforms to fit the situation was born. That seems more possible don't you think?

One could argue that putting Midna in Brawl would give too much reprentation to TP - which some might agree with. But given Melee's over-representation of OoT and MM and the emmense importance of Twilight Princess to Nintendo (even after this holiday season, it will still be one of the best reasons to own a Wii) I think there is strong possibilty that we will see TP characters dominate the Zelda roster. Hopefully, WW Link will also be included to balance it out a bit.

I once again disagree, just because they had a character model doesn't mean they only rep the game the model is from. When a character is chosen for smash of course they will go with that characters most recent look(if they have one) but that doesn't mean all of the other games don't count.

With the exception of Sheik (doesn't count, yadda yadda, I know) you are correct. But the fact that they went with the Deku Sheild weilding Young Link from OoT/MM over the pink haired ALttP version suggests a partiallity towards the newer games over the old ones - which bodes well for Midna.

Recent looks is what Smash characters will get. The only exceptions being if that particular character has no new look or is most important and popular in an older form. An example of the second one would be Skull Kid.

 

[Meta_Owns_Ur_Dad]

Ug... these argument posts are starting to get so ugly and giant i can't force myself to read through the whole post.

Stop, just stop...

 

[Numa Dude]

Yet another intelligent not spam post by Meta_owns_ur_dad.

 

[Stryks]

If a character is added then that character is added. It doesn't matter if they include their alternate forms or alternate costumes as well it's still just one character and since the alternate forms and costumes are also that character than technically they are also added.

But dude think outside the box, yes if (e.x.) bowser jr. is added, since being the same person, shadow mario would be added in a certain way, being the same person as bowser jr. BUT were talking about playable characters here, if bowser jr is added, but if shadow mario aint playable/physically/visually there then hes not added as a character, its the same in every game, fighting game or not:

Sheik never appeared in LoZ, LoZ2, LoZ ALTTP, neither in the GBC games, neither playable/ physically/ Visually, then shes not there, even if shes zeldas alter ego, understand, zelda aint the same character in every game, zelda reincarnates or something in almost every zelda games, so u cant say if we add for say TP zelda in brawl (which will surely happen) sheik and tetra are automatically in brawl, thus by ur logic sheik will surely return, which many of us know it wont happen, cause TP zelda takes place HUNDREDS of years after OoT, thus why would she transform into her alter ego from hundreds of years ago?

Thus, even though shes zelda, sheik never appeared physically/visually until OoT, thus having one appearance b4 being added in melee, and her trophy proves it...

Shiek is Zelda's alter ego and therefore is Zelda meaning she is in a different situation than Midna is in now so please stop this useless arguing now before you embarrass yourself even more.

So far I havent embarresed myself, and yes sheik is a transformation, but in the end shes a CHARACTER IN SSBM, midna would be a character in ssbb, just because shes a transformation doesnt mean I can count her as a character, she is part of the 26 character roster in melee, and thus she has one apeparance, being transformation or not that doesnt change the facts...

Thus if midna is added, evene if shes not a transformation, shes a character, and even if she has one appearance b4 brawl, she can indeed be added...

Even if they did want to add her like you say she is still Zelda in disguise so your argument fails.

But shes still a character, and not just some move, everyone here can tell u that, shes zelda in disguise, but shes also her own character, u dont c her using zeldas move do u? no, she has her OWN moveset, making her a totally diferent character that can be used bia transformation... Hardly see how it fails...

They where just the character models so stop acting like they rep only that game because their character model is from that game. Stop using Ganondorf and Shiek as an example because I've owned you enough on why they don't count.

Their more than just models, they represented the entire zelda series, but only OoT character were added, u c Y.;ink with the kokiri sword and the deku shield, weapons from the OoT game, link and Young have the hookshot, a weapon 1st used in OoT, zeldas entire B moves come from OoT, including sheik, cant say much about ganondorf, since well hes a clone and all...

Brawl is no diferent, u c link doing the spin attack in the 2nd trailer, yet u dont c the gold ring he does in melee, why? because he doesnt use magic in TP, his master sword glows because it does in TP, point is the guys in melee represent the ENTIRE zelda series, but only OoT characters, attacks and models were added...

Once again are the same entity as Zelda and Ganon so stop using themm as examples.

Already gave u the reason of sheik, and its the same with ganondorf, NOTE u haven beaten any arguement, ur just saying there the same person, thus i cant compare midna and sheik, well I can since sheik is a character in melee, and midna would be a character in brawl, thus I can compare

Also numa, ur last post was not really necesary, and wasnt more "intelligent" than metas...

 

[Deleted member]

You bet.

We're all nerds really. We just get our manly testosterone by arguing online with machine guns and sixty tons of napalm .

Rep will go to older characters and handhelds, mark my words.

 

[Sundown]

Zelda will for sure be in Brawl, thats all i know, and all i care bout

 

[Numa Dude]

But dude think outside the box, yes if (e.x.) bowser jr. is added, since being the same person, shadow mario would be added in a certain way, being the same person as bowser jr. BUT were talking about playable characters here, if bowser jr is added, but if shadow mario aint playable/physically/visually there then hes not added as a character, its the same in every game, fighting game or not:

Now when you say it like that your actually right.

Sheik never appeared in LoZ, LoZ2, LoZ ALTTP, neither in the GBC games, neither playable/ physically/ Visually, then shes not there, even if shes zeldas alter ego, understand, zelda aint the same character in every game, zelda reincarnates or something in almost every zelda games, so u cant say if we add for say TP zelda in brawl (which will surely happen) sheik and tetra are automatically in brawl, thus by ur logic sheik will surely return, which many of us know it wont happen, cause TP zelda takes place HUNDREDS of years after OoT, thus why would she transform into her alter ego from hundreds of years ago?

Thus, even though shes zelda, sheik never appeared physically/visually until OoT, thus having one appearance b4 being added in melee, and her trophy proves it...

She is still Zelda though. You word it different every time but it still boils down to the fact that Zelda and Shiek are one and the same person.

So far I havent embarresed myself, and yes sheik is a transformation, but in the end shes a CHARACTER IN SSBM, midna would be a character in ssbb, just because shes a transformation doesnt mean I can count her as a character, she is part of the 26 character roster in melee, and thus she has one apeparance, being transformation or not that doesnt change the facts...

I've admitted that Shiek is a character several times in my posts. What I'm trying to get you to understand is that since they are the same person Zelda and Shiek count as only one rep for that franchise.

Thus if midna is added, evene if shes not a transformation, shes a character, and even if she has one appearance b4 brawl, she can indeed be added...

If Midna is added then she would take up a rep spot which could easily be taken by a more important Zelda character.

But shes still a character, and not just some move, everyone here can tell u that, shes zelda in disguise, but shes also her own character, u dont c her using zeldas move do u? no, she has her OWN moveset, making her a totally diferent character that can be used bia transformation... Hardly see how it fails...

I've admitted that Shiek is a character several times in my posts. What I'm trying to get you to understand is that since they are the same person Zelda and Shiek count as only one rep for that franchise.

Their more than just models, they represented the entire zelda series, but only OoT character were added, u c Y.;ink with the kokiri sword and the deku shield, weapons from the OoT game, link and Young have the hookshot, a weapon 1st used in OoT, zeldas entire B moves come from OoT, including sheik, cant say much about ganondorf, since well hes a clone and all...

Because it was the most recent game is the only reason it got all of the trophies moves and models.

Brawl is no diferent, u c link doing the spin attack in the 2nd trailer, yet u dont c the gold ring he does in melee, why? because he doesnt use magic in TP, his master sword glows because it does in TP, point is the guys in melee represent the ENTIRE zelda series, but only OoT characters, attacks and models were added...

Maybe he doesn't have the gold ring because the graphics changed did you ever think of that?

Already gave u the reason of sheik, and its the same with ganondorf, NOTE u haven beaten any arguement, ur just saying there the same person, thus i cant compare midna and sheik, well I can since sheik is a character in melee, and midna would be a character in brawl, thus I can compare

Midna would take up a rep spot which Shiek didn't so that is why you can't compare them.

Also numa, ur last post was not really necesary, and wasnt more "intelligent" than metas...

You calling me out about that wasn't neccesary but look you did it anyway. Also the fact that I don't spam comments that are obviously fake attempts at intelligent's makes me smarter than him.

 

[Fawriel]

You two make my head hurt. *sigh*

You have completely different views of what is a representative and what makes a character worthy of being in Brawl. Le fin. You may now get over it and stop saying that you completely owned and uber-destroyed the other or that someone's denying the truth or whatever!

 

[LostAddict]

If Midna is added then she would take up a rep spot which could easily be taken by a more important Zelda character.

WHO?!

Every character in Zelda that is not Link, Zelda or Ganondorf has usually ONE game that they star in. This is Skull Kid. Yes, he had a cameo in OoT. No, the skullkid like creature in TP is not necessarily the same Skull Kid. And I really don't believe he is, there's just no evidence other than "LOLZ SARIAS SONGGG."

Who has more influence on the series at this current moment?
Midna.

Twilight Princess right now is Wii's huge title. It is essentially the Super Mario 64 of Wii. Can you just admit that Midna has a good chance of being in SSBB. Yes, Skull Kid has a chance. But being a villian in a game, that is highly eclipsed by OoT doesn't fare very well. TP is the most popular Zelda right now, thus, popular opinion will lean towards Midna.

How do you make money?
By pleasing fans.

Out of Nintendo fans, or Zelda fans, I think it's safe to say that CURRENTLY Midna is the more popular character. Maybe a couple years down the road, possibly not. But as of right now, yes Midna is the most popular Zelda character aside from Ganny, Zelda and Link.

 

[RWB]

Who?

Vaati would be one.

 

[Vali]

Who has more influence on the series at this current moment?
Midna.

Out of Nintendo fans, or Zelda fans, I think it's safe to say that CURRENTLY Midna is the more popular character.

Midna will almost definitely not return, so your first statement is pretty much incorrect, but your second one stands true.

On the note of "Sheik = Zelda", imagine that Robin used to be Batman's alter ego. Batman's alter-ego to kick *** like a ninja. Including Batman in a comic wouldn't necessarily include Robin, unless in the comic Batman transformed into Robin. Then assume Batman got an updated new look and style, there's no reason to keep his alter-ego Robin anymore, and his inclusion in any further comics won't be including Robin at all. It's possible that they might hire some dweeb to play Robin and have him as a separate character, but it'd make no sense in the context of the story seeming that Robin is Batman's alter-ego, not sidekick. Then substitute Batman with Zelda, Robin with Sheik and comic with game.

On the subject of OOT as well, they repped OOT majorly because they were including the latest look of all the major characters. Adult Link, the new look of Link, Zelda, complete with Sheik and Ganondorf, the new human incarnation of the mischievious pig. They also added Young Link from Majora's Mask since that's still part of the Zelda series and hey what do you know MM was the latest Zelda game to feature Young Link (and it would've been impossible to say add in MM Ganondorf wouldn't it). Now just because they're sporting their most current look, doesn't mean that new characters from that franchise will get in just because they're heavily repping that game. Just because all of the characters are using their updated TP look doesn't mean that Midna will get in.

 

[Stryks]

Ah that part about robin and batman hurt my head, and it hurt more when I was replacing batman with zelda, and robin with sheik...

Well I THINK what ur triying to say is that if Zelda is in X game, and sheik doesnt appear, then he aint part of the game, but if we c Sheik in a game, we can assume that zelda is in, or something like that...

Ok so we finally came to the conclusion that [According to Numa Dude] Midna shouldnt be added cause she'll take up a rep spot...

Seriously rite now, in the present, in this current moment (said it 3 times so u can keep up with me) Midna is important to the series as of right now (a 4th time), will she still continue to be important to the series the most logical answer is no, since welll she DID brake the mirror, the only link between the world of light with the one of shadow, but since none of us can c to the future (which I know of) we can only assume Midna wont return...

Still since sakurai will mostly choose characters from the past and from current games, the since TP is Wii's (so far) biggest title, I think the chances of the character with the biggest role in that game would have a high chance being in brawl, who IS that character? Sorry Numa dude it aint skull kid or HMS, its MIDNA; the guide character who actually fights, has the biggest role in the latest zelda game, and the sub title of the game is based on her status, the twilight princess, fact of the matter is she wil ltake a rep spot and u cant say otherwise, EVERY character will take a rep spot, except the transformations, and Im betin will get a max of 2 (zamus and shadow mario maybe), and the ONLY character I can find to have a bigger role in the zelda series is tingle...

But since he lacked a role in the latest zelda game, maybe they wont add him, and If anyone says that he'll surely return for X reason, I ask u: Cant u say the same about Midna??

 

[DarkKnight077]

Ganondrof: In.

TP Zelda: In

Young Link: Maybe out.

Shiek: Out, TP has no Shiek at all, OoT is too old of a model to follow now.

Imp Minda: Maybe in.

Vatti: In, second Villain of Zelda. Important to the series was the puppet of Ganondorf in Minish Cap.

Zant: Maybe in, main villian of TP. However didn't have any real impact.

Real form Minda: Outttt, five seconds of showing only not enough.

 

[dynamic_entry]

Ganondrof: In.

TP Zelda: In

Young Link: Maybe out.

Shiek: Out, TP has no Shiek at all, OoT is too old of a model to follow now.

Imp Minda: Maybe in.

Vatti: In, second Villain of Zelda. Important to the series was the puppet of Ganondorf in Minish Cap.

Zant: Maybe in, main villian of TP. However didn't have any real impact.

Real form Minda: Outttt, five seconds of showing only not enough.

vaati was ganon's puppet in 4 swords adventures. in the minish cap he was the main villian.

anyway, thanks to that **** argument no one is talking about items (ball and chain and deku leaf ftw) or stages (twilight realm rooxxxxxxxx!) cmon ppl!

 

[Sunamaru]

Mabe a item can be a bomb arrow combo that anyone can pick up.

 

[DarkKnight077]

*Has never played Four Swords Adventures and hasn't beaten Minish Cap yet.*

 

[dynamic_entry]

Mabe a item can be a bomb arrow combo that anyone can pick up.

but there are so much more interesting items that could make it in! while i dont disagree that the bomb arrows are hella cool, like the spinner! boy that was a silly item, but it could have some fun mechanics in a game like brawl. the deku leaf could be a ranged wep, aswell as having umbrella-esque floaty mechanics. cmon ppls

@ dark knight 077
hope i didnt ruin anything for you then.

 

[Stryks]

Nah Im bettin if WW link is in, his upb would definately be the deku leaf; on the air u flaot like peach, and on the ground u sent a burst of air forward, but if WW link aint in then yeah it could be an item...

I was thinking maybe if link where to use the bombs, and if [when u have the bomb in hand] u press b to take out the arrow, the arrows will transform into bomb arrows, thus when u shoot, u lose the bomb u had in ur hand...

 

[dynamic_entry]

@ stryks
thats a pretty cool idea about bomb arrows. and it would lend link some much needed dmg + knockback to his bow. and i spose you're right about the deku leaf and WW link which is a shame cos its a cool item and u gotta share the love.

does anyone hav an opinion about the best possible stage from the WW game? i thought maybe if they didnt mind messing with the geography they could have the fire and ice islands as one stage. or maybe the island with the dragon or the deku tree (i forget all their names).

 

[Chief Mendez]

does anyone hav an opinion about the best possible stage from the WW game? i thought maybe if they didnt mind messing with the geography they could have the fire and ice islands as one stage. or maybe the island with the dragon or the deku tree (i forget all their names).

The best stage from Windwaker is easily, easily...Hyrule. The absolute best moments of the game took place down there, beneathe the water. The stage might start out in grayscale, with Moblins and Darknuts as platforms, then shift into color, at which point the monsters become obstacles that hurt players. Then (this is a stretch), the King'd come out and freeze everything again.

Other options include: Tingle Island, complete with the golden Tingle statues (their "sticky sap" would mess with traction) and bomb throwing Ankle/Knuckle/David Jr. (A good choice, since we all know Tingle'll be playable)

Dragon Roost Isle, with Valoo sometimes spewing fire on the playing field. Maybe some Kargorocs could swoop in at you...

Tower of the Gods, with no stage hazards. Just a really, really TALL level (as Hyrule Temple is wide).

And Stryks' bomb arrow idea is the 'shiz.

 

[BlublacMH]

Link, Zelda, & Ganondorf arent going anywhere. Link's already confirmed, Zelda might come back w/o Shiek and her rapier from TP, & Ganondorf will be redone to have a TP/WW/maybe even OoT moveset

Y. Link might get redone as Cel-shaded Link

Vaati & Midna (More than likely Imp form) are the most likely chars., Vaati's the second most recurring Zelda villian, and Midna's insanely popular and from a recent and great game

For stages I would enjoy a huge (wide) level from Hyrule Field maybe w/ the horseback archers riding around shooting arrows from the backround. If not then I'll settle for one from the Twilight Realm