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Final Zelda Discussion - What's In, what's out?

D

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*sigh*

I've said this before. I don't dislike Midna. Not at all.

But I think a charcter should wait a few years before being in another mainstream game. I'm up for a TP sequel, but lets not turn it into the Legend of Midna, please. Link, Zelda, and Ganny should be the main returning figures.

Any character's popularity is based on how recent they appeared, and in what.

(I mean this, my own Zelda character was quite requested for Melee I think).

Games on consoles will be more popular, and have more chances to be repped, unless we have an oddball director (which we do).

Depends on what he wants to do, eh? Who can challenge the infinte wisdom of Sakurai?

And at the end of the day, we can argue as much as we like, but Sakurai probably does not know english. :p.
 

Stryks

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Yeah but if there isnt a direct sequel, midna qill become Sheik-like status, does it wouldnt make sense to add her in the next smash, with les spopularity, then rite now when she has a ton of popularity, and with brawl only a few months away...

Anyway glad some of u like the bomb arrows idea :p

And THE perfect stage for a WW stage would be where u fight against ganondorf, with the water falling and everything, the ground would be kinda slippery like in fountain of dreams, that the best idea IMO
 

Wiseguy

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The newer games in the franchise get the character models stages items and all of that other crap you mentioned only because they are new and more recognizable. They still pay attention to the older games even if it doesn't seem like it. That's why I think that the reps we will get will be characters that rep the franchise as a whole best. About old link being in 64 once again it's the same character just older.
Since you've conceeded that character models, stages and items from the newer games get in because they are more recagnizable - isn't it conceivable they they would also include a new and recagnizable character like Midna over an older, less well known character like Vaati?

Not to be rude, but how do you know that the Smash team pays attention to the older games? Judging from the Zelda content that has found it's way into Smash thus far, all indications are they they favor the newer games in the series.

Technically, OoT Link is a serparate character entirely from the Link in all other games (with the exception of MM). True, the Zelda series is unique in that it has multiple individuals with the same character traits, but if they wanted to choose a Link that best represented the series as a whole, why go with Old Link and not one of his younger models?

No what I'm saying is that they couldn't think of many moves for Zelda and then they remembered Shiek and the idea of a character that transforms to fit the situation was born. That seems more possible don't you think?
It's hard to say for certain, to be honest. But the fact that they spent so much time on a playable character that wasn't really a character at all, and had only appeared in a single game suggests that the Smash team was more interested in representing OoT than they were representing the entire Zelda series. If they wanted, they could have given Zelda a completely made up moveset (as they did with Captain Falcon) that would have represented ALL the Princess Zeldas - instead they included abilities that were unique to Zelda/Sheik from OoT.

I once again disagree, just because they had a character model doesn't mean they only rep the game the model is from. When a character is chosen for smash of course they will go with that characters most recent look(if they have one) but that doesn't mean all of the other games don't count.
While you make a strong argument for why the Smash team SHOULD remember the older Zelda games, there is simply no evidence that they have done so in the past or that they will so so in the future. Considering that they have never included a Zelda character, map or item in a Smash Bros game that wasn't taken straight form the most recent games in the series - it is very possible that we will see the same scenario play out in Brawl.

Recent looks is what Smash characters will get. The only exceptions being if that particular character has no new look or is most important and popular in an older form. An example of the second one would be Skull Kid.
For all we know, you could be right - but there is no way of knowing for sure. What you're advocating is not a bad way of selecting Zelda representatives - but there is no evidence that Sakurai or his team share your opinion. All we can go on is what has been included in past Smash games - and what is there shows a clear bias in favor of the newer Zelda games.
That bodes well for the main character in the most recent Zelda game: Midna.
 

Vali

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While you make a strong argument for why the Smash team SHOULD remember the older Zelda games, there is simply no evidence that they have done so in the past or that they will so so in the future. Considering that they have never included a Zelda character, map or item in a Smash Bros game that wasn't taken straight form the most recent games in the series - it is very possible that we will see the same scenario play out in Brawl.
What happened in Melee with OOT and MM stages then? That seems to make no sense in your logic since MM was the latest game yet the majority of Zelda characters came from OOT. They include the most updated look of each of their main franchise characters; Link, Young Link, Zelda and Ganondorf, which makes sense. However you're making the leap by suggesting that then they'll include a non-main character such as Midna in just because they're taking the images from Twilight Princess. That's an induction, and it's very well possibly that they'll just include a MM character such as Skull Kid to rep the 64 era.

What is there shows a clear bias in favor of the newer Zelda games. That bodes well for the main character in the most recent Zelda game: Midna.
That bias is cosmetic only. The only way it'll affect the character roster is if Sheik is included or not depending on the look that Zelda gets and the moves of those characters, not the characters themselves.
 

LostAddict

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What happened in Melee with OOT and MM stages then? That seems to make no sense in your logic since MM was the latest game yet the majority of Zelda characters came from OOT. They include the most updated look of each of their main franchise characters; Link, Young Link, Zelda and Ganondorf, which makes sense. However you're making the leap by suggesting that then they'll include a non-main character such as Midna in just because they're taking the images from Twilight Princess. That's an induction, and it's very well possibly that they'll just include a MM character such as Skull Kid to rep the 64 era.
Well, many regard OoT and MM as a duo collection. Considering it's the same Link, and MM continues directly after OoT's ending (or at least soon after). Thus, they represented both. As for using Skull Kid to rep the 64 era, why should they?

I can understand characters like Pit, Ice Climbers, G&W. They're old and forgotten, unique heroes that bring incredible nostalgia. 64 era? Not so much. It wasn't even that long ago. Also considering the fact both Melee and the original were very OoT and MM happy, I think they might be a bit tired of repping the 64 era. Skull Kid has missed his chance. Yes, there is a possibility, as there is a possibility for almost every character, however, it is rather slim.
 

Vali

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I was just including him as an example, hell they might even add Tingle for all we know >.> I think the glorified return of Termina Bay would be fitting enough for the 64 era, even though I do love Skull Kid I just don't think his chances are too high :(. Duo collection is a matter of opinion but it stands that they were separate games and thus Wiseguy's statement is false.
 

Fawriel

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I have to agree that the N64 era of Zelda probably had about enough rep already... In a way, the Hero of Time Link appeared thrice already although there were only two games so far.
Also, I'd say that they aren't biased towards the most recent game, but the most recent famed one. They had other Zelda games to choose from than OoT by the time Melee came out ( I think ), but they still chose to heavily represent it, since it's considered one of the best games ever. Now TP is there and is considered to be the new OoT by some.
On the other hand, Wind Waker is also quite popular, so it wouldn't surprise me to see even more than one character from that series (Tetra)... possibly at the expense of Midna. Who knows...
 

Stryks

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Id be good with just:

Link (TP)
Ganondorf (TP)
Zelda (TP)
Midna (TP)
WW link (WW duh :p)
Skull kid/zant/vaati (MM/TP/GBA)

That'd be 6 zelda characters in brawl, cant decide the last one, IMO vaati has the highest chance, beating zant by a little, I say 6 characters is enough...
 
D

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Vaati > Zant > Skull Kid? Oh, please. Zant has no chance if Midna's in. Vaati appears once as his normal self, twice as a monster. Skull Kid isn't a top candidate but he's at least on the same level as those chumps.
 

LukeFonFabre

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I'd put Vaati and Skull Kid at the same level really, Vaati has had more major roles but non of his games have been that huge, as opposed to Skull Kid only having one major role and 2 minor roles but appearing in Major titles (granted MM wasn't as big as OoT or TP, but I think it recieved much more attention than FSA and MC). Both can offer interesting movesets and styles, so neither beat each other out on that. The only thing that could give Vaati the edge is if WW Link gets in, and they choose Vaati as a villain from that part of the franchise as opposed to another villain from the OoT/TP side (though arguably you could say WW Link is sufficient to rep the Cel shaded part of the franchise, so it's not much of an edge).

Both seem much more likely than Zant though. Midna > Zant as far characters appearing in TP only are concerned, and I doubt they'd add more than one. Plus, chances are we'll be getting a TP Gannondorf, so we don't the minor villain if we already have the major villain. True, Skull Kid wasn't the main villain either, but Majora's Mask isn't really that easy to implement and it's transformations are god awfully ugly, so Skull Kid wearing the mask is really the better option (not to mention is pretty much 2 villains for the price of one).
 
D

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I'd put Vaati and Skull Kid at the same level really, Vaati has had more major roles but non of his games have been that huge, as opposed to Skull Kid only having one major role and 2 minor roles but appearing in Major titles (granted MM wasn't as big as OoT or TP, but I think it recieved much more attention than FSA and MC). Both can offer interesting movesets and styles, so neither beat each other out on that. The only thing that could give Vaati the edge is if WW Link gets in, and they choose Vaati as a villain from that part of the franchise as opposed to another villain from the OoT/TP side (though arguably you could say WW Link is sufficient to rep the Cel shaded part of the franchise, so it's not much of an edge).

Both seem much more likely than Zant though. Midna > Zant as far characters appearing in TP only are concerned, and I doubt they'd add more than one. Plus, chances are we'll be getting a TP Gannondorf, so we don't the minor villain if we already have the major villain. True, Skull Kid wasn't the main villain either, but Majora's Mask isn't really that easy to implement and it's transformations are god awfully ugly, so Skull Kid wearing the mask is really the better option (not to mention is pretty much 2 villains for the price of one).
Agreed. But I feel that with all the characters once representing the '64 era gone on to new models and games, Skull kid could represent the era well. That'd mean three eras of Zelda in 'Brawl, with WW Link, the TP Trio and a third and MM Skull kid.
 

Private Zulen

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I originally wrote this post for that new Ganon thread, but it was closed instantly, so I'm gonna post it here instead. Lawl.

I, personally, would like to see a Wind Waker Ganon, since I love the Wind Waker's design (even though my current avatar suggests otherwise). Even though he was *ahem* slightly larger around the waist, that badass robe and double blades just are unparralleled when it comes to OoT and even Twilight Princess. Of course, since Link's character design in Brawl is the same as it 'twas in Twilight Princess, the idea of Ganon having a Wind Waker and not a Twilight Princess design is completely shot down. Meh.

Also, I'm hoping they make his name "Ganon", since that's used in more of the games now. And Ganondorf never really sat well with me. It just seems kind of... silly.

Correct if I'm wrong, but didn't Sakurai say that there would be no more clones? I suppose this leaves Ganon with two options; out of the game, or a new moveset and appearance.
 
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I think the chances of a WW Link or Tetra or WW Zelda are completely ridiculous. The most reasonable thing is TP Zelda and Ganon. I doubt there would be Midna in Brawl as well, as for Zelda items, I think there should be Deku Nuts to blind your foes.
 

Stryks

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Its obvious that Midna will get in before zant, and not the other way around, but if Midnas in, that kinda raises Zants chances, being zant more of an enemy to Midna than she is to Link, IMO anyway XD
 

Fawriel

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I think the chances of a WW Link or Tetra or WW Zelda are completely ridiculous. The most reasonable thing is TP Zelda and Ganon.
Hahahaha... NO.

WW Link is almost a no-brainer. The cute cartoony design is popular. A young Link, plus the cartoon style, are preferred by the creator of the Legend of Zelda series, Miyamoto. He appears in two games.
They had a Young Link in Melee.
Do you seriously think they'd have FEWER characters repping Zelda in Brawl? They had FIVE in Melee, Sheik is out, the Melee design of Young Link is out. Oh sure, let's just leave the three main guys to represent the franchise!
No.
 
D

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Evolution Chain:

Young Link -> WW Link -> Tingle
WW Tetra -> Zelda -> Sheik -> Tingle
Zant -> Ganondorf -> Tingle

Eventually, everyone turns into Tingle.
 

Chief Mendez

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Brilliant!

Private Zulen: Ganon really should be named 'Ganon', and his WW incarnation is indeed the best.

Fawriel: I'm a tad shaky on WW Link being in as Y. Link sub. If Zelda's such a big series, and we at least have 5 reps in Brawl, I don't think he'd be a clone, or even a Luigification. When it comes down to it, he should either have an entirely original moveset, or just not be there.
 

Fawriel

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I don't see your point.
Why would that speak against him being a clone, and what's wrong with clones anyway? YLink plays very differently from Link in the ideal case... Link is a slow sword-fighter who has some tricks to back up his swordplay. Young Link is, as Buzz put it, a low-flying fighter jet. That's in the ideal case at least, they made his projectiles still too slow and stuff... but that's nothing that can't be fixed.
Why *should* he be so different? He's "a" Link, he finds arrows, bombs, a boomerang, etc. His sword attacks can be different for all I care, but why should the young version of Link use brainless attacks like the Skull Hammer that everyone keeps suggesting?

... I really can't think of anything else since I don't even really get your point. *scratches his head*
 

dynamic_entry

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Despite being called WW link, the character is now, far from exclusively appearing in WW. the design was in 4swords, and adventures, and had a game all to himself (no multiplayer) in the minish cap, and is going to feature in the upcoming phantom hourglass (where he will ACTUALLY be the same link, not just the same design). i think the idea is that because he has the potential to be a unique and individual character, and has access to some groovy items (esp. in WW and MC) then he might aswell use them. the skull hammer is possibly not the greatest choice, but there is the gust jar, the deku leaf, the roc's cape, the grappling hook and in addition some unique sword techniques all of which could contribute to a character who is worlds away from TP link, while stille remaining true to the francise.

ps. the name GANON only applies when he has transformed into some variety of pig monster. GANONDORF is his real name. show the guy a little respect.
 

Fawriel

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...rawr.
I guess my reason for defending young Link's moveset like that is because I main him... I just love the way he plays.
I guess it's about 50/50...
Sure, he's a unique character in a way and stuff. But uniqueness for uniqueness' sake? The bow-arrow-bomb combination is perfect. I see no reason to change it.
 

dynamic_entry

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sure hes unique now, but only insofar as a clone can be unique from it's original.

and i spose it is kinda uniqueness for the sake of it, but why not? if he has the ability to be different and possibly cooler with new items then he should be. he'd still be link, just smaller and with a fresh spin on his B moves.
 
D

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The bomb arrows would be so awesome, but I'm not sure how they'd incorporate them.
 

HideousBeing

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It seems that Sakurai is reluctant to put "clone" characters in smash by the current absence of any at all, and everyone's disappointment with the concept. ...But who knows? Young Link mains, keep your fingers crossed.
 

Stryks

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I doubt Y.link will turn out a clone, I mean he'll probably be replaced by WW link, and he has an arsenal of unique items/weapons and abilities that can be added for his moveset :p
 

petre

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The bomb arrows would be so awesome, but I'm not sure how they'd incorporate them.
that would be sweet, it could be as simple as if you have a bomb out, the next arrow you fire will have the bomb attached. and it would be really cool cause you could also pick up a bo-bomb and attach that to your arrow the same way. yeah, it would be easier to throw it, but you could give it a low trajectory to hit people in weird positions (below you). ultimate edgeguarding!
 

Chief Mendez

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Note: It's just "Ganon" in Windwaker. So there.

Anyway...

Fawriel said:
Why would that speak against him being a clone, and what's wrong with clones anyway? YLink plays very differently from Link in the ideal case... Link is a slow sword-fighter who has some tricks to back up his swordplay. Young Link is, as Buzz put it, a low-flying fighter jet. That's in the ideal case at least, they made his projectiles still too slow and stuff... but that's nothing that can't be fixed.
Why *should* he be so different? He's "a" Link, he finds arrows, bombs, a boomerang, etc. His sword attacks can be different for all I care, but why should the young version of Link use brainless attacks like the Skull Hammer that everyone keeps suggesting?
Let's not get into the whole "clone" argument. I get enough of that on Wiseguy's thread.

It speaks against him because, well...all those characters on the first page? Most of them would be more deserving than Y. Link. Then there's Midna. It seems everyone here's in agreement that Midna will be in Brawl, but in which state? If she's riding Wolf Link, then Y. Link's chances are even lower: two of the 'same' character is quite enough. In any case, if Y. Link is in Brawl, he wouldn't be a clone, that's for sure.
 

Wiseguy

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I don't see your point.
Why would that speak against him being a clone, and what's wrong with clones anyway? YLink plays very differently from Link in the ideal case... Link is a slow sword-fighter who has some tricks to back up his swordplay. Young Link is, as Buzz put it, a low-flying fighter jet. That's in the ideal case at least, they made his projectiles still too slow and stuff... but that's nothing that can't be fixed.
Why *should* he be so different? He's "a" Link, he finds arrows, bombs, a boomerang, etc. His sword attacks can be different for all I care, but why should the young version of Link use brainless attacks like the Skull Hammer that everyone keeps suggesting?

... I really can't think of anything else since I don't even really get your point. *scratches his head*
Hey! That's my line.

Anyway I agree with you Fawriel, for what it's worth. They don't have to reinvent Young Link to make WW Link an worthy addition to Brawl. The same items that made Link famous to begin with are also WW Link's signature attacks (ie: bow, boomerang, bombs, spin attack, ect.) so I see no reason to change him dramatically. I could definitely see his grab being his grapple hook, though.
 

Chief Mendez

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But is that really worth being so redundant with the Link's? I thought in Brawl, clones only exist so we can include characters that otherwise wouldn't get in... characters like the Black Knight.

I mean, if there can be two guys in green tunics with swords and blonde hair, then what's to stop there being two caped, blue-haired swordfighters from being in? (Oh the hypocrisy!)

No, they don't have to change his moveset, but they'd have to at least Luigify him to make his inclusion worthwhile.
 

Hitokiri Battousai

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Let me interrupt all this Link talk...

Heheh.

I think that hands down everyone will agree that Ganondorf will appear in Brawl but my question is if whether he'll appear again as a clone of Captain Falcon or if he'll rightfully get his deserving and personal move set. I tell ya its swords n' sorcery! Anyone agree on the non-clone idea?
 

Fawriel

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Well, duh. Ganondorf as a Falcon clone is just... sick.

Big, bad king of all evil, bearer of the Triforce of Power:
"I'm a ballerina! I can spin in the air! Come here, let me hug you!" *zzzzzzzzap*
 

LukeFonFabre

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Despite his ^B practically being a ****** move, it still doesn't really fit the King of darkness. That said I'm not too sure it fits Captain Falcon that well either.

Plus, as they were originally going to give him his own moveset, I think making him a falcon clone was simply due to get him in the game despite running out of time. He'll most likely get completely redone, especially seeing as he's used swords twice now.
 

Wiseguy

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^^^
But is that really worth being so redundant with the Link's? I thought in Brawl, clones only exist so we can include characters that otherwise wouldn't get in... characters like the Black Knight.
Thta's one purpose of clones, but another is to save valuable time by including certain characters as clones - when it makes sense to do so.


I mean, if there can be two guys in green tunics with swords and blonde hair, then what's to stop there being two caped, blue-haired swordfighters from being in? (Oh the hypocrisy!)

OBJECTION!

Exibt A:





Exibit B:





The fact that they are rendered in unique art styles makes TP Link and WW Link unique. Regardless, either Old Link or Young Link are more important to the Zelda series than Marth and Ike are combined to the Fire Emblem series.

Case dismissed.

No, they don't have to change his moveset, but they'd have to at least Luigify him to make his inclusion worthwhile.
Fair enough. Lugifying is certainly preferable in this instance, I think we can ALL agree on that.
 

JoeLewko

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Shiek, Link Ganondorf all should be in it. Zelda i wasn't a huge fan of, and i think sheik should be her own character, Zelda had some power, but Shiek was almots always used (well by the people i played against anyway). Zant could also be taken into consideration.
 

Diddy Kong

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Wait your saying Zelda should be out and Sheik should stay?? Wtf? Zelda must return, there are so many things they could do with her without Sheik. Sheik was only added in Melee cause Zelda herself wasn't all that unique, but now after TP and tWW Sakurai actually has quite something to draw moves from. The Light Arrows especially would be awesome.

Sheik won't be comming back. Neither in Brawl, nor in any other Zelda game. Midna probarly also won't, but atleast she was in TP which was the most recent Zelda. That, and Sheik's role was never too big anyway. Midna's was.
 
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