Falcon is top tier

[DMG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RxuYURyRxY


This is an actual Grand Finals Match that was held at an Oklahoma tournament that Bassem and I split/won. We would have done the entire set like this, but we were crunched for time so we came up with different matches to do like Ganon Dittos or Random on Corneria.

So what do you guys think about your character actually being seriously used in Grand Finals? Discuss.

 

[lordhelmet]

Captain Falcon is definitely underrated. The problem is that we have too little tournament representation as most of the good Falcons I know personally have some sort of john that prevents them from going to tournaments.

Even Ally's occasional tournament use of Falcon shows that he has great potential, but it's very dependent on the player. If you can use Falcon and be able to read, predict, and punish your opponent he can be amazing. He's not like Ike, where you just space fairs and get lucky fsmashes, he has a ton of potential and true combos that players have yet to become good and consistent enough to pull in a real match.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Captain Falcon is definitely an underrated character. He's still quite bad, but he's not completely incompetent garbage like a few other characters. He at least has options to mix up.

I do believe that there should be more players like Ally who are able to prove that this character can be alright when used correctly.

 

[Zatchiel]

I think captain falcon is severely underrated, but not just because of his low priority attacks.
He has many diffrent options to chose from if he can get his opponent in the air, but i think his ground
game is somewhat garbage, grabbing has its priorities, especially his Falcon Dive
But captain falcon is somewhat of an underrated character

 

[A2ZOMG]

By the way as for that video DMG, use more U-throw...otherwise good stuff. =)

 

[SmashBrother2008]

I don't know. To be honest, I've grown to like the "underdog" position that Captain Falcon has now... It makes for some nice surprises. Thanks for posting this.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I love you guys.

Captain Falcon is terrible, but still underrated.

Captain Falcon just lacks tournament representation in general. The few people who do represent him use other characters in tournaments and the others who do use him are below-average players. So yeah, I can see where Kishin's going with that.

In my honest opinion, if you're at a skill level where you have absolutely no problem with reading your opponent and punishing them WITHOUT playing like an aggressive Melee-styled player, then you'll do great with Falcon. Using Falcon at a high, possibly tournament standard level is seriously strict s***.

Take a look at how brawl has to be played at a professional level. Although it's nice for bragging rights, you can't go for a bunch of flashy s*** with Falcon and expect to get away with it constantly against a good player. I think that's where most of our board members are going wrong. Those seeking improvement, drop the aggression, play defensively and learn to read your opponents and combo based on that factor alone.

I'll just go ahead and leave this here...

 

[Zeallyx]

Captain Falcon is definitely underrated. The problem is that we have too little tournament representation as most of the good Falcons I know personally have some sort of john that prevents them from going to tournaments.

Even Ally's occasional tournament use of Falcon shows that he has great potential, but it's very dependent on the player. If you can use Falcon and be able to read, predict, and punish your opponent he can be amazing. He's not like Ike, where you just space fairs and get lucky fsmashes, he has a ton of potential and true combos that players have yet to become good and consistent enough to pull in a real match.

Captain Falcon is definitely an underrated character. He's still quite bad, but he's not completely incompetent garbage like a few other characters. He at least has options to mix up.

I do believe that there should be more players like Ally who are able to prove that this character can be alright when used correctly.

I think captain falcon is severely underrated, but not just because of his low priority attacks.
He has many diffrent options to chose from if he can get his opponent in the air, but i think his ground
game is somewhat garbage, grabbing has its priorities, especially his Falcon Dive
But captain falcon is somewhat of an underrated character

I love you guys.

Captain Falcon is terrible, but still underrated.



I'll just go ahead and leave this here...

You guys are wrong.
Captain falcon is not underrated, at all.

I shouldnt have to explain why.

Also, @TC:
It beeing a falcon ditto takes away alot of the accomplishment.

And you guys were decent (with falcon, from what I've seen), but you weren't playing good.

 

[DMG]

Well I guess I will never play Falcon again in pools or Grand Finals then, if it doesn't matter if my opponent simply decides to use the same over powered character.

There's nothing wrong with Falcon dittos. It just shows who sucks at the Falcon Ditto. I think you would be proud that we even considered using the character in something like Grand Finals, Goooooooosh.

 

[Zeallyx]

Well I guess I will never play Falcon again in pools or Grand Finals then, if it doesn't matter if my opponent simply decides to use the same over powered character.

There's nothing wrong with Falcon dittos. It just shows who sucks at the Falcon Ditto. I think you would be proud that we even considered using the character in something like Grand Finals, Goooooooosh.

Why would one be proud of the character beeing used in the grand finals as a joke..

Would you go falcon if your opponent picked his tourny main?

 

[LuLLo]

He's not like Ike, where you just space fairs and get lucky fsmashes

Ahum....you sir, know nothing about Ike

But true about Falcon, when played right and with tons of mindgames you can beast with him, jabjab to SHFF Knee!

 

[DMG]

If Bassem went Wario, I would consider it. Falcon vs Wario is ok. Like it's not great, but it could be worse. I would think about it, but since I am really good at the Wario ditto, I would see no point.

 

[lordhelmet]

If Bassem went Wario, I would consider it. Falcon vs Wario is ok. Like it's not great, but it could be worse. I would think about it, but since I am really good at the Wario ditto, I would see no point.

Falcon vs Wario is easy imho.

 

[DMG]

Wario vs Wario is easy when you are DMG.

The more you know... obviously the more you know.

 

[Zeallyx]

If Bassem went Wario, I would consider it. Falcon vs Wario is ok. Like it's not great, but it could be worse. I would think about it, but since I am really good at the Wario ditto, I would see no point.

My point exactly.
And wario vs falcon is not ok. If the wario has even 10% of matchup exp. against falcon, the falcon's done for.

Falcon's only got some grab release shenanigans on wario, but no 'easy' way to grab wario.

Falcon vs Wario is easy imho.

Your opponents should lrn2bite. (among other things, obviously).

 

[lordhelmet]

My point exactly.
And wario vs falcon is not ok. If the wario has even 10% of matchup exp. against falcon, the falcon's done for.

Falcon's only got some grab release shenanigans on wario, but no 'easy' way to grab wario.



Your opponents should lrn2bite. (among other things, obviously).

Yes Wario can **** Falcon with Chomp, but you make it sound unbeatable. Utilt or usmash him out of it. Falcon has more options than you give him credit for.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Falcon vs Wario isn't bad at all. Like I said, people underrate him.

Falcon's a terrible character, but people using him at a professional level, under the terms of how this game is SUPPOSE to be played competitively, hes not bad at all. A Falcon might know how to play flashy, but lets face it, most of the Falcon Boards know how to play their character, but don't know how to play Brawl properly.

If you can't read your opponent at a professional level, you won't do that well with Falcon against a skillful player. /discussion.

 

[Zeallyx]

Yes Wario can **** Falcon with Chomp, but you make it sound unbeatable. Utilt or usmash him out of it. Falcon has more options than you give him credit for.

Falcon vs Wario isn't bad at all. Like I said, people underrate him.

Falcon's a terrible character, but people using him at a professional level, under the terms of how this game is SUPPOSE to be played competitively, hes not bad at all. A Falcon might know how to play flashy, but lets face it, most of the Falcon Boards know how to play their character, but don't know how to play Brawl properly.

If you can't read your opponent at a professional level, you won't do that well with Falcon against a skillful player. /discussion.

It's been this long. And we're this far into brawls metagame, and you guys still think like that.

You guys are hopeless, in regard to brawl.

"If you cant read your opponent at a professional level..boehoe"

Cut the crap. A professional MK will beat a professional falcon.
No exceptions.
/discussion

 

[Darky-Sama]

"If you cant read your opponent at a professional level..boehoe"

Cut the crap. A professional MK will beat a professional falcon.
No exceptions.
/discussion

Did I say that he couldn't? No, I did not.

You're always so eager to jump on other people. It's sorta sad, really. I'm just implying that Falcon does much better competitively if you actually know how to play the game, rather than trying to perform youtube combo video material 24/7.

 

[Zeallyx]

Did I say that he couldn't? No, I did not.

You're always so eager to jump on other people. It's sorta sad, really. I'm just implying that Falcon does much better competitively if you actually know how to play the game, rather than trying to perform youtube combo video material 24/7.

Isn't that obvious enough already.

The fact falcon's MG changed since melee really is common knowledge, and thus that his MG is different and needs a different approach is too.
And the fact falcon is bottom tier is too.

Saying he's underrated is downright stupid.

As if everything on this forum is based on the 'imma do a Uair2Knee combo'.

That, sir, is baloney.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Most people say Falcon is like the 2nd or 3rd worst character or something, when he can probably settle for being 5th or 6th worst character in the game. So yes, he is underrated.

He is at the bottom of the low tier most likely, but he is not a bottom tier character as far as I'm concerned. There are characters that are significantly more limited than he is imo.

 

[lordhelmet]

Isn't that obvious enough already.

The fact falcon's MG changed since melee really is common knowledge, and thus that his MG is different and needs a different approach is too.
And the fact falcon is bottom tier is too.

Saying he's underrated is downright stupid.

As if everything on this forum is based on the 'imma do a Uair2Knee combo'.

That, sir, is baloney.

He's underrated because very few people have played a GOOD Falcon.

 

[Zeallyx]

Most people say Falcon is like the 2nd or 3rd worst character or something, when he can probably settle for being 5th or 6th worst character in the game. So yes, he is underrated.

He is at the bottom of the low tier most likely, but he is not a bottom tier character as far as I'm concerned. There are characters that are significantly more limited than he is imo.

I'd like to hear about a character even more limited than falcon in brawl. (And why, offcourse.)

(Except, obviously, ganon.)

 

[exdia_16]

Falcon vs Wario is easy imho.

i totally agree its like one of my easy/hard match ups and i hav almost beaten BMX and i beat Kreva, i just want to knee his teeth so bad down throw leads to a nair then fair simple combo always works for me.

 

[Zatchiel]

Wario vs Falcon is a fairly easy matchup if the falcon is smart and knows his best moves from his worst:

U Tilt = Spacing, Edgeguarding, Dodge countering some characters.
D Tilt = Knee setup, Grab setup, U Tilt setup
F Tilt = Edgeguarding and Spacing(Sometimes)
Falcon Kick = Crap Priority! Can counter dodges easily
Raptor Boost = Crap Priority! Best on Dodge punishment and Tech chases

Ehh, a few details right there, im to tired to go on xP

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'd like to hear about a character even more limited than falcon in brawl. (And why, offcourse.)

(Except, obviously, ganon.)

Ike and Zelda definitely have more limited playstyles than Falcon, and I'd consider those two characters clearly worse than Falcon, although this needs to be proved by more tournament results outside of Ally doing random amazing stuff with Falcon. Ike and Zelda are WORSE at approaching and dealing with camping than Falcon (Falcon actually has approaches that are safe on block), and Falcon has superior combos and setups off of throws due to his better physics in general. He also has a useful command grab that does 17% and can be used directly out of shield, and safe KO moves that are pretty powerful (well, Zelda does have safe KO moves too, but she fails at approaches).

Then you just have to argue his placement among guys like Link and Yoshi. He kinda competes with those characters in terms of available options.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Ike and Zelda definitely have more limited playstyles than Falcon, and I'd consider those two characters clearly worse than Falcon, although this needs to be proved by more tournament results outside of Ally doing random amazing stuff with Falcon. Ike and Zelda are WORSE at approaching and dealing with camping than Falcon (Falcon actually has approaches that are safe on block), and Falcon has superior combos and setups off of throws due to his better physics in general. He also has a useful command grab that does 17% and can be used directly out of shield, and safe KO moves that are pretty powerful (well, Zelda does have safe KO moves too, but she fails at approaches).

Then you just have to argue his placement among guys like Link and Yoshi. He kinda competes with those characters in terms of available options.

This.

A2 said it before I did. Zelda and Ike are much more limited than Falcon is. Yoshi, Link and Jigglypuff are 'probably' on the same terms with him if you level out the pros and cons, but I would say Falcon has it easier than those characters in most match-ups.

 

[Zeallyx]

Ike and Zelda definitely have more limited playstyles than Falcon, and I'd consider those two characters clearly worse than Falcon, although this needs to be proved by more tournament results outside of Ally doing random amazing stuff with Falcon. Ike and Zelda are WORSE at approaching and dealing with camping than Falcon (Falcon actually has approaches that are safe on block), and Falcon has superior combos and setups off of throws due to his better physics in general. He also has a useful command grab that does 17% and can be used directly out of shield, and safe KO moves that are pretty powerful (well, Zelda does have safe KO moves too, but she fails at approaches).

Then you just have to argue his placement among guys like Link and Yoshi. He kinda competes with those characters in terms of available options.

This.

A2 said it before I did. Zelda and Ike are much more limited than Falcon is. Yoshi, Link and Jigglypuff are 'probably' on the same terms with him if you level out the pros and cons, but I would say Falcon has it easier than those characters in most match-ups.

Falcon fails at approaching, too. You shouldnt forget that.

Link's projectiles and overall potential make him better than falcon, and Yoshi's reach, and overall better moveset, which makes Yoshi's playstyle less limited than falcon's, though arguably worse physics, put him above falcon too.

Zelda's tilts and reach, though she also lacks a good approach, puts her above falcon.

Ike's reach, damage dealing, though more limited playstyle still puts him above falcon.

And jigglypuff's aerials, aerial movement, recovery, and pound put her above falcon.

You guys are wrong.

 

[LuLLo]

Ike and Zelda definitely have more limited playstyles than Falcon, and I'd consider those two characters clearly worse than Falcon, although this needs to be proved by more tournament results outside of Ally doing random amazing stuff with Falcon. Ike and Zelda are WORSE at approaching and dealing with camping than Falcon (Falcon actually has approaches that are safe on block), and Falcon has superior combos and setups off of throws due to his better physics in general. He also has a useful command grab that does 17% and can be used directly out of shield, and safe KO moves that are pretty powerful (well, Zelda does have safe KO moves too, but she fails at approaches).

Then you just have to argue his placement among guys like Link and Yoshi. He kinda competes with those characters in terms of available options.

Falcon has moves that are safe on block? To some chars maybe, but anyone with a 5 frame ground attack hits him after whatever he does. As for Zelda, I don't know if she has anything safe, but Ike DEFINITLY has safe options, like Nair, Fair and retreating Bair(Snake's F-tilt doesn't even reach it). Play my Ike please, I'll show you .

 

[smashkng]

Ike's fair can be punished by powershielding, which isn't difficult because it has slow start-up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon fails at approaching, too. You shouldnt forget that.

Yeah Falcon sucks at approaching. He doesn't fail at it though. Ike and Zelda fail at approaching. Falcon has legitimate options. The other two really don't.

Link's projectiles and overall potential make him better than falcon, and Yoshi's reach, and overall better moveset, which makes Yoshi's playstyle less limited than falcon's, though arguably worse physics, put him above falcon too.

Sketchy argument at best. Link unlike Falcon is also worse in close range situations and has much less reward off of a much riskier grab, and Falcon is better at safe KO moves.

Yoshi however has a fail shield, a more limited approach, and worse kill moves, and he isn't as consistent at juggles. He's not just clearly better than Falcon (although I wouldn't disagree that he should be above Falcon, but in the same tier).

Zelda's tilts and reach, though she also lacks a good approach, puts her above falcon.

Her only good tilt really is D-tilt, which just hits low, and she also has a fail shieldgrab. Her recovery and physics in the air are worse than Falcon's too. Falcon has kill moves with better range than what Zelda has too.

Ike's reach, damage dealing, though more limited playstyle still puts him above falcon.

Ike's reach is only really seriously good on moves that are either ridiculously laggy, powershieldable on reaction, or both. He can do some decent damage off of Jabs, which are NOT safe on block (shieldgrabbing them is easy for any non-tether if you know the timing).

And jigglypuff's aerials, aerial movement, recovery, and pound put her above falcon.

I agree with this statement honestly. I think Jigglypuff is in fact significantly better than the other mentioned characters.

Falcon has moves that are safe on block? To some chars maybe, but anyone with a 5 frame ground attack hits him after whatever he does. As for Zelda, I don't know if she has anything safe, but Ike DEFINITLY has safe options, like Nair, Fair and retreating Bair(Snake's F-tilt doesn't even reach it). Play my Ike please, I'll show you .

You really are not punishing Falcon's well-spaced B-air or N-air on shield, and his U-tilt and D-smash are also safe on block.

Ike doesn't have anything that is safe on defenses that he can approach with. All his stuff that is "safe" relies on retreating and expecting them to not powershield certain things on reaction.

N-air is slow enough to powershield and doesn't have enough range or pushback to be safe on block without really really situational spacing.

F-air = powershield on reaction

Retreating B-air is retreating...anyone can retreat to make stuff safe, even Ganondorf. Ike doesn't have the tools to play a safe spacing game that lets him approach consistently in any way unless his opponent makes a mistake.

 

[lordhelmet]

Oh and guys, it's pretty pointless to argue with Knee, as he is omniscient in everything Falcon.

 

[LuLLo]

Neither does Falcon have a consistent approaching tool.
And I agree, Ike's approach options are lacking, but FF-Fairs are pretty reliable, mixing Nair with this attack is pretty solid, if you FF these two attacks, even if opponents Powershield, you can just jab to punish them for anything they throw at you, it clanks with alot of things and beats many. Also, it's disjointed, so it can't be punished during the attack (when spaced correctly). And you have to agree that a Powershielded FF-Fair at the tip is less risky than a Powershielded Nair from Falcon. This is not theorycrafting what I'm doing here, it's experience, my perfectly spaced Nairs with Falcon get punished by my friend's Snake everytime, while my Ike stays safe when perfectly spacing a Fair, the lag is really low for the range it has. Plus, Falcon gets hit out of Nair very easy, you don't even have to shield it if you have good tilts or smashes.

But anyways, Ike will stay right where he is now, Falcon will rise a few spots and leave Samus behind, I don't know about the other chars.

 

[Meru.]

Zelda is better than Falcon. Both of their recoveries are not so good, but Zelda's is better. Zelda has waaaay better range and hitboxes. Zelda is safer. Zelda kills better. They both can't approach really well. Falcon has a better air game. Zelda has a better ground game. Falcon has faster movement. Zelda has less rep. Overall, Zelda > Falcon.

Zelda and Ike are underrated, much and much more than Falcon. Bashing them just seems to be the new trend.

PS. How is Falcon - Wario even? :l

 

[Darky-Sama]

Falcon has his aerials, grabs and up tilts for approaching and spacing.

Ike is extremely limited when it comes to approaching, plus the fact that majority of his attacks have such terrible cool-down time doesn't make things that much easier for him. Punishing characters while they're in the air is the main thing Ike has going for him extremely well. I suppose pressuring opponents with Fair, Bair and Nair isn't half bad either while they're grounded. Other than that? Jab possibly.

Not that I'm getting at Ike or anything, we aren't much better. But the fact that we have some of the fastest punishing options in the game plays a pretty big role when it comes to those factors. Falcon's Bair, Nair and Uair are the main things he has for aerial approaching considering they can be spaced easily, plus the fact that they auto cancel helps a LOT. His grounded options... limited. Grabbing and spacing up tilt is probably his smartest option if hes forced to play defensively.

PS. How is Falcon - Wario even? :l

Falcon's air game limits Wario, and our grab release options on him make it a very, very difficult match-up for him.

Grab Release -> Up+B
Grab Release -> Knee

Those are the two main reasons. Plus, Falcon's just a quick character. It's not difficult to punish Wario with him at all.

 

[teluoborg]

I love Falcon but saying that he is better than Zelda means you obviously have never played a good Zelda. Seriously, she has the frame data of MK.

Also stop talking about approaching options. This is Brawl, no one should ever have to approach.

I also think that Falcon is underrated, but I can't think of him getting higher in the tier list.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I love Falcon but saying that he is better than Zelda means you obviously have never played a good Zelda. Seriously, she has the frame data of MK.

Also stop talking about approaching options. This is Brawl, no one should ever have to approach.

I also think that Falcon is underrated, but I can't think of him getting higher in the tier list.

Personally, I don't think he's better than Zelda. I know a really good Zelda that I play on a regular basis and he even gives my ZSS a lot of trouble with her. She's extremely underrated.

Ike though? Eh.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda is better than Falcon. Both of their recoveries are not so good, but Zelda's is better. Zelda has waaaay better range and hitboxes. Zelda is safer. Zelda kills better. They both can't approach really well. Falcon has a better air game. Zelda has a better ground game. Falcon has faster movement. Zelda has less rep. Overall, Zelda > Falcon.

Zelda and Ike are underrated, much and much more than Falcon. Bashing them just seems to be the new trend.

PS. How is Falcon - Wario even? :l

Falcon's recovery is better than Zelda's. They get about the same distance on recovery for the most part. Falcon's Up-B is better and he's less helpless when forced to land on stage, and he has a few more options for defending himself from edgeguards due to less situational aerials. Falcon also is MUCH better at reaching the edge from short distances thanks to SideB as well.

Way better range? If you mean she has a disjointed F-smash and U-air...I guess, but Falcon's D-smash is basically just as good as if not better than Zelda's F-smash, as it's also safe on block, and as I recall, is more powerful (not to mention the charge release is fast enough to punish crossovers on reaction).

Zelda has a gay D-tilt that can do funny stuff...I guess it's pretty good. Falcon however has a good Jab game, a better grab and followup game, and a gdlk Up-tilt that is safe on block and has stupid priority. Zelda wins ground game? Maybe, but it's really not a very significant win at all considering that she also has some pretty crippling limitations up close as well.

Both characters are not good at approaching, but Falcon has tools that are decent for approaching. Zelda doesn't. Falcon can throw out B-airs safely and the gdlk autocancel on them makes them stupidly safe. His N-air is a more tricky move, but it's also safe on block and it combos into almost anything he wants. Falcon also has the threat of mobility to approach, which lets him cover distance significantly faster to punish mistakes, while all Zelda can do to punish mistakes from a distance is hope they run into Din's Fire.

Zelda doesn't have the frame data of MK teloborg. Her frame data is more like G&W's honestly, slower on the startup, quicker on the cooldown, but she lacks the mobility and aerial options to really feasibly do anything to approach. And approach options are very relevant in Brawl, since what options you do have to deal with other campy playstyles are obviously neccessary to survive in this game.

And really, as sketchy as it sounds, mobility REALLY MATTERS A TON in this game. Sure movepool advantages are blatantly obvious, but this isn't a normal competitive fighter where motion and stages are one-dimensional. In any fighter, the fundamental goal is controlling space to gain the advantage, and ESPECIALLY in this series, solid mobility is crucial for that fundamental purpose, which is a huge advantage Falcon has over Zelda and Ike.

 

[smashkng]

Falcon still sucks. Lacking disjoint (or utilt, someone show the hitbox size of Falcon's utilt?) against Wario isn't a good thing at all, as it makes his Bite more godly. And about grab releases, don't forget that Falcon lacks grab range and the fact that Wario is very good at avoiding grabs+Wario himself has a CG on Falcon to 70%+fthrow for extra damage. But that's only one matchup, think on Falco, MK, Snake, etc.

Falcon's moveset is terrible. If he had Ganon's mobility he'd be almost as bad as Ganon, and without his huge killing power. IMO even with that mobility his moveset is so bad that he's still the 2nd worst character in the game. Also, don't forget that Falcon gets the landing lag glitch for up b and side b to the ledge.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon's shieldgrab is bad, and his pivot grab leaves much to be desired in terms of startup, but his dashgrab is good. Keep in mind, dashing shieldgrabs also exists and help Falcon a lot.

And yeah true, Falcon's moveset is bad, but it's not complete garbage. Falcon has good autocancels on most of his aerials and some sick followups off of throws and an above average Jab (Jab cancels to throws rack on like 16% and put your opponent in a followup position) and U-tilt, and his D-smash is a great kill move by virtue of being safe on block and massively powerful.

The RCO lag glitch really isn't that crippling honestly. Just find time to land with a N-air or B-air and there isn't much of a problem.

Honestly Falcon isn't automatically worthless against Falco and Snake (and in case you're wondering, I recently had time to play this matchup a lot against my friend who mains both characters). Against Metaknight and I guess Wario...yeah not much that can be done there against those mobile walls of priority. Falco however has issues killing Falcon who is very heavy and mobile. Falcon can also challenge Snake's Jab game with his own and can juggle Snake with relative ease, and his mobility is VERY helpful for dealing with Snake's camping.