Falco Matchup #1: Ganondorf

-DR3W-

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#1
MATCHUP 1
GANONDORF



In this thread, post any contribution you have regarding the Ganondorf matchup.

Keep these in mind when posting:
- What do we have against him?
- What to watch out for?
- Certain do's & don'ts
- Any additional information or data necessary.
 

DJ Arcatek

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#3
Ganon is a joke, unfortunately.

What do we have against him?
We have jab, reflector, lasers, Ftilt, side b the whole nine yards. Oh, and most importantly, the Chaingrab. Ganon really doesn't have an answer to ANY of Falco's moves. Just laser and side b all day. As a matter of fact, you don't even need to take it that far. Jab outprioritizes a good amount of Ganon moves (including his Side B) so you can play a CQC game if you'd like. Well... Unless you're bad at playing upclose. Otherwise, a defensive Ganon could possibly KO you, but that shouldn't be the case.

Anywho, if you can get the chaingrab, that's a free 50%-70% right there. After that, it's practically a keep-away game.

What should we watch out for?
Even though Ganon is no match for us, that doesn't mean he doesn't have some tools of his own. Dair and Uair are Ganon's best moves, and they have pretty decent priority (well, his uair does, anyway). His uair outprioritizes your firebird, so if you get caught by the sour spot (the area after he does the initial flip), you'll be sent downwards. His bair can also **** your side B, so that's another thing to look out for. Ontop of that, he can KO you at ridiculously low percents with Fsmash, Dair, etc.. Ganon's Side B will go through your shield too, so as soon as you see that starting animation, just start jabbing. If you ever happen to get caught by his Side B, it's pretty much a not-so-good Snake d-throw. I would suggest to just roll away from him everytime.

Certain Do's and Don'ts
DO camp and Chaingrab when necessary and keep ganon away
DO jab as often as possible since he has no answer to jabs.
DO punish his poor recovery. Always ledgegrab (if possible) then proceed to punish accordingly. (If he lands onstage, Dair him or nair. Even bair would work)
DO watch out for the fsmash/dair.

DON'T get greedy for the kill. Ganon doesn't really have good OoS options, but Dair can always get'cha.
DON'T recover with firebird often. A smart ganon will start reading that and Dair/Bair you to hell.
DON'T get caught by Dair into airdodging into a charged fsmash.
DON'T... I don't know. This matchup is too easy.

All in all, it's a joke of a matchup, but that doesn't mean you should be SANDBAGGING either. Ganons like Vermanubis are highly skilled, and COULD give you a run for your money, so regardless of the matter, just play the matchup properly and don't **** around.

I'd say it's 80:20.
 

Seagull Joe

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#4
+3 or 95-5 Falco's favor. Cg=Death and he can't exactly get through a wall of lasers or iap's reliably at all...
 

Vlade

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#5
This matchup is either unwinnable or close to unwinnable for Ganon. He just doesn't have any approach options and gets shut down hard by lasers with his poor ground and aerial mobility lol. Even if he does get close he still can't do much about Jab or ftilt. Ganon has much greater killpower than Falco though but this is more than evened out with falco's high damage output and keepaway.

As for stages, Final Destination is obvious but I actually think Norfair, if it's legal, is one of the best stages to take Ganon too because it is pretty much impossible for Ganon to catch a Falco that just camps the top platform and then does a long cancelled phantasm to the other side.

Also, if Ganon catches us with his upb if we time it right (which isn't too hard) we can get a dair spike on him straight after and there's nothing he can do about it.
 

A2ZOMG

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#6
Ganondorf can't even do anything to Falco out of Flame Choke, since Falco just falls and rolls too fast.

80/20 or 90/10, it doesn't really make a difference at that point when Ganon really just doesn't have the tools to stop the laser -> Jab tactic. Gimping him is VERY easy for Falco. Just B-air. Or if he miraculously makes it to the edge, proceed to edgetrap.
 

SN Viper

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#7
The only think i can see being a problem in this mu is getting edge guarded by up air nair or bair

I also think falco will have trouble while we are above ganon. His up air can juggle us and put us off stage.

also falco it the 5th lightest char in the game it could lead to some earlier kills.

I cant see how he would reliably or safely be able to put falco in that position.
 

Choice

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#8
this is a silly mu to discuss.

just don't ever spot dodge, roll or air dodge and you win. ganon depends on having something that he can punish and most our moves dont fall under that category.
 

Choice

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#13
if ganon ever up b's to the edge. he has 0 options that get him off it and gets rid of his landing penalty without inflicting about the same lag time. wizards foot is prolly his best option in this situation, lol.
 

swordsaint

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#14
The point was to get the easy matchups out the way, never discuss them again, and move on to the match ups that matter. This way people will want to discuss the ****ty matchups and it won't be left halfway done yet again.

Btw I believe the matchup is 90/10. It's not impossible for Ganon but is near impossible. (btw I play ganon when im not playing falco, as i don't believe he's the 'worst' in the game, i have a lot of good moments with mine like beating some MKs and marths lol)

Ganons only saving grace against Falco is the strength and ability to keep some momentum if he gets it. (yes ganon has momentum when played well)

However lasers, chaingrabs and jabs do it for ganon. I won't say phantasm, cos if you're spamming that Ganon will **** you up. no joke.

but yeah it all pales in comparison to falcos options. so again 90/10

@ choice, not many people really appreciate ganon on the ledge. its funny because uairs > regrabs for ganon for pretty lolsy. And his edge jump goes fairly high, which can be covered by a stomp a fair amount, he can also cancel the ledge jump with a wizards kick for a mix up.

Edit - who's going to be writing out summaries? It's been a while since I've contributed to the Falco boards, but I'd be happy to write them out to get back in to contributing. I'd say Ganon is fairly agreed upon and just like I suggested one matchup, one day, since we started at the bottom.

just a side note since i forgot, don't underestimate ganons range/speed. his dtilt is fairly **** imo.
 

Bloodcross

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#15
Look, this matchup is done. We covered it LOL.

You said it yourself, get these low tier matchups over with.

@Choice, yeah every Ganon will ledge hop to Uair and/or Wiz-kick... in every mu...

oh and i must add this...



PLANKINDORF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

swordsaint

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#16
Look, this matchup is done. We covered it LOL.

You said it yourself, get these low tier matchups over with.

@Choice, yeah every Ganon will ledge hop to Uair and/or Wiz-kick... in every mu...

oh and i must add this...



PLANKINDORF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It's nto my fault I wasn't around earlier to contribute, and wanted to contribute. :(

it is my fault bu i dont care
 

-DR3W-

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#18
Clearly we're done here. Since our ratio contributions ranged from 80:20 to 95:5, can we agree that the consensus be 90:10?

Also, Swordsaint is being awesome and summarizing the matchup as a whole. Props to him for being a helpful fella!

Onto the next one: Zelda! I'll be posting it shortly.
 

DJ Arcatek

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#22
I would suggest a simple Pro's/Con's, CounterPick List(optional), small summary of what to expect/do in the matchup, and a simple ratio. I'm sure there are other things you can add, but I'm too sleepy to remember atm :p
 

-DR3W-

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#24
Basically what Jack said. Just write up a general what to do/expect, stages to choose and avoid, and whatever additional information (or quotes) you deem necessary. Maybe we can even post some good videos.
 

-DR3W-

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#26
It is not a necessity, just an idea. If you do not feel it would be helpful because stage are personal preference, you don't have to include it.
 

Schtizzel

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#27
Stages are really an individuals choice though...
But against High Tiers it would be good to know which stages are best against them. Just note 3 or more stages and then everybody can choose his most prefered stage.
The match-up discussions and summaries should help any of us who hasn't played against the character or who has to little experience. So stage suggestions would benefit a lot of.
Especially I need some suggestions for stages because Brawl is all about counterpicking the right stage.
 

smashkng

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#29
Ganon must make STRONG reads in order to stop Falco, like perfectly timing his moves to hit you through side b. As long as you spam Lasers it's near impossible for him to approach because of his huge hurtbox with no moves that lowers it low enough and he doesn't have a close range game unless you're in his grab range (which is lol). Don'y approach just be patient and camp as much as possible with Lasers, and jab when he gets too close. Ganon having such a slow moveset even on his fastest ground moves moves just make him get destroyed by Laser to jab while his super tiny grab range doesn't help. Jabs may even be completely safe on Ganon's shield. Don't force the kills, just wait until you have the chance, Falco's Usmash isn't a very safe move on shield. Be careful when shielding too much from too close because he may side b through it if you're not careful. Smart Ganons also love to bait spot dodges/rolls for free Dair/wizard kick so don't be predictable with them. Punishing Ganon's get-ups is still done on prediction, but it is still easier to predict it than most because he doesn't have quite as much options than other characters when getting up and he gets the 30 frames landing penalty for using up b, being arguably the worst character at preventing the landing penalty from being punished. Using side b also gives that landing penalty but only 20 frames and can also replace the Up b landing penalty one. Also Ganon can't get-up from a ledge drop to double jump onstage unless he does a Flipman (perfectly timed ledge drop to double jump plus Uair), or a "Flipman" with air dodge instead of Uair which is very hard to do consistently. I think when Falco is at certain percents (around 70-100%), he can Dair Ganon out of his Up b, but Nairing his Up b is generally easier to do.

It's definitely a +4 MU for Falco on most stages mainly because of his lasers, jab and chain grab, but a top Ganon will still beat an average Falco. It's just below the step of an unwinnable matchup for Ganon.
 

Choice

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#30
if you don't use any defensive options past shield, he cant get those strong reads.

honestly ganon's ledge options are so slow you should just react to it all and punish (except for normal get up, but i'll explain after).

if you have forced ganon to use side b, or up b to the ledge just do the following:

first position yourself outside of ganon's get up attack range.
next just watch for what he does:
ledge jump -> use bair to force air dodge then when he lands he will have landing penalty and send him back off stage after that. if he doesn't air dodge he gets hit by bair
ledge roll -> grab or whatever you want that sends him off stage or in a bad position
ledge drop to dj something (i think air dodge might be the only thing he can do) -> punish his landing penalty
normal get up -> ok this one is more complicated. know that ganon cannot jump because he still has landing penalty and if he does jump just shield or walk away then run back in to punish his penalty. since he can't jump, he has to play ground game vs you, and you should just win.
 

BleachigoZX

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#31
Also, if Ganon catches us with his upb if we time it right (which isn't too hard) we can get a dair spike on him straight after and there's nothing he can do about it.
It's slightly more specific than that. You had to be over or less than 80% or something.

But yeah Vlade just gave y'all a pro tip.
 

D Who?

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#32
IMO, this thread isn't needed. Honesty, any Falco player should have no problem with this match. It's Gannon.

But to contribute.. Pew, pew!
CG>****
SH Laser>Phantasm>Buttrape.


All IMO
 

smashkng

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#33
He also has ledge jump to side b at stage height which can surprise you if you hold shield for too long. And Choice this is a decent get-up option of Ganon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnydiAsEjTQ . It's pretty hard to do consistently, but I see Verm doing it a lot, especially with side b or Wizard Kick as a follow-up.
 

Niala

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#34
This match-up is really obvious. You just have to do the things that make Falco good, use your lasers and camp appropriately, your chain grab is awesome in this MU, jab is great because it's faster than anything he can do, also your Nair is great because, I find, it comes out before his Uair can. A couple of things you need to watch for, though: be careful not to get too greedy for the kill, Ganon has lots of early kills with his Dair spike and strong Fsmash. Also, NEVER firebird. While this goes for almost every MU, it's particular here because you can get punished for it really easily. This is a very "just play your game" MU, 95/5 Falco's favor.
 

Gamegenie222

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#35
Since no one has talked about Ganon's stages and what not, I'm going to post the pro's and con's along with the main basis of this MU .

Ganon's Pro's in this MU.
-Killing Power that makes us cry.:(
-Weight makes him a little difficult to kill outside of CG to spike and to play patient.
-Gerudo is useful against grounded side-b as well as retreating bair's and pivot grabs.
-Good moves to gimp us offstage and clip our wings.
-Punish us badly when they can get a read.

Ganon's Cons
-Has a difficult time approaching us cause of lasers.
-Jab stops him cold.
-CG to spike off stage makes it difficult to recover for him.
-We can outmaneuver him.
-Landing penalty on all his moves.
-Slow moves that we can punish if he is in our range for attack mainly jab.
-Shieldgrabbing craps on him.

Ganon's stages that they will ban.(Borrowed from the Ganon boards.)
-Final Destination
-Jungle Japes if it's legal
-Smashville
-Halberd
-Castle Siege

Ganon's CP stages we should pay attention to.(Borrowed from the Ganon boards of course.)
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi Island
-Brinstar
-Pokémon Stadium 1 (I don't think this is that much of a problem except the ledge but that's just me.)

Ganon's priorities in this MU. (Borrowed from the Ganon boards again.)
-Be patient
-Don't get camped by a large % margin
-Get Falco offstage
-Get at high, un-chain grab-able %s.
-Force close approaches

Moves to watch out for from the King of Evil.
-Dair
-Reverse uair
-bair
-F-smash for prediction on rolls
-D-smash (same as f-smash)

This MU is basically a cat and mouse game but instead we are birds with a gun against a character who we have a big advantage on but should not take the MU lightly or we will feel Ganon's wrath upon on if we are careless. That is my info on this MU.
 

Choice

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#36
He also has ledge jump to side b at stage height which can surprise you if you hold shield for too long. And Choice this is a decent get-up option of Ganon http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnydiAsEjTQ . It's pretty hard to do consistently, but I see Verm doing it a lot, especially with side b or Wizard Kick as a follow-up.
That's definitely a very interesting get-up option, and honestly i had no idea ganon could do so. I noticed though that this video has the ganon doing so without having landing penalty from his up b or side b and am wondering if he'd be able to do anything so quickly afterwards when he does have it. also if you stand further back, it shouldn't be an issue though it would probably be one of his safest ledge options if he does not get much lag from landing penalty.

i'm not really trying to put ganon down as a character or nothing, i'm just being realistic. i honestly would be content if ganon much better than i think he is or if something changes for him and he benefits greatly, but i feel like i understand his limitations decently well.
 

D Who?

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#37
Since no one has talked about Ganon's stages and what not, I'm going to post my pro's and con's along with the main basis of this MU .

Ganon's Pro's in this MU.
-Killing Power that makes us cry.:(
-Weight makes him a little difficult to kill outside of CG to spike and to play patient.
-Gerudo is useful against grounded side-b as well as retreating bair's and pivot grabs.
-Good moves to gimp us offstage and clip our wings.
-Punish us badly when they can get a read.

Ganon's Cons
-Has a difficult time approaching us cause of lasers.
-Jab stops him cold.
-CG to spike off stage makes it difficult to recover.
-We can outmaneuver him.
-Landing penalty on all his moves.
-Slow moves that we can punish if he is in our range for attack mainly jab.
-Shieldgrabbing craps on him.

Ganon's stages that they will ban.(Borrowed from the Ganon boards.)
-Final Destination
-Jungle Japes if it's legal
-Smashville
-Halberd
-Castle Siege

Ganon's CP stages we should pay attention to.(Borrowed from the Ganon boards of course.)
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi Island
-Brinstar
-Pokémon Stadium 1 (I don't think this is that much of a problem except the ledge but that's just me.)

Ganon's priorities in this MU. (Borrowed from the Ganon boards again.)
-Be patient
-Don't get camped by a large % margin
-Get Falco offstage
-Get at high, un-chain grab-able %s.
-Force close approaches

Moves to watch out for from the King of Evil.
-Dair
-Reverse uair
-bair
-F-smash for prediction on rolls
-D-smash (same as f-smash)

This MU is basically a cat and mouse game but instead we are birds with a gun against a character who we have a big advantage on but should not take the MU lightly or we will feel Ganon's wrath upon on if we are careless. That is my info on this MU.

Lmfao, this man is like a scientist for how to beat the worst character in the game.

..Lol how long did it take you to figure all of this out?
 

Gamegenie222

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#38
I figured this out within a minute or two but it took me a few minutes typing all of this up plus I wanted to make all the info I posted regarding the pro's and con's of the MU in one big post to get it out of the way plus no one talked about the stages in this MU so that was another reason.
 

smashkng

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#39
I never said this matchup was good for Ganon. This is actually one of his absolute worst matchups out of all of his insanely hard MUs. And no Choice Flipman doesn't save Ganon from landing punishment though it's only 15 frames punishments because the landing is soft. Best option to punish Flipman is probably to hold shield. Ganons tend to do it as soon as he is able to ledge drop as possible leading to an invincible Uair Ganon's worst weaknesses IMO are his grab range, his CQC, his recovery and his mobility. In this matchup his large model size also is a big matter. What Falco can really abuse is Ganon's size combined with Ganon's poor close quarters combat and mobility with Falco's Lasers and jab. Ganon can't really punish lasers even if he Powershields them. That's what really destroys Ganon in this matchup. Then chain grab and gimps/edgeguarding are little bonuses for Falco to make it even better for him.
 
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