The new shine should come back... I responded to many of you...
Any particular reason why? I know alot more than just Falco's changes got removed, but I was in love with the new (working) shine and fair. Made me get alot more creative with my combos rather than just dair -> utilt -> dair -> utilt -> dair -> dair -> dsmash/fsmash/bair/some other way to finish it. Shine especially was very nice to throw in at random intervals.
Though the fair could've lived with a toning down, maybe to like 80/90 KBG.
I agree, it made playing Falco far more diverse. Making the shine actually useful. I didn't find it to be overpowered, as my opponent was able to DI to avoid being hit. In general, I feel this buff was great because Falco isn't exactly the most combo friendly character in the game. There's no denying that many characters have climbed immensely high on the tiers, gotten far better, where as Falco has fallen behind said characters. Fox, Captain Falcon, Marth, etc, all of these characters have amazing combos.
i thought spacies' shines were meant to be a main weapon?
don't give me that 'but it can reflect stuff' **** too. you and i both know that's not the truest purpose of that move on a spacy.
wolf's is a true spacie shine. fox's is a shadow of itself, but still pretty cool. falco's sucks.
guys. it sucks. i'd rather see falco have an interesting, useful shine than some other buff.
however, i'm not a falco main. just a smasher that thought he had an idea of what made a spacie...a spacie.
I agree.
Falco's shine, though having its purposes, does suck. It's incredibly easy to punish this attack, and it doesn't really benefit Falco much even when it does connect. He generally can't get another attack in, as it just pushes the enemy back. In addition, it's not even the best spacing tool. It also doesn't appear to be too affective at edge guarding-- where as the new shine made it exciting.
Fair he could probably live without, no matter how grateful I am to finally have it serve a decent purpose.
While I do agree that he was good without the Shine change, I felt it really brought an original touch to Falco's shine rather than just being a crappier, longer ranged version of Fox's, and it brought new (and perhaps needed?) depth to Falco's game, somewhat akin to Lucario and his Extremespeed buff. All the old shine served as was a very poor spacing tool, even being punishable on connecting successfully if you didn't land the tip. I know we're not trying to homogenize the cast and make them without weaknesses, but as I mentioned before, it really opened up tons of new possibilities for Falco's combo game that puts him on somewhat equal footing with the top echelon like Fox, Marth, Sheik ect, while actually serving to promote a more balanced playstyle rather than simply camp camp camp (yes, I know Kais mentioned that it made camping easier, but in my experience, landing the shine naked in such a manner was near impossible unless your opponent messes up bad). Not to mention I still find it less overpowering than Wolf's shine is OPness was a problem (and I support the Wolf shine change as well).
I agree, the shine change really made Falco feel unique, it was very refreshing. The buff, as you said, would if anything give him the chance to combo at the level that other characters can, which is far higher than him. I don't see how this is so unreasonable. Also, arguments stating "that's not how the move was supposed to be used" are arbitrary as we're not playing Brawl the way it's supposed to be played anyway... We've hacked Brawl up the butt. Falco's shine felt far more natural with the change, it made comboing a ton more interesting, and gave Falco more comboing options, and he is REALLY lacking there.
Most of people Agree,his Shine change is a bit OP,hes very good,why make him more good?
So,he dont need his shine to be a set-up.
Fox Shine=Better for Gimp
Wolf Shine=Better for Combo Breaker
Falco Shine=Better for Reflecting Projects
Dont try to make his shine to be another thing,his shine is for reflect project,not combo.
I don't agree... I didn't find it to be OP. No more so than Fox's down air, to utilt or down smash combos. Nor did I find it to be far above the other combo heavy characters of the game. In addition, saying Falco's shine is used for reflecting projectiles is weak, as they are all ideal for that. Basically, you're saying that Fox's shine is great for reflecting projectiles and gimping characters, it also stalls his aerial movement, giving him aerial options for mindgames / avoiding attacks by stopping short. Wolf can also reflect things, and in addition his shine makes for a great combo breaker, while at the same time giving him an opportunity to chase them with an aerial. Finally, Falco's shine can reflect, and has no purpose beyond that. It's epic fail if spammed, and is a relatively poor spacing tool. You're better off spamming lasers for spacing.
"Dont try to make his shine to be another thing,his shine is for reflect project,not combo."
Why not? We're tweaking many characters, and sometimes, we're outright changing how some of their moves function, why is this any different? Honestly, it's sad. I agree that Falco can hold his own in Brawl+, but I can also agree that he hasn't gained half as much as the rest of the cast, he's not very popular because of that. The reason people aren't willing to give his shine a buff is because they forget what game they're playing. Perhaps they think this is vBrawl Falco, where he stood out from the rest of the cast and was what, 3rd best? He was great in vBrawl because he could chaingrab most of the cast (which in vBrawl was considered comboing) his lasers were great, as they offered him stun time to get an attack in-- and for a game with no hitstun this made him stand out. In addition, his chaingrab "combo" could lead into his spike (let's not forget that Falco lost much going into Brawl+ his chaingrab for one-- which isn't a bad thing, but I'm just saying... he hasn't gained much if anything in return) Because of his stature in vBrawl, and other people hating him because of his spammy ways some still think of him with hatred, as they did in vBrawl. They must be ill informed, or blind, because Falco+ has to work real hard for his combos. At top notch play, he can hold his own, but he undoubtedly falls behind even Fox now-- and Fox was nothing in vBrawl in comparison. In addition think of the ICs for a moment, their dowb+B (blizzard) pulls the enemy into them now, much like Falco's shine change. I think this is perfectly acceptable for the ICs, I think this change is really creative, and makes the character far more interesting to play. Why is this change okay for the ICs and not Falco?
Again, if they think that the shine change is overpowered, why haven't they done anything to Wolf's shine? In my view, that's still more overpowered than Falco's new shine. If they're going out of their way to nerf Wolf's shine instead of taking it out, why not do the same to Falco's? The Plussery discussion mentioned tweaking Wolf's shine to do less damage as a temporary fix until they can figure out something better? Why not do the same to Falco's?
And this notion of "what a move should do/is designed to do" is a completely arbitrary argument. This is the exact same problem the Sonic mains are having with their usmash discussion. leafgreen's post on the subject matter
here is similar to my views on this matter. You're given a new tool to use that is original and deepens the metagame of the character, and people are worried about "how it was originally intended to be used"?
I can buy that alot of people think the move is OPed, and that's fine. Falco is still a viable character even without the shine changes. I don't have a qualm with that part of your argument other than why this and not Wolf's shine as well, and if it is truly overpowered (which I don't think it is, but that is subjective) then why not attempt to fix it to make it balanced instead of removing it entirely. The 2nd half of your argument, listing what Falco's/Fox's/Wolf's shine
should be used for however is a different story.
I agree, I think that Wolfs shine is more useful than Falco's, in addition, Fox's shine is more useful too. I really don't think it was too strong before. I'm willing to take a laser nerf it if means more comboing options for Falco. Seriously guys, all I do is play Falco, as soon as I get my capture card I'll be showing off my Falco combos... they are almost always the same... they really don't get to creative, because Falco is so limited in comboing. There aren't many options, and many of his combos rely on the enemy to fail to tech-- which means they aren't true combos in the first place... Falco is fun as hell to play, and is likely one of the most technical characters in the game to play, with his shdl and b-reversed shdls.. and DACUS, etc, however, I think a shine change would complement him well. It would absolutely add to the metagame, and it'd be really exciting to see it in the final Brawl+, or rather, I'd like for it to come back in the next nightly build.
I think the Falco shine should've stayed in personally.
It simply adds more options for Falco, and I've said this many times before, but as long as these options aren't OP, more options only means more depth.
I agree entirely. I don't see the shine as overpowered because like anything, it could be DIed away from. Many times if my friend DIed properly I wasn't able to fallow up quickly enough because he was out of my range, or somewhere I didn't expect him. It's not like it's always a sure fire set up, but it definately helps Falco to get some combo going, in addition, it gives his combo game far more depth.
Yeah,his shine add more option for him,but he dont need more options,he has a good number of set-ups for combos(Like his Utilt Buff).Why buff more who is a ''Top Tier'' Material?
Kuga, you're still thinking of him from a vBrawl perspective, not a Brawl+ one. He's top tier if you play the crap out of him, if you're enemy fails to tech his combos, and so on, but he's lacking quite a bit in the combo department in comparison to a large number of the cast. It's not nearly as exciting playing Falco, from a comboing perspective, as it is to play the other combo heavy characters. Playing Fox is so fun / rewarding, same with Captain Falcon. I don't get that feeling with Falco, I just have fun walling my opponent with lasers, which quite frankly was exactly how he played in vBrawl. No change there. The only move that really consistently leads into a combo is... his utilt. It's his safest / most effective combo starter. That's one set up, which is especially good if the enemy is in your face. However, in that scenario there's no better option for comboing. Lasers are great because they oftentimes lead into a utilt, if you land the 2nd laser just as you touch down next to the enemy. His dacus is also a combo starter, if he hits the enemy with his dash attack, cancels it into a usmash, then utilts once, twice, then continues with shorthopped FF Bairs. That's the extent of his combo ability. Many of the cast can combo into far more devastating moves than Falco can, like sweetspotted attacks. Sure Falco can combo into his spike, that's always awesome, however, the enemy can often just up+b right away and survive.
My point is, let's no joke for a moment. Falco has not gained nearly as much in Brawl+ as other characters have. There's no denying it. He relies on a very campy style of play, which isn't a bad thing, but he should have some more offensive options. I'd live to see his metagame grow far more diverse with his new shine. As I've said, it makes Falco a TON more interesting, and fun to play. I almost NEVER use his regular shine, because it's so bad. I ONLY use it for reflecting, however, all of the spacies are great for this purpose too. It's not unjust for Falco to receive a much needed buff to facilitate his weak combo game-- it really isn't.
this. Completely and utterly this. More originality and depth to a formerly 'boring' character in vBrawl = a good thing as long as it does not break the game, which you know my opinion of already.
Quite simply put: he's not?
Last I've heard, he is unanimously considered to be worse than his spacie counterpart Fox: he is less mobile, slower in attack speed, has less combo options and damage output on his combos, has less powerful kill moves with less ways to set up for them, and has a worse recovery. That's not to say I think Falco is not a good character without the shine or does not have any redeeming features over Fox, but it is the general consensus that Fox is superior. Which would lend itself to saying that characters who are on Fox's general level such as Marth and Sheik are also better than Falco. During the character discussion episode of the Brawl+ podcast, one of the commentators (I forgot who it was, and I apologize) mentioned that Falco was merely projected to be in High Tier by a player who was not only very well-integrated in the Brawl+ community, but also had Falco experience behind his judgement. And from the Falco experience I have had since starting to play Brawl+ at Chu Dat's bi-weeklies and soon to be Apex and GMIR's tournament, I would say he was on the money.
Simply put, I think the new shine would push him to actual Top Tier status with Marth and co., which is ideally where we want all characters to be at while retaining diversity (as unlikely at the goal may be, which is why we aim for simply tournament viable. Doesn't mean we should allow as many characters as possible to be Top Tier so long as they don't break or homogenize the game). If it doesn't break the game and it adds more depth to a character's game, I see no reason why not to add it in, even if we're making a character go from High Tier to Top Tier.
I suppose it's fitting seeing as how I'm a Falco main and a Sonic secondary
. I guess I'm just gravitated to characters with lots of potential drama to them.
QFT. I'm not even going to bother adding more than this, it's obvious what I think by my other responses above.
Thunderhorse+, I really enjoy the falco change and wish some of our creative freedom would be better receieved. However, it seems our changes to the gameplay are widely disliked (by both pros and casuals alike) with the once in a while person who loves it. In fact, some think these bold changes even damage our credibility, so it can be fairly damaging to B+ in general. As much as I want to keep both shine changes in, they will prolly both have to go :-\
Shanus, I too like the change, I thought it was amazing. It added depth and a creative edge to a character who is lacking in Brawl+, in comparison to others. I don't see how these changes damage our credibility, if they did, I'd have to say that the people are still thinking of Falco as his vBrawl counterpart. Falco no longer holds the dominant position for one of the best characters in the game, he lacks comboing depth, and the shine answered that. I enjoyed the Fair buff, as that move is almost useless, however I think it could have gone with a slight bit less knockback (it was a tad too much as is). I think we should implement the change, and keep it that way, and change it or tweak it as we get tournament results. It's certainly not broken. His shine as it is lacking so much, it sucks. It's not as useful as Fox's and Wolf's, in addition, Falco could use some depth to his comboing game.
What are the chances we'll see this buff make a return?
