Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Orion*]

With this said, considering they play on 3 stages, Mks dominance as a result will be different than if they used counter picking stages therefore their opinions on MK dominance will be different and cant really be used as a basis for our decisions.

First off.... your source for information is a smashboards post.... that is extremely general and off topic to this current discussion.

Second, most tournaments dont have CPs. However, there have DEFINITELY been matches with stages like delfino, haldberd ect legal and they are easily available to see on youtube.

And most importantly

Just because they don't use those stages in tournaments regularly doesn't mean they don't understand them. They clearly where good on the stages, and could cleanly control everything and have perfect control and balance while doing so. In fact, in many case just as much if not moreso than the american players (Considering the fact that they also bodied us on them regardless).

Nietonos POCKET metaknight is better on delfino than almost every US mk i've cped there bar like m2k/shadow

 

[~ Gheb ~]

-dead- @ Orion's sig.

 

[CO18]

First off.... your source for information is a smashboards post.... that is extremely general and off topic to this current discussion.

Second, most tournaments dont have CPs. However, there have DEFINITELY been matches with stages like delfino, haldberd ect legal and they are easily available to see on youtube.

And most importantly

Just because they don't use those stages in tournaments regularly doesn't mean they don't understand them. They clearly where good on the stages, and could cleanly control everything and have perfect control and balance while doing so. In fact, in many case just as much if not moreso than the american players (Considering the fact that they also bodied us on them regardless).

Nietonos POCKET metaknight is better on delfino than almost every US mk i've cped there bar like m2k/shadow

Them being better at the game is irrelevant, Ive already said I believe they're better that just doesnt matter. If They dont use CPs in tournaments regularly then their Mk results will be different. That is all Im saying. Their opinion on Mk should not be used as a basis for our own because we use counterpicks in our rule system and apparently since I was mistaken a bit but it still doesnt matter they usually dont.

 

[Cassio]

CO why are you arguing with such little information or presentable evidence. Its getting a bit ridiculous now.

This is the sort of ignorance and naivety that allowed us to assume we were better than Japan in the first place.

No one is saying we should overturn the ban based on just Apex, and theres plenty of other scenarios aside from definitive legalization/hard ban for the rest of brawls life. The fact is Apex provides us with a new window through which we can view and evaluate our metagame, and the willingness of some people to just toss that aside is crazy.

 

[Orion*]

Why shouldn't their opinion be used?

I clearly stated reasons why in contrast to yours and now essentially you just said that their opinion doesn't matter... because?

Not even trying to rag on you but that wasn't clear at all. And my post wasn't even relative to game skill but moreso of understanding. If their top players can cleanly understand and execute on these stages, then they clearly understand them. It's not like they disregard these stages entirely, especially considering the fact that they practiced on them.

 

[KillLock]

I think the Japan ruleset is too good. If anything they've proven that sticking with stages that put your necessary skills to the test are much more beneficial in the long run than having stages that force you to use tactics that would otherwise not score you a win in a head to head confrontation. True they played elegantly on counterpicks at Apex and obviously have experience on these stages but at the same time they probably weren't playing on these stages in a serious setting. Which leads me to believe that just being the more broadened/experienced player lead them to victory in such cases.

Otori scoring the win here at Apex forces me to assume that having the ability to counterpick was beneficial for his 1st place win at this event, where normally he has never won a Japanese tournament.

 

[CO18]

CO why are you arguing with such little information or presentable evidence. Its getting a bit ridiculous now.

This is the sort of ignorance and naivety that allowed us to assume we were better than Japan in the first place.

Rofl you literally make no sense. What evidence do I need?

We generally play with CPs which favor metaknight. They dont. Anyone with a brain knows it is much easier to fight Mk with Falco,Diddy,ICs,Fox etc on FD then it is to fight him on brinstar or Delfino.

We use a different ruleset. The idea that "they're better at this game, they think think mk shouldnt be banned so maybe we're wrong and just suck" simply doesn't apply.
EVEN if they did consistently use CPs and dominated mks, I still personally wouldnt use that as a reason to unban him but it doesnt matter because they dont.

Mk is aided with the stage CP system, you're lying to yourself if you try to say it doesnt. We cant compare MK dominace in our regions as basis for a ban because our regions dont use the same rules.

edit: Im sure they do understand and are good at using cps, they still choose not to use them though which effects mk dominance, saying it doesnt as I said just means you're lying to yourself.

 

[Orion*]

EVEN if they did consistently use CPs and dominated mks, I still personally wouldnt use that as a reason to unban him but it doesnt matter because they dont.

in other words you're being a saltmonster DDD main LMAO

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I got bored about about page 10, but I have an interesting point to bring up.

Did anyone else find it curious that Japan managed to adjust to stages that they do not see regularly in tournament? Oh sure they probably put some practice in on each, but we've got years on them, so going to Frigate should be the best idea ever, right? Right? (Not against Olimar it's not... lol purples).

If you guys didn't already know, I do a bit of education research and that involves some cognitive psychology. I'll probably mix up my terms here and there, but the point that follows still stands:

We should adapt Japan's stage list. If we do so, our skill on stages outside the big 3 will improve.

Wait... so not playing on the stages will make us better... right? Yes. People learn better under truncated (simplified) conditions. In chemistry, you learn the Bohr model of the atom (electrons like planets) before you learn about proper orbitals. In Smash, a smaller stage set will allow players to concentrate more on the skills required to control your character as opposed to the gimmicks present on a moving stage. When the movement, damage, and gimmick factors are removed, we will be forced to face the problems that we try to avoid via these stage traits. They will be slowly overcome through perseverance and training.

This will work because with less factors to consider, you will be within the zone of proximital development. This is a term that is used to describe the range of cognitive stress one can survive under when learning. If I play a set with M2K (and I have. And I got whopped), I won't learn much because everything is going WAY TOO FAST. This means that the match itself is outside my zone of proximital development.

The concept works with stage gimicks too. If I have to consider whatever it is M2K is doing to me AND all the funny tricks that are present in playing a match on Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise, then I have even less of a chance of learning something significant. So I have to reduce the 'stress' on my brain.

The correct response to this problem is a simplified system

In the end, I believe that the implementation a Japanese stage set (BF, FD, SV) will greatly benefit our community via the simplification of our competitive system. Do this, and our character control and knowledge will rise to the challenge when the Japanese decide to fly their very best over to hand us our egos on a silver platter once again.

 

[CO18]

in other words you're being a saltmonster DDD main LMAO

In other words, Ive beaten like 85% of the top mks I played when I did play and you're an idiot rofl.

90% of my losses came from other random *** characters that I never practiced against and Esam

I also dont play anymore because Im busy with more important things so I could care less.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

Then why are you here?

 

[Cassio]

CO I was referring to you constantly being corrected about japanese stuff.

Youre seriously overstating the affects of stages for most characters. I was kind of thinking the same thing as orion, it sounds like the perspective of a DDD main moreson than the cast as a whole. It certainly didnt hinder the japanese in dominating us.

Interesting post tuen.

 

[infiniteV115]

Somebody asked about how Otori vs ESAM went, I forget who.
Here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MYsv_ZIdLw

Credits to M@v, it's his video, he recorded it, not mine, blah blah blah.

 

[CO18]

Then why are you here?

because I have some free time?


How am I overstating the effects of CPs lol?
There is a significant difference between fighting Mk on the likes of delfino/RC/brinstar etc than on a neutral for many characters.

And CPs not effecting Japan doesn't relate to the effect it has on characters fighting MK. Yet still their mk who had never won in their region before performed the best out of their representatives.
I never said the Japanese are worse on CPs because they dont use them. It doesnt take much time to learn stages and Im sure they've still played around on them at some points and they also prepared for the tournament so I wouldnt expect them to place worse than they would otherwise.

 

[BSP]

Wait... so not playing on the stages will make us better... right? Yes. People learn better under truncated (simplified) conditions. In chemistry, you learn the Bohr model of the atom (electrons like planets) before you learn about proper orbitals. In Smash, a smaller stage set will allow use to concentrate more on the skills required to control your character as opposed to the gimmicks present on a moving stage. When the movement, damage, and gimmick factors are removed, we will be forced to face the problems that we try to avoid via these stage traits. They will be slowly overcome through perseverance and training.

I agree with this.


Like I said in the Tier list thread, if we spend less time worrying about how we're going to handle some janky CP, and instead focused on bringing out the best in our characters, we'd be better. I'm sure no one will disagree that the Japanese proved they had a better understanding of the game.

When you take out someone's autowin on Brinstar (MK legal) and Timeout on RC or Delfino, they have to get better with their character and have to rely less on gimmicks to get the win.

I really hate to go conservative, because I love stages just as much as the next guy, but I think it's holding us back.

I don't think FD, BF, and SV is the only option though. We just need to get rid of stages that present us with tactics that can give us the win on X stage, but not anywhere else, because these give players an easier way out, and lessens the need to actually improve.

All of our starters right now are fine. Maybe add Frigate and Halberd and you've got a list that doesn't give any autowin gimmicks or prmote excessive camping imo.

 

[Cygnet]

I'm almost certainly not at all qualified to speak on this matter, but I agree with Tuen's post above.

There are 3 factors that determine the outcome of a match: (I might be missing something important...?)

- Player skill
- Character choice (match-ups)
- Stage choice (counterpicks)

We (the US) are pretty big on all 3. However, Japan's limited stage list means that their games are only dependent upon player skill and character choice, and assuming that their character choice breakdown is similar to ours (it may not be, but I.... think it's more centralized on MK/ICs/Diddy/Falco/etc.?), then that means that Japan can devote much more of their efforts towards player skill, which, arguably, is the biggest factor.

I think a Japanese ruleset will help us advance our community's player skill as a whole a lot faster than our current ruleset because we are removing other variables. (Maybe a lot of MK actually increases player skill for the same reason? I think so.)

While there is certainly the indelible desire for increased diversity with characters and stages, that might actually be what's holding us back.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I forgot to talk about transfer...

It's the phenomena of applying previously attained knowledge to new conditions. Once players attain mastery of the big 3 stages, they'll be capable of utilizing their skills on other stages. A good example is the level of play displayed by Japanese MK's on Frigate. Did anyone else notice that they applied their BF/SV platform cancelling techniques to the part 1 transformation? It was pretty impressive, and fairly instrumental to their victories. The same could be said for their Olimars on Frigate and Yoshi's Island with respect to their use of platforms to limit overhead options.

When a high enough level of mastery is attained, transfer of skills to other environments becomes readily accessible. This set of high level movement skills will trump most stage gimmicks... but they are overshadowed by said gimmicks when everything is thrown into the mix at once. So my previous point is finally wrapped up here:

Mastering character skills and stage control skills on the big 3 will extend to play on other stages. Our stage skills will not diminish with a change in the rule set.

 

[Cassio]

Actually I saw that too, thats an interesting point. It seemed like between BF and SV everything could transfer to most other legal stages, and they were played in a way Id never seen them played before.

I wasnt really too big a fan of such a small stage list but thats a very good point.

 

[BSP]

I agree, but I don't think big 3 is necessary. I think we just need to remove stages that give players a powerful tactic, be it walkoffs, timeouts, sharking, etc. to win that isn't present on the big 3...or most legal stages for that matter.

Something like...

FD, SV, BF, Lylat, YI Brawl, and maybe PS1 and Frigate

Edit: With MK.........which is a large change just for one character.....

 

[zmx]

I couldn't agree more with what you guys are saying. Instead of relying on gimmicky stages like Brinstar and RC to win we should be focusing on getting better with our characters in general. I've always felt that any win on Brinstar and RC wasn't earned since you won more due to the stage rather than skill as a player. I was amazed by the level of control Otori had with his MK, I've seen nothing quite like it in the states.

The stages I think should be legal are FD, SV,BF, YI, Lylat, and possibly a few others. But no stage with walkoffs or anything of the sort. Basically any stage that's polarizing enough to allow you to win game 2 despite getting destroyed game 1 should probably be banned.

Edit:

In fact the current CP system discourages people to get better. We are so focused on choosing the right CP we never care to think about what actually matters in the long run: Learning how to adapt extremely quickly and getting better as a whole.

 

[zmx]

Or let me put it another way:

Often I saw the Japanese go right back to the stage they lost on. Many would consider this a "salty-runback" but that's not what I believe is going on.

Here's their mentality "hmmm I lost on this stage, let me figure out where I went wrong and I'll probably win".

Here's our mentality "hmmm I lost on this stage, I'm obviously God-like so it's clearly the stage's fault, let me choose another".

 

[ShadowLink84]

Or let me put it another way:

Often I saw the Japanese go right back to the stage they lost on. Many would consider this a "salty-runback" but that's not what I believe is going on.

Here's their mentality "hmmm I lost on this stage, let me figure out where I went wrong and I'll probably win".

Here's our mentality "hmmm I lost on this stage, I'm obviously God-like so it's clearly the stage's fault, let me choose another".

That is a terrible statement and that is not at all the mentality of it.
it is a conservative thought process.

"Hmm I lost on this stage, let me not risk going back there and instead choose a stage I know for sure I would have an advantage on."

Seriously, why the hell are you trying to make U.S. players sound terrible?
Let alone this goes for everyone in this thread.

For anti-ban. The hell? This has to be the most confusing argument made yet, and the ONLY ones who are getting it, are those who were staunchly anti-ban from the beginning.


You're essentially starting with an argument that is saying "MetaKnight placed the most at Apex, took two spots out of the three and thusly, he is possibly legal because those who won with him, keep him legal in their country."

The logic isn't faulty, BUT, it is a big big stretch.
The very first part of your argument regarding A Japanese Metaknight winning can also count against you, because in all your argument about what the Japanese winning, you're shoving right past the fact that it was done utilizing Metaknight.

Let alone the entire thing about the Japanese having a more advanced metagame is extremely faulty.

Why?

Let us say M2K and Omni play against each other.
Omni lives on Neptune. M2K lives on Mars.
They meet on Venus, play against each other, and Omni wins.

They go back to their planets, they meet a year later, and guess what will happen?
Omni will probably win.

Why? M2K is at a skill disadvantage. Simple as that, and because he does not play against Omni, he cannot pick up on any habits or behavior to take advantage and advance his own gameplay.

So outside of M2K making a great leap in skill, which is extremely difficult as he is one of the best in Brawl, he will probably lose to Omni again. This will probably occur again as well each time they meet each year.

This is why you simply cannot create such an argument based off this one tournament.
There are far, far too many variables that cannot be accounted for simply because of the fact it is one tournament.

You can't argue against them either because it will always be pointed out how you lack enough evidence to support your claim, which is why this entire topic goes in one big *** circle.
You can't support your argument, but they cannot disprove yours either.

So what do we do? We stick with status quo.

Oh and how the hell did everyone forget his ledge grab bull **** in all this nonsense? That is something that was NEVER, EVER, solved.

 

[Sorto]

That is a terrible statement and that is not at all the mentality of it.
it is a conservative thought process.

"Hmm I lost on this stage, let me not risk going back there and instead choose a stage I know for sure I would have an advantage on."

Seriously, why the hell are you trying to make U.S. players sound terrible?
Let alone this goes for everyone in this thread.

For anti-ban. The hell? This has to be the most confusing argument made yet, and the ONLY ones who are getting it, are those who were staunchly anti-ban from the beginning.


You're essentially starting with an argument that is saying "MetaKnight placed the most at Apex, took two spots out of the three and thusly, he is possibly legal because those who won with him, keep him legal in their country."

The logic isn't faulty, BUT, it is a big big stretch.
The very first part of your argument regarding A Japanese Metaknight winning can also count against you, because in all your argument about what the Japanese winning, you're shoving right past the fact that it was done utilizing Metaknight.

Let alone the entire thing about the Japanese having a more advanced metagame is extremely faulty.

Why?

Let us say M2K and Omni play against each other.
Omni lives on Neptune. M2K lives on Mars.
They meet on Venus, play against each other, and Omni wins.

They go back to their planets, they meet a year later, and guess what will happen?
Omni will probably win.

Why? M2K is at a skill disadvantage. Simple as that, and because he does not play against Omni, he cannot pick up on any habits or behavior to take advantage and advance his own gameplay.

So outside of M2K making a great leap in skill, which is extremely difficult as he is one of the best in Brawl, he will probably lose to Omni again. This will probably occur again as well each time they meet each year.

This is why you simply cannot create such an argument based off this one tournament.
There are far, far too many variables that cannot be accounted for simply because of the fact it is one tournament.

You can't argue against them either because it will always be pointed out how you lack enough evidence to support your claim, which is why this entire topic goes in one big *** circle.
You can't support your argument, but they cannot disprove yours either.

So what do we do? We stick with status quo.

Oh and how the hell did everyone forget his ledge grab bull **** in all this nonsense? That is something that was NEVER, EVER, solved.

The Anti Ban Logic is...

Japan has a more advanced or at the very least equally advanced metagame as compared to the U.S. (it is near impossible to argue that Japan has a less advanced metagame. They bring over a handful of top players and nab the top 2 spots and overwhemlingly beat some of our top top players).

Japan as a whole does not find MK to be a problem or banworthy.

It is my understanding that a character ban should be an almost last resort. In the past it had been argued that MK is being banned because no other realistic solution exists.

Japan with a greater or at the very least equal metagame made MK work and not be overpowered as a character.

Thus it is possible for MK to not be banworthy in a completely competitive metagame that is at or beyond our current level.

This would lead me to believe that a FAIR community would try to emulate this instead of jumping to a character ban.

Perhaps emulate/ work off of Japans ideas.
1) Longer Timer- Japan uses 10 min from my understanding. But U.S. could try 9 if they fear 10 would lengthen too many tournies.
2) Lower stage choices- Japan uses 3 from my understanding. But U.S. could try removing more questionable stages instead of jumping directly to 3.

This mixing of culture gives the community a chance to learn and grow an arguably more successful community.

I know japan only uses 3 stages and this may help limit MK play. But they came to America and beat MKs just as well on counterpicks. A reminder RC and Brin were banned at Apex. A stagelist less strict then theres but more strict then ours may be a reasonable idea to look into for starters.

 

[Sorto]

Rofl you literally make no sense. What evidence do I need?

We generally play with CPs which favor metaknight. They dont. Anyone with a brain knows it is much easier to fight Mk with Falco,Diddy,ICs,Fox etc on FD then it is to fight him on brinstar or Delfino.

We use a different ruleset. The idea that "they're better at this game, they think think mk shouldnt be banned so maybe we're wrong and just suck" simply doesn't apply.
EVEN if they did consistently use CPs and dominated mks, I still personally wouldnt use that as a reason to unban him but it doesnt matter because they dont.

Mk is aided with the stage CP system, you're lying to yourself if you try to say it doesnt. We cant compare MK dominace in our regions as basis for a ban because our regions dont use the same rules.

edit: Im sure they do understand and are good at using cps, they still choose not to use them though which effects mk dominance, saying it doesnt as I said just means you're lying to yourself.

Games can have a best character and that character not be banworthy.

It happens actually very often.

One very useful example is smash 64. Pikachu is the best character by a decent margin. He has unfair stages and is the all around best character. He has no losing matchups and in reality it is optimal to use him.

Sound familiar?

That doesnt make him banworthy it just makes him the best.

Being the best character <>(not equal) to being banworthy

If Japan had our ruleset and MK was not dominating and then they came here and outplayed us (using your concept not mine). That would be proof that MK is not overpowered. He would still be the best but a viable and competitive metagame could exist with him being legal. If you feel that would not be enough proof then you can never be won over and you are far too stuck in a one track mentality. Your not using logic to make your decision, you just have prematurely created and stuck to decisions. Your argument s equivalent to, I dont believe item x can exist. Then you go to japan and they show you item x. Then you go back to your country and say I still dont believe item x can exist. The proof that it exists there is proof enough that it does and can exist. This is a useless point, because this is not the case since they dont use our cp system. But still, I hope that you would keep an open mind if you wish to debate.

 

[John12346]

I'm just going to get one counterargument out of the way, because I'm still really tired from Apex right now. You guys already kinda drifted off this topic but I'll just get it out of the way so no one brings it up again.

Against the argument that "Legalizing MK and doing nothing else" is a good idea, the results of the one, and ONLY tournament that Japan held using Apex's ruleset seems to indicate otherwise(Since we're throwing "one tournament" arguments out there, I have as much right to use "the only Apex Ruleset tournament in Japan" as you guys have to use "Apex," so fair's fair).

It resulted in 6 MKs in the Top 8(and the Top 6), which is on par with or possibly even more dominance than what we've seen in the states, for sure.

From this, we can at least claim with reasonable rationale that the MK problem is NOT fixed under Apex's nor the Unity Ruleset's rulesets and stagelists, and should not be legal no matter which of these two rulesets is used. In other words, if, at some point, MK becomes legal again, the ruleset must restrict MK further than it used to back when he was legal, because it's obvious that MK still retains dominance - in USA or Japan - under a less MK-friendly ruleset, namely, Apex's, as well as the Unity Ruleset's.

Edit: Oh, and let's not forget that we'd be further restricting our rulesets solely because of MK, with the predominant change being the MK specific ledge grab limit. Altering the stagelist because of MK's existance would only further the other argument that "Anti-ban agrees that MK is too good for what America considers normal, unrestricted gameplay, so he/the ruleset must be limited to be kept in line with the rest of the cast." Remember that surgical nerfs are a VERY powerful ban criteria, so watch your footing from here on out.

I know this doesn't take down all of the arguments, but it still covers a point or two, and that's good enough for me for now. Carry on, the rest of you.

 

[Cassio]

holy cow this thread just tl;dr'd. Someone summarize the last 4 posts (or at least the ones before Johns).

 

[Orion*]

/ive never been so happy reading smashboards posts

 

[---]

I can't say much as I don't know much about the meta game, but watching all of the MK dittos going on during Apex was pretty boring.

So if banning him also makes the game more fun to play in general, that's all I need to know that the ban is jusitfied (at least in IMO).

 

[Orion*]

I can't say much as I don't know much about the meta game, but watching all of the MK dittos going on during Apex was pretty boring.

So if banning him also makes the game more fun to play in general, that's all I need to know that the ban is jusitfied (at least in IMO).

ban jiggs in melee also then plz LMAO

 

[infiniteV115]

Weird how Rain got 1st at that tournament (the one with top 6 all playing MK) when he never does well here. And Nairo doesn't usually outplace not only every MK but every non-Japanese player at tournaments he attends.

The Japanese ****ed up our results. I wouldn't be surprised to see them unlock some character with tentacles at Apex 2013.

 

[Orion*]

in comparison to the rain i played from apex 2010... this ***** has improved so much.

homie straight up bodied me. I think i could have beaten kakera, but jesus. rains a Monsterrrr

 

[WindMajor]

Oh and how the hell did everyone forget his ledge grab bull **** in all this nonsense? That is something that was NEVER, EVER, solved.

I was about to say that, ShadowLink.

I don't think Apex changed the fact that Metaknight still has two character-specific rules that nerf him (one nerfing the entire cast, some more than others). Adding a character-specific rule is exactly like saying that the character is unacceptable in his original form, and thus, deserves to be banned. The only difference is that instead of being banned, we changed the rules to make him more acceptable (even though the rules are still extremely flimsy).

I also think it's incredibly hard to compare the US metagame and the Japanese metagame by saying that one is farther ahead than the other. The reason is because in reality, we're not on the same track, but instead, on two different tracks. We play Brawl differently in America than the Japanese do in Japan. It makes sense that our metagames form differently. I think that we can definitely learn a couple of things from the Japanese (for example, adopt their mindset while playing), but arguments like, "9B and Nietono are the best and they're not even MK!" are hard to compare, because in order to make such a comparison, you would have to assume that we're playing the same game. We're not. It's reasonable to expect Olimar and ICs to be amazing in Japan since they play on a severely limited stage list. In America however, it's not the same.

There are also some things about the results that I'd like to comment on. Although the character icons aren't 100% guaranteed, I'll be using this as a reference: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13906148&postcount=973

So one of the things going on in this thread is that some people are skeptical as to whether MK is really that dominant, considering we have Nietono, ESAM, ADHD, and Razer in our Top 8. I was curious too, so I decided to look at the bracket. This is what I observed:

Spoiler

Illmatic
Nakat
Fatal
Nairo

-

DEHF
ADHD
Ally
ESAM
Nairo
Otori

False
Logic
Rain
Otori

-

Gnes
Razer
Kakera
Nietono

Mikeray
Tyrant
Razer

-

MikeHAZE
Brood
OCEAN
Nietono

Shadow
Rich Brown
ADHD
Ally

-

Rich Brown
ESAM

It's interesting to see that with the exception of Nietono, none of the non-MKs in the Top 8 had more than one win vs. Metaknight. ADHD played Tyrant, and Razer played Shadow. That's it. They advanced in the bracket fighting characters other than Metaknight, any other Metaknight that those three played against they lost to. On the subject of Nietono, even though he took out Ally and Nairo (in LF), he was still eliminated by two Metaknights (Nairo and Otori).

So these non-MK players getting Top 8, it's not so much that they're such champions of their character that MK couldn't beat them, it's more that they didn't really run into that many Metaknights in the first place, so pulling a conclusion out of them is really hard to tell.

Also, on the note of Apex not being a big enough sample-size, I agree. There were a lot of matches that could've happened, but didn't due to how stacked the tournament was. It would've been nice to see players like ADHD, Gnes, Rich Brown, Tyrant, Atomsk, Razer, Anti, or even MikeHAZE play against Otori and Nietono, but those matches didn't happen (and if they did, then I never saw them). There were so many upsets in America vs. America matches that Americans ended up eliminating each other, leaving only a few of the worthwhile mains against Japan's tops. For example, Rich Brown had a great streak against MK (beat JTails, Holy, vVv Zero, and Mew2King, only to get knocked out by Razer twice. Seeing him vs Kakera or Otori would've been interesting at the very least. Then we have Razer who lost to Ally (technically Canadian) and ESAM, but beat RB twice. It would be interesting to see how well Razer does against Nietono. On top of that, we have Anti who forfeit in pools. Another top MK in the same league as our American greats. What could he have done?

Anybody remember Apex 2010? Brood had this amazing winning streak, taking out Ally and M2K, only to lose to DEHF. Everyone thought he was amazing, until he participated in a New Jersey local the next weekend and didn't do nearly as well. At this point in time, Japan left with the same aura Brood did, but we probably won't get the chance to see if America can stand up to Japan any time soon.



Apex 2012 brought some interesting points regarding Metaknight's legality, but I do feel like it's not enough to really change enough or bring enough information to make a point in the ban's reversal. Metaknight still has character specific rules, there was no Brinstar/RC in Apex, which is very popular among American tournaments, and there weren't enough matches to tell if America could've done better against Japan. We should adopt their mindsets on the game, but if you want to go further than that and discuss stage lists, then that's a whole 'nother $20. I could argue that Japan banned the majority of their stages for mostly the same reasons America banned Metaknight, but I think this is enough for now.

 

[zmx]

That is a terrible statement and that is not at all the mentality of it.
it is a conservative thought process.

"Hmm I lost on this stage, let me not risk going back there and instead choose a stage I know for sure I would have an advantage on."

Seriously, why the hell are you trying to make U.S. players sound terrible?
Let alone this goes for everyone in this thread.

For anti-ban. The hell? This has to be the most confusing argument made yet, and the ONLY ones who are getting it, are those who were staunchly anti-ban from the beginning.


You're essentially starting with an argument that is saying "MetaKnight placed the most at Apex, took two spots out of the three and thusly, he is possibly legal because those who won with him, keep him legal in their country."

The logic isn't faulty, BUT, it is a big big stretch.
The very first part of your argument regarding A Japanese Metaknight winning can also count against you, because in all your argument about what the Japanese winning, you're shoving right past the fact that it was done utilizing Metaknight.

Let alone the entire thing about the Japanese having a more advanced metagame is extremely faulty.

Why?

Let us say M2K and Omni play against each other.
Omni lives on Neptune. M2K lives on Mars.
They meet on Venus, play against each other, and Omni wins.

They go back to their planets, they meet a year later, and guess what will happen?
Omni will probably win.

Why? M2K is at a skill disadvantage. Simple as that, and because he does not play against Omni, he cannot pick up on any habits or behavior to take advantage and advance his own gameplay.

So outside of M2K making a great leap in skill, which is extremely difficult as he is one of the best in Brawl, he will probably lose to Omni again. This will probably occur again as well each time they meet each year.

This is why you simply cannot create such an argument based off this one tournament.
There are far, far too many variables that cannot be accounted for simply because of the fact it is one tournament.

You can't argue against them either because it will always be pointed out how you lack enough evidence to support your claim, which is why this entire topic goes in one big *** circle.
You can't support your argument, but they cannot disprove yours either.

So what do we do? We stick with status quo.

Oh and how the hell did everyone forget his ledge grab bull **** in all this nonsense? That is something that was NEVER, EVER, solved.

1. Your analogy doesn't work at all. Basically you're saying a top player like M2K didn't have a chance to adapt as it was just one tournament. Well guess what? "Omni" hasn't ever had to play M2K either. What's your point? Double standard much?

2. 2 Mks who won with him and keep him legal in their country. Lolwut? Nietono doesn't use MK. He uses Olimar and STILL out placed the supposedly "top" MKs in the world (as many claimed before apex). So that doesn't work against my argument at all. If Nietono was using MK you might have had a point.

 

[Chuee]

Against the argument that "Legalizing MK and doing nothing else" is a good idea, the results of the one, and ONLY tournament that Japan held using Apex's ruleset seems to indicate otherwise

Well, tbh it would have been MK dominated even without the Apex ruleset. Nietono used MK one or two games on frigate for that tourney.
Looking at the entrants, all of Japan's MK players were at this (Rain, Otori, Kakera, El, Yui) while looking at the non-MKs that attended we have Nietono, Yui, Earth, Kuroobi, and Mikeneko. Aside from Nietono and Yui, most of them don't have the records vs MK that some of the others that didn't attend do. Of the non-MKs that didn't attend you have Masashi, Shu, Brood, 9B, and SLS. Most of them have better records vs MK than the ones who attended (once again not counting Yui and Nietono).

edit: interest note, looking at doubles Kakera and Otori lost to either Tamanyaso/Yuki or Sweet Pea/Somari.

 

[Orion*]

I also think it's incredibly hard to compare the US metagame and the Japanese metagame by saying that one is farther ahead than the other. The reason is because in reality, we're not on the same track, but instead, on two different tracks.

This is correct to a certain degree.... yet despite them playing a different ruleset it IS the same game, they aren't playing with items or something. Completely disregarding everything sounds bull**** to me, especially considering they came and bodied us in OUR OWN ruleset NOT theirs LMAO.

Also out of all the people you listed as far as losing to MK goes, literally every single loss was to otori minus one being ally and then nairo beating nietono in winners but losing in losers.

did you ever consider the fact that maybe otori is better than those players? or that ally is smarter? like LOL what do you want.

 

[Cassio]

Also a lot of the non-MKs under top 8 did work on the MKs. I think rich took out Holy, tyrant, zero, and m2k. Z took out Zex. Larry took out rain. ESAM beat kakera who chose not to use MK against him (only mentioned cause you listed him as ICs). Logic took out holy, Mr. R took out siebrik. Trevonte and DRN took out dojo. Lots of craziness. Oh yeah, Ocean beating m2k.

Twinkie I know youre very passionate about the lgl and ruleset limit stuff and Im probably someone who will sympathize with it more than most. But to the very large majority of the community such an elaborate argument is going to fall on deaf ears. Im already seeing on aib ppl wanting to adopt the japanese ruleset with or without MK.

Also Chuee that is really interesting.

 

[Bizkit047]

Finally some smart posts in this thread. (specifically John#'s). You either impose multiple surgical limits on MK and knock down the stage list or you ban MK.

edit: interest note, looking at doubles Kakera and Otori lost to either Tamanyaso/Yuki or Sweet Pea/Somari.

I noticed this as well from their most recent doubles tourney before Apex, where they placed 3rd. A wifi double MK team took it and 2nd was Brood + Yukkoe I believe. What I think happened is Otori (and Kakera) practiced doubles A LOT for this tourney and improved quite noticeably since then, since Brood/Yukkeo did not do that well in doubles at Apex, while Otori/Kakera can practice as much as they want and likely did so.

What I'm interested in is if Otori will keep beating Nietono in future Japanese tourneys. During Grand Finals, Otori did very little running away and camping and still beat him, so even with Japan's MK restricting ruleset, that set would have went practically the same. I'm also interested if they will keep doing doubles (or if they even like doubles) and if they'll limit MK in that too, since I don't see how even Japan can defend MK from doubles dominance.

Oh, btw, one last note. M2K doesn't know how to fight ROB as MK. They played on my Wii and the replays were saved (Ripple is uploading it eventually I think if he didn't already). I watched them and M2K died nearly every stock to a ROB Nair because he'd do things like try to throw out Shuttle Loop when he's at kill % instead of baiting it more safely, as well as other things like camping too horizontally so that he got hit by lasers/gyro too much. I'm pretty confident a couple of our other top MKs would take them out.

 

[WindMajor]

I didn't say to completely disregard everything lol. I just said that it would be difficult to compare. You can still compare things to the Japanese, but since we play different variations of the same game, one would have to dig a bit deeper in their explanations to iron out the inconsistencies and have a solid point.

Otori is most likely a better player than all of them, but that doesn't change the fact that he used MK to get to where he was. That whole section was just an observation, and it's open to a lot of interpretation, especially since there aren't even videos of the matches released yet.

ESAM beat kakera who chose not to use MK against him (only mentioned cause you listed him as ICs).

I know that Kakera uses MK, but only used ICs against ESAM. That's why I listed him as only ICs, cause against ESAM, he only used ICs. I think in the big reference post, I list him as both.

Twinkie I know youre very passionate about the lgl and ruleset limit stuff and Im probably someone who will sympathize with it more than most. But to the very large majority of the community such an elaborate argument is going to fall on deaf ears. Im already seeing on aib ppl wanting to adopt the japanese ruleset with or without MK.

Silly AiB people....

 

[zmx]

Finally some smart posts in this thread. (specifically John#'s). You either impose multiple surgical limits on MK and knock down the stage list or you ban MK.



I noticed this as well from their most recent doubles tourney before Apex, where they placed 3rd. A wifi double MK team took it and 2nd was Brood + Yukkoe I believe. What I think happened is Otori (and Kakera) practiced doubles A LOT for this tourney and improved quite noticeably since then, since Brood/Yukkeo did not do that well in doubles at Apex, while Otori/Kakera can practice as much as they want and likely did so.

What I'm interested in is if Otori will keep beating Nietono in future Japanese . During Grand Finals, Otori did very little running away and camping and still beat him, so even with Japan's MK restricting ruleset, that set would have went practically the same. I'm also interested if they will keep doing doubles (or if they even like doubles) and if they'll limit MK in that too, since I don't see how even Japan can defend MK from doubles dominance.

Oh, btw, one last note. M2K doesn't know how to fight ROB as MK. They played on my Wii and the replays were saved (Ripple is uploading it eventually I think if he didn't already). I watched them and M2K died nearly every stock to a ROB Nair because he'd do things like try to throw out Shuttle Loop when he's at kill % instead of baiting it more safely, as well as other things like camping too horizontally so that he got hit by lasers/gyro too much. I'm pretty confident a couple of our other top MKs would take them out.

That may very well be the case. However keep in mind that Kakera stated his MK also loses to Ocean's ROB. Hence why he goes/went Ice Climbers against him.

So perhaps Ocean is a little better at the MU in general than we're giving him credit for.

Edit:

You clearly haven't been reading since the beginning. Because that's been the argument all along. Unban MK and get rid of the most polarizing stages. Oh and lower the LGL even more if need be.

 

[Cassio]

why do people like to use silly what if statements? If every olimar was like nieotono then MK wouldnt place as well at nationals. amidoingitrite?
(@bizkitepost)