Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Cygnet]

What Twinkie said is still right in that (I think) our different mindsets are leading us to different outcomes.

Like I said earlier, there are 3 big factors to a game: player skill, character match-ups, and stage counterpicks.

The American decision to ban MK in order to increase diversity and reduce overcentralization, while also keeping a much more diverse stage list than Japan's shows that America strongly values characters and stages.

However, by doing so, it is harder for an American player to focus on the third factor: player skill. There are so many more variables in a match than just player skill like match-ups and counterpicks.

The simplified Japanese ruleset eliminates counterpicks, and their choice to keep MK (resulting in an undeniable degree of centralization, not necessarily overcentralization) means that they've gotten rid of enough confounding variables to really focus on player skill, which is why, evident (or I would say so) by Apex results, their players are better without taking into consideration stage and character.

So really, the culture clash does reveal two different paths, neither one necessarily better than the other. It just depends on what you value more. I would argue that, in order to make Brawl as competitive as possible, the Japanese ruleset, either (or both) the MK unban or the limiting of stages is necessary.

While they may be less versed in the way of odd mid or low-tier matchups or strange stages, their ability to overcome that at Apex shows that maybe player skill and character mastery (after all, you can spread your focus and play a bunch of characters to cover their bad MUs.... or just MK and learn him super well in and out) can surpass the effect that stages have on play.

But ultimately, what is best for us as a community to focus on?

 

[Cassio]

Also I wouldnt consider the apex ruleset to be drastic surgical nerfs and heavy stage elimination.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Otori did very little running away and camping and still beat him, so even with Japan's MK restricting ruleset, that set would have went practically the same.

Otori CPed Frigate

 

[zmx]

And just to repeat the point to make it clear:

Using a more conservative stage list won't just serve to unban MK. It could potentially help make the NA community better in terms of skill as a whole.


ATT:Jebus

Nietono beat Ally on Frigate. I highly doubt CPing that made much of a difference. Only the first transformation seems bad for Olimar tbh. Besides the set count was 3-1. It's not like it was a game 5 CP.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

ATT:Jebus

Nietono beat Ally on Frigate. I highly doubt CPing that made much of a difference. Only the first transformation seems bad for Olimar tbh. Besides the set count was 3-1. It's not like it was a game 5 CP.

What does that have to do with anything? They are two different players. Anyway, my point is that this wouldn't have happened with the Japanese rule set (Otori CPing Frigate)

 

[Bizkit047]

That may very well be the case. However keep in mind that Kakera stated his MK also loses to Ocean's ROB. Hence why he goes/went Ice Climbers against him.

So perhaps Ocean is a little better at the MU in general than we're giving him credit for.

He's definitely amazing at the MK MU for using a character that is supposed to get completely bodied by MK, but I was just clearing that up because many people are thinking just because M2K loses to a random character that all our MKs do. M2K tends to be notorious for losing to people in MUs he has very little experience with or does not want to learn correctly.

You clearly haven't been reading since the beginning. Because that's been the argument all along. Unban MK and get rid of the most polarizing stages. Oh and lower the LGL even more if need be.

And my point was that it's not that simple. You need to do more. Remember how M2K times out via going under the stage constantly and such? I'm not talking about Brinstar or RC either, I'm talking about stages like Smashville. The Japan ruleset has rules added to limit that. So I'm just reiterating what John#'s said that just simply unbanning MK with 3-5 legal stages and a small LGL wouldn't quite solve all the problems.

Otori CPed Frigate

IIRC he still won 3-1. I think he only lost on YI.

Also I wouldnt consider the apex ruleset to be drastic surgical nerfs and heavy stage elimination.

Wasn't what I was implying anyway.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

IIRC he still won 3-1.

With the help of Frigate

 

[Cassio]

Why would anyone assume that our MK's wouldnt lose to ocean? Your statements are loaded with references to our own metagame after japan just came and bodied us. Since none of our other MKs played ocean to my knowledge its BS to assume they would win. Right now the only information we have is that ocean beat m2k, everything else is silly presumptions with implications of "MKdabessofcoursehewouldwin" and no weight behind them.

Also many of Americas best MKs were in attendance, many did play gay (including m2k vs ocean from what I heard), and yet we didnt win. Guess our MKs suck at being gay.

Wasn't what I was implying anyway.

The Japanese won with the apex ruleset.

 

[Delta-cod]

As far as conservative stagelists go, I think the Apex stagelist is good for competition. As a community we really need to PRACTICE on Japan's stagelist, though.

 

[Cygnet]

Remember how M2K times out via going under the stage constantly and such? I'm not talking about Brinstar or RC either, I'm talking about stages like Smashville. The Japan ruleset has rules added to limit that.

What are these rules? (Not doubting that they exist, just wondering what they are and why we don't use these rules similarly..... unless we do.)

@Jebus: Winning 3-1 means that, even if he did CP Frigate, that only accounts for one out of his 3 wins. He didn't win 3-2, so the set was not decided by Frigate, it was just one game out of the set. If that game were removed, he would still have a large shot at winning the set without the help of Frigate.

EDIT: Agreed with Delta-cod. Smaller stagelists mean it's easier to focus on just playing and not having to worry about weird stage things so it's easier to learn.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

@Jebus: Winning 3-1 means that, even if he did CP Frigate, that only accounts for one out of his 3 wins. He didn't win 3-2, so the set was not decided by Frigate, it was just one game out of the set. If that game were removed, he would still have a large shot at winning the set without the help of Frigate.

All I am trying to say is that this would not have happened with the Japanese rule set (cping frigate). It did change the results since we don't know what would have happened if he didn't win on that stage. Otori did choose that stage over any other stage he would have chosen in Japan for a reason

 

[Bizkit047]

Why would anyone assume that our MK's wouldnt lose to ocean? Your statements are loaded with references to our own metagame after japan just came and bodied us. Since none of our other MKs played ocean to my knowledge its BS to assume they would win. Right now the only information we have is that ocean beat m2k, everything else is silly presumptions with loaded implications with no weight behind them.

Because M2K himself admitted he doesn't know the MU. And unlike most people that would blindly assume otherwise, I actually watched the set. And M2K played extremely stupid and wrong for that MU. It would be sort of dumb to believe that our other top MKs that actually know the MU (are you forgetting about Ally and how his bro mains ROB?) would all lose too. Or even the scarier thought that people will claim the MU is even or in ROBs favor just because M2K loses a set to one (Pikachu MU anyone?).

All I am trying to say is that this would not have happened with the Japanese rule set (cping frigate). It did change the results since we don't know what would have happened if he didn't win on that stage. Otori did choose that stage over any other stage he would have chosen in Japan for a reason

Probably the dumbest argument ever. He still had to win on at least one of Nietono's CPs on top of game 1, and he did. He only lost one game, on YI IIRC. That's like saying "Well if it was a best of 7 set, Nietono might have won because they'd have had to play more games and Nietono would maybe win"

 

[Judo777]

I was....... once again (second year in a row that is) spending the evening watching the stream yelling at my computer screen at players not fighting against Olimar properly. Otori started doing the correct things pretty quickly (he's obviously a fast adapter). I swear people act like (especially MK) you need to act and go for hard reads and commit to beat Olimar when in reality he is the one that has to act all the freaking time.

What Otori did that one him the game.

1. Dtilt Olimar, then wait for Olimar to do something because he has to, punish accordingly.
2. Throw Olimar in the air and NOT freaking SL immediately (tho he did sometimes), instead uair him all day being in able to super armor consecutive uairs, and wait for a whistle THEN SL.
3. NOT SLing Olimar as your primary means of edge guarding. Instead he threw out just dairs and nairs that way he wasn't ever commiting to anything, he could just sit their thowing aerials waiting for Nietono to do something, I was getting so pissed at seeing MK's throw out SLs hoping he didn't super armor it (which he did all day), instead Otori didn't hope and just did something safe.

I also cringe everytime i see an MK tornado at an Olimar hoping to dislodge him from the ground when that will almost never work.

This isn't directed at people but I was pretty disappointed with the Olimar related matches I watched.

Also this isn't super related to the topic but theses were my thought on Apex lol.

 

[Bizkit047]

I also cringe everytime i see an MK tornado at an Olimar hoping to dislodge him from the ground when that will almost never work.

It DOES tend to shield poke Olimar a lot actually, but the problem is if it doesn't, you get Usmashed/Dsmashed. So if for the first half of nado Olimar doesn't look like he's going to get launched, you probably should retreat it fast as possible to avoid a heavy punish or punish at all.

 

[Judo777]

It DOES tend to shield poke Olimar a lot actually, but the problem is if it doesn't, you get Usmashed/Dsmashed. So if for the first half of nado Olimar doesn't look like he's going to get launched, you probably should retreat it fast as possible to avoid a heavy punish or punish at all.

I was under the impression that Olimar is one of the hardest characters in the game to shield poke (Hilt actually claimed it was harder than shield poking diddy). I have also on many occasions witnessed Olimars get their shield broken by nado.

 

[Asa]

harder to shield poke than diddy loool

 

[Cassio]

Because M2K himself admitted he doesn't know the MU. And unlike most people that would blindly assume otherwise, I actually watched the set. And M2K played extremely stupid and wrong for that MU. It would be sort of dumb to believe that our other top MKs that actually know the MU (are you forgetting about Ally and how his bro mains ROB?) would all lose too.

Point out the portion of my post where I claimed they would lose. I said it was ignorant to automatically assume they would win and chalk it up to MU knowledge, and the only results we have is that m2k lost to ocean. You know who else knew a MU really well and still lost? Larry vs Nietono. You know how many mid tiers m2k has lost to? 1: ROB. You know how many non-top tiers m2ks lost to? 2: Lucario who is on the edge of top tier + ROB. Does something seem out of the ordinary here? MU knowledge is a popular argument (and john) of ignorance for those who love to claim how an MK (or other characters) "should" win before he does.

Or even the scarier thought that people will claim the MU is even or in ROBs favor just because M2K loses a set to one (Pikachu MU anyone?).

Who was claiming this? And who said pika was based off of one set? Youre incorrect about both those points and setting up those sorts of strawmen is kind of insulting.

 

[Bizkit047]

Point out the portion of my post where I claimed they would lose. I said it was ignorant to automatically assume they would win and chalk it up to MU knowledge, and the only results we have is that m2k lost to ocean. You know who else knew a MU really well and still lost? Larry vs Nietono. You know how many mid tiers m2ks lost to? 1: ROB. You know how many non-top tiers m2ks lost to? 2: Lucario who is on the edge of top tier + ROB. Does something seem out of the ordinary here? MU knowledge is a popular argument (and john) of ignorance for those who love to claim how an MK "should" win before he does.

I said "I'm pretty confident some of our other top MKs that actually know the MU could take him out." I didn't say "Yea Ally would 3 stock him, Ocean is bad." Just pointing out it's pretty clear that lack of MU knowledge hurt M2K greatly against Ocean. As in the past, M2K always seems to lose in MUs he does not know well. Remember when he used to lose to Diddy and everyone was like "Awesome Diddy is like an MK counter now!" Yea, that's really annoying and why it's dumb that everyone seems to base MUs off of M2K winning or losing.

Who was claiming this? And who said pika was based off of one set? Youre incorrect about both those points and setting up those sorts of strawmen is kind of insulting.

Then I'm confused as to how the MU Chart decided Pika/MK is an even MU when there is only one top level Pikachu player that beat M2K once recently and all of a sudden it's an even MU.

 

[Deleted member]

The Pikas were really hard to argue with in the panels, apparently. They won't budge on MU numbers, so 0 vs MK isn't surprising.

 

[Cassio]

Its been an even MU for two MU charts. Ausphere that was pretty immature, should I criticize other panels when things dont go the way I expect?

Yes a lack of MU knowledge will hurt anyone in a MU. However this wasnt diddy kong this was ROB. Theres a lot of factors that can go into losing a set besides MU knowledge, and with this set in particular and given the greater context of Apex theres no clarity if MU knowledge would make up the gap for other MKs. Not that people arent allowed to guess and have their opinions, but opinions are not conclusive and shouldnt be treated that way.

I feel like MU knowledge is too frequently the scapegoat for MK losses, so it starts to lose weight when I see it. (<personal opinion)

 

[Deleted member]

You've been calling a lot of people arguing against you immature, or "insulting" Cassio. It's getting old.

 

[Bizkit047]

Lmao wtf, why are you so touchy over nothing? That's like someone going "The URC isn't always perfect" and me going "WELL **** YOU IDIOT".

 

[Deleted member]

Let's at least maintain a civil conversation.

 

[Cassio]

haha! Ausphere Im not trying to make enemies. I know sometimes Im a bit abrasive with language or passionate and on occasion go overboard, but I dont have a problem with you. I was mostly criticizing your statement.

 

[Deleted member]

My last post was more on Bizkit's statement concerning civility. :/

And it's "Auspher". Don't know where you're dragging out that extra "e" from.

Edit: Also, I don't know how hard the MK mains argued for that MU, so I can't speak for their panel. Just going off of what I heard from Stealth.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

MK's gotta stop counterpicking frigate vs Olimar. Purples. Purples everywhere.

 

[Deleted member]

The risk far outweighed the reward. MK only is going to do okay on the first transformation, anyway.

 

[Bizkit047]

MK's gotta stop counterpicking frigate vs Olimar. Purples. Purples everywhere.

That depends if you know how to deal with purples, like Otori apparently did. Ally forgot that there are more purples on Frigate when he CPed it.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

That depends if you know how to deal with purples, like Otori apparently did. Ally forgot that there are more purples on Frigate when he CPed it.

I'll be honest. A lot of the matches went over my head they were so complex. Did you catch how those purples were dealt with? I didn't... I was mesmerized!

 

[Bizkit047]

Nah, don't remember. I'll have to wait until it's uploaded.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Nah, don't remember. I'll have to wait until it's uploaded.

I'm hyped. Those matches and Winner's Finals are my favorite.

Also, if you get the time, around page 12 I made a post about some of the learning psychology that may have gone into the Japanese' victory. I'd like to hear your opinion on it.

 

[Volt_Storm_7]

To argue about the past is childish. Your best bet is to train against that particular MU(s) and do your homework on Top players. You do your homework, you'd gone and researched recent videos of other Robs, mks, etc. to get an idea of what to look for and what not to do.

In the end, Research is knowledge. Knowledge is power.

おわり

 

[B.A.M.]

MK just took more than half of top 8 and 2 of top 3 at the biggest national...and somehow people think this is a case for him getting unbanned?

Just because the Japanese don't want to ban him (which we have always known) doesn't mean anything here in America where we, once again, have a tournament dominated by MK. We've always had a player or two break into things too - this isn't ESAM's first time in top 4 at a huge tournament, or an Olimar's first time doing work (Brood, Rich Brown, even Dabuz recently). Nothing's changed: if anything the argument for pro-ban is even stronger when you consider anti-ban's entire stance pre-tournament was "what will happen if MK loses?". MK didn't lose: he won and he dominated. Again.

HAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAH you're freakin hilarious AZ. So goofy. Nietono destroyed all our top players dude. Not just in tournament but in MM as well. He was ridiculous. This is Otori's FIRST time beating him out for a tournament like this. He usually loses. In fact he never even sees GF majority of the time due to Kyuubi and a couple others. Stop being so absurd. Nietono is on another level. Kyuubi is on another level. Otori is on another level. Also, games were ridiculously close in this tournament. No Free wins were given due to stages. I dont understand how that doesnt compute with you or anyone who states the stages are fine and they are pro ban. Why would you WANT to have stages that affect the outcome of opponent a v opponent b so strongly? Why would you want the victory to be determined at the stage select screen.

Seriously AZ, just stop posting things like this. Its flat out absurd you can stand here and say this tournament didnt change a thing, or at least make people more aware that there is a problem in the American Metagame and it aint MK. I mean M2k lost to Ocean and Rich Brown *****ed Jason shortly after. It is flat out embarrassing how much people complained about some strong MK tactics that the Japanese used simple *** options to cover, like Nietonos FH> DJ (if needed) fairs to Nado spacing. Or even Larry when he began to zone out Otori, allowing him to dictate the pace of the game very well against a MK that is looking like the best America has seen.

Nairo played amazing; dont you sit here and take that away from him. That ish freakin pisses me off. How can you discount his skill like that? And while youre discussing Nairo, you should talk about the fact that Havok's Snake was going toe to toe with him, something that was quite COMMON in this entire tournament. Everything was down to the wire; without some stupid crutch given by RC and Brinstar.

First you push for some blatantly fake 'unanimous' vote for MK ban. Then everyone in this committee gives lackluster reasons as to why he should be banned using data they cant even read correctly ( which is something I would harp on John #s for but seriously thats just the URCs fault). Then when we have Apex 2012; the closest Brawl has been to a truly International Level Tournament, you come in and disclaim everything that transpired. Did you even watch anything? Or did you just continue dreaming about returning to MLG and pushing an agenda?

Iono how many times Im going to say this to you, but dammit man I am appreciative of what you've done for the community. But on the other side of the coin you are damn shady as hell. I cant come to terms with you being dumb enough to believe what you are saying makes sense. So Im going to infer you are doing this all with some ulterior motive in my mind. Which saddens me because theres really other ways to go about aiding the community than BS bans.

 

[Bizkit047]

I'm hyped. Those matches and Winner's Finals are my favorite.

Also, if you get the time, around page 12 I made a post about some of the learning psychology that may have gone into the Japanese' victory. I'd like to hear your opinion on it.

Just read it. Your theory is true and makes perfect sense, however you need to note what us smashers do every time we play friendlies. This does not apply to all of us, but many of us try to learn from friendlies. And guess how we tend to learn, stage wise. By randoming FD/SV/BF most of the time. How many people play friendlies with all the legal stages enabled on Random? Does not happen often. Obviously there is sandbagging involved quite often, but like I said, does not apply to all of us.

So in one way, we do just that, since a majority of us playing is from friendlies and not tourney matches or even MMs.

 

[B.A.M.]

I got bored about about page 10, but I have an interesting point to bring up.

Did anyone else find it curious that Japan managed to adjust to stages that they do not see regularly in tournament? Oh sure they probably put some practice in on each, but we've got years on them, so going to Frigate should be the best idea ever, right? Right? (Not against Olimar it's not... lol purples).

If you guys didn't already know, I do a bit of education research and that involves some cognitive psychology. I'll probably mix up my terms here and there, but the point that follows still stands:

We should adapt Japan's stage list. If we do so, our skill on stages outside the big 3 will improve.

Wait... so not playing on the stages will make us better... right? Yes. People learn better under truncated (simplified) conditions. In chemistry, you learn the Bohr model of the atom (electrons like planets) before you learn about proper orbitals. In Smash, a smaller stage set will allow players to concentrate more on the skills required to control your character as opposed to the gimmicks present on a moving stage. When the movement, damage, and gimmick factors are removed, we will be forced to face the problems that we try to avoid via these stage traits. They will be slowly overcome through perseverance and training.

This will work because with less factors to consider, you will be within the zone of proximital development. This is a term that is used to describe the range of cognitive stress one can survive under when learning. If I play a set with M2K (and I have. And I got whopped), I won't learn much because everything is going WAY TOO FAST. This means that the match itself is outside my zone of proximital development.

The concept works with stage gimicks too. If I have to consider whatever it is M2K is doing to me AND all the funny tricks that are present in playing a match on Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise, then I have even less of a chance of learning something significant. So I have to reduce the 'stress' on my brain.

The correct response to this problem is a simplified system

In the end, I believe that the implementation a Japanese stage set (BF, FD, SV) will greatly benefit our community via the simplification of our competitive system. Do this, and our character control and knowledge will rise to the challenge when the Japanese decide to fly their very best over to hand us our egos on a silver platter once again.

Tuen, I have been saying this from Day 1. You should want to test interactions between opponent a vs opponent b. While the stage can have a factor, it shouldnt be overbearing. But due to the fact that majority of this community doesnt know crap about fighting games; they think theyre playing a pseudo platformer and want dumb transitions and crap. Which just degenerates play. The less stage involvement, better we can get at the actual challenge; the opposition. its freakin stupid that 98% of our community is freakin clueless on these matters. I mean you got high level players like CO babbling nonsense on these boards with debate skills from Critical Thinking 030 course. Flat out dumb.

@ Bizkit: You are definitely right about that, I know a ton of people only practice with probably 4-5 stages which is another thing that I find hilarious. Especially cuz people want their stages so bad.

@ Tuen: You always gotta be on point and kill the purples. DSF said it best " You have to realize the tier list of Pikimin; you're not trying to mess with top tier later on."

Larry talks about that too.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Just read it. Your theory is true and makes perfect sense, however you need to note what us smashers do every time we play friendlies. This does not apply to all of us, but many of us try to learn from friendlies. And guess how we tend to learn, stage wise. By randoming FD/SV/BF most of the time. How many people play friendlies with all the legal stages enabled on Random? Does not happen often. Obviously there is sandbagging involved quite often, but like I said, does not apply to all of us.

So in one way, we do just that, since a majority of us playing is from friendlies and not tourney matches or even MMs.

I'm not so sure. What follows is anecdotal and is definitely not generalizable (I kinda which more people would admit that...)

Anyways, in Oregon, we've got the likes of t0mmy, who doesn't even always play serious in tournament. Friendlies see a massive array of joke character switches. Another interesting contradiction is the stage list statement. I've always played friendlies on all legal stages. Whatever "legal stages" mean at the time. So there's my piece of anecdotal evidence...

I think we could stand to figure out how to produce game-winning drive in America. The Japanese can do that on honor alone. Free-to-play single elimination events only? America's all about the money. If we could just figure out how to get people at their controllers every day, we'd look so much differently. Sure there'd be weeks and even months you'd have to slam your face into a skill plateau, but it'd be healthier for competition in general.

In the end, Research is knowledge. Knowledge is power.

As a PhD student, I approve this message. Trust me, I'm almost a Doctor.

ha ha.

 

[Browny]

Lol @ this fail thread.

Are people seriously unable to differentiate between MKs legality on certain stages, and the ACTUAL problem, which is far too many people using him as the easy way to free money, absolutely flooding the scene with MK and pulling out bull**** CP stages to try and win some cash?

If MK was 10x better than the next best character or 1.01x better, he would be *****d the same and people would use him to counter every matchup, regardless of how much it is in his favour. The problem is and always has been, peoples approach to 'competition' in which they will do everything to maximise every 1% chance they have of winning which might be all it takes, to main MK.

But hey, if you guys enjoy seeing MK dittos non stop on stream and facing the same stock-standard ban/counterpick scenario every match to prevent MK's getting a huge advantage on you, go ahead. Dont know why youre so keen to make the game **** for yourself. Clearly your obsession with being the best at competition, meant **** all vs people who dont play for money and use a variety of characters, so go figure that one out lol.

Heres me hoping the URC will have some guts and stick to their guns, a last-minute cry of desperation from anti-ban was inevitable, dont let it break your resolve now.

--

Seriously, I can not comprehend what the problem with a temporary ban is. What the hell is the harm in trialling it? Whats the worst thats gonna happen, mk mains wont be able to afford a new video game for a month? seriously -_-

 

[z00ted]

If anything, this tournament made me more pro-ban.

I don't understand why anyone would consider one tournament to matter so much over the course of the past three years.

 

[Omni]

Yea. It's just a national. Showing us twice in a row that Japan can best us with two different Olimar's, an MK, and somehow keep our huge Top 3 contenders out of that range.

Nothing special about that. Derp.

And can you guys please stop johning for M2K. Everyone new Ocean was coming in advance. He had time to prepare just like the Japanese had time to prepare for Esam, Marths, Diddy, etc.

You don't see any of the Japanese losing to random midtiers.

 

[Conviction]

Mod double posting?