Falcon is top tier

[DMG]

I got it to start under or around 20%. I did it a few times, but I don't remember everything % wise.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I'll have to test it out then. Even if I count Wario as one of my mains, I highly doubt I'll ever use him against a Falcon in a competitive match. Still, that's some interesting information.

Was this posted on the Wario Boards already? I don't recall seeing anything about a chaingrab going up that high on Falcon. (But then again, who really discusses Falcon nowadays.)

 

[DMG]

It was posted a few times but I forgot to memorize the exact %'s and the effect of slants like Yoshi's on it.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Ah, still 20%-80%+ is really bad. That basically turns the whole match-up into a 'don't get grabbed' case for both characters.

Wario's grab game is pretty easy to predict though. Unless he's going for a grab, I really don't see why a Wario would dare to land within the grab range of another character, especially Falcon.

 

[DMG]

Wario's grab is huge compared to Falcon's options though. Like Wario's grab range is 2-3 times larger than Falcons I think.

 

[Darky-Sama]

It's also slower than Falcon's by quite some margin IIRC.

Judging that Falcon is usually shielding from Wario's air pressure, spot dodging if Wario lands in front of him usually isn't that difficult. I'm not too sure though. It's rare that I've seen Wario vs. Falcon in terms of their grabs. Most Wario's act like they're scared sh**less to even get near Falcon.

 

[DMG]

Wario's grab is 6 frames. Most fast grabs are that fast. Unless Falcon's is 4-5 frames.

 

[PenUmbra]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RxuYURyRxY

2:58

Maybe it's common knowledge and I'm a scrub buuuuuuuut I'm gonna inquire anyway.

Does falcon's weak fair have set knockback? The percents were different enough so I think I'd see a difference in terms of knockback during a trade but it looks as if the knockback was the same. I can imagine that having some sort of benefit for falcon's game. Anyone know any more?

TL;dr: holy **** that wasn't even long. Falcon weak fair= set knockback?

 

[Darky-Sama]

Nope, it just depends on how you flub it and at what percents. Sometimes it'll even knock characters over. It's best used in the air IMO, because most of the time you can flub a knee and follow up with a back air or uair that can't be avoided.

Also; I thought Wario's grab was like... 8-9 frames. lolwow, I was off. It just looks extremely slow compared to other characters. Falcon's grab is pretty decent. I think it's about 4-5 frames, yeah. I'll need to check the frame data or get Gen to update the thread with his grab frame rate.

 

[DMG]

Weak Fair combos into free grab if done correctly. The knockback is NOT set, however it increased in knockback VERY slowly.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Weak Fair combos into free grab if done correctly. The knockback is NOT set, however it increased in knockback VERY slowly.

^
That, plus you have to take stale moves into consideration too.

 

[DMG]

Yeah Wario's grab is fast. He beats out characters like DK and Snake in grab speed, which is good to know.

 

[Darky-Sama]

That's really good to know, actually. I always spam Wario's grab, but I never really use them unless it's from following up after an aerial (or by shield grabbing, of course).

I'm almost certain Falcon's grab is a frame or two faster than Wario's though.

 

[thexsunrosered]

A Falcon might know how to play flashy, but lets face it, most of the Falcon Boards know how to play their character, but don't know how to play Brawl properly.

yes
10learntoreads

I love using falcon. If people stopped playing him like every match was a combo video he would be SOO much better. You hit when you can hit and run away / space when you can't.

On a side note, I actually always pick Falcon for a wario match up :O

 

[Darky-Sama]

Which is exactly why I believe Falcon has more potential than people give him credit for. A Falcon who knows his match-ups and plays this game how it's suppose to be played at a professional level, rather than showing off, will actually make him seem that much more viable. Even if he is a terrible character overall compared to other characters playing on a competitive level.

Against Wario, I use either of my three mains.

Falcon; obviously a pretty fun match-up.
ZSS; primary main, most used competitively.
Wario; loldittos suck, but still not bad since hes my high/top tier.

 

[smashkng]

I think Falcon's standing grab is 7 frames just like Ganon and Ike.

 

[Psychoace]

I had it going past 80%. Not sure exactly how long.

Hai DMG. It went to like 75% If I remember correctly, I was the one it was done to. After that you back threw me and edge guarded me into death. Like he mentioned we were playing on YI also.

Most of what I remember from that match is throwing some grabs at about the same time and you would always win because you were further back.

...and my grab release sweet knee. Surprise forward smash ftw.

 

[Darky-Sama]

According to Smash Wiki's Page and Here. ***


Character: Standing grab, Running Grab, Pivot Grab
Mario: 6, 12, 11
Luigi: 6, 12, 11
Peach: 6, 6, 13
Bowser: 9, 10, 9
Donkey Kong: 8, 10, 10
Diddy Kong: 6, 10, 8
Yoshi: 17, 11, 10
Wario: 6, 10, 8
Link: 12, 14, 15
Zelda: 12, 11, 14
Sheik: 6, 7, 8
Ganondorf: 7, 11, 10
Toon Link: 12, 14, 15
Samus: 17, 17, 19
Zero Suit Samus: 16, 16, 16
Pit: 6, 10, 9
Ice Climbers: 6, 8, 8
R.O.B.: 6, 9, 10
Kirby: 6, 10, 10
Meta Knight: 6, 8, 7
King Dedede: 6, 9, 7
Olimar: 11, 11, 11
Fox: 6, 11, 9
Falco: 6, 11, 9
Wolf: 6, 11, 9
Captain Falcon: 7, 11, 16
Pikachu: 6, 9, 10
Squirtle: 6, 8, 9
Ivysaur: 13, 13, 13
Charizard: 6, 8, 10
Lucario: 6, 8, 9
Jigglypuff: 6, 10, 10
Marth: 6, 9, 9
Ike: 7, 12, 9
Ness: 6, 8, 6
Lucas: 13, 16, 15
Mr. Game & Watch: 6, 9, 10
Snake: 8, 11, 9
Sonic: 6, 10, 10

If that's correct, Wario's grab is in fact faster than Falcon.
That's pretty surprising, I have to say.

 

[DMG]

Sup Psychoace.

Yeah on YI it lasted pretty long. I know it works on flat stages too, but I dunno what the slants do to the CG (Extend or shorten it or both? lol)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zero Suit Samus: 16, 16, 16


I die a little inside every time I see this

 

[A2ZOMG]

So Falcon is one of those 7 frame grabbers who is unable to shieldgrab most Jab combos. And yet DDD has like four times as much grab range, AND gets to shieldgrab Jab combos.

 

[Psychoace]

Sup Psychoace.

Yeah on YI it lasted pretty long. I know it works on flat stages too, but I dunno what the slants do to the CG (Extend or shorten it or both? lol)

Well I would think it would act kinda like a wall stopping your momentum, until you got to the peak of the point at least anyway. Maybe we can play with it more at the next phaze, or whatever I can make it to.

 

[Darky-Sama]

That's just the total frame length, we need to figure out what frame the grab actually connects on for them too. I don't think it comes out on from one for every character. lol.

Especially not for ZSS. Hell, shes lucky to even get her grab to connect period. lmfao.

 

[DMG]

Actually no those are the frames they first connect on. Wario's grab first connects on frame 6 and then 7, and total frames is like 29 or something before he can move again.

 

[Darky-Sama]

29 frames? Wow, that's like... really long. lmfao. I know ZSS's is around 50 frames or so.

I'm guessing Falcon's should only be around 20-25 in that case. His grab animation is generally fast.

 

[PZ]

According to Smash Wiki's Page and Here. ***


Character: Standing grab, Running Grab, Pivot Grab
Mario: 6, 12, 11
Luigi: 6, 12, 11
Peach: 6, 6, 13
Bowser: 9, 10, 9
Donkey Kong: 8, 10, 10
Diddy Kong: 6, 10, 8
Yoshi: 17, 11, 10
Wario: 6, 10, 8
Link: 12, 14, 15
Zelda: 12, 11, 14
Sheik: 6, 7, 8
Ganondorf: 7, 11, 10
Toon Link: 12, 14, 15
Samus: 17, 17, 19
Zero Suit Samus: 16, 16, 16
Pit: 6, 10, 9
Ice Climbers: 6, 8, 8
R.O.B.: 6, 9, 10
Kirby: 6, 10, 10
Meta Knight: 6, 8, 7
King Dedede: 6, 9, 7
Olimar: 11, 11, 11
Fox: 6, 11, 9
Falco: 6, 11, 9
Wolf: 6, 11, 9
Captain Falcon: 7, 11, 16
Pikachu: 6, 9, 10
Squirtle: 6, 8, 9
Ivysaur: 13, 13, 13
Charizard: 6, 8, 10
Lucario: 6, 8, 9
Jigglypuff: 6, 10, 10
Marth: 6, 9, 9
Ike: 7, 12, 9
Ness: 6, 8, 6
Lucas: 13, 16, 15
Mr. Game & Watch: 6, 9, 10
Snake: 8, 11, 9
Sonic: 6, 10, 10

If that's correct, Wario's grab is in fact faster than Falcon.
That's pretty surprising, I have to say.

Yoshi: Correct for running grab wrong for pivot and standard grab.
Pivot grab: 9
Grab: 16
Just saying as a yoshi main.

 

[Mit]

Random quote from first page:

If you can use Falcon and be able to read, predict, and punish your opponent he can be amazing.

Replace "Falcon" with any other character name in Brawl, and you have a true statement still.

Those are the fundamentals to high-level Brawl play. If you are capable of that, you can technically land hits with any character, and win. Ally is one of the best players in the world at this, and if given the time to learn a character, he could likely make any character on the roster look good. He just decided to choose the sexiest for his random low-tier main

In terms of everything BUT reading, predicting, and punishing your opponents, I don't think Falcon is very underrated at all. He's just got a bit more options than some other low tier mains, although they come at the price of his absolute lack of disjoint on 99% of his entire moveset.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon has good physics however and a few KO options that at very safe on block.

 

[BigLord]

Isn't it curious that a few weeks after opening this thread... the new tier list moved Falcon up?

And Mit is correct there. The best way to play Brawl is defensively and punishing.

 

[DMG]

DARNIT, YOU GUYS FIGURED OUT THE HIDDEN MESSAGE OF THE THREAD! I MADE THIS SOLELY TO TELL YOU SECRETLY THAT FALCON WAS GONNA RISE UP!

Lol that would be pretty epic if I actually knew and foresaw the events to come, and made this all just to tell you guys.

 

[Psychoace]

DMG was the reason falcon rose in the tierlist!!!!!11 omg!

 

[Player-3]

so guys i have a new idea

we pay off people we play in national tournaments to let falcon get 1st so that he becomes top tier

mindgames?

 

[Lionman]

Rebaz has money i think he can do that

I can punch people in the face but thats illegal

 

[BigLord]

That, or we could train moar!

*up taunt*
COME!!!

 

[King Omega]

That, or we could train moar!

I fully support this proposal.

 

[Psychoace]

Rebaz has money i think he can do that

I can punch people in the face but thats illegal

Thought he quit?

 

[Iwan]

Falcon requires a fairly good understanding of how followups work, and he needs rather precise timing to make the most of his aerials and other moves. His aerials can do decent things, but besides being hindered by Falcon's limitations, he's also hindered a lot by what his player is capable of doing.

This is the best post I've seen in this entire thread.

Granted, all characters are "limited by what their players are capable of", but I've always felt that falcon's so strange in brawl.

Looking at his statistics and character traits, he's just god awful.

Put him in the hands of a player who knows falcon in and out, but more importantly, knows brawl in and out, and you have a surprisingly elusive, hard to read character who can be unpredictable and extremely explosive. He's one of the few (only?) characters that have next to no reliable maneuvers or tactics. You don't play campy with him, but you absolutely can't play aggressively all the time either. It's like hit and run.

I really don't even know a better way to put it than A2ZOMG, but honestly, it's like Captain Falcon is that really, really terrible character, with next to no upside compared to other characters, who doesn't really have reliable attributes........

...Who is potentially scary as hell and surprisingly effective on a match-to-match basis.

I just feel like absolutely more so than any other character in this game, the player really determines how well falcon does on a game-by-game basis...and that just seems extremely hard to judge as far as where to place him on the tier list.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Looking at his statistics and character traits, he's just god awful.

but honestly, it's like Captain Falcon is that really, really terrible character, with next to no upside compared to other characters, who doesn't really have reliable attributes........

That's not how I feel about Falcon. Yes he's below average in a lot of categories, but he's decent and actually good in a select few that matter.

You described him as elusive, and indeed Falcon has tools that can make him very much so, which includes his high mobility AND the fact he has a number of fairly powerful moves that are safe on block (but require skilled timing and spacing).

Falcon also has a decent closeup game thanks to Jab alone, and his tilts aren't horrible. His grab game isn't hugely amazing, but it's solid and due to Falcon's mobility, fall speed, and fairly quick aerials, his grab game leads to virtually guaranteed followups under a player who knows how juggling works. To be frank, Falcon is one of the most reliable jugglers in the game, at the very least in terms of being able to keep his options open if the opponent airdodges (and honestly, my observation is that Falcon players don't use enough U-throw, which should be a statement as to how good this character is at consistent juggles).

He's bad because frankly though, while his movepool is acceptable and allows him to do decent and virtually safe damage to his opponent, there is pretty much no easy way to kill with this character, and he's gimpable and easily juggled as well. Although as mentioned, he does have KO options that are safe on block, which includes D-smash, B-air, and U-tilt.

And not helping his case is stuff like the fact that most of his aerials (particularly N-air and to a lesser extent D-air) are very difficult to space on a grounded opponent. I know that I myself don't space Falcon's N-air nearly as well as I want to most of the time, but I consider a disadvantage like this more of a disadvantage related to me as a player having skill limitations (as I have a friend who has been a Falcon player much longer than me, and he for example spaces N-air and does other technical things pretty consistently).

However I do think that Falcon where he is right now is appropriate, although I think people AROUND him need to be rearranged. Falcon being 5th-6th worst in this game makes sense to me. He's a bad character, but not complete Triforce garbage tier useless.

 

[lordhelmet]

^What A2ZOMG said lol.

 

[King Omega]

Falcon also has a decent closeup game thanks to Jab alone, and his tilts aren't horrible. His grab game isn't hugely amazing, but it's solid and due to Falcon's mobility, fall speed, and fairly quick aerials, his grab game leads to virtually guaranteed followups under a player who knows how juggling works. To be frank, Falcon is one of the most reliable jugglers in the game, at the very least in terms of being able to keep his options open if the opponent airdodges (and honestly, my observation is that Falcon players don't use enough U-throw, which should be a statement as to how good this character is at consistent juggles).

Why do you say the grab game isn't hugely amazing? I more or less agree; I'm just wondering what your reasons are. The major problem I can think of is that almost the entirety of the cast can get an aerial out before Falcon can once thrown, lowering chances of uair juggles and completely erasing the chance of dthrow --> knee (unless of course the opponent doesn't move).

He's bad because frankly though, while his movepool is acceptable and allows him to do decent and virtually safe damage to his opponent, there is pretty much no easy way to kill with this character, and he's gimpable and easily juggled as well. Although as mentioned, he does have KO options that are safe on block, which includes D-smash, B-air, and U-tilt.

In my opinion, his kill weakness is his second biggest issue. First would be his devastating lack of priority. His tilts come out somewhat more slowly than it seems, and though his aerials are fast, they're overridden by most other aerials in the game.

Falcon can edgeguard high with bairs and low with sourspot Knees, so he has potential to kill that way. Obviously sourspot fair-ing MetaKnight and the attempting an edgehog won't work, but it's all good against characters who rely on tether (Olimar) or have crappy Up-B (Link).

And not helping his case is stuff like the fact that most of his aerials (particularly N-air and to a lesser extent D-air) are very difficult to space on a grounded opponent. I know that I myself don't space Falcon's N-air nearly as well as I want to most of the time, but I consider a disadvantage like this more of a disadvantage related to me as a player having skill limitations (as I have a friend who has been a Falcon player much longer than me, and he for example spaces N-air and does other technical things pretty consistently).

You shoulnd't hit grounded enemies with multi-hit nair, except as an approach. The better use of that move is the n-air cancel. This is an excellent way to lead into jab grab --> grab --> aerial followup game. All the better since the n-air is perfect for bufferring the jab.

However I do think that Falcon where he is right now is appropriate, although I think people AROUND him need to be rearranged. Falcon being 5th-6th worst in this game makes sense to me. He's a bad character, but not complete Triforce garbage tier useless.

Yeah, he doesn't really belong too high on the tier list. But honestly, do we need him to?