Q&A Falco Q&A

[Proverbs]

Yeah, I know it's slow, it just looks cool-ish. Was only curious because I never see people doing it =/ Thanks.

 

[puckgood]

Not about teams, just curious about something. Other day I was playing and was just messing around and noticed that you can edgehog by using FireBird horizontally along the ground if you space it right. Has anyone ever tried using this to edgehog when they're being really flashy/stupid?

Just curious ;3

Was this an April's Fools joke?

Question: advice on how to defeat a peach/ic's/ness... I know, the last one is pathetic.

 

[Mogwai]

Well what about those matchups is giving you problems? More lasers is generally sound advice vs. Peach and Ness. Spike or Shine off the top Nana is generally sound advice vs. ICs. But I can't really be helpful off of 0 information about how they're giving you trouble.

 

[Proverbs]

Was this an April's Fools joke?

Question: advice on how to defeat a peach/ic's/ness... I know, the last one is pathetic.

Joking about the question, or that Falco can do it? Falco can Firebird from standing on FD and if you space it right he'll just barely go over the edge and grab it. That's true. As for my question, nope that wasn't a joke either. I haven't seen anyone do it and just happened to do it myself.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Against Ness do moves. Like, thousands of them. Make sure every other move is a laser. Or more than that. Keep doing moves. Combo him with those moves. **** his horrible recovery. Do more moves. Shoot him more. Repeat.

No, really.

 

[soap]

I wanna do a yo-yo glitch before i die. i've read about and seen it done, but i cannot figure out that stupid timing to save my life.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

me neither!

i sat and tried for like an hour and a half and just kept failing.

 

[Mogwai]

Against Ness do moves. Like, thousands of them. Make sure every other move is a laser. Or more than that. Keep doing moves. Combo him with those moves. **** his horrible recovery. Do more moves. Shoot him more. Repeat.

No, really.

This is the most perfect Ness advice ever given to Falcos.

I wanna do a yo-yo glitch before i die. i've read about and seen it done, but i cannot figure out that stupid timing to save my life.

me neither!

i sat and tried for like an hour and a half and just kept failing.

lol, I had to play some Ness player at No John's Biweekly and he took me to Green Greens to try to set up a yo you glitch, but instead I just did things and he died.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

ive been yo yo glitched....its annoying.

 

[Proverbs]

ive been yo yo glitched....its annoying.

St. Viers did it once to me...except he didn't do anything with it. I just hit the trapbox and that was the end of it <.<;;

 

[Binx]

I got yoyo glitched and afterwards I was like WHAT!!! crazy cause i'd never actually seen it done, nor did I have any clue how it worked. I then had him teach me it and then i did it in a friendly to some noob who had the same reaction I did.

Minus the desire to learn it.

But yeah, Falco basically just has to do stuff to any character and he wins provided he doesn't get grabbed or knocked down.

 

[Ballistics]

Ive decided recently to stop fastfalling falco's short hop down air and its worked wonders for my timing and overall flow of my falco, what do you think about fastfalling his short hop downair mogwai?

 

[Mogwai]

Ive decided recently to stop fastfalling falco's short hop down air and its worked wonders for my timing and overall flow of my falco, what do you think about fastfalling his short hop downair mogwai?

How does not fast falling help your Falco?

Objectively, it's a terrible idea. Staying in the air long in a shffled dair doesn't really do much. The big problem is that if you start the dair early and then don't fast fall, you will be hitting with the weak hitbox, which has less shield stun and is susseptible to crouch canceling. In combo situations, even if you want to hit with the weak dair hitbox, you should still always fast fall to line up your next attack ASAP.

 

[Ballistics]

How does not fast falling help your Falco?

Objectively, it's a terrible idea. Staying in the air long in a shffled dair doesn't really do much. The big problem is that if you start the dair early and then don't fast fall, you will be hitting with the weak hitbox, which has less shield stun and is susseptible to crouch canceling. In combo situations, even if you want to hit with the weak dair hitbox, you should still always fast fall to line up your next attack ASAP.

yes I see your point and that is what I would have said some time ago too, but try it!

I am talking most about the running short hop downair that comes with running around and lasering an opponent so it is the weak hit of the dair, but even this weak hit allows me to shine before a crouch canceled move

When i usually try to fastfall this, eventually i mess up the timing and miss the L cancel but when I dont worry about fastfalling it always works, they still cant seem to shield grab or attack like when you do do the fastfall. So I came to the conclusion of just not fastfalling

You might not be able to try this out but I encourage you to, I realize objectively it sounds stupid but Id like ur feedback to trying it.

 

[noodles]

my falco gets sheild grab whenever i miss a fast fall. i try DIing back but marths grab range is long

 

[TheKneeOfJustice]

yes I see your point and that is what I would have said some time ago too, but try it!

I am talking most about the running short hop downair that comes with running around and lasering an opponent so it is the weak hit of the dair, but even this weak hit allows me to shine before a crouch canceled move

When i usually try to fastfall this, eventually i mess up the timing and miss the L cancel but when I dont worry about fastfalling it always works, they still cant seem to shield grab or attack like when you do do the fastfall. So I came to the conclusion of just not fastfalling

You might not be able to try this out but I encourage you to, I realize objectively it sounds stupid but Id like ur feedback to trying it.

If they aren't crouch canceling or grabbing/shield grabbing out of the weak hitbox, it needs to be said, you aren't playing good players.

 

[Ballistics]

my falco gets sheild grab whenever i miss a fast fall. i try DIing back but marths grab range is long

hmm maybe you aren't running and doing the jump, maybe your just standing right next to him and youre jumping straight up?

because that aerial definitely needs to be delayed or you will get shield grabbed

 

[Mogwai]

yes I see your point and that is what I would have said some time ago too, but try it!

I am talking most about the running short hop downair that comes with running around and lasering an opponent so it is the weak hit of the dair, but even this weak hit allows me to shine before a crouch canceled move

When i usually try to fastfall this, eventually i mess up the timing and miss the L cancel but when I dont worry about fastfalling it always works, they still cant seem to shield grab or attack like when you do do the fastfall. So I came to the conclusion of just not fastfalling

You might not be able to try this out but I encourage you to, I realize objectively it sounds stupid but Id like ur feedback to trying it.

well, I used to do this and still sometimes to, it just gets me *****. people who can cc grab wreck you for doing this, as do other Foxes and Falcos with cc shine, as do people with fast dsmashes (Peach, Samus, Doc, ICs all come to mind...). And it will lead to your dair getting shield grabbed more, since you'll hit the top of people's shields with the weak hit sometimes and this is a really easy shield grab.

essentially, what I'm saying is that I understand that it's easier and feels more natural sometimes, but ultimately, it's just worse and rather than adapting to using it, you should try to break the habit of doing it and re-train your short hop dair to be a shffled dair.

EDIT: lol, KoJ givin' it to you straight

 

[Ballistics]

well, I used to do this and still sometimes to, it just gets me *****. people who can cc grab wreck you for doing this, as do other Foxes and Falcos with cc shine, as do people with fast dsmashes (Peach, Samus, Doc, ICs all come to mind...). And it will lead to your dair getting shield grabbed more, since you'll hit the top of people's shields with the weak hit sometimes and this is a really easy shield grab.

essentially, what I'm saying is that I understand that it's easier and feels more natural sometimes, but ultimately, it's just worse and rather than adapting to using it, you should try to break the habit of doing it and re-train your short hop dair to be a shffled dair.

Yea thanks man Ill keep that in mind, if I start to get punished Ill probably end up going back to worrying about fastfalling. Im really good at it its just Id rather not if I dont have to.


LONG LIVE MELEE!

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

Mogwai, you gonna be at Spoc VII? At RoM we only played two matches, you like 3 stocked me on dreamland and then on yoshi's i was winning til the next til last stock and then SDed at 0 and got one stocked. I felt very depressed after that, because I felt like it was a great match up until that point.

On a help note, when you're on platforms, adn you dair someone's shield, do you just pillar like normal, or do you drop through the platform and shine and then jump? I do the later because there's no lag from the double jump, so i feel like i can pressure them faster, and differently, and if they get hit by the shine i can immediately respond. The only bad thing i can think about it is if i screw up and they somehow manage to jump out of their shield and hit me between the shine and dair, i've used my double, but that's never happened to me. What do you think of this?

 

[Mogwai]

Mogwai, you gonna be at Spoc VII? At RoM we only played two matches, you like 3 stocked me on dreamland and then on yoshi's i was winning til the next til last stock and then SDed at 0 and got one stocked. I felt very depressed after that, because I felt like it was a great match up until that point.

nope, i got date change ***** and can't make the 18th. I'm sure we'll run into each other at something.

On a help note, when you're on platforms, adn you dair someone's shield, do you just pillar like normal, or do you drop through the platform and shine and then jump? I do the later because there's no lag from the double jump, so i feel like i can pressure them faster, and differently, and if they get hit by the shine i can immediately respond. The only bad thing i can think about it is if i screw up and they somehow manage to jump out of their shield and hit me between the shine and dair, i've used my double, but that's never happened to me. What do you think of this?

well, you're still picking where you give them frames out of shield stun to work with, it's just a possible mix up to drop through the platform and shine to give them extra frames between dair and shine and less frames between the shine and dair.

However, since I'm now a double shine convert, I don't do the platform drop stuff anyway, I just dair -> double shine or space dair and get under the platform (since being below your opponent is generally advantageous, just not in dittos and sometimes vs. other guys).

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

How do you prefer to do double shines? Sliding the buttons just feels so awkward for me, I usually use the stick, but I don't do it consistently. Nothing a little practice couldn't fix I guess.

I'm no ProsmasherTim lol. I don't understand how he can do like 120 fast JC shines with fox.

 

[Mogwai]

I just do Y -> B for double shines. It's just about getting some muscle memory with however you find comfortable.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

I guess so.

Optimally if you can double shine as long as you want, the only way for the opponent to escape is a roll correct? On a platform, couldn't you just follow the roll with a waveshine? You would always end up getting the shine, I guess the only question is whether you want it or not, but it's almost always a good thing.

 

[Mogwai]

Yea, I think roll is the only option against frame perfect multishining.

If you had inhuman tech skill and 1 frame reaction time, I wouldn't be surprised if a combination of multishining and waveshining would be perfect, inescapable shield pressure against most of the cast, but that's really not worth talking about since it's so far from even the most technically impressive players out there.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

Yeah, but that's why I mentioned it on platforms. Lots of players can multisine shield pressure with falco, and if you're on a platform the reaction time needed is vastly decreased because the roll gets caught on the platforms and barely goes anywhere, especially on small platforms like YS or PS. i think it's quite feasible.

 

[Mogwai]

it's not

I mean, it's theoretically possible and really not incredibly inventive right? so if it were practically possible, why don't we see people doing it?

I mean, at my level of reactions and tech skill, I commit to doubleshining long before hitting the buttons, it's progammed into my mind as the next thing I'm doing. To be able to change what you're doing based on a few frames of spotting a roll and to change your action is incredibly difficult.

 

[Mogwai]

ive been yo yo glitched....its annoying.

is your avatar from Tenchi Muyo? I remember liking that show and I think I remember something like that in the show, but I'm a little fuzzy on it all.

****, my bad, double post ftl...

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Yeah it is good call its ryo-oki!

yeah its a good show but i ahvent watched it in ages...its really hard to find anywhere

 

[soap]

To be able to change what you're doing based on a few frames of spotting a roll and to change your action is incredibly difficult.

i can kinda do this with basic stuff, but when there is a semi-difficult commmand sequence your mind kinda needs more prep time.

if u can doubleshine very second-nature that it is like wavedashing for u, then it is feasible.

 

[Mogwai]

lol, yea, I just remember it on TV when I went through a little anime phase. I enjoyed Tenchi, Outlaw Star, and Gundam Wing back in the day, and then I just sorta strayed from anime cause I felt like the other stuff I watched (DBZ, Naruto) were a complete waste. Then I watched Champloo and it was sweet.

...then I found $20.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

on Cartoon Network on its Toonami greatness it went Sailor Moon at 4, Reboot at 4:30, DBZ at 5 and 5:30 and Tenchi at 6.

They then switched Reboot for Gundam Wing...which is amazing

edit: i recently just started getting into anime thanks to a certain sheik main.

 

[Mogwai]

i can kinda do this with basic stuff, but when there is a semi-difficult commmand sequence your mind kinda needs more prep time.

if u can doubleshine very second-nature that it is like wavedashing for u, then it is feasible.

well, even godly human reaction time is like .1 seconds = 6 frames = I don't think it's feasible.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

that'd be fairly ridiculous...by fairly ridiculous i mean not doable.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

well, even godly human reaction time is like .1 seconds = 6 frames = I don't think it's feasible.

6 frames is merely the time it takes for falco to complete his jump animation and start the wavedash.

Rolls are what, 45 frames or more? on a small platform, you could double shine a few times extra and still have time to waveshine over.

when i get a chance I'll start practicing this and see if it is possible. It would be pretty much broken though if someone could do it, basically it would mean if your shield got daired by falco on a platform you would either have a broken shield or get shined.

so my online reaction time is around .2 seconds, or 12 frames, guess i wouldn't have much room for error.

also, i've been wondering whether a shine canceled into a grab would always work. if you fastfall dair shine, and then jc grab, is the shield stun from the shine enough to let you grab without fear of a shield grab?

 

[KAOSTAR]

Yea, I think roll is the only option against frame perfect multishining.

If you had inhuman tech skill and 1 frame reaction time, I wouldn't be surprised if a combination of multishining and waveshining would be perfect, inescapable shield pressure against most of the cast, but that's really not worth talking about since it's so far from even the most technically impressive players out there.

Wouldnt you get pushed away from the shine? I just cant remember lol If it pushes u at all.

If the shield stun is greater than the wavedash frames [start up and cool down] then you should be able to do it infinitely. I think in that case you would want to switch to a light shield and if you slide away roll or do something to gain space.

 

[Mogwai]

don't feel like addressing the rest of your post, but I'll believe the double shine waveshine perfect shield pressure non-sense when I see it.

I made a post about this somewhere else....

also, i've been wondering whether a shine canceled into a grab would always work. if you fastfall dair shine, and then jc grab, is the shield stun from the shine enough to let you grab without fear of a shield grab?

there it is

multishining has a lot of utility. Done perfectly, it only gives them 2 frames out of shield stun, as opposed to at least 9/10 frames in a standard pillar. Shine JC grab is excellent to a point, but gives them noticeably more frames to roll or do anything else OOS, and is laggier, which means they can punish it easier if it doesn't connect. Shine JC grab is a good counter for people who like to shield grab or WD out of shield a lot, but is a poor counter vs. faster options OOS (shine, upBs), to which you must learn to space or approach vs. shields differently, or learn to multishine their shield. After the 2nd shine, they are less useful, since most opponents have either committed to rolling (escapes the shield pressure regardless) or an OoS option (will get hit by the 2nd shine), but still technically good, just not practically terribly much better than continuing the shield pressure (or combo if you connected) with a dair.

If the shield stun is greater than the wavedash frames [start up and cool down] then you should be able to do it infinitely. I think in that case you would want to switch to a light shield and if you slide away roll or do something to gain space.

it's not even close. just think about when you waveshine someone's shield, they have quite a few frames to grab.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

That only applies if they get pushed away. The push from the shine is incredibly slight unless they light shield, I think unless they were tangent to the shine practically their shield would break before they got pushed back enough. Even if that were the case, it's possible to move while multishining, (at least it is with fox, maybe not falco?), watch no chillout, the prosmashertim combo video, he does that realtime with fox. You could follow their shield movement with that.

Anyways, that's enough theoretical talk, i've had all my questions answered.

Actually I do have one more. Sometimes when I hit a grounded opponent with the dair, they lean back and don't get hit by the shine. I was wondering what caused this. Is it a)me hitting them with the very edge of the dair so i'm simply not landing close enough. b)smash DI away from me, (can't be normal DI, since they have no knockback, only stun, unless normal DI affects the animation of the character getting stunned?) or c), does it have to do with the character i hit? It seems to happen a lot more against peach than say, fox/falco. Or is a combination of those?

 

[Mogwai]

That only applies if they get pushed away. The push from the shine is incredibly slight unless they light shield, I think unless they were tangent to the shine practically their shield would break before they got pushed back enough. Even if that were the case, it's possible to move while multishining, (at least it is with fox, maybe not falco?), watch no chillout, the prosmashertim combo video, he does that realtime with fox. You could follow their shield movement with that.

Anyways, that's enough theoretical talk, i've had all my questions answered.

Actually I do have one more. Sometimes when I hit a grounded opponent with the dair, they lean back and don't get hit by the shine. I was wondering what caused this. Is it a)me hitting them with the very edge of the dair so i'm simply not landing close enough. b)smash DI away from me, (can't be normal DI, since they have no knockback, only stun, unless normal DI affects the animation of the character getting stunned?) or c), does it have to do with the character i hit? It seems to happen a lot more against peach than say, fox/falco. Or is a combination of those?

It's usually A, sometime combined with them couch canceling which for some characters makes them do a weird lean back animation (Peach/Samus most notably). B is also possible. So yea, could be any combination of them. I usually don't find this too hard to react to though, so if you see the spacing is off when your dair connects, I suggest dtilting instead.

 

[Pakman]

What are the pros and cons of using nair shine as opposed to dair shine to end a shl approach?

I watched the Silent Spectre vs Zhu set from Mango Juice and Zhu seemed to do a lot of nair shines. I was wondering if it is a versus falcon thing or more of a generic strategy.