Meta Falco: Approaches and Combos/Strings

ligersandtigons

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so what exactly is FF Nair to drag down opponents useful for? gimping only (or would falco fall too low and SD lol)?
 

Chatmanm

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so what exactly is FF Nair to drag down opponents useful for? gimping only (or would

I usually try not to FF cause when I do I end up dying. I also opt for Fair more than Nair because of the angle it sends at and the possibility of them falling out of it and getting semi spiked
 

Ffamran

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Apparently, there's a footstool setup from falling Nair, but I doubt it would be safe since landing with Nair results in 15 landing frames unless you manage to perfect land with its last hit or before, you would need to fall with it hoping the opponent falls under you, and hope that Fire Bird doesn't drop people immediately -- it dropped Meta Knight in this video, but not immediately -- because of how spotty it can be as an attack... why...

Also, I didn't post it in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/potential-footstool-jab-lock-combo.434137/, since it doesn't lead to a reset, but to Fire Bird itself. Although, you could modify it to perform a reset like in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_am58FSxHs.
 
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Snipnigth

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Contributing to the tread, here's my opinion about Falco's neutral and how to improve it as a player :

https://twitter.com/EVK_Anragon/status/739386169222389760
I was contemplating the same thing when i was analyzing, he has literally no pressure tool, he must rely on been unpredictably to make some kind of offense, bait something or make the opponent wiff an attack with your movements and falcos movements are kinda bad and predictable, the only relatively safe approach you have its bair and it must be well spaced, or else youll get punished, if we could get 10 frames of landing lag on his up air, his game would improve a lot, but right now i see that falco its a very risky character with low rewards. Other safe approach could be sh into sideb, realatively safe but you must do it in a way that you opponent wont expect it or youll get punished hard.
 

Ffamran

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I was contemplating the same thing when i was analyzing, he has literally no pressure tool, he must rely on been unpredictably to make some kind of offense, bait something or make the opponent wiff an attack with your movements and falcos movements are kinda bad and predictable, the only relatively safe approach you have its bair and it must be well spaced, or else youll get punished, if we could get 10 frames of landing lag on his up air, his game would improve a lot, but right now i see that falco its a very risky character with low rewards. Other safe approach could be sh into sideb, realatively safe but you must do it in a way that you opponent wont expect it or youll get punished hard.
If Blaster was at least usable as a zoning tool like Hadouken is, Falco's neutral would shoot up from being pretty poor and movement dependent to more average and at least more flexible. Being movement dependent as Falco is really crappy since characters who do work movement neutral are much faster and have other options like Captain Falcon and for raw speed or Marth who has a sword to put safe pressure from a close-ranged distance and Ryu whose myriad of normals and usable zoning tool work with his Street Fighter-esque jump arc, low walk speed, and average run speed.

Bair doesn't exactly have good horizontal range; Falco's Bair range matches Fox who is shorter than Falco. His aerials in general are more of air-to-air to air-to-ground in Smash 4; lack of (usable) low-angled or a divekick like Melee and Brawl Bair's front hit, Melee and Brawl's Dair, low recovery aerial like all of Melee's because of L-canceling or Brawl's 9 landing frame Nair, or more crossup like Melee and Brawl Bair and Melee Nair and Dair since he only really has Uair in Smash 4. Falco Phantasm isn't really a good approach tool when its hitbox is only half of its distance, Falco's hurtbox is raised because of the pose they gave him, and I'm pretty sure Falco moves slower than Fox does during Fox Illusion. The only upsides is that it does spike which I find broken considering even with half its hitbox, it's still the large spike in the game. I wonder if Falco would rather have a Falco Phantasm with half its distance to at least match its hitbox and have lower recovery, cooldown, on it or a command dash like K', Laura, and Vanessa? Would work with the whole "phantasm" thing to feint and freakout people.

In a way, Falco sort of functions more like Guile from Street Fighter where he should be the one controlling space and forcing poor approaches and reacting to them than going in to pressure like de-cloned Nash in Street Fighter V or Ken. Except, that can't happen when Blaster is just plain bad and pretty useless in all game modes. Can't really KO steal when Falco's Blaster causes hit stun which refreshes recovery moves unlike Fox's who just tags people or Bayonetta who can outright KO people with her Charge Bullets (charged Bullet Climax), gimping is a pipe dream against most players who will always try to save their jump, and damage is pointless when its damage per hit is low, its damage per second is slow, and the risk is really high. And that's within the chaos of FFA. Focus it more in teams and 1v1 where everyone can see what Falco is doing more easily.
 

Snipnigth

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If Blaster was at least usable as a zoning tool like Hadouken is, Falco's neutral would shoot up from being pretty poor and movement dependent to more average and at least more flexible. Being movement dependent as Falco is really crappy since characters who do work movement neutral are much faster and have other options like Captain Falcon and for raw speed or Marth who has a sword to put safe pressure from a close-ranged distance and Ryu whose myriad of normals and usable zoning tool work with his Street Fighter-esque jump arc, low walk speed, and average run speed.

Bair doesn't exactly have good horizontal range; Falco's Bair range matches Fox who is shorter than Falco. His aerials in general are more of air-to-air to air-to-ground in Smash 4; lack of (usable) low-angled or a divekick like Melee and Brawl Bair's front hit, Melee and Brawl's Dair, low recovery aerial like all of Melee's because of L-canceling or Brawl's 9 landing frame Nair, or more crossup like Melee and Brawl Bair and Melee Nair and Dair since he only really has Uair in Smash 4. Falco Phantasm isn't really a good approach tool when its hitbox is only half of its distance, Falco's hurtbox is raised because of the pose they gave him, and I'm pretty sure Falco moves slower than Fox does during Fox Illusion. The only upsides is that it does spike which I find broken considering even with half its hitbox, it's still the large spike in the game. I wonder if Falco would rather have a Falco Phantasm with half its distance to at least match its hitbox and have lower recovery, cooldown, on it or a command dash like K', Laura, and Vanessa? Would work with the whole "phantasm" thing to feint and freakout people.

In a way, Falco sort of functions more like Guile from Street Fighter where he should be the one controlling space and forcing poor approaches and reacting to them than going in to pressure like de-cloned Nash in Street Fighter V or Ken. Except, that can't happen when Blaster is just plain bad and pretty useless in all game modes. Can't really KO steal when Falco's Blaster causes hit stun which refreshes recovery moves unlike Fox's who just tags people or Bayonetta who can outright KO people with her Charge Bullets (charged Bullet Climax), gimping is a pipe dream against most players who will always try to save their jump, and damage is pointless when its damage per hit is low, its damage per second is slow, and the risk is really high. And that's within the chaos of FFA. Focus it more in teams and 1v1 where everyone can see what Falco is doing more easily.
I agree with you on the laser, right now for it to be safe you have to use almost at max range, maybe the best use for it right now is to shoot ppl that are foxtroting in and out and also off stage to force opponents to recover low.

If Falco relies more on movement to make opponents wiff atacks and such, woudent it be more advantageos to use walk, falcos walk speed its almost the same as his running speed, with the "attack" on the c-stick instead of smash Falco can instantly throw a tilt while moving, maybe even anti-air some sh aerial enemy aproaches with utitlt and stop dashing opponents with dtilt or ftilt, you can shield faster as well, and initiate a run if needed, maybe walking its a much better option for falco in many cases since you can react with all your ground atacks and defenses much faster than running.

And i agree on Bair too, it really only works as an offense vs tall characters like c falcon or zss, but on short characters it will mostly wiff, so maybe bair isint the safest pressure option, its also true than falcos aerials are more suited for ppl that are already in the air, but the last hit of nair if well spaced can actually be a safe pressure tool, even with 15 frames of landing lag its kinda hard to punish if you hit the shield. But sh-phantasma, if you get used to its hitbox range then you can use it in some situations, when your oponent is not expecting it, when they dash in you dash out then when you see them wiff a dash attack or grab you sh phantasma if they block it they wont be able to punish and if it hits then you can combo into some good stuff and even get a bair kill, but as you say, its risky cause his hutbox is larger and its even slower than foxes making it more predictible.

PS: is there any information about characters hitboxes and hurtboxes and also is there any information about the moves falco can do onstage to hit ppl on the 2 frame window?, i know dsmash works and i think dtilt works sometimes too.
 
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Ffamran

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I agree with you on the laser, right now for it to be safe you have to use almost at max range, maybe the best use for it right now is to shoot ppl that are foxtroting in and out and also off stage to force opponents to recover low.
Max range isn't exactly ideal and there are characters who are fast enough they could just run up and punish Falco. Blaster can be used as a combo extender if you know you can't make it from a D-throw or something.

The problem with Blaster is that as a projectile, it should be at least safe from half its range and definitely at max range. Some projectiles are even somewhat safe at pointblank like Cloud, Lucas, Luigi, Ness, Ryu, and Yoshi's despite not being chargeable like Lucario, Mewtwo, and Samus or have something special like being items like the Links and Peach's, can stun like ZSS's, or has a melee hitbox like Corrin's. This is mostly because they don't have set knockback, so they can send people out with enough hit stun that it's relatively safe. By being risky even at max range where the reward is some damage and some hit stun compared to some damage, good hit stun, or even able to KO like charge projectiles, it defeats the purpose of being a projectile.

Being able to fire continuously is definitely a nod to the Star Fox games, but the problem with that is because it does hit stun, it's just really annoying, especially for lower-level players. Also, in Star Fox, lasers don't do hit stun, they just do damage and maybe the ship will shake a little, but not like in Smash; lasers function more like Fox's. Remembering that Falco could fire twice as fast as he could now and had pretty much infinite range since his lasers traveled from one end of a stage and past it to the the blast zone in Melee and Brawl, Blaster wasn't a "fun" move. It was really, really abusive even if you didn't auto-cancel it. As a game focused on knockback, there isn't a point to it being able to continuously fire with hit stun since all Falco could do is just sit there firing away stalling someone instead of doing significant knockback. In teams and FFA (free-for-all), others would just punish Falco for doing that. Against off-stage opponents and in FFA, he'd reset a character's recovery moves if he hits them unlike Fox who can tag someone and KO steal. He can try to gimp people, but it's not as easy since recovery moves and recovering are much stronger in Smash 4; Falco would be better off hitting them with an aerial instead of with Blaster. All of that, in my opinion, makes Falco's Blaster pointless and a conflict of interest not just for Smash, but as a game where people should be able to do stuff and not get pelted by stun lasers. Even in a shooter, Falco's Blaster would be extremely annoying compared to a more regular gun doing hit stun, but not zapping you.

Falco should have a unique a projectile or Blaster. It's easy to make it functional and not abusive like making it into Fox's Impact Blaster, but all you would do is give Falco a hit stun version of Fox's Blaster that can't fire continuously, so it's like Wolf's, but Wolf's got a melee hit, doesn't have set knockback, and its hitbox is much better at the cost of some range. It becomes a bit boring compared to Fox's rapid-fire damage Blaster and Wolf's close-range capable Blaster. At the same time, I don't think it should be what it is since its concept doesn't seem to work well with Smash. Dropping its recovery would make it great for zoning, but it's still capable of continuous fire. Blaster with 35 or lower frames of recovery and being able to pelt you with stun lasers isn't exactly nice for people. Take out its continuous fire and it becomes pretty generic.

If Falco relies more on movement to make opponents wiff atacks and such, woudent it be more advantageos to use walk, falcos walk speed its almost the same as his running speed, with the "attack" on the c-stick instead of smash Falco can instantly throw a tilt while moving, maybe even anti-air some sh aerial enemy aproaches with utitlt and stop dashing opponents with dtilt or ftilt, you can shield faster as well, and initiate a run if needed, maybe walking its a much better option for falco in many cases since you can react with all your ground atacks and defenses much faster than running.
Walking is good, but there is a problem where Falco can get overrun since he can't outrun his opponents or create quick space like really fast characters or even Mario who's just average. Falco Phantasm can work, but you have to deal with its 18 frame startup. The problem is that Falco doesn't have any other choice during neutral. It's purely movement-based and Falco lacks ground speed, powerful jump-ins, a natural disjoint like Marth's Falchion... Falco lacks options in neutral. Meta Knight can walk around, but then you have to add in that he has multiple jumps allowing him to harass with aerials, fast run speed to suddenly change the pace, dash attack pushes him forward quickly unlike Falco who doesn't move as fast, and he also has a bait through Side Smash. Or with the Ryu example in my previous post, Ryu has a much more normals, Ryu has more coverage, range, and safety with his jump-in aerials like his Nair and Fair can work as cross-ups with Nair having lower commitment because of its lower landing lag at the cost of range while Fair has a hitbox on his upper leg that does more shield damage and Bair just has good range and insane damage throughout its 3 active frames; and Ryu has a zoning tool Hadouken which he can vary its speed or even change its properties by inputting Shakunetsu.

Falco doesn't really have that and it's why I consider Falco to be a character without a complete or cohesive game plan. That problem also damages Falco's niche since if he could zone, Falco could be the Guile or the "Street Fighter Smash character" like how Ryu is the "Street Fighter character in Smash". Right now, Falco has to do a bunch of other things to try and make up for an incomplete game plan and a lack of a niche. He has to edgeguard which he is good, but not the best, he plays footsies, but not being able to get in as easily and Smash not having block strings along with Falco not being a sword user or Ryu makes it a bit difficult for Falco to poke with his normals, and he has to play like how Captain Falcon, Fox, Marth, Roy, and Ryu play, but he doesn't have the speed or the aerials to pressure like that. Falco gets forced into an up-close pressure and rushdown play style which he isn't built for and ironically, is probably what the developers didn't want him to be when you consider how much of a monster he was in Melee and somewhat Brawl when it he was able to zone and rushdown at the same time and overwhelmingly.

Falco still does have one half of his game plan and niche: his combo style. No character really combos like him where you can freely do whatever and can setup with whatever. Most characters rely on a few setup moves and followup with a few moves. Since Melee, Falco was always able to pick depending on what he wanted to do; 1 setup move can lead to 5 different followups unlike other characters where 1 setup move tends to lead to 1 or 2. That's why people love playing and watching Falco play even when he's overwhelming and people know he's broken since he made combo videos possible and practical instead of just concepts. In the case of Brawl, mechanics didn't let him -- major reason why Captain Falcon fell so hard in Brawl --, but he had a strong zoning game to chip people to death and chain-grabs which definitely gave him a stigma if he didn't already have one. In Smash 4, the question is how do you make that happen? Can't zone, too slow and shouldn't be fast or else Fox would be pointless, and isn't built for approaching. So, it doesn't happen. As fun as he can be, he just can't make it happen, so he isn't fun and for his players, it becomes really frustrating knowing you can't do much during neutral and to close mid-range.

And i agree on Bair too, it really only works as an offense vs tall characters like c falcon or zss, but on short characters it will mostly wiff, so maybe bair isint the safest pressure option, its also true than falcos aerials are more suited for ppl that are already in the air, but the last hit of nair if well spaced can actually be a safe pressure tool, even with 15 frames of landing lag its kinda hard to punish if you hit the shield. But sh-phantasma, if you get used to its hitbox range then you can use it in some situations, when your oponent is not expecting it, when they dash in you dash out then when you see them wiff a dash attack or grab you sh phantasma if they block it they wont be able to punish and if it hits then you can combo into some good stuff and even get a bair kill, but as you say, its risky cause his hutbox is larger and its even slower than foxes making it more predictible.
The problem with Nair is that you do have to commit to it and it's not exactly subtle as Fox putting out a Nair or Link putting out a Bair. Auto-cancel just makes those aerials much more safer despite them having low landing lag since you don't have to always frame sync with his last hit of Nair on-shield or on-hit to have insignificant landing lag like with Falco's Nair. Uair might be able to work as a pressure like Bair, but I don't know. It's kind of weird and the auto-cancel isn't as forgiving as Bair's.

Both Falco and Fox's Side Specials are telegraphed since they're both above frame 16 when stuff becomes more react-able. Thing is that since they don't hit in front, they can easily get punished even by accident like say someone decides to dash attack, but did it too early, well, you just dashed into their hitbox. It can work, but Fox just has more coverage and moves faster. Fox can at least try to clank throughout the entire move, but Falco can't. The way Falco Phantasm works is a bit disheartening.

As recovery moves, Fire Bird and Falco Phantasm are really slower and worse versions of Fox's which no character has. Fire Bird travels about an average distance that other vertical Up Specials do, but at twice to even four times the startup and compared to Fire Fox, travels less, travels slower, and is inconsistent since it fails to connect properly. The upside? Chance of being able to do 31%, but Fire Fox can do that too and it can KO. Falco Phantasm travels the same length, but has half its hitbox, travels slower, and raises Falco's hurtbox. In return? It keeps its slightly faster startup from past games, does more damage, and can spike. It becomes more disheartening when you compare Burst Blaster to Fox's Blaster and Fire Bird to Fox's Twisting Fox and Distant Fire Bird to Fire Fox. All of Fox's end up being strictly better than Falco's and it's kind of disgusting. Burst Blaster has shorter range, lower overall damage, the same recovery, and slightly lower or equal fire rate to Fox's Blaster, Fire Bird is an inconsistent, incapable of KO'ing, and same traveling Twisting Fox, and Distant Fire Bird still travels less than Fire Fox, but also takes longer to launch, travels even slower than Fire Bird, can't KO at all, and lacks a charging hitbox. At that point, I'm questioning why those moves even exist. You can look at Corrin, Lucina/Marth, and Roy's or Dr. Mario, Luigi, and Mario's Up Specials and you can see how they're all different and function fine. Potential damage doesn't mean anything when Corrin and Roy can guarantee their multi-hitting Up Specials will connect and even KO or that Luigi's Super Jump Punch works on huge risk and huge reward or Dr. Mario trading vertical lift from his Super Jump Punch for consistent, high reward to contrast Luigi and has access to a different means of recovery, Doctor Tornado, to counter his SJP having lower vertical lift and contrast with Mario. None of them have a strictly better Up Special to the other. None of the other clone characters have that either like Captain Falcon and Ganondorf or Link and Toon Link.

PS: is there any information about characters hitboxes and hurtboxes and also is there any information about the moves falco can do onstage to hit ppl on the 2 frame window?, i know dsmash works and i think dtilt works sometimes too.
I remember BltzZ talking about Utilt, but I don't think Utilt hits that low... Maybe he was talking about ledge coverage. There's Side Smash, but that's slow and it's better for a ledge re-grab punish. Otherwise, probably angled down Ftilt and Up Smash as seen here.
As an update: Falco's buffed Up Smash now hits opponents who are on the ledge and will stage spike them around 84 - 85%+ and if the jump off of the ledge.

 
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54BR3 WU1F

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I've kinda been having trouble with Falco in Smash 4 lately so can anyone help me because I used to be really great with him but for some reason I've been losing to people I've beaten before. Also, I need help with how to deal with super heavyweights like Bowser. Please help me.
 

SilverQuik24

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Juggle heavyweights. Get an uthrow, and just keep going for uair and utilt to keep them above. Most of them have awful landing options and you can get easy punishes
 

54BR3 WU1F

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Juggle heavyweights. Get an uthrow, and just keep going for uair and utilt to keep them above. Most of them have awful landing options and you can get easy punishes
Well, I try to, but with uair and utilt with :4bowser: , it's pretty hard because I always end up getting Bowser Bombed. So, as a result of this, I've just been playing Charizard whenever I'm up against a :4bowser: but I'll try Falco again.
 

Snipnigth

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Well, I try to, but with uair and utilt with :4bowser: , it's pretty hard because I always end up getting Bowser Bombed. So, as a result of this, I've just been playing Charizard whenever I'm up against a :4bowser: but I'll try Falco again.
if you know bowser is going for that bait a jump into upair, simply jump and dont do the uair, when you see him doing the bomb, dodge or get out of the way fast fall into the ground and punish his landing lagg, with good timing you can atually beat bowsers bomb before he lands with your uair too, but its risky cuz if you miss the timming yu can get hit.
 
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54BR3 WU1F

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if you know bowser is going for that bait a jump into upair, simply jump and dont do the uair, when you see him doing the bomb, dodge or get out of the way fast fall into the ground and punish his landing lagg, with good timing you can atually beat bowsers bomb before he lands with your uair too, but its risky cuz if you miss the timming yu can get hit.
I'll try that at the next tournament I go to which is next tuesday so, if I'm up against a :4bowser: main then I hope I get to beat them!
 

Snipnigth

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And i kind of agree with you 54BR3 WU1F, on Falco not been so good vs heavywight, Falco has almost no safe landing options and his aerials all have terrible landing lag, meaning you can get punished easily, and big guys like bowser and charizard run pretty fast and can get those punishes easily if your not carefull, Falco is also a feather weight character meaning, it just takes a few good hits from a chari or bowser to get you into kill %....also them been heavy makes it really hard for the bird to get kills even with bair, normally you kill ppl at 90%-120% with bair, but vs heavy guys and good DI, youll probably end up getting the kill with bair at around 150%
 
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ligersandtigons

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And i kind of agree with you 54BR3 WU1F, on Falco not been so good vs heavywight, Falco has almost no safe landing options and his aerials all have terrible landing lag, meaning you can get punished easily, and big guys like bowser and charizard run pretty fast and can get those punishes easily if your not carefull, Falco is also a feather weight character meaning, it just takes a few good hits from a chari or bowser to get you into kill %....also them been heavy makes it really hard for the bird to get kills even with bair, normally you kill ppl at 90%-120% with bair, but vs heavy guys and good DI, youll probably end up getting the kill with bair at around 150%
against heavyweights, i get most of my kills through edgeguarding or catching a landing with an up smash
 

Snipnigth

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against heavyweights, i get most of my kills through edgeguarding or catching a landing with an up smash
Yeah...didint thought about that upsmash works better vs heavyguys, but has tons of ends lagg so must be used wisely, you can even beat moves with it since the last patch made falcos leggs invincible when the hitbox is out, kinda like marios and game and watch upsmash where their heads are invicible during that move.

Falco has a great eadgeguarding game, but no safe way to get back on stage, you can lose a stock easily if you miss the gimp since falcos firebird stalls for a bit before launching him, easy target for a dair, but vs characters like bowser you can go for it, since bowser dosent have the greatest eadgeguarding game, plus he cant dair you, nair, and fair, are greart, sometimes dair is good, since it can get you an early meteor kill, and if you miss the sweet sport still has a lasting sourspot.

landing bairs on big targets is the easiest thing ever, you can even run up to them and RAR Bair, on smaller targets this wont work unless they SH. But ligersandtigons has a point i think killing from the top is easier vs heavy guys, unless they are close to the eadge.
 
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So I haven't really seen much of a mention of this here, but Falco's foxtrot actually makes him look quite a lot faster than he actually is, especially if you can combine it with normal dash dancing. His foxtrots are actually 12 frames and the same distance as a bunch of other characters with faster runspeeds, so I'm starting to think there's actually a significant difference between Falco's dash speed and run speed, or it has to do with the start of the dash when he turns around. In any case, this is a really good tool to make your neutral harder to read and it looks super flashy and intimidating so I think it'd be beneficial to get really consistent with this. We should take every option we can get.
 

Snipnigth

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So I haven't really seen much of a mention of this here, but Falco's foxtrot actually makes him look quite a lot faster than he actually is, especially if you can combine it with normal dash dancing. His foxtrots are actually 12 frames and the same distance as a bunch of other characters with faster runspeeds, so I'm starting to think there's actually a significant difference between Falco's dash speed and run speed, or it has to do with the start of the dash when he turns around. In any case, this is a really good tool to make your neutral harder to read and it looks super flashy and intimidating so I think it'd be beneficial to get really consistent with this. We should take every option we can get.
Yes i was reading an aticle on Falcos neutral, he depends a lot on movement to make his neutral work, since he dosent have any good aproaches you must make him guess and make him aproach, foxtrot, and dash dancing are great to make opponents wiff dash atacks and grabs, walking is excelent too its almost as fast as his running speed and can put up a shield or a tilt faster than you would running, and falcos tilts are really really good, uptilt can beat/trade with almost any sh aproach, the same can be said of angled up ftilt.

This this is not gonna help Falco getting to far in this game tho, he still needs some landinglagg reduction on one aerial at least (a 10 frame landing lagg uair would be amazing) for him to actually be a good character, a laser with lower ending lagg so we can efficiently use it to force opponent aproaches with out the risk of been punished so easily, a longer hitbox on bair could be good to, and a bit more running speed can help too so Falco can tech chase better, but if they reduce the lagg on laser and to uair then i think his running speed is ok.
 
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Yeah I think Falco could use some buffs, don't get me wrong. He's kind of a poor man's Mario right now. Mario does basically everything Falco does, except that he gets more damage or stage positioning out of most situations. A buffed laser would fix this issue. I honestly feel like a lot of things won't actually make Falco a character to win a national with though.

Also, I would be happy even if they just buffed his shine to be a safer option in neutral. That would actually give him a very good zoning option and he could force his whole neutral game to be a 50-50 where he punishes aerial approaches with uptilt, upsmash or an aerial of his own and grounded approaches with shine. Right now it feels just a little bit too laggy. Or if they don't want shine to be safe they could at least make it safe on hit. If it doesn't trip, some characters can actually just get hit, run up and grab before my animation ends. It could also have a hitbox on the way back that leads into grab, that would be amazing.
 
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Falco's approaches are fine honestly. He has a really good initial dash that allows him to use his long range tilts out of a dash / fox trot easily unlike many other characters in this game. Spaced Fair and Bair are also relatively safe approaches as well.

IMO the real issue with Falco is is insanely exploitable recovery which is shown to be a devasting weakness in every level of play. Many characters can easily win against him by just throwing him off the stage and edge guarding him after he loses his double jump. Both Fire Bird and Falco Phantasm need significant startup and hitbox buffs since both moves are just way too slow at the moment.
 

Snipnigth

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Falco's approaches are fine honestly. He has a really good initial dash that allows him to use his long range tilts out of a dash / fox trot easily unlike many other characters in this game. Spaced Fair and Bair are also relatively safe approaches as well.

IMO the real issue with Falco is is insanely exploitable recovery which is shown to be a devasting weakness in every level of play. Many characters can easily win against him by just throwing him off the stage and edge guarding him after he loses his double jump. Both Fire Bird and Falco Phantasm need significant startup and hitbox buffs since both moves are just way too slow at the moment.
Honestly o dont agree with you, falcos aproaches are bad, his best has you said is spaced bair, spaced fair is bad, tons of lag even with the landing hitbox opponent will be able to punish, and bair, if you dont space it perfectly your gonna get punihsed and even then some character can still punish it. i belive spaced nair if you get the last hit from the nair its a lot better than fair, landing with fair is good tho most ppl dont expect the landing hitbox, and it sometimes makes grabs wiff since falco prone on the stage when he lands with it but its still verry punishable. Honestly Falcos aproaches are unsafe and bad.

I belive phantasma needs a faster start up and the hitbox i dont think they are gonna change that, he is like that since melee, but i hope it happens, fire bird is ok, i wish it hitted harder and better tho, falcos firebird is shorter than foxes because falco jumps so much higher than him, thats why i think his firebird is ok. Also foxes recovery is verry easily gimped like falcos, same goes for capitan falcon and for cloud, and they are all verry good and reliavle/consistant characers, Falcos recovery is not the problem here, just play keeping in mind that been offstage or at the edge of the stage is not good. With better aproches and lower landing lag on uair or nair Falco could maintain much better the stage control and would be forced offstage much less, meaning the opponent would have a harder time taking advantage of Falcos predictable and gimpable recovery.

I belive lower landing lagg in uair could be the best buff falco can get, with that he gets a safe aproche, safe landing option, and tons of combo potential and kill confirm combos, SH-FF-UAir is a great combostarter but its verry unsafe right now because of its 15 frame landing lagg. I mean just look at C. Falcons uair, has 9 frames of landing lagg, thx to that he can sh uair on your shield, and land safely in front of you, if you drop shield your gonna get jabcomboed or jab jab into grab, if you dont drop shield your gonna get grabed, it forces the oponent to back away, thats a good aproach, plus if he gets the hit, he gets a free combo with another uair, or if the opponent is close to the edge he can dair you and end your stock at 50%, or the most epic one and harder to pull but still posible, THE KNEE (FAIR), with 10 fames of landing lag in falcos uair, he could do all of these combos, even the upair to dair, with no risk, but right now, if you try it and hit the shield youll get punished.
 
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Isn't upair already safe on shield if you land behind them? Unless this isn't the case, it's perfectly fine like this. They won't reduce the landing lag so much that you can't get shieldgrabbed for landing upair on shield, that would be a bit too free.

Besides, you can usually shieldpoke if you land with fair so if you can't cross up just do that.
 
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Snipnigth

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Isn't upair already safe on shield if you land behind them? Unless this isn't the case, it's perfectly fine like this. They won't reduce the landing lag so much that you can't get shieldgrabbed for landing upair, that would be a bit too free.

Besides, you can usually shieldpoke if you land with fair so if you can't cross up just do that.
C. Falcos falling uair is 9 frames of landing lagg its unpunishable, you try anything youll get hit by a jab, and if you dont back away youll get grabed. with falco even if you land behind them with Uair, a good player can still turn around and punish.
 
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Falcon has long enough legs to land just outside of shieldgrab range, so they have to try a long range move, which will either have some extra frames for dropping shield and then their fastest option. With Falco it's just a matter of pressing A while in shield, which foregoes the frames of dropping shield.

I'm not sure about the safety on crossup, that's why I'm asking. I don't use landing upair unless it's to condition them to hold shield mostly. More safety is always welcome, but I don't think this would change all that much honestly.
 

Snipnigth

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Falcon has long enough legs to land just outside of shieldgrab range, so they have to try a long range move, which will either have some extra frames for dropping shield and then their fastest option. With Falco it's just a matter of pressing A while in shield, which foregoes the frames of dropping shield.

I'm not sure about the safety on crossup, that's why I'm asking. I don't use landing upair unless it's to condition them to hold shield mostly. More safety is always welcome, but I don't think this would change all that much honestly.
I agree it woudent change much but itll give to falco something he dosent have, a safe landing aerial/combostarter/killconfirm option, and if you look at the tier thats something most top tier have in commun, he would at least bump up a tier.
 

Ffamran

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I've kinda been having trouble with Falco in Smash 4 lately so can anyone help me because I used to be really great with him but for some reason I've been losing to people I've beaten before. Also, I need help with how to deal with super heavyweights like Bowser. Please help me.
A bit dated, but check the Bowser MU thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-30-bowser-star-falco-adventures.401358/.

It might be better to ask Cyro since he has fought Xadrin, a Bowser player, a lot and would have more insight for you. Consider joining the Falco discord as well since it might be easier to ask other players in real time. That being said, archiving and archived information are some things the Falco boards should serve.

Oh, and check this thread for the rest of the MU threads: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-thread-main-post.370767/.

Yeah I think Falco could use some buffs, don't get me wrong. He's kind of a poor man's Mario right now. Mario does basically everything Falco does, except that he gets more damage or stage positioning out of most situations. A buffed laser would fix this issue. I honestly feel like a lot of things won't actually make Falco a character to win a national with though.

Also, I would be happy even if they just buffed his shine to be a safer option in neutral. That would actually give him a very good zoning option and he could force his whole neutral game to be a 50-50 where he punishes aerial approaches with uptilt, upsmash or an aerial of his own and grounded approaches with shine. Right now it feels just a little bit too laggy. Or if they don't want shine to be safe they could at least make it safe on hit. If it doesn't trip, some characters can actually just get hit, run up and grab before my animation ends. It could also have a hitbox on the way back that leads into grab, that would be amazing.
I don't get how Falco functions anything similar to Mario as Mario is a more of a rushdown, get in pressure style of character... Rushdown shouldn't be completely attributed to speed as there's other factor like how a characters moves allows them to pressure. I'm not comfortable saying who Falco is more similar to in this game because the biggest problem with Falco is his lack of an identity and niche when it comes his game plan. That pretty much forces one thing onto Falco: you have to compare him to everyone and everyone does everything better than Falco. Without a niche, Falco is barebones. All of this falls onto one thing: Blaster. If Blaster was a usable option, he'd be the Guile of Smash, a character who zones, controls the pace of the battle, which makes you approach, so Falco reacts by countering poor approaches with his versatile close-range normals, anti-airs you, or meets with his good air-to-air aerials. He's not really supposed to approach, but he can if he needs to like any character. That can't happen when he's forced to play a purely movement-based neutral while being a character with low horizontal mobility. Even with high mobility, that sort of neutral wouldn't be ideal as it's limiting; characters like Captain Falcon, Fox, Little Mac, and Sonic have other options to complement their high mobility and even slower characters like Ganondorf and Villager can complement their neutrals with movement rather than have to rely entirely on movement.

For Reflector, you do have to keep in mind that it's, as of current knowledge, the fastest reflect on frame 1 with its reflect lasting for 33 frames. They don't really want you to be able to spam a forward-moving reflect like that... As a hit, it's frame 5 with 10 active frames and it's transcendent meaning it ignores any hitboxes and goes for only hurtboxes, so you can't really challenge it unless you hit Falco first. They really don't want you to be able to spam a move like that. I guess the problem is that because of Blaster's uselessness in neutral and zoning, people do look to Reflector for that and it's not supposed to be a neutral or zoning tool, but a challenge -- Reflector's a good anti-air and approach punish because of its hitbox --, mixup, poke, and of course, a reflector.

Falco's approaches are fine honestly. He has a really good initial dash that allows him to use his long range tilts out of a dash / fox trot easily unlike many other characters in this game. Spaced Fair and Bair are also relatively safe approaches as well.

IMO the real issue with Falco is is insanely exploitable recovery which is shown to be a devasting weakness in every level of play. Many characters can easily win against him by just throwing him off the stage and edge guarding him after he loses his double jump. Both Fire Bird and Falco Phantasm need significant startup and hitbox buffs since both moves are just way too slow at the moment.
I feel like you're confusing approach with movement... Falco's movement is flexible and good despite him being slow horizontally. It's why he can be deceptively agile. For approaches, I do agree with one thing: it's fine. Falco doesn't need to have a good approach; Guile doesn't need to have a good approach. It's not really "them"; they're zoners not rushdowns and/or in your face pressure characters like Fox and Wolf or Ken and Nash. Falco with a good approach is pretty scary... Melee and Brawl anyone? He really shouldn't be approaching with a projectile, especially one with pretty good range or insane range in Melee and Brawl. If he did, he'd need Luigi's Fireball or Mega Man's pellet short range which would kill the zoning part Falco should be doing.

I belive phantasma needs a faster start up and the hitbox i dont think they are gonna change that, he is like that since melee, but i hope it happens, fire bird is ok, i wish it hitted harder and better tho, falcos firebird is shorter than foxes because falco jumps so much higher than him, thats why i think his firebird is ok. Also foxes recovery is verry easily gimped like falcos, same goes for capitan falcon and for cloud, and they are all verry good and reliavle/consistant characers, Falcos recovery is not the problem here, just play keeping in mind that been offstage or at the edge of the stage is not good. With better aproches and lower landing lag on uair or nair Falco could maintain much better the stage control and would be forced offstage much less, meaning the opponent would have a harder time taking advantage of Falcos predictable and gimpable recovery.
Dude, Falco Phantasm being any faster would be stupid. Remember Brawl? Falco Phantasm in that game traveled much faster than in Melee and Smash 4 with Smash 4 being the slowest? -- it's noticeably slower than Fox Illusion. For Fire Bird, yes, Falco's jump is high, but you have to consider Fire Wolf, Greninja, Luigi, Rosalina, and ZSS exist. Fire Wolf is what Fire Bird should have been in Brawl. Fire Wolf had half of Fire Bird and Fire Fox's startup, but traveled a bit further than Fire Bird. It had no charging hitbox which is fine since it's frame 22-ish and it also had poor connection, but it's pretty much the faster recovery. What Wolf should have had for an Up Special? LIGHTNING TORNADO! Basically an electric version of Twisting Fox. Falco could have just kept 64 Fox's Fire Fox or his Melee Fire Bird. Pure offense at the cost of recovery... Anyway, Greninja, Luigi, Rosalina, and ZSS are also high jumpers. Three of them have difficult to challenge, fast, and flexible recoveries. Even though Luigi is exploitable, he really goes down deep enough where people get scared to try and challenge and Luigi doesn't really try to recover horizontally. For Rosalina, this is one where it's not really applicable since her recovery doesn't have a hitbox...

What makes Fox's recovery better than Falco's is the complete coverage and "guarantee" Fox's going to do some damage while Fire Fox's distance gives hope for Fox to try and recovery deep unlike Falco who is screwed sometimes even with his double jump. Fire Bird dropping and never KOing and Falco Phantasm's half travel hitbox makes Falco's recovery shakier. Fire Bird traveling slower and traveling less and Falco Phantasm traveling slower and raising Falco's hurtbox just makes it worse.

Falcon has long enough legs to land just outside of shieldgrab range, so they have to try a long range move, which will either have some extra frames for dropping shield and then their fastest option. With Falco it's just a matter of pressing A while in shield, which foregoes the frames of dropping shield.

I'm not sure about the safety on crossup, that's why I'm asking. I don't use landing upair unless it's to condition them to hold shield mostly. More safety is always welcome, but I don't think this would change all that much honestly.
There's also the fact that Captain Falcon's Uair is a back flip and not a front flip. Captain Falcon does not have to always have his back facing to hit with startup as he kicks front to back unlike Falco who kick back to front. Capt.'s better auto-cancel window and lower landing lag just makes it more usable for pressuring and "multi-juggling". Because of the hit style, Falco's is more of a "strong hit" juggle and setup. All of this is why I do not agree with the knockback changes to Falco's Uair in 1.0.8. The startup and consistent hitbox was only what Uair needed to be better. Changing it so the knockback resembles a "multi-juggle" Uair like Capt., Mario, and ZSS doesn't really work when Falco's much slower in the air and on the ground. It should have stayed as a "strong juggle" like Bayonetta, Cloud, Fox, Marth, Roy, Sonic, and Yoshi's. The change to its knockback makes it deceptively weak; Falco's Uair despite doing more damage than ZSS's, manages to KO later than hers. The angle changes didn't help this. With its old knockback, it would have been capable of doing what it does now, but also KO like it used to.

Edit: If people really want a jump-in aerial for Falco to approach with, I'd suggest for Nair to actually lose its auto-link angles and become Brawl Nair where it doesn't connect as well, but has low landing lag at 9 frames. Basically, Samus's Uair or Melee Falco L-canceled Fair. This would also widen the gap between Nair and Fair which has overlapped.
 
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54BR3 WU1F

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A bit dated, but check the Bowser MU thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-30-bowser-star-falco-adventures.401358/.

It might be better to ask Cyro since he has fought Xadrin, a Bowser player, a lot and would have more insight for you. Consider joining the Falco discord as well since it might be easier to ask other players in real time. That being said, archiving and archived information are some things the Falco boards should serve.

Oh, and check this thread for the rest of the MU threads: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-thread-main-post.370767/.
What do you mean by the Falco discord? I'm interested in finding out but I don't know what that is and I would like to ask people in real time.
 
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Snipnigth

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What do you mean by the Falco discord? I'm interested in finding out but I don't know what that is and I would like to ask people in real time.
https://discordapp.com/

^^^^^^ Discord is an voice chat aplication for the pc, downlad it and then ask for the link of the falco group in the forum i dont have it sorry :p.

and ffanram love you opinions you always ahve some really nice ones, really like your upair opinion and having the nair to just have 9 frames of landing lag it makes lot of sense.
 

Ffamran

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What do you mean by the Falco discord? I'm interested in finding out but I don't know what that is and I would like to ask people in real time.
Thread: smashboards.com/threads/falco-discord-server.419282/. This part might be more useful, though.
I'm not on Discord and I don't know how it works other than you probably need an account and maybe an invite, but I remember seeing an ad on one of McDareth's Falco crew battle videos and there's this: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IzSwY6yBzOqGd3yaoqjj7ZJ18TsLDj65_VWMMMK_E1o/edit?pref=2&pli=1, which became this in newer videos: http://smashcord.com/. Maybe use those instead?
and ffanram love you opinions you always ahve some really nice ones, really like your upair opinion and having the nair to just have 9 frames of landing lag it makes lot of sense.
Falco's Uair has always been weird and I have no idea why. Sour-spots I can understand, especially if they're there to counter really strong moves like Zelda's Fair and Bair or Marth and Roy's sweet and sour-spot mechanics, but in Falco's case, his Uair's body hitbox is Zelda's Fair and Bair territory in knockback on a move that was purposely made weak to counter Falco's high jump. Yes, it did 16% in Melee when fully connected, but it was a pure damage, hit once to start a juggle move unlike Fox's was also KO move. Brawl toned it down and made it the second front flip Uair after Pikachu's -- technically, Fox's is a front flip, but he hits linearly instead of arcing. It's still a "strong hit" juggle which differs it from Pikachu's "multi-hit" juggle; Pikachu's works because it's so fast on startup at frame 4 with its front hitbox around frame 6 to 7 which is pretty much what normal back flip Uairs and multi-hit Uairs start at e.g. Captain Falcon and ZSS's Uairs are frame 6. Problems? It was a bit slow which is also shared with Kirby's who also had a frame 10 Uair that wasn't particularly powerful. Ganondorf anyone? Frame 6 murder Uair. It also kept its body hitbox, the sour-spot hitbox. So, a bit slow and it still kept a body hitbox while also being weaker, mostly in damage. In Smash 4, it was ported over before being changed in 1.0.8 that tried to emulate what Captain Falcon, Mario, and ZSS do with their Uairs, but on a character who has much lower air speed and lower ground speed, never really comboed like that in any of the games, and has a move that doesn't seem to fit that style because of how it hits and its original intent as a "strong hit" juggle. Imagine if Ike's Fair was made to resemble Lucina's, but kept its relatively high startup... It wouldn't really work and you'd kill the power on Ike's Fair. You'd also potentially overlap Ike's Fair with Nair.

Anyway, I feel like the changes to Uair was more of a nerf than a buff and more of an alteration of gameplay than an improvement of it. If there is a future patch, I would definitely want Uair to have its old knockback values and angles, except for its sour-spot of course. Damage is fine, especially if you want to justify it being frame 7 now. What Uair really needed was a consistent hitbox. Going above that is making it faster which happened. Anything else better could break it like let's make it do 13% now, let's lower the landing lag to be 10, or make Falco's legs invincible during it. Anything else to change would change how it has to be used which happened. It's not a bad thing if done right like changing Marth's jab 1 which not only changed it, but improved it versus changing Falco's Uair which just changed it and forces Falco to use it like how another character would use their juggle Uair except his wasn't made to be like theirs and isn't completely tuned to be like theirs. Also, it's not a bad thing if it's just aesthetic changes or the move just gets overhauled, but still fits or works with Falco like, "Hey, let's make Falco's Uair a Genocide Cutter / Sonic Scythe just because it looks cool."

For Nair, it's also a bit weird when you connect it with Fair. Right now, they overlap which is also a problem I feel like Pikachu has with Fair and Bair and even Nair which would only be there because all 3 of those moves are central hitting for Pikachu meaning Pikachu doesn't really have horizontal range for aerials. This is a problem for Falco as well, but it's not a major deal breaker if Falco was able to zone, so he wouldn't have always have to approach and try for jump-ins when his aerials aren't tuned for that. Anyway, Nair and Fair are both multi-hits with high active frames allowing them to edgeguard and trap people -- they're good air-to-air aerials --, they both have auto-link angles allowing them to "drag" or force Falco's opponent's to follow his momentum, they both are used mostly as combo extenders or finishers needing to be setup by another move like Utilt, Dtilt, Uair, U-throw, or even themselves which is more of Nair's thing, and none of them are KO moves outside for edgeguards. The only things that makes them different is that Nair is faster, has lower landing lag, has an irregular rhythm -- each hit doesn't smoothly loop into each other like other multi-hits --, KO's about 20%-ish later, and always sends Falco's opponents where he's facing while Fair is slower, has higher landing lag, has refreshing loop hitboxes, is slightly disjointed, and has a heavily disjointed landing hit that I feel is unfair because of the landing animation and the size of the disjoint. In practice, those differences don't matter as much as they're similar moves. You use them for similar purposes, but get slightly different results in contrast to Samus using her Uair to simply juggle and setup helped with its fast startup and low landing lag while her Fair is used from setups, to extend combos, and sometimes KO'ing since it's not really fast and has higher landing lag.

In Brawl, it was just that Nair was better than Fair in every way because Fair was just terrible. The bigger problem was that Falco had 2 multi-hit aerials that for whatever reason weren't connecting. Whether they were designed that way which seems like Nair might have been as a throwback to Melee Falco and Melee Fox's Fair -- Brawl Fox's Fair was freaking stupid as it was changed to connect well, but kept its Melee damage allowing Fox to do 23% with Fair -- or because it was just poorly tuned which was Fair's problem; multi-hits need to be somewhat fast with its loop hits and Falco's had 7 frame gaps between hits not the usual 5 and below frame gaps, they also need set knockback which it didn't have for some inexplicable reason, and then there's the fact it had 33 landing frames despite being a fairly weak move in comparison to others like... Brawl Fox's Fair or Bowser and the Links's Dairs. Smash 4 fixed that with Fair connecting making it pretty much a "Samus Fair". Unfortunately in Smash 4, Falco's Nair which was a "Melee Falco (L-canceled) Fair" or "Samus Uair" ended up having 15 landing frames up from its 9 in Brawl. Yes, Falco could setup with his Nair like landing Nair to Utilt, but that's not really strong. Landing Nair to Up Smash would be strong now, but before 1.1.4? It wouldn't be. It'd be the weaker version of Fox's Nair to Up Smash. Now? A bit closer, but you have to make sure Nair actually connects and doesn't hit a shield or the opponent is in the air, falls out of Nair, and escapes. Anyway, Falco's Nair at the start of Smash 4 was torn between being a "Samus Uair" which it was in Brawl and a "Zelda Nair". The developers chose "Zelda Nair" (while also not compensating Zelda outside of slightly lower landing lag at 19 frames from its 22 until 1.1.5 where it was made noticeably stronger than Falco's). Not necessarily a bad thing, but it caused Nair to overlap with Fair. Overlaps aren't a bad thing, but having more varied options would be nice. If there was a patch, I'd would like to see Brawl Nair just to see what would happen. Now, if it were up to me and moves could be overhauled, I'd keep Nair because no other character has a multi-hit with an irregular rhythm and have Fair be overhauled as another move since Pikachu and Sonic already have head drill Fairs. That doesn't mean Nair is still Nair; it could be Fair while Nair becomes something like a re-tuned and maybe reanimated Melee / Brawl Bair, a split kick, or Nair is still Nair maybe even as Brawl Nair while Fair becomes something with more horizontal reach.
 
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I feel like you're confusing approach with movement... Falco's movement is flexible and good despite him being slow horizontally. It's why he can be deceptively agile. For approaches, I do agree with one thing: it's fine. Falco doesn't need to have a good approach; Guile doesn't need to have a good approach. It's not really "them"; they're zoners not rushdowns and/or in your face pressure characters like Fox and Wolf or Ken and Nash. Falco with a good approach is pretty scary... Melee and Brawl anyone? He really shouldn't be approaching with a projectile, especially one with pretty good range or insane range in Melee and Brawl. If he did, he'd need Luigi's Fireball or Mega Man's pellet short range which would kill the zoning part Falco should be doing.
Not really. What I'm saying is that Falco can utilize his initial dash as an approaching tool. If you buffer down during Falco's initial dash, he can almost immediately use his down tilt as soon as his initial dash animation ends. This is something I've been doing in a lot of my matches with Falco and its helped me tremendously in the neutral. Foxtrotting in the neutral also helps Falco get a ton of grabs, which is obviously really helpful as well.
 
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Hey, so I was looking for something unrelated with Falco's Up B when I noticed traveling along the ground has decently low endlag. The final hit has just enough knockback to push targets into a tumble launch at a low angle, and an immediate blaster hits them as they land for a lock. Works from 0% to high %, though you'd eventually run out of stage at higher percents for them to land on. But the single blaster lock gives you enough time for a running Usmash or dash grab or whatever is preferred. Has anybody tried this? I know up B as an attack isn't appetizing but it looks flashy.
 

Snipnigth

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User was warned for this post; double post
i read this a whild back and im just wondering if anyone has found a way to do it concistantly, cuz it seems verry usefull, when you fill hop dair, there is a timing where you throw it out and falco lands laglessly just like clouds dair, with his hitbox out, but sometiems insted of hitting with the souerspot it hits with the sweetspot, ben able to combo into another aerial like a bair, noe ive somewhat figured out the timing so he lands lagglessly with the lingering hitbox but i still havent figured out why he hits the sweet sport sometimes, this could be verry usefull even if we dont get the sweetspot hit all the time.

Hey, so I was looking for something unrelated with Falco's Up B when I noticed traveling along the ground has decently low endlag. The final hit has just enough knockback to push targets into a tumble launch at a low angle, and an immediate blaster hits them as they land for a lock. Works from 0% to high %, though you'd eventually run out of stage at higher percents for them to land on. But the single blaster lock gives you enough time for a running Usmash or dash grab or whatever is preferred. Has anybody tried this? I know up B as an attack isn't appetizing but it looks flashy.
I havent tried to jablock with it, i guess its good to know, i have used it as a mindgame, i mean it kinda freezez your opponent when you suddently do a up b and they are expecting a dash atack, but its not a good idea to throw it, they can punish it really easy
 
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Ffamran

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i read this a whild back and im just wondering if anyone has found a way to do it concistantly, cuz it seems verry usefull, when you fill hop dair, there is a timing where you throw it out and falco lands laglessly just like clouds dair, with his hitbox out, but sometiems insted of hitting with the souerspot it hits with the sweetspot, ben able to combo into another aerial like a bair, noe ive somewhat figured out the timing so he lands lagglessly with the lingering hitbox but i still havent figured out why he hits the sweet sport sometimes, this could be verry usefull even if we dont get the sweetspot hit all the time.
I remember @A2ZOMG talking about this a while back... He said something about using Dair's late hit from Falco's jump or something. Easiest way I can think doing a Dair and landing without landing lag is to do a rising Dair. Might be possible from a hop, but I don't think so since Falco's hop airtime is only 32 frames and I think that accounts for him rising and falling. Dair auto-cancels before frame 4 and after frame 37. Falco's jump airtime is 62 frames.
 

Snipnigth

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Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic
I remember @A2ZOMG talking about this a while back... He said something about using Dair's late hit from Falco's jump or something. Easiest way I can think doing a Dair and landing without landing lag is to do a rising Dair. Might be possible from a hop, but I don't think so since Falco's hop airtime is only 32 frames and I think that accounts for him rising and falling. Dair auto-cancels before frame 4 and after frame 37. Falco's jump airtime is 62 frames.
I have been testing this it work, but its really unsafe, gives your opponent plenty of time to react to it with upsmash or something, and it dosent lead to anything, it will sometimes combo with bair, but you have to be super fast on your dash and rar bair when you land....i found that using bairs late hitbox on a short hop is much safer and useful, this works by throwing out your bair in frame 16 of your SH, if done right Falco Bair late hitbox will stay out for the rest of his SH and will autocancel when landing in the ground, this can allow safe pressure on shield like bair on shield then ftilt or turn around and grab its possible, and it can stop dashes on their tracks if they dash into it, its a cool tool to have but it dosent lead to any big combos.
 

Ffamran

The Armed Hunter for Hire
Moderator
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Aug 25, 2014
Messages
14,136
I have been testing this it work, but its really unsafe, gives your opponent plenty of time to react to it with upsmash or something, and it dosent lead to anything, it will sometimes combo with bair, but you have to be super fast on your dash and rar bair when you land....i found that using bairs late hitbox on a short hop is much safer and useful, this works by throwing out your bair in frame 16 of your SH, if done right Falco Bair late hitbox will stay out for the rest of his SH and will autocancel when landing in the ground, this can allow safe pressure on shield like bair on shield then ftilt or turn around and grab its possible, and it can stop dashes on their tracks if they dash into it, its a cool tool to have but it dosent lead to any big combos.
Just checking on stuff... Ironically, about 1 day before you posted, Oji, a Japanese Falco player, posted some stuff about late Dair.

Edit: Late Dair being used makes me think of Dhalsim's Drill Kick. In this case, Falco's forced to use it from a jump, use it high making Falco descend a bit slower than he'd want to which is similar to Dhalsim being floaty and also, because in Street Fighter where you can't hop. Late Dair can work, but it's going to be very telegraphed.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Here's another one: https://twitter.com/finaloji/status/762558692860592128.

Unrelated: A lot of people might not like Dair no longer being a spike, especially not being buffed to be its pretty broken Brawl and blatantly broken Melee Dair, but I would rather take a frame 10-ish Dair that either popped his opponents up which it already does on grounded opponents or maybe even a more horizontal angle -- not 361 degrees, but perhaps something like 60 to 30 degrees --, definitely Melee's 18 landing frames, and possibly allow it to auto-cancel from a hop, but with a strict timing.

Also, a Falco Phantasm that no longer spikes airborne opponents, but sends them flying behind him -- hit angles over 90 and above 180 degrees -- would definitely allow it to have a full hitbox -- you have to figure that even with its halved hitbox, it's still the largest spike a character can naturally us in series --, but I'd rather take much shorter distance for lower recovery to give Falco a pseudo-command dash.
 
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Ralugi

Smash Apprentice
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Mar 24, 2016
Messages
159
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Uranium238
Does anyone know how to pull off RAR bairs. I've can't seem to consistently pull it off. It always either ends up being a normal bair or a RAR fair
 
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