Fellas fellas! Let's try to be more sensitive to Sakurai

[Morin0]

I like Melee and Brawl. I like Brawl a little more because it has more characters and I think the clone characters is a cop out.

**** SSB64 though. talk about floaty and clunky

Brawl > ssb64 > Melee

In terms of which game is more "floaty"


Can you expand on "clunky"?

 

[Luigitoilet]

SSB64 has a 86% "clunk factor"

in contrast to Melee and Brawl which have a 38% and 33% clunk factor respectively

higher clunk factor is equal to lower enjoyment level

people complain all the time about the tripping factor but nobody ever brings up the diminished clunk factor Brawl showcases.

 

[Morin0]

I still don't know what this "clunk factor" actually is. It's really quantifiable? o_____o

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I still don't know what this "clunk factor" actually is. It's really quantifiable? o_____o

Ease and flexibility of movement without doing anything fancy to achieve it. Some players really notice when games lack it. Others, like people who play Korean MMOs, don't even seem to notice clunky engines. Part of the reason WoW was so successful for example was the fluidity and ease of movement compared to past MMOs.

With that said, I don't think of SSB64 as being especially clunky. Melee on the other hand...

 

[NinjaFoxX]

like people who play Korean MMOs, don't even seem to notice clunky engines.

all lies.

i know for a fact games like Grand Chase, Latale, Maple, DFO, etc have some mad clunky movement.
GC got better the company made Elsword and is soooo much better its not even funny.

 

[Deleted member]

I doubt Sakurai is concerned over a minority disliking parts or all of Brawl. It sold well and the majority liked it. People should be free to criticize Sakurai as much as possible; because for all we know, someone within Sora Ltd. might be looking at the site, see suggestions made to game play changes, and suggest it to Sakurai, in which he'll look over it and see whenever or not it can benefit the game.

 

[Morin0]

Ease and flexibility of movement without doing anything fancy to achieve it. Some players really notice when games lack it. Others, like people who play Korean MMOs, don't even seem to notice clunky engines. Part of the reason WoW was so successful for example was the fluidity and ease of movement compared to past MMOs.

With that said, I don't think of SSB64 as being especially clunky. Melee on the other hand...

In that case, Luigitoilet is very wrong. Smash 64 is the least clunky of them all in terms of movement. So would a good example of a smash game being clunky is the lack of Brawl's ease to dash dance? In both Melee and 64, if you move your analog stick right and left, your character dashes back and forth. Sounds pretty fluid, huh? In Brawl you can't do this unless you do it really fast.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You still have to do it fast in Melee to keep the guess game going better and your options more available.

SM64 still doesn't feel fluid in movement compared to the others, even I agree when I play that one I feel just so...trapped and static when I try to play it. Least liked of them all 3 smash games.

 

[Morin0]

You still have to do it fast in Melee to keep the guess game going better and your options more available.

SM64 still doesn't feel fluid in movement compared to the others, even I agree when I play that one I feel just so...trapped and static when I try to play it. Least liked of them all 3 smash games.

Keeping the "guess game going better" isn't the point. If you alternate left and right quickly, you will obviously dash dance faster thus making the technique effective in mindgaming your opponent but if you do it slowly, it isn't as effective. The point I was trying to make though, was how easy and natural it is to perform in Melee and 64. Not necessarily if you need to do it quickly in order for it to be effective.

Try it out. Pick up Melee and 64 and slowly alternate directions until you're dash dancing and then alternate directions quickly and you will be almost dash dancing in place. Try doing that in Brawl. You can only do it by moving the analog stick quickly and you might even trip

I also hope you're not confusing not being able to do anything due to hitstun/shieldstun with the game being "clunky"

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Eh, it's easier idk why but it doesn't make it feel clunky in Brawl or Melee.

I don't mean being combo'd/being in hitstun, I mean how it plays, it doesn't play smooth to me at all compared to Melee and Brawl. It feels to static and not fluid. It doesn't feel like characters or moves that well or smooth like the latter two do where I feel like I'm more in control where as 64 I don't.

 

[Strong Badam]

L-Canceling is a bad mechanic.
Morino: Dash dancing quickly is not an intelligent thing to do. The entire point is that you weave in and out of your opponent's effective attack range and bait him into attacking, which you punish. The fact you CAN do it "slowly" is what makes it useful in Melee/64.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

In that case, Luigitoilet is very wrong. Smash 64 is the least clunky of them all in terms of movement. So would a good example of a smash game being clunky is the lack of Brawl's ease to dash dance? In both Melee and 64, if you move your analog stick right and left, your character dashes back and forth. Sounds pretty fluid, huh? In Brawl you can't do this unless you do it really fast.

Yeah, I liked dash dancing more in earlier smash iterations. There are examples of clunkiness in each game.

For example, if you don't play a lot of Brawl, the buffer window can feel pretty clunky because it causes you to accidentally buffer a walk upon landing a lot, something melee vets probably found annoying.

I find Brawl to probably be the least rigid overall, though. Melee gave people that freedom after lot of practice with various little tricks like dash dancing, l-cancelling, wavelanding, and of course wavedashing. While some of those options are satisfying to use, you can gain additional fluidity with a lot of practice in Brawl, too. Like, compare videos of 2008 brawl to 2012 brawl, there's just no contest. But it isn't because they mastered a series of little techinques, it's because they became more familiar with the engine and how the game works over time.

Again, melee is a great game that I enjoyed for a number of years, but given the choice now I'd almost never go back to it except to be nostalgic with friends. I'm close to alone in my opinion around here but Brawl just feels a lot better to play to me... though Brawl does have a lot of problems I hope they address in SSB4. (Tripping, and I'd really like for breaking out of combos like in brawl to exist, but with a little more effort on the part of the player rather than just doing whatever after frame 26)

L-Canceling is a bad mechanic.

Yeah. At some point during Brawl's development (not sure when, around the time of the e4all demo) I recall hearing about a different method of reducing landing lag that was in the demo. Like, you could fast fall, but you'd suffer lag, but if you performed a slow landing, you wouldn't lag. This probably isn't the perfect solution (hence why it was probably not kept for the final release) but what I like about it, is that it made whether or not to lag-cancel a choice rather than something you just always had to do.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

L-Canceling is a bad mechanic.
Morino: Dash dancing quickly is not an intelligent thing to do. The entire point is that you weave in and out of your opponent's effective attack range and bait him into attacking, which you punish. The fact you CAN do it "slowly" is what makes it useful in Melee/64.

You can still weave in and out if you do it fast.

 

[Master Knight DH]

But I think Sakurai will get it right this time.

Why?

By making characters like Marth 2HK even Bowser even if the Bowser player is competent?

By removing any DIing options, making you completely susceptible to a full combo if you get hit once without some form of knockback immunity?

By once again providing no advantage to clashing with a higher power character?

If he answers yes to even one of those three, yeah sure he's getting it right.

 

[Teran]

Well I'd assume Namco would help him get it right in that department.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, being big has never had any real advantage in the past except in extreme cases like dedede and snake who are megahard to kill.

And usually being hard to kill isn't really enough because you take so much extra damage based on your ludicrous size.

DK in brawl is all right, but only because he has nothing in common with most other large characters. His ground speed and attacks are all super fast and he has really safe defensive options. He's basically Wolf with a really big hitbox. ... OK, well not exactly but I hope I've gotten the point across

 

[Shorts]

Well I'd assume Namco would help him get it right in that department.

Yeah, I would figure this game will be the best balanced so far in the series. We have the Tekken guy working on it. I mean, I doubt it will be paced like Melee is, but it won't be Brawl either.

However it turns out, I'm confident this will be the best Smash so far.

 

[Teran]

It won't be if it doesn't have m3w2

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, I would figure this game will be the best balanced so far in the series. We have the Tekken guy working on it. I mean, I doubt it will be paced like Melee is, but it won't be Brawl either.

However it turns out, I'm confident this will be the best Smash so far.

I hope this is the case. Naturally, given how much I enjoyed 64, Melee, and Brawl, I expect this game to be of the same caliber, but I'm really hoping this game goes above my expectation.

 

[Shorts]

I hope this is the case. Naturally, given how much I enjoyed 64, Melee, and Brawl, I expect this game to be of the same caliber, but I'm really hoping this game goes above my expectation.

If Namco wasn't brought on to help with balance, then I don't know why they were brought on at all. The guy from ToS is also been brought on, so I expect the "Story" to be pretty good as well. Really, when you combine Sakurai, with those two minds, you're bound to get something great. Plus I'm sure Miyamoto will dip his hands in a bit, in SOME way. (Though probably not in a big way)

I have really, really high expectations for this game.

 

[Teran]

I have really, really high expectations for this game.

I remember a time when this was the case and ones expectations were surpassed.

It's sort of a bad habit to have now.

 

[Shorts]

I remember a time when this was the case and ones expectations were surpassed.

It's sort of a bad habit to have now.

Well, the only place I don't have high expectations is character/stage inclusion. But besides that, with balance/gameplay and story, they can only build up from Brawl IMO. Especially with the people who are working on the game.

 

[Teran]

Tbh I thought Subspace Emissary's story was pretty entertaining.

People say "oh it was just some typical fanfictiony story", and it's like well yeah, you get 30+ characters from different gaming franchises and what the **** do you expect? It was sort of the whole point, but in general I thought the actual videoclips etc were pretty funny.

I still crack up every time I watch that scene where they leave a trophy out for Wario and he rolls up, sees that free prize, and just lols to himself. Laughter is infectious, especially villainous laughter.

 

[Shorts]

The story for SSE will never be a riveting epic. And it's not like Sakurai is the best with storylines, so for who he is, the fact that he tackled such a project is impressive. But the outcome is what it is. It's good, but, it could be a lot better. Which is why I'm expecting so much more with this team. I recall in the old SSB4 thread no one wanted third party companies involved with Smash, but, the way Nintendo arranged it, it's actually the best thing for Smash IMO.

But you're right, the story isn't that bad, and it does have some cool cutscenes.

 

[Teran]

Dude it's a lighthearted party game published by Nintendo, don't expect Namco to have any large input on the story, and don't expect it to be a "riveting epic".

 

[ndayday]

Yeah...what exactly do you expect? The Odyssey? Romeo and Juliet?

"O Mario, Mario, wherefore art thou Mario?"

 

[Shorts]

Dude it's a lighthearted party game published by Nintendo, don't expect Namco to have any large input on the story, and don't expect it to be a "riveting epic".

The story for SSE will never be a riveting epic.

The storyline will be probably be better simply because of who is working on it. And yeah, I expect Namco to have large imput on the story.

 

[Luigitoilet]

they need to make the new Story mode like Kid Icarus Uprising. The dialogue and characters in that game made me slog through the controls and unfun gameplay because it was so charming and self-aware.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Today, 10:40 PM
Remove user from ignore list
Shortiecanbrawl
This message is hidden because Shortiecanbrawl is on your ignore list.



this thread is pretty confusing this way

 

[Luigitoilet]

dude nobody cares who is on forum user #12823723728376's ignore list and it's pretentious to assume otherwise and post about it. how cool can it possibly make you feel anyways?

 

[Shorts]

they need to make the new Story mode like Kid Icarus Uprising. The dialogue and characters in that game made me slog through the controls and unfun gameplay because it was so charming and self-aware.

While I do think the storyline will be better, I don't think it will be KI status. Mostly because a lot of the characters don't talk, and, most of the characters have too much of a backstory to really add like Sakurai did to the KI characters. I mean, he reinvented KI. Whoever made it first should be proud.

Although I don't really know anything, and the 3DS is getting a separate game, which is where you will be "leveling up" your characters. Sounds like the story-mode to me. And I'm assuming that will be the main focal point of the 3DS version, so, the story/one player mode will probably be decent. HOPEFULLY, as good as KI's story, just, in different ways.

 

[Oasis_S]

The storyline will be probably be better simply because of who is working on it. And yeah, I expect Namco to have large imput on the story.

But Sakurai is working on it, and Namco is only going to do what Sakurai tells them to do.

 

[Shorts]

But Sakurai is working on it, and Namco is only going to do what Sakurai tells them to do.

Sakurai may be the head honcho, but I don't think he's going to leave the ENTIRE storyline up to him. Isn't that why Namco is here in the first place? HMMM? OASIS?

Sakurai went into Brawl overwhelmed, and he admitted he needed help. This is where Namco comes in.

If I recall, Sakurai did call Melee his worst SSB project because it invited too many long time fans and hardcore gamers and least newcomers.

I've never heard that, but if it's true that would be something. Do you have a linky?

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

If I recall, Sakurai did call Melee his worst SSB project because it invited too many long time fans and hardcore gamers and least newcomers.

 

[Oasis_S]

Sakurai may be the head honcho, but I don't think he's going to leave the ENTIRE storyline up to him. Isn't that why Namco is here in the first place? HMMM? OASIS?

Sakurai went into Brawl overwhelmed, and he admitted he needed help. This is where Namco comes in.

FIIINE.

It just bothers me seeing you so.

Hopeful.

 

[Luigitoilet]

I'm hopeful because Brawl and Melee and SSB64 were all kickass games that I spent many happy hours playing.

I may have gotten a LITTLE overhyped with the SSB Dojo updates, but the way 90% of SWF acts like Brawl killed their entire family is something I just can't relate to because I'm so completely casual, relatively speaking.

What DID crush my dreams was just how bad the online was, and in my eyes that's the only thing they absolutely NEED to improve

 

[Shorts]

FIIINE.

It just bothers me seeing you so.

Hopeful.

The day Namco said they were involved, I shed a tear of joy. Because I knew then, this might actually make me happy.

I may have gotten a LITTLE overhyped with the SSB Dojo updates, but the way 90% of SWF acts like Brawl killed their entire family is something I just can't relate to because I'm so completely casual, relatively speaking.

Yeah, that's how I was too. I remember unlocking Wolf and realizing that was all the characters there were. Very disappointed. But, that more or less had to do with how silly Sakurai decided to make most of the newcomers starter characters. And honestly, I've looked back in the archive, there were inklings that Brawl wasn't going to be like Melee even in the beginning. I guess people just didn't realize how MUCH different it would be at first at least. If THAT's what you're referring to.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Let's face it: power characters are going to have to use all the tools at their disposal. At the very least, we can force speed characters to have to do the same in order to manage any effectiveness.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

dude nobody cares who is on forum user #12823723728376's ignore list and it's pretentious to assume otherwise and post about it. how cool can it possibly make you feel anyways?

im sorry i will repent to buddha and return to mekka to pray for all of our sins amen

 

[Luigitoilet]

The day Namco said they were involved, I shed a tear of joy. Because I knew then, this might actually make me happy.



Yeah, that's how I was too. I remember unlocking Wolf and realizing that was all the characters there were. Very disappointed. But, that more or less had to do with how silly Sakurai decided to make most of the newcomers starter characters. And honestly, I've looked back in the archive, there were inklings that Brawl wasn't going to be like Melee even in the beginning. I guess people just didn't realize how MUCH different it would be at first at least. If THAT's what you're referring to.

See, I'm even more casual than that because I wouldn't have even noticed Brawl being "totally different" if I didn't constantly read about it. Hell if I noticed that I can't do combos and how floaty characters are and etc...the main things I noticed were
"holy **** I can't believe I can finally have Mario and Sonic duke it out, 7 year old me dreamed of this day",

"UGH the online is TERRIBLE"

"Why are there two Fox clones?"

"NO MEGAMAN!?!?"

see, just dumb surface stuff like that. SSB is more of a fun crazy game to me, more like the way Sakurai talks about it.

im sorry i will repent to buddha and return to mekka to pray for all of our sins amen

stop while you are behind