Fellas fellas! Let's try to be more sensitive to Sakurai

[elatedshyguy]

Link to original post: [drupal=5341]Fellas fellas! Let's try to be more sensitive to Sakurai[/drupal]



A lot of people don't like Smash as it is now, and they speak of Sakurai as if he is the enemy of Smash. I find that to be quite insulting towards Sakurai since he is the creator of the ever so praised Smash Bros Melee. So Brawl wasn't as competitive as Melee, "Don't hate the maker, hate the game."

 

[Shorts]

NOPE. Melee was 100% accidentally so competitive. It just happened, that way. It was never the intent. If you realize what the Kirby series was, and what it meant in comparison to the likes of Mario and Zelda, you would realize Sakurai never intended for melee to happen like it did. It was the best fluke to ever happen to Nintendo.

I love Sakurai btw. Hate his videogame philosophy for the most part though.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Lol, what if (and I know it sounds crazy) he deliberately includes the glitches in SSB4, what is your opinion on that? I'd say it made Melee very enticing and if that were to become a permanent thing for the Smash Bros series, Smash Bros would attract more fighting game fans. But I can only speak for myself, "games with such depth attract me."

 

[Shorts]

Let me tell you now, if SSB4 is competitive, it will NOT be by "accident". It will be Namco's planning. Bless their hearts,

 

[elatedshyguy]

Lmao! "bless their hearts" But I hope Namco don't drastically change Smash, because I like the uniqueness of Smash.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

There will be air-tripping......mark my words.

 

[Teran]

I think a pairing of Sakurai and Namco is actually quite a good thing.

Sakurai's philosophy does lead itself to one very excellent result, the lack of artificial skill barriers. Hopefully the game will be very accessible, yet have potential balance and depth to it with Namco keeping Sakurai's more outlandish ideas in check.

Honestly I dislike the idea that pulling off difficult technical manoeuvres is required. Smash or any fighter should boil down the mental aspect with prediction and spacing etc. Why instead of pressing L to cancel lag, isn't the lag at just half its current time? The actual way the game is played would be EXACTLY the same, except you don't have to learn how to clickclickclick all the time to actually be passably okay at the game.

I think part of Brawl's initial surge in popularity was its accessibility Sure it has a **** ton of issues on the competitive side, but hey, people could actually jump in and, you know, play the game and didn't feel too alienated by complex technical barriers.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I think a pairing of Sakurai and Namco is actually quite a good thing.

Sakurai's philosophy does lead itself to one very excellent result, the lack of artificial skill barriers. Hopefully the game will be very accessible, yet have potential balance and depth to it with Namco keeping Sakurai's more outlandish ideas in check.

Honestly I dislike the idea that pulling off difficult technical manoeuvres is required. Smash or any fighter should boil down the mental aspect with prediction and spacing etc. Why instead of pressing L to cancel lag, isn't the lag at just half its current time? The actual way the game is played would be EXACTLY the same, except you don't have to learn how to clickclickclick all the time to actually be passably okay at the game.

I think part of Brawl's initial surge in popularity was its accessibility Sure it has a **** ton of issues on the competitive side, but hey, people could actually jump in and, you know, play the game and didn't feel too alienated by complex technical barriers.

I love you. Did you know that?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I agree, it is entirely possible to have Melee's competitive depth without it being require to mash L when you hit the ground. lol

 

[Shorts]

I think Brawl's surge in popularity had to do with the fact that:

A. It was for the Wii
B. It was MUCH anticipated sequel.

 

[Krystedez]

I choose to simply not get my hopes up. The pair may look enticcing (Namco / Sakurai) and the programmers / developers on board may be the 'best and the brightest', but when it all comes down to it, the game will be a huge disappointment for one crowd, and a godsend for another.

I'd rather let my hopes be medicore to low, and then be surprised, then have high hopes and anticipation and be utterly devastated. I would ALSO love it if they made the smash site dojo like they did with brawl, so that we don't have to worry about the sting of finding out it looks terrible the day we buy it.

I expect Sakurai will do his best along with Namco, and that is all I will expect. This series is a long running battle of fan service; you can't please everyone, but you can damn bet your bottom dollar that they will certainly try.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Lol, what if (and I know it sounds crazy) he deliberately includes the glitches in SSB4, what is your opinion on that?

Melee was not good because of "glitches". This has only been covered like 10 million times.

Try posting about this subject when you at least have your head wrapped around the ****in' basics instead of before, you know, to avoid pointless ****.

Also people have every right for disliking a man who intentionally ****ed with a good thing, it's kinda the same reason no one likes George Lucas anymore.

Ehhhh tripping ehhh Greedo shot first ehhhh pickles.

 

[Teran]

I think Brawl's surge in popularity had to do with the fact that:

A. It was for the Wii
B. It was MUCH anticipated sequel.

I'm talking from a competitive standpoint.

Besides, Melee sold like 7 million copies that's not a small number.

 

[Shorts]

I'm talking from a competitive standpoint.

Besides, Melee sold like 7 million copies that's not a small number.

Oh okay I thought you were simply talking sales. Which, well, isn't that fair considering how many Wiis have been bought, and how many GCs were bought. I do believe however more percentage of GC owners owned Melee, then Wii owners owned Brawl though.

 

[FlareHabanero]

You got to keep in mind too that Brawl was the first game in the series that wasn't developed by Hal, so naturally it wasn't going to be exactly like it's predecessors from the start.

 

[Shorts]

No one should have ever liked George Lucas unless it was for American Graffiti. smd Star Wars.

 

[Teran]

Pretty much every GC owner owned Melee lol.

 

[Chronodiver Lokii]

Pretty much every GC owner owned Melee lol.

Reason I got a GameCube in the first place

 

[#HBC | Joker]

People own Wiis for stuff besides brawl? Like what? Mario Party? Mario Kart? Zelda? Those fans prolly bought Brawl...

Lol at anyone who says "Wii Fit"

 

[Teran]

I BOUGHT A MARIO FOR MY SON SO HE WOULD GIVE ME PEACE AND QUIET

Also yes, the Sports/Fit/Party Game crowd.

 

[Shorts]

Teran give me your son. You don't want him, and I do, so, win win.

*puts out hands*

 

[Firus]

I'd like to say two things regarding this topic.

One, regarding Sakurai himself, he decided it was a good idea to punish you for walking in a fighting game. I will not be sensitive to him. I respect that he created Smash Bros. and created two amazing games before Brawl, but Brawl was the biggest letdown in the world for me. That was partially my own fault, over-hyping and all, but even to this day I can't enjoy it very much unless I'm playing to screw around. That's all well and good, but it's just not how I like my video games. So I will reserve the right to be bitter over Brawl while simultaneously respecting him somewhat for what he did with Melee and 64.

Two, I would like to say that, as interesting as the ATs in Melee are, it's not why I like the game. I like it because it's more competitive, but not in that sense. I've never been a fan of the super-secret button-mashing fighting game club. L-canceling and wavedashing are loads better than Street Fighter etc. type moves, but it's still something that, as a mostly non-competitive player, I don't really have the time or dedication to really get into. What I love about Melee is that it's fast-paced. That you fall fast, jump fast, run fast. I like the little things you can do that take slightly more strategic/gameplay knowledge to do, and that you can even just do for fun. Dashdancing, for example, can actually be used strategically for mindgames, but it's also just fun to do. I like the things like that, and I just like that I can have a lot of fun playing it seriously, playing to win but able to have fun even when I lose.

Brawl just doesn't do that for me. I don't like the physics, I don't like the pacing, I loathe tripping with a passion, and I've never really found myself getting any better at the game. I've never had a true main because I can never figure out who I don't suck with, and although I can occasionally do quite well when playing to win, it often goes the other way, and it ceases to be fun.

Anyway, not trying to start any Melee vs. Brawl there because I fully respect other people's opinions, whether they love or hate either or both games, and I respect people whatever they think. Just thought I'd state my take on the matter and why I don't care to be sensitive to Sakurai.

Also, I'm 110% with Krystedez. I don't want to get excited at all for SSB4, because I did that for six months before Brawl was released, and not only am I embarrassed to think about how much stock I put into Brawl as being the best game of my lifetime and all, but the fact that I constantly waited for it and got hyped for it was a large factor in at least my initial (well, by "initial," I mean a month or so afterward) utter disappointment with the game. Not that I really get that excited about games anymore anyway, but I'd rather be pleasantly surprised than let down again.

 

[elatedshyguy]

I see so Melee is competitive even without the ATs because it's faster. That's all I wanted to know, thanks everyone (I'm new to playing Smash seriously).

 

[Teran]

I see so Melee is competitive even without the ATs because it's faster. That's all I wanted to know, thanks everyone (I'm new to playing Smash seriously).

That's really not why.

For one the lack of tripping removes a stupid random factor that Brawl has. It also has better overall character balance, not to say that the entire cast can do well, but if you look at the tournament results over the years, you'll see that a good number of characters have been highly successful.

Ultimately it is the decent overall balance and the lower level of random factors within the game that make it inherently better on the competitive front.

If Brawl didn't have tripping/planking and some characters were buffed to even it out a bit, it could be considered a good competitive game. The lower hit stun and floaty physics just change the way you go about fighting, but it doesn't actually make it inherently less competitive just because the approach and defence methods are different.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I think it's perfectly fair to fault Sakurai when he deliberately removed aspects of Smash that made Melee more competitive. And **** tripping.

 

[elatedshyguy]

Thanks

That's really not why.

For one the lack of tripping removes a stupid random factor that Brawl has. It also has better overall character balance, not to say that the entire cast can do well, but if you look at the tournament results over the years, you'll see that a good number of characters have been highly successful.

Ultimately it is the decent overall balance and the lower level of random factors within the game that make it inherently better on the competitive front.

If Brawl didn't have tripping/planking and some characters were buffed to even it out a bit, it could be considered a good competitive game. The lower hit stun and floaty physics just change the way you go about fighting, but it doesn't actually make it inherently less competitive just because the approach and defence methods are different.

I came to Smash Boards to know why Melee is more preferable (competitively) and to learn how to play Smash competitively, and you really helped.

 

[Luigitoilet]

for some reason it never gets old to taste the tears of people crying about tripping

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I wonder, how does Sakurai feel about the fact that every time a person randomly trips, they shake their fist at the heavens and curse his name?

SAKURAI!!!!!

 

[Shorts]

The best part about Brawl's development is that if Sakurai would have said no to the job, they would have simply expanded Melee.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I think I just died a little bit inside.

 

[Pachinkosam]

Pretty much every GC owner owned Melee lol.

My brother told me to get melee i didn't know what the game was about.
But he told me the rules of the game.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

I wonder, how does Sakurai feel about the fact that every time a person randomly trips, they shake their fist at the heavens and curse his name?

SAKURAI!!!!!

this will never get old.

also, how did Bamco do on that Tales of Vs game? i never played it but it'll give us a better idea on how they can into balance.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Does anyone else prefer Brawl's physics? I feel like I'm completely alone lol.


Specific opinions: I don't like melee's speed. It feels heavy. I think an amount of shieldstun somewhere between melee and brawl would be nice. I like the OOS options in brawl, but I admit I think it's kind of lame that almost nothing is safe on shield, so again, happy medium.

In terms of airdodging and acting out of hitstun, I agree melee's combo game can feel satisfying, but I personally garner a bit more satisfaction from reading whether or not my opponent will airdodge and hitting them after the animation than I get from the perfect execution required by melee.

Brawl has a lot of flaws. Tripping is dumb, obviously, as an example. But what I'm hoping for in Smash 4, rather than SSBM2, is something of a happy medium between Brawl's bait-and-punish/shield-and-punish gameplay and the combo games offered by SSB1 and SSBM. I also really don't want to have to hit L every time I land. Melee fans who defend L-cancelling are completely irrational. :\

For the record, I lack a deep understanding of competitive melee, but I did play it casually for a number of years like most of us did.

 

[Life]

Melee has a couple things that still annoy me. L-canceling (y'all already covered that). That thing where you're playing a fastfaller, try to shieldgrab near the edge, and get pushed off and nair to your death.

Brawl has a few things that also annoy me. Tripping (again, it's been covered). Airdodging and attacking out of hitstun (though momentum canceling is nice). Ness and Lucas' grab release being randomly longer. The dash dancing nerf.

But I think Sakurai will get it right this time.

Why?

Because that game is awesome.

 

[Krystedez]

Melee's speed isn't really heavy so much as it feels clunky and unrefined, whereas Brawl is imo... The only time Melee works is when you are actually putting effort into the game. Brawl literally takes no effort to have fun at and just play with other Brawl players. Melee, if you are trying to play with other Melee players that know the game deeply, then good luck putting up a challenge.

I used to play Melee all the time when it first came out and for several years after. I quit when I headed into High School junior year I believe, and then college came and I was super into Brawl. It didn't feel the same, it didn't play the same, it's physics were weird, and I hated some of the things they changed. It wasn't the same gameplay experience you could enjoy learning with others like people did with Melee when it first came out.

Now I can't even give my friends on Purdue's campus a bit of a challenge because what little tech skill I had from Melee has disappeared. The game focuses hardcore on your execution method more than your mind games, but you can't have just execution either. That's why I LIKED Brawl more in the sense it let you focus more on outplaying your opponent's thought process and decisions. You just don't teach that to people. Tech skill you CAN teach and practice, but thought process and decision making relies on your own effort to learn and adapt and practice. Everyone's minds are different in that respect.

^this is why I HATE having to give advice or matchup experience to other people because it's extremely hard to do so, and it sometimes just makes it worse for them.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Plenty of casual players enjoyed Melee because they don't whine or care about how the game allows to do things you can't do right away because lol it takes practice. They just play the ****ing game.

But yes, tell me how we all played a game that apparently didn't work when we weren't in super competitive mode or some ****.

 

[Luigitoilet]

I like Melee and Brawl. I like Brawl a little more because it has more characters and I think the clone characters is a cop out.

**** SSB64 though. talk about floaty and clunky

 

[Teran]

SSB64 had the Fighting Polygon Team, whose them was awesome.

10/10

 

[Crooked Crow]

I think Nintendo used a crafty marketing strategy to get a larger audience for the upcoming Smash.

Might be possible. Reel them in with a casual system, and hook, line, sinker. Sakurai also said Smash 4 will be unlike anything he's produced before, source is long gone, but we can't assume it'll be garbage. It has the potential to be garbage, sure.

 

[-DR3W-]

SSB64 had the Fighting Polygon Team, whose them was awesome.

10/10

Quoted for truth.