Falco Matchup #1: Ganondorf

[Choice]

i was messing around with the "flipman" thing today and that's pretty sweet vs people that don't expect it xD. i disagree with being in a position where you have to shield though, every time i hit someone with it they had positioned themselves too far up though i guess they didn't know they should shield. 15 frames lag is more than enough to run in and punish too so its like the risk is unnecessary. technically you have more frames than that because once the hitbox moves past the front of ganon you have nothing to worry about.

 

[SN Viper]

It's better than not knowing.
Don't hate.

Nahh! Beat Gannon with common sense. And if they still lose.. Well then I think they need their IQ's evaluated.

But mad respect for going over this MU. Too bad you cant get your life back that you wasted taking this seriously.

-DWHO

(dwho on vipers accout)

 

[Beat11]

Wow, nice work Falcos! This discussion was pretty damn elaborate even tho no Ganon mains helped out. I never thought i see the day were a top tier character takes a low tier character MU discussion seriously (even though some people tried to rush thru this anyway). Someone get Verm or some other Ganon pro for their input if they have any. smashkng seems to be the only one Ganon user here.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Verm was checking this MU thread yesterday maybe he feel he didn't need to put any input on it IDK but we'll see.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

This is a very, very hard matchup for us.

We are going to intentionally get lasered for a bit. Why? After 50% you can't CG us or even get a guaranteed spike out of DThrow anymore.

At any point before about 60% on FD, DThrow to Spike WILL NOT kill us. It just won't happen. Double Jump to buffered Up-B will save us every time. After that, though, we're very much dead.

Lasers are the reason why this MU is +4 for you. Without lasers, this would probably be around +2. But if you camp us hard enough, your relative lack of kill power ceases to matter when we're at 200%.

Another thing to remember: We kill you at ~80%. Our moves do a lot of damage. Never underestimate our ledge options either. UAir is frame 6, and a potent kill move. Protip: It's our fastest move that matters against you. Period. Our Grab is frame 7, Jab frame 8. NAir first hit is faster, but not all that relevant unless you're on a platform above us, at which point expect to eat about 20%.

Also he's not really a scientist, he just looked at the Ganon board MU thread and took notes.

 

[-DR3W-]

Look at what we have accomplished in just a few days. A character that we thought had nothing to it was analyzed in-depth. I'm proud. :')

Let's keep it up.

 

[Beat11]

Well, seems like to me the MU is a 90/10 Falco adv. Some may disagree but it really doesn't matter.

Ganon has immense trouble approaching campy Falcos due to his lack of speed and mobility. He has no relaible way to punish a SH laser and no good pressure options to keep Falco from using it. Phantasm is a hard move for Ganon to deal with but it can be Ganon's opening for an assault if the Falco is to predictable with it. Jab is stupid good in CQC against Ganon. He has no moves that compete with it and is forced to SDI and retreat from it. Ganon can take advantage of one of Falco's weakpoints in his ground game, the mid range area. Falco's only reactions from this distance are Phantasm and reflector. Ganon can punish either one via prediction. I don't know if Ganon can relaibly Gerudo tech chase Falco or not. Dtilt has awesome range from mid range and it is safe for Ganon to use this on shiled if spaced properly. Falco can easily edgegaurd Ganon with lasers to force an unwanted action from him. I don't know if everyone was just finding this out or not but since Ganon's upB has virtually no hitstun, every character can hit him RIGHT after it with a fast aerial move. For Falco, this is a chance for a spike. Intentionally getting hit by his upB can set up for a spike instant kill moment at higher percents. Be careful as they can get you with a sideB instead. Ganon's main boon in this MU is his ability to rack up damage and kill Falco insanely early. Dair x2 to Uair does about 45% to 55% (i can't remember) on Falco from one read alone. The fact that Falco WILL die to Ganon at 90% doesn't help this. Thus, it is important to not take this MU lightly despite the huge advantage. Get to careless and you'll end up losing a stock real quick. But if you play it right, Ganon should get completly shut down by Mr. Lombardi's lasers and "Jab,jab" tactics.

Sounds like a good 90/10 to me.

 

[Choice]

i feel like the numbers are irrelevant, but i'd say more like 8-2. you don't have to know the numbers to know that we do really well vs ganon and that's pretty much what you should take from mu discussions anyways, as well as why.

 

[Beat11]

True but I've always felt like the numbers were like a "pre" statement of how hard you will have to study and train for the MU to be able to win it. That's why I've always put them out there for the new guys/ those unfamiliar with the MU to know exactly how hard they have to try. Once you get past that tho, the numbers start getting irrelevant and people tend to just pointlessly throw them out there. I get your saying tho and I'm aware of whats more important.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Just remember: For every mistake you make, you need to be very afraid of the consequences.

Also keep in mind the Stomp on shield is -12 for us, so if we cross up with it, basically your options are... turn around grab? That's about it.

 

[swordsaint]

again, -12 technically, then you have the frames it takes you to hit the ground +1/2 frames to shield spot dodge as your first action.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'll go as far as to say this is in the top 5 worst MUs in the game, which I could just as well suffice if I said it's Ganon's top 5 worst lol.

Three things about Falco cripples us--not just bad, since he has a lot of extra "bad" things on us, but three things that absolutely cripple us. They are:

-His phantasm. It has to be read perfectly for anything to be done about it. Falco's phantasm lets him get away with from murder. We have no answer to his phantasm beyond our ingenuity as players to circumvent and read. It goes too far too quickly.

-His lasers. The worst thing about the MU, which I'm sure everyone already knew. The only thing Ganon has that can deal with Falco's approaches or punishes for our approaches are jab, and even that's pretty unreliable. We take 70% of our damage in this MU from lasers, and the lasers just come out too quickly and without any real frontal zoning options since the lasers preclude RARs, we're solely reliant on a solid read, with, usually, very little payoff.

-His jab. Not much needs explaining here. His jab clashes with or outranges most of what we can throw out. Even if it didn't, it outframes everything we've got by a nautical mile.

So, as we can see, Falco covers every option Ganon has due to both speed issues and poor zoning options from the anterior. He's got us at long range, medium range and close range. As so many before me have stated, our only hope in this MU is to be the undoubtedly superior player by no less than three-fold.

The good things we have (if you can call them good in the face of the cons aforementioned) are the fact that Falco's recovery is pretty easy to cut off as Ganon (it's how I get my kills on Falco at least) and that Falco really can't kill us easily with the exception of a CG, which really shouldn't kill us to begin with unless the Falco is smart and reads the Ganon's recovery mix-ups. At high percents, Falco has a really tough time sealing the deal if the Ganon keeps his shield up. Though, Ganon doesn't have a much easier time killing for the most part, primarily because we only have a handful of moves that meet the stringent zoning demands of this MU, so our DAirs and such will be staler than Falco's bread.

So, abridged:

Good for Falco:

-Has the CG and a fairly reliable kill off of it (yes, even with DI!)
-Lasers to kill approaches
-Phantasms to relieve any kind of pressure
-Jab to put some room between him and Ganon at close range.

Good for Ganon:

-We can gimp you guys pretty well
-We're hard to kill

It's 90:10 in my opinion. If the Falco is top-tier, there's no reason Ganon should even have time to cut a fart, let alone the space or wherewithall.

 

[Clai]

That's definitely a very interesting get-up option, and honestly i had no idea ganon could do so. I noticed though that this video has the ganon doing so without having landing penalty from his up b or side b and am wondering if he'd be able to do anything so quickly afterwards when he does have it. also if you stand further back, it shouldn't be an issue though it would probably be one of his safest ledge options if he does not get much lag from landing penalty.

i'm not really trying to put ganon down as a character or nothing, i'm just being realistic. i honestly would be content if ganon much better than i think he is or if something changes for him and he benefits greatly, but i feel like i understand his limitations decently well.

Ganondorf has RCO lag whenever he recovers to the ledge, so he won't have anything that comes out too quickly regardless of how he gets back to the stage. I would understand that you would think that Ganondorf is incredibly limited in his ledge recovery options, since a lot of Ganons still tend to ledge jump the vast majority of the time. Although the timing is pretty strict, Ganondorf can use any aerial or B-move to get back to the stage except his down-B for obvious reasons, and while it would be stupid to use something like Down-Air to get back on the stage (also for obvious reasons), Ganon can use these attacks for particular situations. If you're standing further back to avoid his aerials, then he can ledge-jump and find a way to get over you and land safely without too much consequence. It's definitely a challenge, but it's not as hopeless as you were making it out to be.

So +4 for Falco/Ganon, laser laser laser pew pew pew why am I fighting this matchup?

 

[swordsaint]

my ganon is amazing

i did a string that was like

side b, dtilt, upsmash, uair, fair for like 80% damage

i was all like

eat my ****.

 

[SN Viper]

my ganon is amazing

i did a string that was like

side b, dtilt, upsmash, uair, fair for like 80% damage

i was all like

eat my ****.

Cool story bro.

 

[MARLX]

my ganon is amazing

i did a string that was like

side b, dtilt, upsmash, uair, fair for like 80% damage

i was all like

eat my ****.

What! Ganon can combo?

 

[TickleOlly]

I think this match isn't as one sided as it seems. Ganon is quicker and more unpredictable than I thought 0.0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juJ7hChUDxw

 

[Deaths Armada]

I think this match isn't as one sided as it seems. Ganon is quicker and more unpredictable than I thought 0.0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juJ7hChUDxw

(Assuming this is you) Falco was not meant to match Ganon on a frontal assault ground based game, although the way you fought him on his turf was pretty impressive.
That first stock was iffy. You were too aggressive on that ledge guard, and it's usually okay to call it quits on the first back air once you run off the stage. If you feel like being agressive, after you do the back air, go to the ledge to get your second jump again. Don't be afraid of his up B. It's Ganon's weakness, and at that percentage, it would have been a decent Spike.
That second stock could have been saved from the timing of your ledge recovery, but don't be afraid to use a get up attack, even if you get hit, it's a free chance to get on the stage via illusion from that height.
The third stock should be a wake up call on closely ledge guarding Ganon on last stocks.
As an overall statement, you seemed to be having trouble with Ganon's Down B. The pattern I sensed is that he would use it every time he thought that you would retreat in some sort of fashion, to close the gap between you two. Usually, he caught you with it while you were in the air. If this happens again, don't be afraid to just side B away from him back onto the stage. Also, quick note, you got in front of him alot. Try to aim for the back of his neck.
I don't mean to be too critical, I am just trying to see what went wrong here with this match, and most of the errors made were on the Falco's end. Either way, great playing.

 

[TickleOlly]

No, that was not me. I wish I could Falco like that. Though, you could see how Ganon juggernauted past those lasers, and it looks like Falco would need to cross his path in order to get to the far end, when Ganon isn't busy trying to keep from falling to his death. Would using the reflector though, be a better idea if he got close? And once Ganon's damage is high enough, what would be the best way to get a k.0 without getting punched in the beak? I can usually get in the chain grabs, but after ganon gets above 90%, it gets harder to get in combos.

 

[-LzR-]

Falco has like no reason to even sideB. When Ganon gets close enough, just jab jab jab jab and if he shields you grab. Either way Ganon can't do **** and that's when you sideB to repeat the whole thing again. Probably the most one sided MU in the game that doesn't include infinites are grab releases.