GodAtHand
Smash Lord
Every time I try to SH bair I just jump in the direction I am trying to kick... I think I am trying to do this too fast lol.
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~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~
- Thread starter Kataefi
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#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
lol, that tends to happen.
it is definitely a pain in the a** to get the timing down for this but the reward is too good. Just keep working on it and you'll get it.
it is definitely a pain in the a** to get the timing down for this but the reward is too good. Just keep working on it and you'll get it.
By all means get this combo learnt.
BUT - I need to do more testing. I think we only get an advantage on a specific percentage on each character and whether Dtilt is fresh or not.
Regardless, the fact is - getting them in the lock will force them to SDI left to escape. They will be preoccupied with this. They will not see the Bair coming at all. Those that do must hide in their shield, so if you notice they're not SDIing then you can go for a grab instead to mix it up.
BUT - I need to do more testing. I think we only get an advantage on a specific percentage on each character and whether Dtilt is fresh or not.
Regardless, the fact is - getting them in the lock will force them to SDI left to escape. They will be preoccupied with this. They will not see the Bair coming at all. Those that do must hide in their shield, so if you notice they're not SDIing then you can go for a grab instead to mix it up.
I haven't had a chance to verify my hypothesis about the mechanics behind dizzy, but assuming I'm right I can answer some of these questions.
Pit: 33
Meta Knight: 34
Fox: 36
Jigglypuff: 32
Sheik: 35
A higher number means the character enjoys less stun. For those who don't know, inverse porpotionality means that the product of the character's specific hitstun constant and the number of frames of stun is a constant. Or, symbolically,
s2 = h1 * s1 / h2
where s2 is the number of frames of stun for the second character, h1 is the first character's specific hitstun, s1 is the number of frames of stun for the first character, and h2 is the second character's specific hitstun. (This is for a constant launch force of course.)
The variation among the cast isn't very large in any case (for a constant launch force).
Stale moves affect the force you're beind hit into the ground with, and the number of frames of stun would thus decrease proportionally.Kataefi said:
The number of frames of stun would be inversely proportional to the character's specific hitstun constant. I don't know all of these yet, but here's a sample of specific hit constants:Successor of Raphael said:
Pit: 33
Meta Knight: 34
Fox: 36
Jigglypuff: 32
Sheik: 35
A higher number means the character enjoys less stun. For those who don't know, inverse porpotionality means that the product of the character's specific hitstun constant and the number of frames of stun is a constant. Or, symbolically,
s2 = h1 * s1 / h2
where s2 is the number of frames of stun for the second character, h1 is the first character's specific hitstun, s1 is the number of frames of stun for the first character, and h2 is the second character's specific hitstun. (This is for a constant launch force of course.)
The variation among the cast isn't very large in any case (for a constant launch force).
The decay in stun time is only because of the decay in the force hitting you into the ground, so they are proportional which means that if the move is stale, you just need to do this combo at a higher damage (as opposed to being impossible at all damages, which might be the case if the stun decayed faster than the launch force). In a real match you probably won't be able to consult some chart because the relationships are pretty complex, so you'll probably just have to go for it.Kataefi said:
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
I always find this equation type things absolutely hilarious.
Just a question here:
When an opponent is in the air and you d-tilt them (so they hit or land on the upper thigh) and they go crashing into the ground, do you still have the same circumstances to be able to f-air or b-air them? If so it would be a guaranteed KO setup at higher percentages.
No because they can airdodge immediately after =( But this is just from experience so Dtilt could have been staled, possibly decreasing the hitstun.
If they go for the airdodge can she not buffer a turn around and wait for their invincibility frames to finish, and then SH Bair?
Then again they might be able to attack. But when they pop up a lot of players tend to slam shield in hope they'd airdodge immediately. This doesn't work; the airdodge has to be timed for them to do this immediately.
If they go for the airdodge can she not buffer a turn around and wait for their invincibility frames to finish, and then SH Bair?
Then again they might be able to attack. But when they pop up a lot of players tend to slam shield in hope they'd airdodge immediately. This doesn't work; the airdodge has to be timed for them to do this immediately.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
Is anyone planning on translating everything that was in this thread? I need everything dumbed-down at least 80% in order for me to grasp what might be going on here...
My minds all jumbled at the minute
Her dtilt knocks her enemy into the ground at early/middle percents, which makes them either trip or go dizzy. Some characters who trip, notably Bowser and DK can be hit by sweetspot immediately after.
If they don't trip and go into Dizzy animation, there is a certain percent where she might get a frame advantage to sweetspot them. This basically means she might be able to sweetspot them before they can even recover from their hitstun from the Dtilt. This is what we're testing at the moment.
Thing is... this combo could still be legit even without the frame advantage and I'll explain why:
The Dtilt lock keeps them in place unless they SDI. They cannot shield this.
The buffered SH Bair might be shielded. But this would mean they cannot SDI the dtilt lock if they are simply hitting shield, anticipating the sweetspot.
I believe we can capitalise on both situations here. If they SDI, I believe they won't be able to put up their shield in time for SH bair (or SH Fair as its easier) because they would be preoccupied. We can capitalise here with the sweetspot, which is guaranteed if they don't shield (which they can't as they'll be DIing) and if their dizzy animation is stood up rather than tripping down.
If they are anticipating the sweetspot, and decide to hold shield, she can simply Dtilt all day and keep them in the lock until they SDI or start popping up.
Basically, I believe you need to look out for them SDIing the lock and then go for the sweetspot. I need to know if SDIing affects the stun rate at all, or whether they can shield AND SDI at the same time, which would cause Zelda some problems without the frame advantage.
EDIT:::: ALso, the dtilt lock works if their shield is down somewhat. If it is, they cannot shield the next dtilt coming, so I ask -- what if she sweetspots at this point without the frame advantage but hits their shield, would this break their shield or make it close to breaking? If this is a legit way to break their shield, then... free move basically ^^
Her dtilt knocks her enemy into the ground at early/middle percents, which makes them either trip or go dizzy. Some characters who trip, notably Bowser and DK can be hit by sweetspot immediately after.
If they don't trip and go into Dizzy animation, there is a certain percent where she might get a frame advantage to sweetspot them. This basically means she might be able to sweetspot them before they can even recover from their hitstun from the Dtilt. This is what we're testing at the moment.
Thing is... this combo could still be legit even without the frame advantage and I'll explain why:
The Dtilt lock keeps them in place unless they SDI. They cannot shield this.
The buffered SH Bair might be shielded. But this would mean they cannot SDI the dtilt lock if they are simply hitting shield, anticipating the sweetspot.
I believe we can capitalise on both situations here. If they SDI, I believe they won't be able to put up their shield in time for SH bair (or SH Fair as its easier) because they would be preoccupied. We can capitalise here with the sweetspot, which is guaranteed if they don't shield (which they can't as they'll be DIing) and if their dizzy animation is stood up rather than tripping down.
If they are anticipating the sweetspot, and decide to hold shield, she can simply Dtilt all day and keep them in the lock until they SDI or start popping up.
Basically, I believe you need to look out for them SDIing the lock and then go for the sweetspot. I need to know if SDIing affects the stun rate at all, or whether they can shield AND SDI at the same time, which would cause Zelda some problems without the frame advantage.
EDIT:::: ALso, the dtilt lock works if their shield is down somewhat. If it is, they cannot shield the next dtilt coming, so I ask -- what if she sweetspots at this point without the frame advantage but hits their shield, would this break their shield or make it close to breaking? If this is a legit way to break their shield, then... free move basically ^^
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
It seems we're stilling coming to some conclusion as to the full extent on d-tilts uses. Once everything is wrapped up I'll make a summary in the Zelda guide. It needs some attention.
Kat, I don't mind doing this myself, but you obviously know more about all of this than me, so if you want to write a short summary or something, for your own good as well as mine, I can feature your summary in the guide it some piccies.
Kat, I don't mind doing this myself, but you obviously know more about all of this than me, so if you want to write a short summary or something, for your own good as well as mine, I can feature your summary in the guide it some piccies.
Villi
Smash Lord
You can SDI and hold the shield button at the same time. Zelda's attacks seem to cause a bit of shield damage. I'd be interested to know if she could potentially have a shield breaker combo...
I'm gonna look to see if she can break their shield actually.
Dtilt lock can also work when her enemy's shield is already run down, so perhaps the f/bair will break their shield completely. Need to test, need to test ^^
How quick does a shield recover? And can it recover during the dtilt lock, or if they're attacked in general?
Dtilt lock can also work when her enemy's shield is already run down, so perhaps the f/bair will break their shield completely. Need to test, need to test ^^
How quick does a shield recover? And can it recover during the dtilt lock, or if they're attacked in general?
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
It could be close, I never though about breaking a shield when I first thought of the Dtilt hitstun -> Bair. That might work if the shield is already kind of beat up a little bit.
Also, great observation on the SDI and shield part. It appears this is going from once thought surprise attack to huge combo ability.
I'll test this some more before I get to sleep tonight.
Also, great observation on the SDI and shield part. It appears this is going from once thought surprise attack to huge combo ability.
I'll test this some more before I get to sleep tonight.
I'm thinking that dtilt might start becoming as crucial to Zeldas game as ftilt is to Sheiks game.
Honestly we probably should have been using it more from the start, it has insane priority and a lot of us Zelda users tend to fall in love with the cstick.
This new development all of a sudden makes usmash fresh most of the time and will make it a lethal KO move.
Honestly we probably should have been using it more from the start, it has insane priority and a lot of us Zelda users tend to fall in love with the cstick.
This new development all of a sudden makes usmash fresh most of the time and will make it a lethal KO move.
-dMT-
Smash Lord
wow this thread has taken upon a new level... nice.. always a pleasure to see all this work on improving the metagame...
Also Kat, if theres any vids u want me to upload just send them over to my wii, i'll record and upload any vids i get from you.
I'm also gonna test this stuff out and see what I can add to this.
Also Kat, if theres any vids u want me to upload just send them over to my wii, i'll record and upload any vids i get from you.
I'm also gonna test this stuff out and see what I can add to this.
I still havn't figure out the right percent this could work on without them being to do something. I can't really continue this until I get Zelda's in depth frame data.
But with Marth, at ANY time, should he not throw his shield up immediately, he'll get sweetspotted by fair or bair, so learn it regardless!
Kills him EARLY!
But with Marth, at ANY time, should he not throw his shield up immediately, he'll get sweetspotted by fair or bair, so learn it regardless!
Kills him EARLY!
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
Yea, I'm just like you waiting on the frame data Kat. Once we get this, I think this'll take off to even bigger heights.
-dMT-
Smash Lord
I've been asking for the frame data on Zelda for a long time...
How does one go about collecting such data?
How does one go about collecting such data?
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
I would imagine it would be by recording all her moves hitting an opponent (Possibly in different positions) with a decent capture card then watching the video footage on your PC frame by frame.
Erm... did it occur to anyone that her Dair has sizeable hitstun post 90%?
In fact, it actually takes over Dtilt's roll. At percents where Dtilt will pop the character up in the air, Dair will take over as the move that makes them trip or go into dizzy animation, and its hitstun seems to be more also. I tested it vaguely, and they can't seem to put up their shield as early as I thought they would - must be something to do with its knockback force maybe on a grounded opponent?
SH Dair autocancels into anything. If the frame advantage from the stun is big enough, she gets a free anything except maybe something +16 frames. Could be a great setup for the kill.
I've got hotgarbage to test it out for me... but Dair > Sweetspot at around 80-100% could definitely be viable as a true combo. Yet another possibility for Zelda, and it would make Dair OoS very effective.
In fact, it actually takes over Dtilt's roll. At percents where Dtilt will pop the character up in the air, Dair will take over as the move that makes them trip or go into dizzy animation, and its hitstun seems to be more also. I tested it vaguely, and they can't seem to put up their shield as early as I thought they would - must be something to do with its knockback force maybe on a grounded opponent?
SH Dair autocancels into anything. If the frame advantage from the stun is big enough, she gets a free anything except maybe something +16 frames. Could be a great setup for the kill.
I've got hotgarbage to test it out for me... but Dair > Sweetspot at around 80-100% could definitely be viable as a true combo. Yet another possibility for Zelda, and it would make Dair OoS very effective.
Bandit
Smash Lord
I had been using this against JCaes (Dair while he is on the ground), and he kept asking why I tried it when it wouldn't bounce him like other spikes. When I explained (or rather showed) that Dair trips him when sweetspots, he realized why I threw it out there. Also, it is a quick aerial with good priority.
My "combos" had been soft-spotting and sweet-spotting the dair in the air and hitting a bair/fair on them after the hit. Soft-spotting them in the air while you ff dair has led to sweetspotted LK's for me, though I can't tell you whether they are true combos or if I am just catching people off-guard.
The sweet-spotted dair "combo" is totally dependent on how close you and your opponent are to the ground when you connect. It works best with a platform from what I have performed. There is an example of this in my battle against JCaes on Castle Siege in the video thread. He would tech my dair, and I would punish him with a LK. It was harder to land when he didn't tech, but it is still possible.
Just thought I would throw those thoughts out there. Again, these are probably not true combos, but they are great follow up moves that I have landed more often than not.
My "combos" had been soft-spotting and sweet-spotting the dair in the air and hitting a bair/fair on them after the hit. Soft-spotting them in the air while you ff dair has led to sweetspotted LK's for me, though I can't tell you whether they are true combos or if I am just catching people off-guard.
The sweet-spotted dair "combo" is totally dependent on how close you and your opponent are to the ground when you connect. It works best with a platform from what I have performed. There is an example of this in my battle against JCaes on Castle Siege in the video thread. He would tech my dair, and I would punish him with a LK. It was harder to land when he didn't tech, but it is still possible.
Just thought I would throw those thoughts out there. Again, these are probably not true combos, but they are great follow up moves that I have landed more often than not.
Villi
Smash Lord
You know, I do wonder if a dair -> lightning kick would be a viable combo at high percents when it knocks people into the air.
If anyone is interested in testing dtilt frame advantage on hit... Go into vs. mode, set 2nd player's handicap to 40/50/60 depending on weight and make Fox 3rd player. Decay Fox's neutral B so that it only does 1%. Then dtilt 2nd player and put both your shields up. Just count how many frames there are between your shield animations and you have your frame advantage. When you're done with one percent, laser 2nd player until it's at the next percent you want to test. If they trip, you'll have to try again with new stocks because of decay. It might be worthwhile to test the frame advantage from the second, third, etc. dtilt during an ftilt lock using the same method. But that could be tedious due to tripping. I don't have the means to do this myself, now. Any questions, just ask.
If anyone is interested in testing dtilt frame advantage on hit... Go into vs. mode, set 2nd player's handicap to 40/50/60 depending on weight and make Fox 3rd player. Decay Fox's neutral B so that it only does 1%. Then dtilt 2nd player and put both your shields up. Just count how many frames there are between your shield animations and you have your frame advantage. When you're done with one percent, laser 2nd player until it's at the next percent you want to test. If they trip, you'll have to try again with new stocks because of decay. It might be worthwhile to test the frame advantage from the second, third, etc. dtilt during an ftilt lock using the same method. But that could be tedious due to tripping. I don't have the means to do this myself, now. Any questions, just ask.
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
I've done SH spikes to FF lightning kicks many times. It works particularly well on Snake and the fat characters.
I haven't tried sour d-air to LK though. Kat, when you're on msg me and we'll do some testing.
I haven't tried sour d-air to LK though. Kat, when you're on msg me and we'll do some testing.
Thankyou to hotgarbage for all this amazing frame data:
Zelda's Dtilt:
duration: 24
hits on: 5
trip adv: +19 (on 20 your opponent can perform one of their "tech options")
Dtilt hit advantage on Pit:
10%: -4
20%: -2
30%: +1
40%: +3
50%: + 6
60%: + 8
70%: +10
80%: pops Pit up.
Keep in mind that that those advantages don't apply to every character in the game, but it's the general idea. For instance, MK suffers 1 more frame of hitstun when compared to Pit, Jiggly 2 more, Dedede 1 less, and Bowser 2 less.
What this means: <-- interpreted by me
40% + 3
NO TRUE COMBOS
Dtilt > DSmash (opponent can shield or needs a frame 1 attack to intercept)
Dtilt > Dtilt (opponent can shield or needs a frame 2 attack to intercept)
50% + 6
TRUE COMBOS
Dtilt > DSmash
Dtilt > Dtilt > Dtilt … LOCK
Dtilt > Dash Attack
Dtilt > USmash
60% + 8
TRUE COMBOS
Dtilt > DSmash
Dtilt > Dtilt > Dtilt … LOCK
Dtilt > Dash Attack
Dtilt > USmash
70% + 10 *
TRUE COMBOS
Dtilt > DSmash
Dtilt > Dtilt > Dtilt … LOCK
Dtilt > Dash Attack
Dtilt > USmash
Dtilt > Utilt (works on heavies or characters with wide hurtboxes)
* At 70%, you can jab, ftilt and grab, and the opponent only has 2 frames to retaliate. Therefore, if the character has a frame 2 attack, you can trade with them, OR you might as well grab them. I think if two attacks collide and one happens to be a grab, then does the grab still work but Zelda takes damage? Because if that's the case then she can always grab around this mark.
She cannot truly combo into a lightning kick via Fair at 70%, as the opponent has 3 frames to shield, though if she's frame perfect she'll be able to buffer a SH Bair which is exactly 10 frames (according to Villi), but this is nigh on impossible to achieve for any player because it would require absolute perfection. Still, by all means, they have a tiny window to react, so the buffered Bair is still viable.
I recommend to begin every offence with dtilt at 40+%. And I seriously mean every attack should be buffered from a dtilt, as you can rack up a great amount of damage. I'm gonna try and make this a staple of my gameplay.
Zelda's Dtilt:
duration: 24
hits on: 5
trip adv: +19 (on 20 your opponent can perform one of their "tech options")
Dtilt hit advantage on Pit:
10%: -4
20%: -2
30%: +1
40%: +3
50%: + 6
60%: + 8
70%: +10
80%: pops Pit up.
Keep in mind that that those advantages don't apply to every character in the game, but it's the general idea. For instance, MK suffers 1 more frame of hitstun when compared to Pit, Jiggly 2 more, Dedede 1 less, and Bowser 2 less.
What this means: <-- interpreted by me
40% + 3
NO TRUE COMBOS
Dtilt > DSmash (opponent can shield or needs a frame 1 attack to intercept)
Dtilt > Dtilt (opponent can shield or needs a frame 2 attack to intercept)
50% + 6
TRUE COMBOS
Dtilt > DSmash
Dtilt > Dtilt > Dtilt … LOCK
Dtilt > Dash Attack
Dtilt > USmash
60% + 8
TRUE COMBOS
Dtilt > DSmash
Dtilt > Dtilt > Dtilt … LOCK
Dtilt > Dash Attack
Dtilt > USmash
70% + 10 *
TRUE COMBOS
Dtilt > DSmash
Dtilt > Dtilt > Dtilt … LOCK
Dtilt > Dash Attack
Dtilt > USmash
Dtilt > Utilt (works on heavies or characters with wide hurtboxes)
* At 70%, you can jab, ftilt and grab, and the opponent only has 2 frames to retaliate. Therefore, if the character has a frame 2 attack, you can trade with them, OR you might as well grab them. I think if two attacks collide and one happens to be a grab, then does the grab still work but Zelda takes damage? Because if that's the case then she can always grab around this mark.
She cannot truly combo into a lightning kick via Fair at 70%, as the opponent has 3 frames to shield, though if she's frame perfect she'll be able to buffer a SH Bair which is exactly 10 frames (according to Villi), but this is nigh on impossible to achieve for any player because it would require absolute perfection. Still, by all means, they have a tiny window to react, so the buffered Bair is still viable.
I recommend to begin every offence with dtilt at 40+%. And I seriously mean every attack should be buffered from a dtilt, as you can rack up a great amount of damage. I'm gonna try and make this a staple of my gameplay.
Villi
Smash Lord
I haven't tested the turnaround animation very thoroughly, but it's either 0 frames or 1 frame. I'm pretty sure I've been able to get 0-frame turn-arounds, but I need moar trials. I do know that you can avoid the entire crouching animation (4? frames) by buffering with the c-stick.
I was practicing the turnaround bair the other day on Marth and Luigi's Mansion pillars to get the hitlag in my muscle memory. ****it if Marth didn't trip a bunch of times. How annoying. The buffering can definitely be accomplished with practice.
I was practicing the turnaround bair the other day on Marth and Luigi's Mansion pillars to get the hitlag in my muscle memory. ****it if Marth didn't trip a bunch of times. How annoying. The buffering can definitely be accomplished with practice.
Also... there are times when Dtilt mysteriously hits behind her... has this happened to anyone? I suppose if we space in such a way as to hit with this 'behind' hitbox, then we won't need to even buffer a turnaround bair at all.
Villi
Smash Lord
You can buffer a turn around dtilt with 0-lag out of a front-facing dtilt. lol
Bandit
Smash Lord
Does anyone know if Jab can be useful for combos?
hahaha! Thanks Red Bandit!
Anyways... so I've been experimenting with Zelda's jab alot recently and it has a lot of hitstun when you connect all three 3 hits.
I believe when all 3 hits connect - you can truly combo into something such as a dash attack without them having to shield. I've tested it out, and so far I've always managed to dash attack them in range before they put up their shield. I believe this can even work up to 60%... before jab starts to push them away too far for dash attack to reach.
It's also interesting to note that all 3 hits of the jab around 100% and above force the opponent on the floor and they'll have to roll or get up in order recover, which places Zelda in an advantageous position.
I was thinking, if we can develop this... we can abuse the stun from both jab and dtilt to mix up her combos. For example, jabbing at lower percents and dtilting at higher percents and switching from one to the other on the fly as both are very different moves and apply different pressure to the enemy.
I'm going to mail hotgarbage to see if he can get the frame details involved in her frame advantage.
So far:
Very early combos from jab include (<30% though not tested yet):
jab > dash attack
jab > Ftilt
jab > hyphen usmash
jab > dtilt
jab > dtilt trip > whatever
jab > dsmash
Other combos (up to 60% though not properly tested):
jab > dash attack
* dash grab takes too long and can be intercepted I believe.
I just want people who play a lot in friendlies or whatever to give some of these a go and see if it all goes right.
Anyways... so I've been experimenting with Zelda's jab alot recently and it has a lot of hitstun when you connect all three 3 hits.
I believe when all 3 hits connect - you can truly combo into something such as a dash attack without them having to shield. I've tested it out, and so far I've always managed to dash attack them in range before they put up their shield. I believe this can even work up to 60%... before jab starts to push them away too far for dash attack to reach.
It's also interesting to note that all 3 hits of the jab around 100% and above force the opponent on the floor and they'll have to roll or get up in order recover, which places Zelda in an advantageous position.
I was thinking, if we can develop this... we can abuse the stun from both jab and dtilt to mix up her combos. For example, jabbing at lower percents and dtilting at higher percents and switching from one to the other on the fly as both are very different moves and apply different pressure to the enemy.
I'm going to mail hotgarbage to see if he can get the frame details involved in her frame advantage.
So far:
Very early combos from jab include (<30% though not tested yet):
jab > dash attack
jab > Ftilt
jab > hyphen usmash
jab > dtilt
jab > dtilt trip > whatever
jab > dsmash
Other combos (up to 60% though not properly tested):
jab > dash attack
* dash grab takes too long and can be intercepted I believe.
I just want people who play a lot in friendlies or whatever to give some of these a go and see if it all goes right.
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
If you can time it right, jab to dash attack always works.
At low percents, jab >> f-tilt works well.
If you're near the edge, jab seems to have a downward trajectory, so you can knock someone off the stage and follow it with a spike.
As for f-tilt and dash attack, use your own judgement to follow up. lightning kicks, n-air, u-tilt, u-air, u-smash etc... can all follow up depending on the situation.
Hm, it seems Kat got there before me.
At low percents, jab >> f-tilt works well.
If you're near the edge, jab seems to have a downward trajectory, so you can knock someone off the stage and follow it with a spike.
As for f-tilt and dash attack, use your own judgement to follow up. lightning kicks, n-air, u-tilt, u-air, u-smash etc... can all follow up depending on the situation.
Hm, it seems Kat got there before me.
What I find interesting is what jab does after 100% (around this percent anyways). It forces them to hit the floor... they have to roll or get back up.
I don't know if this stun can be jumped out of though, but I was thinking this kind of jab + a din's can punish them rolling or getting up everytime no matter what they do - unless they are smart and wait for the din's to arrive and get up during the explosion in which they can abuse the invincibility - but still, the fact they're in this position puts Zelda in control.
EDIT:: I believe the more we discover about how to abuse all this potential stun from her jab, dtilt and dair, the less reliant we have to be with smashes to rack up damage. She can refresh easily and start killing.
I don't know if this stun can be jumped out of though, but I was thinking this kind of jab + a din's can punish them rolling or getting up everytime no matter what they do - unless they are smart and wait for the din's to arrive and get up during the explosion in which they can abuse the invincibility - but still, the fact they're in this position puts Zelda in control.
EDIT:: I believe the more we discover about how to abuse all this potential stun from her jab, dtilt and dair, the less reliant we have to be with smashes to rack up damage. She can refresh easily and start killing.
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
imo, zelda can rack up damage VERY fast, possibly faster than Sheik herself.
She's very floaty by nature so you can f/b-air 3 or 4 times in a single jump. Playing aggressive (against most characters) is the key to ******. I'll show you what I mean next time we play, Kat. There is plenty of testing to be done.
She certainly does not rack damage as easily as Sheik.......but she's not as bad as people think.
I still believe in using usmash and fsmash a lot for spacing and stopping approaches, but one thing that has helped tremendously as i've begun to use dtilt and jab a lot more is keeping my dsmash fresh. A fresh dsmash at 100% and above is a scary thing for any character to have to deal with.
Another thing that I think will become more well known in the upcoming months is that Zelda has a bunch of potential strings, for a character that was thought to not have any combos.......she probably has some of the more easier strings in Brawl:
Dtilt>dsmash
dtilt>utilt
ftilt>usmash
usmash>usmash
jab>dash attack
In fact jab and dtilt can lead to almost anything imaginable and her dthrow is actually a decent tech chase. I'm getting more and more excited as all of us continue to disprove the misconception that Zelda is slow and fat lol.
I still believe in using usmash and fsmash a lot for spacing and stopping approaches, but one thing that has helped tremendously as i've begun to use dtilt and jab a lot more is keeping my dsmash fresh. A fresh dsmash at 100% and above is a scary thing for any character to have to deal with.
Another thing that I think will become more well known in the upcoming months is that Zelda has a bunch of potential strings, for a character that was thought to not have any combos.......she probably has some of the more easier strings in Brawl:
Dtilt>dsmash
dtilt>utilt
ftilt>usmash
usmash>usmash
jab>dash attack
In fact jab and dtilt can lead to almost anything imaginable and her dthrow is actually a decent tech chase. I'm getting more and more excited as all of us continue to disprove the misconception that Zelda is slow and fat lol.
Luthien
Smash Ace
Wow, crazy stuff.
As awesome as this dtilt data is, I was wondering if nair has any true combos. Generally if I land in the middle of the attack I can follow-up with a usmash at low percents. Anyone know if this is a true combo or not? Frame data on nair in general would be nice, too.
As awesome as this dtilt data is, I was wondering if nair has any true combos. Generally if I land in the middle of the attack I can follow-up with a usmash at low percents. Anyone know if this is a true combo or not? Frame data on nair in general would be nice, too.
Wow
Saw this thread and absolutely had to start testing myself. Awsome stuff guys. Ive been testing things out at random in training mode, and to my untrained eye it seems that after any full trip animation, the next d-tilt will be either a "dizzy" or if they're low enough a standard flinch. Either way it simplifies knowing when to attempt any out of dizzy combo or LK. Just wait for the trip (which should be obvious) then assume no matter which state they're in next its fair game for something. This should help with things like B-air buffering.
In other news if they go "dizzy" and you pull out a jab, they only have about a second to shield, and not enough time to do much else. This could be an easy grab setup if it catches them off guard or if they were expecting something else. But since I was the only one there I couldn't test it very thoroughly. Even better if they don't shield its a given jab > dash attack opportunity.
It seems like even if they get to the point that they bounce off the ground it's ripe for follow ups. If they do nothing it seems most characters have a certain buffered B-air sweet spot timing. And though the bounce can be DI'd, if they don't actively retreat its mostly in up smash range, even better they most likely can't successfully air dodge an up smash follow up if we keep them guessing every time with jabs, N-airs, and the occasional D-air, even if those two are more dodge-able. (mind games anyone?)
Lastly, I tried and you CAN true combo a B-air out of a d-tilt facing the opposite direction of your opponent. Well on Bowser at least, but hes got to be practically touching you to be able to pull it off. Worth another look though.
Like I said these aren't tested very well, and definitely aren't airtight, but its worth looking into for sure. If any of this is unclear I'll come and clear it up tomorrow when its not so late, and maybe come up with some more clearcut ideas (hopefully more useful too lol). Feel free to poke holes in my theories, I already know they aren't thought out very well. Besides thats the best way to find a plan that truly works.
Saw this thread and absolutely had to start testing myself. Awsome stuff guys. Ive been testing things out at random in training mode, and to my untrained eye it seems that after any full trip animation, the next d-tilt will be either a "dizzy" or if they're low enough a standard flinch. Either way it simplifies knowing when to attempt any out of dizzy combo or LK. Just wait for the trip (which should be obvious) then assume no matter which state they're in next its fair game for something. This should help with things like B-air buffering.
In other news if they go "dizzy" and you pull out a jab, they only have about a second to shield, and not enough time to do much else. This could be an easy grab setup if it catches them off guard or if they were expecting something else. But since I was the only one there I couldn't test it very thoroughly. Even better if they don't shield its a given jab > dash attack opportunity.
It seems like even if they get to the point that they bounce off the ground it's ripe for follow ups. If they do nothing it seems most characters have a certain buffered B-air sweet spot timing. And though the bounce can be DI'd, if they don't actively retreat its mostly in up smash range, even better they most likely can't successfully air dodge an up smash follow up if we keep them guessing every time with jabs, N-airs, and the occasional D-air, even if those two are more dodge-able. (mind games anyone?)
Lastly, I tried and you CAN true combo a B-air out of a d-tilt facing the opposite direction of your opponent. Well on Bowser at least, but hes got to be practically touching you to be able to pull it off. Worth another look though.
Like I said these aren't tested very well, and definitely aren't airtight, but its worth looking into for sure. If any of this is unclear I'll come and clear it up tomorrow when its not so late, and maybe come up with some more clearcut ideas (hopefully more useful too lol). Feel free to poke holes in my theories, I already know they aren't thought out very well. Besides thats the best way to find a plan that truly works.
There's a hitbox behind Zelda when she dtilts. It deals 8% instead of the standard 7%. I've got a save of this. It was very interesting. I don't know how to space this consistently, but her backside needs to practically be in her opponent's body.
Buffered bair from dtilt means you have to be frame perfect or they'll throw out a shield. And we still don't know whether the hitstun is fixed or stale dependant. If it's fixed it benefits her more than if it's not.
I'm going to update this thread and turn into a research thread where anyone can throw in any ideas and people can start testing. We've already got far with her dtilt, but it's not complete yet. I want to explore more of her moves. Mainly dtilt, jab and dair.
Buffered bair from dtilt means you have to be frame perfect or they'll throw out a shield. And we still don't know whether the hitstun is fixed or stale dependant. If it's fixed it benefits her more than if it's not.
I'm going to update this thread and turn into a research thread where anyone can throw in any ideas and people can start testing. We've already got far with her dtilt, but it's not complete yet. I want to explore more of her moves. Mainly dtilt, jab and dair.
SinkingHigher
Smash Lord
Yay for sticky!
U-smash U-smash works on Ike, Ganon, C-falcon, I think the space animals too. With some it can be combos into SH-nair, but I don't know if it's a lock. Usually I go to Din then lightning kick after that. It gets about 80% dmg but won't always kill, though I have done it before.
n-air I believe can be buffered (?) into a SHbair. as long as the last hit doesn't connect. I think odd number hits seem to have more knockback, but maybe that's just me. Nevertheless, the knockback doesn't change from 0 to 999% until the last hit.
Seriously Kat we need to test. Message me when you get online. All these possible theoretics are getting the metagame nowhere fast.
P.S. Great Fairy Fountain? That seems like more of a Link thread.
U-smash U-smash works on Ike, Ganon, C-falcon, I think the space animals too. With some it can be combos into SH-nair, but I don't know if it's a lock. Usually I go to Din then lightning kick after that. It gets about 80% dmg but won't always kill, though I have done it before.
n-air I believe can be buffered (?) into a SHbair. as long as the last hit doesn't connect. I think odd number hits seem to have more knockback, but maybe that's just me. Nevertheless, the knockback doesn't change from 0 to 999% until the last hit.
Seriously Kat we need to test. Message me when you get online. All these possible theoretics are getting the metagame nowhere fast.
P.S. Great Fairy Fountain? That seems like more of a Link thread.
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