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Meta Falco: Approaches and Combos/Strings

DungeonMaster

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Fought a falco yesterday on glory who actually KNEW the new falco combo tree and could apply it. He tried for almost everything you guys have on display here in training mode. I should have recorded matches... I didn't want to insult the guy by pausing between sets.
Damn, some amazing fun and tight gameplay. My opinion is now that once you learn the Falco combo tree this character is better than Fox. And it showed in our sets too. If the reads on both sides are about equal, the raw damage difference is very significant. The jab cancel into d-tilt -> nair + follow-ups v. nice. I didn't even know falco could jab cancel. (First hit of a FF nair? I swear it was a jab cancel)
 
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Superbat

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His mobility hinders him from going above mid tier in my opinion. When people realize how easy it is to lame him out, (lack luster approach options) the Falco hype will die pretty quickly. The buffs to him from the last patch were definitely awesome though.
 
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Ffamran

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Fought a falco yesterday on glory who actually KNEW the new falco combo tree and could apply it. He tried for almost everything you guys have on display here in training mode. I should have recorded matches... I didn't want to insult the guy by pausing between sets.
Damn, some amazing fun and tight gameplay. My opinion is now that once you learn the Falco combo tree this character is better than Fox. And it showed in our sets too. If the reads on both sides are about equal, the raw damage difference is very significant. The jab cancel into d-tilt -> nair + follow-ups v. nice. I didn't even know falco could jab cancel. (First hit of a FF nair? I swear it was a jab cancel)
Was his tag Cyro? :p

Pre-patch, he blew back shofu's For Glory adventure's Peach and Fox. This is the vs. Fox video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL14k4Jq6M8.

The issue with Falco and most characters honestly, is that he doesn't really have true combos past low percents. After that, it's dependent on DI, reading your opponent, and knowing what your moves do. So, at 70%, if Falco sweet-spots his Dtilt, they're going really high up and Falco needs to react to and understand that. At the same time, kill moves combo at low percents. It's not uncommon for Falco to string Bair, Up Smash, Dtilt, Utilt, and Uair at low to mid percents. In a perfect situation where Falco has complete control, his damage output is insane considering he pretty much hits like a heavy. Unfortunately, as Superbat said, he's not fast horizontally, but only vertically which would be great for Super Mario 3D World and an Ice Climbers game where Falco is an unlockable player, but not really in Smash. Having both ground and air mobility in the lower end of the spectrum hurts, especially as a fast faller who can drift high up and avoid things like Rosalina, Jigglypuff, and Luigi. Hurts even more when Ike's run speed is now above Falco's and Ike's air speed is above average compared to Brawl. Then you have Roy who became an Olympian sprinter and long jumper.
 

DungeonMaster

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Tag was FishFries. Yeah, I don't claim to understand the Falco combo tree in any detail (at all...) but I can maybe offer some advice given your description from my writing the Samus tree. If you find a true combo that works in training mode, and you know its range well, you can get it to work just beyond its range by modifying your timing just a slight amount.
Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes#t=175
and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes#t=165
In both cases the "true combo" up-tilt -> double-jump -> CS and up-tilt -> up-air -> up-B are actually below that range of percent, but just barely. So I execute the combo, delay ever so slightly hoping for an airdodge and bam, you get your kill combo. You don't need to be zerO or have some crazy air-dodge read ability, it's just slightly modified timing. Falco may benefit from this, knowing the % accurately.
I feel this will eventually become very important to the metagame, and more importantly, it looks amazing... :p
 
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B.A.M.

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Hey fellas 4GG | BAM here and I wanted to briefly showcase part of video I made showcasing some of options Falco has with his new tools. All these things are done against a comp in the video, however I have also tested things with human opponents as well as my training partner Larry Lurr who currently has the best Falco in the US ( probably world lool).


Anyways for those who are having trouble visualizing why these buffs are so good please give the vid a run through!


 

Ffamran

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Hey fellas 4GG | BAM here and I wanted to briefly showcase part of video I made showcasing some of options Falco has with his new tools. All these things are done against a comp in the video, however I have also tested things with human opponents as well as my training partner Larry Lurr who currently has the best Falco in the US ( probably world lool).


Anyways for those who are having trouble visualizing why these buffs are so good please give the vid a run through!


This should go to the Falco combo and approach thread if you don't mind me merging this thread with it. Also, Falco's Nair doesn't have a windbox. The weird interaction is probably because of Falco's high jump, how his Nair's hitboxes are, and the new autolink angles being added in patch 1.0.8. Fox's Fair, for example has autolink angle hits which pretty much drag and lock opponents to where Fox is going and explains why multi-hit moves are much better in Smash 4 as more moves have them compared to Brawl. When Fox rises with Fair, he doesn't jump as high as Falco and Fox's Fair hits mostly in front of him with pretty large hitboxes compared to Falco's Nair. So, rising Fairs with Fox looks normal, but Falco's rising Nair is kind of weird if spaced since there's a smallish hitbox being thrown out and Falco's jumping really high. Zelda's Nair is the closest thing to Falco's, but hers is slower in startup and she doesn't jump as high. I bet, if Zelda jumped as high, it would cause the same weird suction effect IAN found in the combo video a couple weeks back.

Also, unrelated to Falco, but Ike should have had a note on his jab change. He can't do his jab repeat like in Brawl, but it's much faster than launch Ike in Smash 4. Meta Knight also got some nifty buffs on jab and Ftilt, but he was already a strong character who people, well, Ito, didn't figure out until he learned about Meta Knight as much as he can.

Any videos of Larry Lurr's falco?
He only pulls it out for the last round against Adajar's Sheik: https://youtu.be/mxFCb_7Ru24.
 

Taureactor

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Hey fellas 4GG | BAM here and I wanted to briefly showcase part of video I made showcasing some of options Falco has with his new tools. All these things are done against a comp in the video, however I have also tested things with human opponents as well as my training partner Larry Lurr who currently has the best Falco in the US ( probably world lool).


Anyways for those who are having trouble visualizing why these buffs are so good please give the vid a run through!


Awesome video, I didn't knew that dair was untechable, also you guys probably know this, but maybe these 2 things I discovered will help some, I recently played with my friend with falco and this is what I discovered:

-First, whenever you fthrow or nair and the opponent goes in front of you, most of the time (this probably only works on beginner to intermediate players though) the opponent would jump back just before hitting the ground, when this happens just jump towards them and fair, it's an incredible attack if they jump and if they tech and roll towards you simply FF the fair and the last should get them.

-Second, it happened often that when I would jump and nair an opponent offstage I could easily double jump and fair and surprisingly it could kill REALLY early! I remember kill my friend at about 40-60 % with me having almost no rage, and killing him with fair offstage!

Now for my question: Is there a setup or a way to follow up with side-b so it spikes the opponent? Is it possible? Because if yes, it could be a good tool to kill early % on characters with bad recovery like dr.mario or little mac.
 

M23-X0

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Hi guys, I did a Falco String/Combo montage :


The majority of Falco's combos begin with down throw, and uses a lot of the Forward Air. The only other way I know to start a combo, is by using F-Tilt. What are the other possibilities ?

Since the last update, I started to rely more and more on NAir, bur didn't find any combo or setups. What are your opinions on this move ?

And last, does Falco have a combo with Dair and Footstool ?
 

BlueBirdE

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was messing with some edgeguard options on fox and found out a sourspot dair offstage combos into nair in low percents (30ish havent tested any further). this became a kamikaze set up where i would sourspot dair and go straight into nair amd drag fox to the bottom corner of the stage after the last hit of nair hit. i can see this being useful on certain recoveries like falcons and may be stages where falco doesnt die at the bottom.
 

Ffamran

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Nair to Dair? Nair to everything basically... There was a Reflector to Dair. Eh, all DI dependent, I guess. Also, really nice song that reminds me of Yu Yu Hakusho's Smile Bomb.
 

BlueBirdE

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If you were talking to me its the other way around :p. yee i tested it by doing a dthrow on fox around 25 near the ledge and went into a sh dair to nair. On suzaku i always ended up dying at the bottom but i imagine bigger stages you may be able to survive. Either way it could be useful especially if youre a stock ahead at high percent. Could turn it into a 2 stock lead or game if the oppurtunity presented itself. Havent had time to mess with it more
 

Taureactor

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Hi guys, I did a Falco String/Combo montage :


The majority of Falco's combos begin with down throw, and uses a lot of the Forward Air. The only other way I know to start a combo, is by using F-Tilt. What are the other possibilities ?

Since the last update, I started to rely more and more on NAir, bur didn't find any combo or setups. What are your opinions on this move ?

And last, does Falco have a combo with Dair and Footstool ?
The other combo "starters" I know are:

-(Like ffamran said) nair can be a combo starter and an extender, I don't know at which percentages, but you can often do nair then double jump and follow up with fair.

-A good combo starter is up throw! Depending on the percentage of your opponent, you can follow up with a nair (at low %), a uair (at mid%) or a double jump uair. After this if you still have your double jump you can almost follow up with any aerials attacks!
 

Ffamran

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Random combo that reminds me of stuff from RED's channel. I bet it's totally DI and character dependent, but a sick combo. I wonder why DK's always the dummy for Falco combos like this?
 

knu_OOKA

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Hello, all. I'm not sure if anyone's noticed this already, but Falco's new nair is really weird, but also really cool. I've been having a hard time getting those new SHFF nair true combos I've seen on this thread, but as a result, I've noticed something interesting during my many failed trials. Fast falling Falco's SH nair directly on the THIRD hit will cause him to fall much earlier than directly after the FOURTH hit, like in the combo videos. I don't know why this is exactly, but I do know that it becomes easier to chain the nairs together this way, or even chain the nairs to other attacks.
Here's the catch, though, a number of characters just fall through the nair when done this way, most likely because Falco lands before the fourth hit. Floaties or light to mid weight character usually fall out, but not always. Large characters and fast fallers almost always get trapped. The following video shows what I've been talking about. I may be completely wrong on all of this, but I just want to hear what you guys think about this. I apologize for the lack of quality in advance (I'm not Youtube savy), but I wanted to show you guys this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8b8ZYULtDc


There's a lot more that I've pulled off than in this video, but once again: not Youtube savy. Just wanted to make others aware of this. Thanks for reading.
 

PaperMic

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Hello, all. I'm not sure if anyone's noticed this already, but Falco's new nair is really weird, but also really cool. I've been having a hard time getting those new SHFF nair true combos I've seen on this thread, but as a result, I've noticed something interesting during my many failed trials. Fast falling Falco's SH nair directly on the THIRD hit will cause him to fall much earlier than directly after the FOURTH hit, like in the combo videos. I don't know why this is exactly, but I do know that it becomes easier to chain the nairs together this way, or even chain the nairs to other attacks.
Here's the catch, though, a number of characters just fall through the nair when done this way, most likely because Falco lands before the fourth hit. Floaties or light to mid weight character usually fall out, but not always. Large characters and fast fallers almost always get trapped. The following video shows what I've been talking about. I may be completely wrong on all of this, but I just want to hear what you guys think about this. I apologize for the lack of quality in advance (I'm not Youtube savy), but I wanted to show you guys this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8b8ZYULtDc


There's a lot more that I've pulled off than in this video, but once again: not Youtube savy. Just wanted to make others aware of this. Thanks for reading.
Yeah, it's really good out of shield. You can even follow with a DAIR at mid percent on certain characters (Ganondorf, falcon, Luigi).
Easy setup for a edguard. I made two posts about in this thread a couple a weeks ago, it's really good!
 

knu_OOKA

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Yeah, it's really good out of shield. You can even follow with a DAIR at mid percent on certain characters (Ganondorf, falcon, Luigi).
Easy setup for a edguard. I made two posts about in this thread a couple a weeks ago, it's really good!
Just saw your last post. Thanks for the combos! Shame it only works on a select amount of characters.
 

BlueBirdE

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Not anything true combo wise but does anyone have a set up to land the firebird? Full hits does roughly 25% hard to ignore that amount of damage
 

EndlessRain

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Hard-ass airdodge read? Oh, and if you go horizontally along the ground it autocancels and you can laserlock, if they miss their tech.
(It's a bad move don't use it)
 

MadCanard

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Fast fall UAir -> Jab is a true combo on a low percentage opponent.

Combine this with some jab cancel strings for fun results.
 

M23-X0

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The other combo "starters" I know are:

-(Like ffamran said) nair can be a combo starter and an extender, I don't know at which percentages, but you can often do nair then double jump and follow up with fair.

-A good combo starter is up throw! Depending on the percentage of your opponent, you can follow up with a nair (at low %), a uair (at mid%) or a double jump uair. After this if you still have your double jump you can almost follow up with any aerials attacks!
I didn't knew of up throw. I will try it!
 

BlueBirdE

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I know firebird is bad just itd be sweet if we can set it up somehow. Maybe a jab lock or a regular get up read.As for more combos depending on character and % you can do a fh uair into nair land and finish with fh fair or reflector depending the di.

This was on sheik:
Sh ff fair to dash attack or grab (dash attack worked for me till about 30%, afterwards had to set up a followup depending how they di/react.)
around 60% onwards, shff fair would combo into a full hop laser. May be minor damage but any damage helps and adds up.
 
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BasedGamerAce

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Someone made a basic combos video. He could have gone much further with most of the combos, but they're like starter combos.
Hey, that's my video! Thaks for posting it! Also, it was made to just go over some of the basic combos. I mainly made it so new Falco mains could just see some basic combo's. I was planing on making a video going more in-depth on Falco's combos (using perfect pivots, jab locks, more falling Uair and Nair, ect.),but I never got to it.
 

SuperScope

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Fast fall UAir -> Jab is a true combo on a low percentage opponent.

Combine this with some jab cancel strings for fun results.
I want to elaborate on this a little bit more. At 0 to 30 or so percent, depending on their fall speed, falling up air can be followed up by anything really. You can up air > jab/tilts/grab > whatever. Basically falling up air can be a combo confirm. For example, up air > dtilt > up throw > up air, or up air > up tilt > up smash. The best part is up air does like 10 percent damage.
 
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Superbat

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Are these true combos? I have no way to test them because I don't have anyone to practice with offline.
 

SuperScope

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The initial up air > whatever should be true if the up air can lift them off the ground, I believe.

Some quick testing against Luigi nair:
Upair>ftilt is true but other combos may be broken if Luigi is frame perfect. Although in a match setting and against most characters, these up air combos will land more in our favor.

What's good about ftilt though is that it spaces you perfectly for a dtilt followup. Upair>ftilt>dtilt.
 
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BasedGamerAce

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Random question, does Falco have any footstool combos? I feel that Falco can do footstool to late dair (AKA the weaker hit of dair that jab locks), but in testing I haven't gotten it yet. Maybe one of you Falco mains can test it as well (if it wasn't already tested).

In doubles though, footstools should allow for laser locks (as well as ftilt, and weak dair, but lasers are basically guaranteed). Falco's teammate could footstool the opponent, then the Falco shoots lasers to lock the opponent, and the Falco player or his/her teammate punish (preferably the teammate because lasers have a lot of lag).

These are just possibilities I thought of, and I'll do some more testing on footstools with Falco.
 

TheReflexWonder

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Just wanted to bring attention to this weird phenomenon found recently:


Falco D-Air has two sweetspot hitboxes that deal 13% (one that meteors and is air-only, and one that hits people upward and is ground-only), and then a sourspot that deals 8% after three (?) frames that hits both air and ground opponents.

The ground-only sweetspot hitbox actually lingers as long as the sourspot hitbox does (the sourspot just replaces the air-only hitbox), but the data dump says that it's located in the exact same place, on the same bone with the same x/y/z coordinates, and the sourspot is a larger size. The sourspot hitbox has an ID of 0 and the linger sweetspot has an ID of 1, meaning if both hitboxes overlap an opponent at the same time, the sourspot will have priority.

After talking to Dantarion (the guy who put out the data dump), we can't figure out how the 13% hitbox landed in that video based on reading the data, and I don't have access to my Wii U right now. My guess is that the game is ignoring the ID priority, and that the victim in the video (Falco) actually moved up into both hitboxes because of his bobbing Wait animation.

I would test this by having an opponent spotdodge so that when the invincibility wears off, Falco is pretty deep into the opponent with his late D-Air. If the theory is correct, it would still cause the sweetspot to land. Someone do this for me.
 
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Nessimator

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If there's one thing I love as much as Falco's B-air it's his N-air. It does good damage, it's a multi-hit move that was fixed in 1.0.8, and it only has 15 frames of landing lag! This is an amazing aerial for combos, frame-traps, and gimps as many of you may know, but has anyone ever noticed just how well it can carry said combos?

Here is a video showing some things I've found with it recently. (Combos may be shorter in actual matches with proper DI and depending on the character if you want this all to true combo, and I don't think training mode registers an attack to a grab as a true combo, or maybe it does, not sure.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hje5obVFDXc

Feel free to share any other info, thoughts, uses, anything you have related to this move.
 
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Thirtyfour

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Is there a full list of Falco combos? I've compiled a bunch of Falco combos since I started playing. I've only read page 1, 3, and 9 and didn't see any true combos reflector or laser. I'll post it if there's not already an archived combo list. I have DI and airdodge traps too that I could post.
 

Mr Melo Yellow

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Good stuff. I've seen a few Japanese falco vines and there was one where falco truecombo'd a Robin with d-throw-nair-nair-fair-fair which killed at 0. The two fairs had to be done offstage but the timign is crazy strict.

Also, have you tried incorporating upsmash into that? D-throw to nair to jump cancelled u-smash and d-throw to nair to nair to jump cancelled u-smash are true combos. I've tried it out on both Falcon and Sheik and it works for both. And as we all know, u-smash at early percents puts you in a great position to to start aerial combos if you read the jump or get u-tilt strings if they airdodge
 
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Ffamran

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If there's one thing I love as much as Falco's B-air it's his N-air. It does good damage, it's a multi-hit move that was fixed in 1.0.8, and it only has 15 frames of landing lag! This is an amazing aerial for combos, frame-traps, and gimps as many of you may know, but has anyone ever noticed just how well it can carry said combos?

Here is a video showing some things I've found with it recently. (Combos may be shorter in actual matches with proper DI and depending on the character if you want this all to true combo, and I don't think training mode registers an attack to a grab as a true combo, or maybe it does, not sure.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hje5obVFDXc

Feel free to share any other info, thoughts, uses, anything you have related to this move.
Moved to here since Nair combos, setups, and the like are more appropriate.

Kind of common knowledge when patch 1.0.8 came... Well, we knew how Nair changed while what you could do after that was being figured out. I remember someone asking about how and when to fast fall Nair, but I don't remember in what thread or who. Hopefully, they see your post and video. Also this person's post too: http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-approaches-and-combos-strings.372417/page-9#post-19626909.

How do you head into battle? Dash attacking isn't the best idea I do SHFL U-airs.
Moved your thread to here since this is the dedicated approach and combo thread.

Yeah, dash attacking's not a good idea since you commit to 39 frames and Falco's not exactly a speedster on the ground. Dash attack is more for punishment and combo setups. What I can say is fight like a boxer. No, not like Little Mac, but in a way like him, Marth, Link, Mario, Zelda, and pretty much the entire cast. The thing with Falco is that (as of now) he has no major approach tool like Sheik's Needles, Luigi's Fireballs, Pikachu's Thunder Jolts and Mario's Fireballs to cover approaches or do retreating hitbox placement, or something like raw speed that Captain Falcon, Roy, and Lucina have, something difficult to challenge and react to like Sonic's Spin Dash/Charge or Shulk and Ike's large disjoints, or even simple harassment tools like Fox's Blaster or Greninja's Water Shuriken because of the major end lag on Falco's Blaster or the small hitbox since while Ryu has the same end lag, he can vary the speed of his Hadouken and even change the way it hits by using Shakunetsu.

Falco essentially uses movement to approach and it's in a way similar to what Little Mac can probably do since he is a boxer. Short hop fast falls (SHFF), walking, fox trot, perfect pivot, dash dancing, and dashing are all things Falco makes a use of. It helps that his walking speed is fast, but it hurts because his running speed is slow. When it comes to putting out hitboxes on the ground, jab, Ftilt, and Dtilt are good for measuring space and poking. Sometimes Reflector, but make sure to hit or else you'll deal with a lot of end lag. In the air, Nair is good for putting out a lingering hitbox on Falco, Uair for frame trapping, Bair for a short, instant wall and punish, especially if you do something like SHFF while facing away from your opponent, and retreating Fair might work. When people approach you, Falco can anti-air with Utilt, Ftilt, Side Smash, and Up Smash, but the last two are risky if you miss. Or he could meet them head on with Nair, Uair, Fair, or Bair before they hit or Reflector from a safe distance.

So, walk around, be a presence and pressure them. Don't go all in until you see an opening. Falco doesn't have to run unless he really needs to cover distance.
 

Attila_

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I tomahawk A LOT in neutral. Mix it up between facing forward or back.

When facing forward, aim to bait a whiffed grounded option and punish with fair, when facing back, stop approaches with a ff bair.

When closer, mixing up jabs and dtilt on shield is staple.
 

Zionaze

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For the platforms on BF or DL and with taller characters like falcon. You can fullhop dair safely with no lag. Not sure how useful this'll be.
 

NotAnAdmin

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I completely forgot about that, you can double dip your opponent around 50-55% if the first dair connects I believe. Now that his dair isn't tech-able it might have some use.
Also you can dair when you let go of the ledge and space his double jump correctly and get no lag, it's a somewhat nice alternative to fairing onto the stage if you want to force your way past your opponent.
 

da K.I.D.

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I was playing around in training mode and I noticed that against sheik at 0 you can do down throw to perfect pivot nair, did you guys know this was possible? Its actually pretty dope. I did what I think is inescapable for sheik.

at 0 with no rage. Down throw to Perfect pivot forward into either up tilt x3 into full jump bair, into falling bair for 58% (this is in training mode, so it will do less damage in matches with the staled moved.
or you can do d throw into PP up tilt x4 (the 4th up tilt only hits with the second hit) intofull jump up air, falling up air, for i think 55%

Did anybody know about this or has it never been tried before?
 

NotAnAdmin

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 21, 2014
Messages
426
I don't think anyone has really messed around with PP off his dthrow because you can still land a nair/fair/bair off it just as easily. At low percent like that you can reset the string with another grab and go to town with an up-throw into a up-air > fair, or just up-air them to 50-60% like Capt would, then try to end it with a well read bair or fair.

I feel like PP'ing could be somewhat useful, but the ways you stated seem to be perfectly viable if you land the grab at that early a percent.
Also another idea, wouldn't fthrow PP>face forward>up-tilt/ftilt be a good follow-up around probably 30% or so?
 
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