Feelings on MK and the MK ban after Apex

[Krystedez]

I offer Halberd for Frigate, laser and arm are tactical stage advantages and not random, they just decide to aim for a random person, and that person the whole game I believe.

As for YI:B, I'd say Brinstar, but then you'd call me a and the day would be done

 

[John12346]

Its a matter of perspective. While I agree, to many people these qualities in a stage are unforgivable, lol.

Indeed, such is the circle of life...

We should defo. try to get some super detailed writeups about the two stages when and if we ever come to a conclusion in that other thread I opened to determine whether or not they're competitive on an objective level. I say that if you're gonna hate the stages, you should at least be informed on why you should hate them, right?

 

[Steam]

@ Steam: Given that Picto Chat is a CP, it's a players calculated risk that they can choose to take by selecting the level and its random nature.

stage selection is not an in game element. the random moves are in game.

that and the stage list is something we can reasonably control, random moves and tripping are not.

 

[DeLux]

Not a bad answer if I may say so myself

 

[DMG]

All that you have proven is that Pikachu gets off the edge quicker, not that he needs more edge grabs to function normally. Pikachu is fine on the edge and has plenty of options, this isn't Ganondorf we're talking about lol.


Either way, if MK having a lower one MEANS we have to go through each character and sort them out, fine. We don't have to literally sit here and pick a number for each member of the cast to stop them from stalling on the edge in a broken manner. A universal LGL is bad but you could simplify the process down without going down the list completely.

Tethers don't need a ton, Pika doesn't need a truck load, bad characters as long as the number isn't too low its fine, etc.

 

[Kuro~]

I like your list lux. Looks about the same as mine cept i wouldn't have frigate on.

 

[DeLux]

*high five, I probably wouldn't have frigate on either, it's debatable imo

 

[BSP]

Pictochat: Pay attention and stay in safe zones, it's not that hard

I still don't believe in this safe zone. It's fine if you're just standing there, but we're in matches with opponents trying to KO us....we won't always be in neutral positions ready to dodge everything. Like, if you get grabbed in the safe zone, then walls pop up or something.

I think Brinstar is better than RC tho.

I thought I was alone on this. Finally, someone else agrees.

 

[Flayl]

Can somebody provide a video of someone staying in the safe zone of Pictochat for the majority of the transitions? The safe zone is so small the opponent's interference seems likely to make that hard if not impossible.

 

[Thino]

All that you have proven is that Pikachu gets off the edge quicker, not that he needs more edge grabs to function normally. Pikachu is fine on the edge and has plenty of options, this isn't Ganondorf we're talking about lol.


Either way, if MK having a lower one MEANS we have to go through each character and sort them out, fine. We don't have to literally sit here and pick a number for each member of the cast to stop them from stalling on the edge in a broken manner. A universal LGL is bad but you could simplify the process down without going down the list completely.

Tethers don't need a ton, Pika doesn't need a truck load, bad characters as long as the number isn't too low its fine, etc.

No matter how many times you ignore it I'll still say it again: how about just removing LGL altogether now that MK is gone?

 

[Steam]

the "safe zone" in pictochat isn't that relevant because the transformations that randomly and suddenly spawn platforms and walls can have just as drastic of an effect on game play while giving no warning to their appearance.

 

[DMG]

No matter how many times you ignore it I'll still say it again: how about just removing LGL altogether now that MK is gone?

Eh, sorta.

The game with no LGL with MK gone is playable I think. The game would not devolve into G^W dittos or ONLY planker vs planker. I do think the game is still better off with certain characters limited on the edge since a huge counter to other characters planking is removed (MK himself easily handles anyone planking him, exceptions being certain stages like Norfair for certain characters) and you would still have highly unpleasant matches revolved specifically around planking and stopping it. There's no reason for G^W to approach Diddy with a lead for example (would apply to many characters where you have a solid or worse disadvantage on stage vs them so you plank) and the edge is certainly the best spot for characters to be in with a lead if they want to avoid other scenarios.


The game is more enjoyable with a LGL on certain characters after MK is gone, even if they can't plank their way to top 5 in the game or break MU spreads. Because of that, you will probably still see a LGL being used in a MK free environment.

 

[Krystedez]

I still don't believe in this safe zone. It's fine if you're just standing there, but we're in matches with opponents trying to KO us....we won't always be in neutral positions ready to dodge everything. Like, if you get grabbed in the safe zone, then walls pop up or something.



I thought I was alone on this. Finally, someone else agrees.

the "safe zone" in pictochat isn't that relevant because the transformations that randomly and suddenly spawn platforms and walls can have just as drastic of an effect on game play while giving no warning to their appearance.

I think the safezone is pretty much anywhere where those things don't appear and on the ledges / in the top part of the screen. You have plenty of time to get into those safe zones ( or better, push your opponent into one of those "UNSAFE" zones ) to get a tactical advantage. I think it's important that opponents that know the stage can quite effectively control the battle. About the most lethal ones are the spikes and the minecart, with the giant bullets being a close third. All of those are pretty easy to remember where they appear. The other transformations aren't that bad.

You have:
Bullets (left and right)
Spikes (far left and right)
Flower( middle )
Minecart( Middle )

So just stay away from the middle mostly (or try to pressure your opponent to middle), and don't get launched as much. If you're just jumping all over the place you're really not playing the stage right and you shouldn't blame the stage.

My only problem with Pictochat are the ledges and the lack of scroogeable underside. The sides are also pretty deceiving in terms of death bounds, bottom AND sides. I used to CP Picto quite a bit, especially against Diddy. Diddys used to like this level. I don't think they should, because it has so much fun terrain to put them into a level playing field unlike FD.

(however I do know about walls appearing on the occasion, but as long as you don't get grabbed like my ******* did against a Dedede in the middle of the stage you should be fine.

 

[DMG]

It also has random walls to let them wall infinite, hazards to help them kill easier, **** in your face to make approaching them harder, etc. All things considered it's not that bad for them if they avoid getting juggled or face ***** into spikes or something. If you pull a Dphat though, it's hard to make up.

 

[Judo777]

To be fair I think 1 reason people john about RC/Brinstar so much is because alot of people don't like the stage (because they are intrusive) and it is a REALLY easy thing to blame losses on. Same concept as PS1 if people are gonna complain about the stage they typically complain about walls or the ledge, and if they happen to lose on that stage its a really easy thing to complain about (especially if you play someone like Falco, Fox, Sheik, Zelda or anyone else that can have a hard time hitting that ledge horizontally).

 

[-LzR-]

Eh, sorta.

The game with no LGL with MK gone is playable I think. The game would not devolve into G^W dittos or ONLY planker vs planker. I do think the game is still better off with certain characters limited on the edge since a huge counter to other characters planking is removed (MK himself easily handles anyone planking him, exceptions being certain stages like Norfair for certain characters) and you would still have highly unpleasant matches revolved specifically around planking and stopping it. There's no reason for G^W to approach Diddy with a lead for example (would apply to many characters where you have a solid or worse disadvantage on stage vs them so you plank) and the edge is certainly the best spot for characters to be in with a lead if they want to avoid other scenarios.


The game is more enjoyable with a LGL on certain characters after MK is gone, even if they can't plank their way to top 5 in the game or break MU spreads. Because of that, you will probably still see a LGL being used in a MK free environment.

Why is it fair for Diddy to shoot peanuts and throw bananas and camp behind them to force me to approach and eat a 40% banana combo, but when I go to the edge to do the same, it's soooooo unfair and bad and should be limited. Can we have a limit for Diddy so that he can only have 1 banana at a time? I think Diddy is dumb and makes the game unenjoyable and should be limited. Right?

 

[DMG]

Well, people do like onstage camping more than offstage camping.

 

[-LzR-]

But what is the reason for this? Can we limit tactics depending on if people like it? As I don't like bananas at all. Not many like them actually, can we limit them now?

 

[_Kain_]

LGL only comes into play if their is a timeout, why are people so concerned with a LGL if you can grab the ledge way over the limit as long as you take all your opponents stocks?

Ledge tactics =/= to onstage camping. Onstage camping tries to force an approach from their opponent, it's moreso an annoyance but it's something that can be dealt with, unless your character is complete garbage. Ledge tactics shy away from any interaction at all. The LGL is enforced to try to shy away from timeouts

In otherwords your analogies are horrible. Ledge camp away, you are allowed to do so as long as you are...you know...actually doing something? Quit complaining about banana's which you can easily grab with Z when thrown at you, or also use to camp diddy. Your comparisons keep getting worse and worse

 

[-LzR-]

How are they not similar? G&W is the strongest on the ledge, but somehow he isn't allowed to be there much even though he isn't even toptier anymore. Mk has been taken care of and LGL has served it's purpose.

 

[_Kain_]

How are they not similar? G&W is the strongest on the ledge, but somehow he isn't allowed to be there much even though he isn't even toptier anymore. Mk has been taken care of and LGL has served it's purpose.

Did you not read the part about being allowed to be on the ledge as much as you want as long as you kill your opponent and not let it go to timeout?

 

[-LzR-]

Yes, I understand that part, but if you are on the ledge for a while, the game suddenly turns into you being forced to approach no matter what stocks or %. I'm not trying to claim I know more than you do here.

 

[_Kain_]

Yes, I understand that part, but if you are on the ledge for a while, the game suddenly turns into you being forced to approach no matter what stocks or %. I'm not trying to claim I know more than you do here.

It's not about who knows more but rather how you choose to look at the game or what you view as "fair play" by your standards.

If you have the lead, what reasons would you stay on the ledge for?
1- Create an opening by forcing an approach, which you can capitalize on.
2- Plank, which is not exclusive to MK. GnW can do it just as good as MK can IMO. Others that can plank to an extent are ROB and Pit. Others can in specific MU's as well.

Planking shys away from any sort of interaction while staying safe, maintaining your lead, and also running the timer out. The soul purpose of planking is to run the timer out. Why should someone be awarded for avoiding contact for an extended period of time(8 min)? It destroys the purpose of the competition which is to take all of your opponent's stocks. Even with LGL in place I've seen matches go to time from the result of planking and the player still not go over the LGL. Plenty of times enough to know that LGL is not as big a factor as some try to make it out to be, especially if you keep track of your ledge count.

tl;dr

You are in no way forced to approach by staying on the ledge with a percent lead, even with a LGL in place. I have yet to see someone DQed for going over the LGL after a timeout, at least in all the high profile matches I've seen occur that have gone to timeout since the LGL has been implemented

 

[WindMajor]

and LGL has served it's purpose.

This is a lie, LGLs never had a purpose that could be fulfilled.

 

[-LzR-]

@Kain: How are you not forced to approach when G&W is camping on the ledge? It's not like G&W can just spam nairs and win.
@Xiivi: That's also true.

 

[_Kain_]

@Kain: How are you not forced to approach when G&W is camping on the ledge? It's not like G&W can just spam nairs and win.
@Xiivi: That's also true.

Think you read it wrong, you asked why are you suddenly forced to approach with the lead because you are on the ledge, and I answered by basically saying you aren't forced to approach

 

[-LzR-]

But your opponent has no reason to challenge you when you are in advantageous position. Diddy Kong can get more and more naners and keep shooting more stuff. It's not entirely the same, but both have the same purpose, make the opponent approach and punish. In Diddys case, he is free to shoot **** as long as he likes, but G&W isn't.

 

[_Kain_]

Diddy Kong can only try to hit you on the ledge with peanuts from a far distance. If you have a lead you don't exactly have to be on the ledge to be safe from peanuts, there not even hard to avoid, then when you make him come closer you can go back to the ledge. Like I said what are you aiming for here? If you have a one stock lead, Diddy will be forced to do something and just shooting peanuts from far away is not enough to get it done. If you have to stay on the ledge just to avoid peanuts then idk what to say lol. Can't you catch peanuts and eat them? I think GnW can still maintain an advantageous position without having to be on the ledge 24/7, especially if we take into account stages and whatnot, and that Diddy Kong has to be the one to act first.

Like I said it comes down to how you view the game, and apparently you think it's ok for a GnW to get the lead and nair -> up b over and over while Diddy Kong shoots peanuts over and over, even though I'm pretty sure Diddy wouldn't need to do that since he is one of the characters that is very good at dealing with planking due to naners.

 

[WindMajor]

The issue with the LGL is that the LGL is flawed no matter how you look at it. It tries to enforce a tactic that's not discrete, the method of doing so are very flimsy, it opens itself to double standards (like the Diddy camping thing that LzR is trying to mention), etc. Any game that ends with the LGL as the deciding factor is a match that ended unfairly. However, according to you and your standards of fair play, the LGL is still fine because it only applies under certain conditions, conditions which rarely ever happen.

Is it fair for a match to be decided by a flawed rule even if it rarely happens?

 

[Omni]

I think you're looking way too far into it.

Highly competitive players who frequent tournaments have no complaints about not having the ability to ledgecamp with G&W.

 

[-LzR-]

Because no one plays G&W.

 

[Omni]

In Melee, Sheik's up+b stall is very difficult for some characters to stop. Upon grabbing the ledge she has invincibility frames upon release and can snap back to the ledge while releasing a rather large hitbox from her up+b reappearing frames.

However, you don't see this being abused for 8 minutes straight in Melee although "it could happen". The same philosphy applies that it is difficult to stop for some, easier for others, and has low risk/high reward for Sheik.

The mechanics of Smash are way too uncontrolled and vast compared to other fighting games. Sometimes, limits such as the LGL can be used to "tame" specific strategies that undermine the direction most players wish to see the game proceed toward. Is MK broken because his ledge camping is too powerful, or is ledge camping in itself a very powerful mechanic? I would suggest the latter due to Brawl's mechanics of ledge snapping coupled with invincibility frames being very powerful.

 

[WindMajor]

I don't understand why I have to lose a match as Toon Link against Falco after getting a last minute stock advantage due to Falco forcing me on the ledge for so long, dragging out gameplay.

 

[Omni]

I don't understand why I have to lose a match as Toon Link against Falco after getting a last minute stock advantage due to Falco forcing me on the ledge for so long, dragging out gameplay.

How exactly is Falco forcing you on the ledge?

 

[DMG]

I slightly disagree with that. Camping the ledge serves no positive purpose for most characters in the game besides trying to bait out their opponent into a move/option so that they can get onto the stage safer. Also for Shiek in Melee, if you wanted to curb that, you could make a rule that specifically targets her Upb going to the edge since she's doing the stalling with Upb repeatedly to take advantage of the invincibility she gets. You could stop that strategy without affecting anyone else in the cast: if you see a LGL in Melee it would probably be specifically because of Jiggs. Even then, you could have a LGL specifically on her and deal with it. It's not like Fox/Falco need to stall on the edge or can do it like Shiek, and I can't think of a comparable character after that outside of maybe Ganon lol.


For Brawl it is trickier though. There is no trademark move or signature for MK planking besides he's offstage and somewhere he's gonna grab the edge for it to be effective lol. Throw that on a character that doesn't need to plank 70% of the cast to already have a winning MU and it's a bit silly. I would have a LGL on since there's no viable alternative (I hate whoever came up with the ground time rule, I don't know what gameplay this is supposed to curb if a LGL takes care of planking and this hates being in the air), but I would have different limits for different subsets of characters. The whole cast does not need a universal LGL because a handful of characters can abuse it.

 

[Omni]

Nah, you can't. No one is counting ledgegrabs in Melee and I don't believe there a ledgegrab counter at the win screen. Is there?

Hrm @ selective LGL's. Do not want.

 

[DMG]

What's wrong with a selective LGL? MK can have a low one, other planking characters can have a standard one, and characters that don't really need a LGL can have a much higher one (just in case we want to prevent a breakout of stalling, although lets be honest we're not gonna see Falco successfully time out a match by grabbing the edge anytime soon.)

I'd rather have that than a universal LGL that's too low or too high. You always run that risk because you can't honestly expect 1 number to fit the entire cast. Period.

Actually Im pretty sure Melee has a edge grab counter. I think it's called Cliff Hangs? Or edge hangs something along those lines. But yeah it counts how much you grab the edge. And IIRC they also have a timer that counts how much time was spent on the edge (in seconds I think) so there's 2 measurements if Im not mistaken.

 

[Omni]

Hrm. Something about all of it smells of unnecessary.

 

[DMG]

I mean having a LGL itself is necessary/desired right? Why not take the time to make it a more solid rule? This isn't or shouldn't be 1 Ring to rule them all lol.

 

[WindMajor]

How exactly is Falco forcing you on the ledge?

The usual stuff. Lasers, reflector, DACUS to the ledge, etc.