Q&A Falco Q&A

[Meneks]

Hey guys critique my falco?
i might have more matches later(of me losing to zeus)
but watch this one for now...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKKXxuCCAo0&feature=channel_page

EDIT:
MORE MATCHES
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSYgclsd7wE&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzIkTa-LOtQ&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX09nlHlB6Y&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VriogpGjxk&feature=channel_page

critique/advice would be cool

 

[Falcinho]

@Mogwai:

shinehog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4kctu391-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhqZQSgu0J0

edit: with bair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnNvE0bSUlo

 

[TresChikon]

Yeah, where'd you find that vid? That's the exact same one I saw. The Shinehog one.

 

[Ben-Teezee]

subscribing to this thread cuz mango quit and that vid looks pretty sex but prob harder to implement with falco cuz of his slower run speed = less momentum towards the edge.

 

[Falcinho]

i knew that kjab once uploaded a clip called "shinehog" so i just searched for it on youtube ^^

 

[Ben-Teezee]

im confused why ud want to do that instead of shine>turnaround>wavedash back and then grab edge or aerial. it just seems safer, more controlled, and more practical cuz u could alternate wat u do for edgeguarding mindgames.

hey mogwai wtf do u do against ganon? i lost to tipman this weekend (granted he got 7th) but i beat him round 1 then he counterpicked battlefield and it was close match and then i took him to FD (i assumed he beat me cuz of his amazing tech skill on platforms) and got demolished by his amazing spacing with fairs. any suggestions?

 

[Stratford]

Slower runspeed means less momentum towards the edge but his slower jump also gives more time to slide off.

That kJab clip doing it into bair is pretty ****.

 

[Lovage]

im confused why ud want to do that instead of shine>turnaround>wavedash back and then grab edge or aerial. it just seems safer, more controlled, and more practical cuz u could alternate wat u do for edgeguarding mindgames.

the game changes all the time
the only reason it seems "safer" is because no one does it

even if it's really hard to do, once people can perform it, it becomes something you're going to have to learn if you want to be the fastest possible on the ledge or else you fall behind the metagame

 

[TresChikon]

It's too tricky for my slow hands. But ideally it is better since it accomplishes the same thing much faster.

 

[Mogwai]

i accidentally did it once tonight and it's definitely faster. I'm gonna start practicing soon.

Ganon is 100% about patience. You need to not feel bad about shooting him a lot and then learn the spacing where they like to try to space their fair vs. your nair. Basically, they like to flash their shield and then jump at you with fair, or jump backward and fade away from your nair and fair you, so you just need to learn what spacing they'll start looking for each of these and then learn how to make them just miss and then get in their face with nair shine.

 

[Meneks]

Hey guys critique my falco?
i might have more matches later(of me losing to zeus)
but watch this one for now...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKKXxuCCAo0&feature=channel_page

EDIT:
MORE MATCHES
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSYgclsd7wE&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzIkTa-LOtQ&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX09nlHlB6Y&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VriogpGjxk&feature=channel_page

critique/advice would be cool

critique ?

 

[TresChikon]

Switch off the auotpilot. You mispaced alot of aerials, and you shouldn't be handing that much momentum and control to such a bad Fox. Getting naired out of your lasers is definitely a bad thing, so learn to bait. Predictable FHs are bad, Zeus caught you a bunch of times on that.

You were lucky that marth wasn't keen on grabs, otherwise poor spacing on your part would've seen some nasty u-throw - utilt platform nonsense

Try playing good Foxes and Marth's, any error in spacing or predictability really stands out in these matchups.

 

[KAOSTAR]

@Mogwai:

shinehog:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4kctu391-U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhqZQSgu0J0

edit: with bair http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnNvE0bSUlo

haha, sooo glad there were vids already so I didnt look like a ******* lol.

 

[Falcinho]

For obvious reasons the shinehog thingy is easier to pull off on FoD so I'd practice it there first

 

[KAOSTAR]

Ive heard that you slide more on FOD, but Im not sure.

well now that I know officially what happened lol I should be able to do it.

thanks 4 everything tho

 

[TresChikon]

Some people swear by it, I think its more slippery than other stages too.

What do you guys think?

 

[Ben-Teezee]

the game changes all the time
the only reason it seems "safer" is because no one does it

even if it's really hard to do, once people can perform it, it becomes something you're going to have to learn if you want to be the fastest possible on the ledge or else you fall behind the metagame

id have to disagree with you there. wavedashing back is safer for many reason the primary one being it gives u the most options and control.

its like argueing l-canceling vs edge/platform canceling, sure the edge canceling is FASTER doesnt make it safer, and doesnt give u the same options and control, anybody can do both at high level but how many ppl do u see relying on platform canceling in tournaments apart from when they NEED it on a recovery? (ss comes to mind but not many more).

i dont really want to A) run at the edge and shine as falco cuz it doesnt serve any purpose apart from being needed to turn around(where as with fox it pushes them off) B) try to edge cancel my jump and potentially wind either out of position to edgehog, off the stage with my second jump used, falling off the stage with no options to edgeguard other than a weak b-air(since anything else would cause u to suicide since this is falco not fox).

meh just my 2 cents on the matter, doin shine turnaround wavedash maybe a tad slower but gives u more control and options and even if u mess up, apart from airdodging to ur death(if u did it right on the tip), ur still in a favorable position.

if anything just learn to do that **** pc does where u walk at the edge and turn around last second

 

[Ryan-K]

i just run and do a reverse laser or roll then jump LOL

 

[Ben-Teezee]

ryan i saw u at the saffron tourney but didnt get to play u, u still in LI? u should come to queens sometime and train wit me and the kids! (warriorknigt and company )

and yea i definitely reverse laser like a fiend i love it, get at the tomohawks *****!

 

[Ryan-K]

nah i aint in li anymore what part of queens u live in..pm me lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

id have to disagree with you there. wavedashing back is safer for many reason the primary one being it gives u the most options and control.

its like argueing l-canceling vs edge/platform canceling, sure the edge canceling is FASTER doesnt make it safer, and doesnt give u the same options and control, anybody can do both at high level but how many ppl do u see relying on platform canceling in tournaments apart from when they NEED it on a recovery? (ss comes to mind but not many more).

i dont really want to A) run at the edge and shine as falco cuz it doesnt serve any purpose apart from being needed to turn around(where as with fox it pushes them off) B) try to edge cancel my jump and potentially wind either out of position to edgehog, off the stage with my second jump used, falling off the stage with no options to edgeguard other than a weak b-air(since anything else would cause u to suicide since this is falco not fox).

meh just my 2 cents on the matter, doin shine turnaround wavedash maybe a tad slower but gives u more control and options and even if u mess up, apart from airdodging to ur death(if u did it right on the tip), ur still in a favorable position.

if anything just learn to do that **** pc does where u walk at the edge and turn around last second

generally leaving the stage with falco is not the safest option. But sometimes you should do it, and sometimes the risks are low. The safest option is not always the best choice. Riskier options often have bigger payouts. edguarding off stage usually gets the kill right away where as on stage/safe they usually try multiple times to recover.

I like risker things when used in moderation. Variations of that shine turnaround bair are used all the time. like when zhu did it against m2k except he did a rising bair and recovered.

 

[Ben-Teezee]

im not sure what ur saying.. go watch the vids on the last page, after EVERY aerial fox did, he fell straight down off the stage so far that he could only recover cuz he was fox, thats not risk reward with falco if u want to suicide for a kill just jump off and aim your d-air. the shine turnaround is fine but it relies on u doin 2 cancels in one at a specific moment in a chain of commands executed, and while im sure if someone went home and practiced it for an entire day nonstop and could do it perfectly, when they played a tournament match they would still just hop to the ledge or wavedash back.

the shine bair isnt wat i was talking about as thats using ur 2nd jump exactly when u want and not relying on having a tiny couple of frames to cancel or waste ur jump.

zhu did the rising bair to m2k's shiek after doin shine>turnaround> WAVEDASH back, soooooo yea.

 

[TresChikon]

The point you guys are trying to make are literally just 15 frames apart.

Shine turnaround wavedash and ledge-cancel JC shine turnaround yield the exact same options:

Falco on the ledge.

One is just faster. There's just too many ways to grab the ledge to really argue about. Just point and choose your own.

The only thing in question is consistency, I can't do either of those shine turnaround methods perfectly, so I'm probably just going to leave those options to the quick-fingered players.

So sure, KAOSTAR's way is better than the shine turnaround wavedash by 15 frames, but it's up to the player to determine if the extra speed is worth going through the learning curve of the technique.

If you have the hands to do it, by all means do it. It's just that not everyone has the ability to fap at 10,000x overfukenturbodrive speed.

Me? I just roll and jump.

 

[Ryan-K]

nah man if you do shine turnaround dj bair you can get the strong hit and make it back easy. ive done this edgeguard in tourney before it ***** other falco especially hard.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea, pretty much all I was saying is that there are risks involved and that method although seems good, its really up to your individual consistency like chikon said. Sometimes the payoffs are much greater for riskier tricker more difficult methods.

you should still have your jump and its no different than doing a run off bair and jumping back. just make sure you dont fast fall

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i read half of the first post just now because i was bored.
even though i don't main falco, and even though i already knew almost everything i just read,
i feel as though i've still gained from it.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Is the shinegrab safe on shields??

I was doing it a lot yesterday in some friendlies and a couple of times they rolled after the shine and one time he even shield grabbed me out of it.

Maybe I wasn't doing it fast enough?

 

[Meneks]

Is the shinegrab safe on shields??

I was doing it a lot yesterday in some friendlies and a couple of times they rolled after the shine and one time he even shield grabbed me out of it.

Maybe I wasn't doing it fast enough?

It always works when i do it...
Perhaps you aren't doing it fast enough?
Either that or he actually pressed grab before you could press grab and he was able to grab you first?

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

It would be nice to know the frame data for it. =O

 

[AvengerAngel]

You can get shield grabbed while trying to shine grab x(
The trick is trying to mix it up with other options like standard pillaring, retreating aerials, multishines and waveshines. If you keep your opponents guessing they'll never know for sure when it will be safe to go for a shield grab xP



Edit: btw I think the frame data is something like

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9 Start JC grab
10
11
12
13
14
15 Opponent gets grabbed

I *suppose* it's something like that.
SCOTU has posted Fox' shinegrab frame data in the Fox board:

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8 Start JC Grab
9
10
11
12
13
14 Grab "hits"

 

[TresChikon]

Some people would prefer to time something OoS or a grab during your dair, so they just sit in their shileds during the shine, which makes shinegrabs a pretty safe maneuver.

Only bad thing is that Falco's throws stink.

Hey I gotta a question about the different timings of pillars.

So there's early, late and a typical timing.

Late gives you more shieldstun at the end to cover your butt.
Early can cover anything preemptive.

So what's the point of doing a typical pillar, I can't see any advantages at all.

Not sure if I worded that too well.

 

[unknown522]

Ryan-K, I challenge you to a MM.

Ryan-K vs Ryan-F all dai!!!

 

[Mogwai]

You can get shield grabbed while trying to shine grab x(
The trick is trying to mix it up with other options like standard pillaring, retreating aerials, multishines and waveshines. If you keep your opponents guessing they'll never know for sure when it will be safe to go for a shield grab xP



Edit: btw I think the frame data is something like

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9 Start JC grab
10
11
12
13
14
15 Opponent gets grabbed

I *suppose* it's something like that.
SCOTU has posted Fox' shinegrab frame data in the Fox board:

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5
6
7 Start Jump
8 Start JC Grab
9
10
11
12
13
14 Grab "hits"

Your frame data is correct, but your conclusion is wrong. Shine Grab has a 2 frame advantage over shield grab and Falco is tied for fastest grab in the game (with a bunch of characters, at 7 frames), so your grab should always be quicker. Roll and spot dodge are the standard ways around shine grab (or quick up B OoS if your character has one or shine OoS for Fox).

@TresChikon: There are many more timings than just those 3. The idea is to just mix up when the aerial comes according to their responses. Typically, people try to break shield pressure after your shine -> aerial, so late timing is usually the best way to start until they figure out to go after your aerial -> shine instead, at which point you can start your next aerial sooner. The idea with going somewhere in the middle is to give them 2 small windows of opportunity as opposed to one large one, which is actually optimal vs. people who are a little slow out of shield.

 

[AvengerAngel]

Your frame data is correct, but your conclusion is wrong.

Lulz I checked the frame data after I wrote that and I forgot to fix it. A frame perfect shine grab is not shieldgrabable, yeah xP

 

[TresChikon]

There are many more timings than just those 3.

Ooh, then I've been seriously limiting myself.

2 small windows of opportunity as opposed to one large one

Wow, I've never thought of it that way. Thanks so much Mogwai.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Mogwai, Im actually a little confused as to whats happening on frames 6 and 7.

I understand how the frames work and **** but Im not familiar with the chart written out that like(green and red ?)

 

[TresChikon]

Green means the opponent is in shieldstun, red means they are not.

 

[Alukard]

hey mogwai ... FRAMEEEEEE DATAAAAA !!!!! <3 lolol

 

[KAOSTAR]

Green means the opponent is in shieldstun, red means they are not.

good **** then

is there somewhere I can find a bunch of charts like this?

 

[Stratford]

Scotu did some work.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=109595