EXTENNNDUURRRRRR (samus gen. disc.)

[Fortress | Sveet]

i thought you couldn't sweetspot with ganon or falcon?

 

[edgeluca]

i thought you couldn't sweetspot with ganon or falcon?

You can't cause they suck =D

 

[Tyserification]

i thought you couldn't sweetspot with ganon or falcon?

Darkrain does it -_- But maybe its because he's Darkrain.

You can't cause they suck =D

If only. I friggin hate fighting botha those mofos.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

nah you can't. both ganon and cf stick up above the stage at the lowest height they can grab (and even sometimes when they can't grab lol)

And my spot dodges weren't really habitual. I was trying to spotdodge->punish (samus has a good spotdodge) but i was messing up the timing. I got it right by the third game. I really don't spot dodge often in real matches XD

It was a friendly set, we both did things we might not normally do in a real set. I mostly just wanted to get a critique on my spacing and movement, and hopefully a few tips to improve.

Should all of my fairs be nairs? How should i improve my missile game? how important is bomb jumping or is ssb64 style better more often (thats when you use 1 bomb to get air mobility and DI towards the stage instead of doing another bomb)

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

spotdodging ganon's fair is a nightmareee

 

[Tyserification]

Should all of my fairs be nairs? How should i improve my missile game? how important is bomb jumping or is ssb64 style better more often (thats when you use 1 bomb to get air mobility and DI towards the stage instead of doing another bomb)

- Sometimes Fair is better than Nair, sometimes . . .

- Dunno

- Bomb jump if you get hit super duper far away. Single bombs if youre really really high up. Its usually pretty common knowledge which to use in certain situations.

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

- Spotdodging vs Ganon is almost never a good idea. It doesn't put you in a favorable position vs.... really any of the moves they'll be using.
- I saw you downsmashing when he would stay in shield a lot. He didn't punish you for it enough, but most ganons will jump out and bair you or wd out and grab you, both of which hurt... a lot. One time in particular you wd'd in behind him and dsmashed, when you could have jab canceled.
- Learn to jab cancel on shields, it's amazingly useful. I use the "hold back and down diagonally" method, but crouching between the jabs works too.
- Even if you don't jab cancel, spaced jabs are so good. Jab on the shield, then run away and see what your opponent does. Especially Ganon since he really just jumps or rolls OOS. So you can learn that someone will usually jump immediately oos, and jab -> ftilt to punish. Or that they like shield camping, so you can actually risk a jab -> wait -> grab.
- Good edgeguarding (though many Ganons will tech more often, you've got the right idea with utilts and downangled fsmashes), and good spacing on most of your ftilts.
- Maybe learn to double missile on yoshi's and stadium? Ganon can cut right through them on the stage, but it's fun to learn and do, plus it can help edgeguard him a lot. There are three main versions of it. All of them involve short hop onto the platform -> immediate missile (you land, which instantly cuts out the lag). Then you can either fall through -> missile, wavedash off -> missile, or run off -> missile. All have their uses.
- Learn all the things you can do out of wavelands on platforms. Falling off bair, waveland off -> waveland on the ground -> ground move, double jump -> wl off the top platform, double jump -> fall through the top platform -> nair, etc etc. The possibilities are endless.
- Work on your timing/consistency for wavelands really. If that's the path you want to take with our fair lady, you need to be really accurate and precise with them, or you'll just be a floaty airdodging target. Don't worry about it when you mess up, I do it all the time still.
- Last but not least green is an ugly color.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I've been going back and forth between the green and the purple.

I like green more.



I'll work on all of this, thanks!

I'm not used to having a good spot dodge (marth's is really situational), so when should I be using samus'? what should i be looking to do out of the spot dodge frames?

Whats the best way to cover a tech->high upb when edge guarding? nair works when they are higher, but at lower %s they will just DI and grab the edge. Waveland/uair cancel -> fsmash/utilt?

 

[Pi]

I generally only try to spotdodge grab's since you can UB OoS everything else with a pretty big window for error.
Even grabs you can anticipate and UB OoS to catch them.
Also
Ganon is a ***** to fight. Juss had a session w/ a friend of mine who plays him
Seems we're pretty limited when it comes to platform work vs. ganon
and I'd like to say marth too
But maybe I'm juss not comfortable with platform's enough to know when to and when not to.
I juss hate the *******s fair.

 

[edgeluca]

IHSP? Ihavespacepenis? It's IHSB XD

And I like Samus in mid tier seeing as I hate high/top tiers.

woops lol That's what I meant, epic typo
And samus was high tier... till she got demoted =P

 

[edgeluca]

Darkrain does it -_- But maybe its because he's Darkrain.



If only. I friggin hate fighting botha those mofos.

I don't mind Falcon. I'm with you on Ganon though, he's a ***** to fight

 

[Mars-]

Falcon is somewhat easier because you can nair all his arials. It just sucks when he starts punishing you for it.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

what's uair canceling, and what are the benefits of jab canceling?

 

[Tyserification]

I try to jab cancel to apply some kind of pressure. Im not sure if that's its purpose but that's what I do.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

uair canceling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAUe49pwudg

 

[Pi]

I generally only jab cancel if I'm behind the person
If I'm in front I've been trying to wes jab with some success
(can't find a video of it if anyone wants to help me out)
but it's basically juss jab -> spot dodge -> jab as fast as you can lol

 

[Euclid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsDwz0JaeWI#t=14s

Wes. Hes so pringles.

 

[Pi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsDwz0JaeWI#t=14s

Wes. Hes so pringles.

lol yea
i heard he was comin back to melee too but i haven't seen any vids of any of his matches =\

 

[Euclid]

Im pretty sure the world would explode -_-

 

[Pi]

dood...
i ****in hate clickin on a dumb video in youtube, watching it
then getting my reccomended for you's flooded with more dumb video's like it -.-
and don't pretend like i'm the only one who occasionally get's fooled by a thumbnail or video title >=|

[edit1]
also
i think samus would be pretty good at the bowser challenge

[edit2]
anyone else habitually JC your grabs...?
I need to stop doing this...

[edit3]
what would you guys think about a thread where we post tournament matches of samus's and kinda go through and critique, point out things that worked and things that could be worked on?
not sure if we're all close enough to do that w/o offending each other
i'm talkin like, at 0:37 he had a good opportunity to do this
at 1:25 he shouldn't have done this, but instead maybe have done this
really kinda refine her options in a lot of situations
but then again i juss see a lot of bitterness being produced

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

why would anyone be offended
i guess maybe if you're giving really nooby advice when you're commenting on something that was part of DA PLAN

i like to JC grab because of the length
it depends

i dunno it's whatevers to ME

 

[Pi]

alright
i might make one
but it'll be one of my vids to start with lol
my buddy should be gettin his laptop fixed shortly
so i'll be able to record some matches
let's see i got two falcos, marth, captain, ganon, shiek to vs...lol


eh...is it too similar to the post your video here to get them critiqued thread?
i kinda wanna take it in a diff direction...

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

yeah that's what i was thinking
and it might get closed if it seems that way

whey don't you just post in the critique one...and take it in that different direction of yours
i mean it sounds like you wanna get mew2king about it
i dunno

 

[Pi]

yeah that's what i was thinking
and it might get closed if it seems that way

whey don't you just post in the critique one...and take it in that different direction of yours
i mean it sounds like you wanna get mew2king about it
i dunno

jajaja
idk
juss recently i been really watching how people approach in vids
like
when they get hit why did they get hit
then taking a broader look at some options they might not have covered
some predictable patterns they or their opponent had
and figured others might do the same thing and be able to shed some light on some things i missed or something
i'll see how it goes in the critique topic

 

[Tyserification]

After thinking about it, that could help I guess. I usually dont like the "at :30 you should did such and such" but after really lookin into it, it may help out with improving my shit. Never know. We should try it. I take criticism pretty well on the Samus boards so tell me my Samus sucks, because it does -_- I spot dodge too much.

*end rant

 

[Rat]

you spot dodge too much.


SAAAMOOOSE!

 

[Tyserification]

I got a question for HugS if he happens to drop by and see this post:

When you fight against Marths do you spot dodge much? I noticed that when you play against Falco/Fox/Falcon/Sheik you either dont spot dodge at all or do it maybe once or twice a match.

Is it more necessary to spot dodge against Marth because his grabs are so broken or do you keep with your usual wavedash oos -> well spaced move?

Was just wondering because I havent seen you fight against Marth since Ken back in 2007 and Ive been having trouble with getting away from Marth's grab for a while now.

Any feedback from the Samus community is also appreciated.

EDIT: Im trying to stop abusing spot dodging as you might have guessed. Its tough.

 

[Pi]

I juss finished watching hugs set with Mango (recent one)
Hugs did more spot dodging than normal, not sure why


Any way
With marth I wouldn't bother spot dodging much (actually most of the cast can't really combo you out of grab with good DI) because even if he does land the grab, if you DI it right he's not going to be able to follow it up with more than maybe 1 fair. Not sure if you can DI away from at least 1 fair. And apparently people have some sort of phobia against pummeling you.

If you can look for predictable times in which he grabs you it makes DI'ing a lot easier and will deter him from grabbing if he throws you away and then fails to follow it up, even though it shouldn't, I'm hoping people don't catch onto this, lol.

But I rarely spot dodge any more, I use to spam it all the time, I think I'm juss more aware of my opponents habits, and most characters you can even intercept their grabs with UB's. But at higher level play people do a lot of baiting so I wouldn't rely on that too much.

That's juss my experience with the marth that I play, but playstyles vary greatly. I want to play skratch some...he's got a crazy good marth ;|

 

[Tyserification]

My DI is probably just terrible because once I get thrown, I get Faird and then Im up in the air where I cant do jack squat or I get Fthrow -> Fsmash, which is probably a sure sign of ugly DI. I guess I should have asked:

When you're above Marth, what should you do?

I never ever drop aerials on Marth because I had a bad experience and last I checked its bad and dumb, dunno though. I typically try to maneuver myself towards the ledges then work from there, which for me, is still really tough.

I attempt that thing that HugS does where you ledgehop onto the stage and then do work, but I really dont understand the concept of that and I don't know what it does and why it works so well, perhaps someone can explain. Then aerialing from ledge is hella risky because Marth can stand 20 yards away where you cant hit him then do his signature Fsmash or grab.

I dunno, this matchup is just overall really tough for me even though it's my most played matchup. Maybe it has to do with my opponent, JBM, knowing how I play because we always play together? I dunno. I wanna know how HugS handles it since I base my style off of his (it fails badly because Im too impatient) and because he's the best.

 

[Pi]

I'd like to know what to do when above marth as well...
I generally juss try to cover my decent with bombs, which works well but I think I get impatient some times
I think if you can force him to 1 side or the other of the bomb you can drop down with a Nair with a fair amount of success, but it's hard being above that *******.
I'm thinking bomb -> grapple trixies might be useful here as well
Airdodge is always an option too, don't forget it.

And yea, being on the edge vs. a marth is hard.
I got into the habit of rolling because my friend couldn't space/time Fsmashes, but now he's been juss counting on me to roll and I've been doing it. So I'm going to mix it up with uncharged shots, get him to be where I want him to, then work from there.

IHSB I saw had some good success with quasi invincible wavelands into stuff,

~*Also aerial interrupting IS viable and IS an option if they're too close, especially if you're proficient enough with it to do it under cover of invincibility frames.*~
The timing is not that hard to learn, the window is pretty big. At the very least you can space yourself far enough onto the edge so that if he does fsmash you can shield it and not fall back off.

Getting up normally is also a good option in a lot of situations, even if they push you right back onto the edge, it's better to have them move in closer than stand in the range where they fsmash half your options.

I've gotten pretty good with the Hylian Lowrider as well, so ima be spamming that for a while, I'll let you know how it turns out lol.
At the very least if they are standing far to catch your roll it'll offer some cover for your safe return to the stage.
But if you're not wanting to try that uncharged shots are always an option, I can do those all day.


But yea, those two situations (above marth, off the stage/on the ledge with marth) really make me dislike the matchup so I'd really like to hear from higher level players on them.

 

[HugS™]

I spotdodge in front of marth when I blow my spacing. With other characters I can wavedash away before the grab attempt because their grab range isn't so long, so I'd be out of harm's way in time.

With marth, I couldn't wavedash away in time, so I spotdodge, or double spotdodge usually.
I just realized that there is a better option actually. With the right reaction time, you can always see the grab come out and have time to upB before you get grabbed in your shield. I just think the frames work out.

Example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rjlc1k2qxs0#t=6m03s

So technically, you just made me realize that it's possible to never get grabbed while in shield, you can react and upB to anyone's grab.

As far as what happens when marth grabs you, you are definitely put in a bad spot. Even if you DI correctly and only take 1 hit, the whole point of the grab is to add damage and to put you into the air.
Once Samus is into the air vs a marth, a good marth will try everything to stop you from coming back down, and rack up damage in the mean time.

Your focus on this match up should be your ground game, your anti grab game, and most importantly, your "get back to the ground" game.

Your "get back to the ground" game can be improved by riding platforms, using your jumps effectively, resorting to the ledges, and mixing up your fast fall timing.

Riding platforms - this involves great spacing on your part. You must figure out if he's close enough to hit you. You can waveland away on the platform if he's coming at you, you can waveland to jump if he's about to use his 2nd jump, you can even waveland to shield if he's too close to evade. The key is timing and spacing.

Using your jumps effectively - Basically, the moment you use your 2nd jump is the moment you should be able to make it back down. If not, don't use it.
If you are being hit, I tend to just take the damage and not use my jump. I focus on DIing correctly to avoid further punishment, as opposed to using my jump and getting KO'd because of it. Again, if you are not in a position to escape, don't use your jump out of desparation. It will make things worse.

Resorting to the ledges - At times you are taken so high off the ground, that coming back down to the stage becomes easy and predictable for marth. I like to float way off the stage, then return to the ledge using bombs, grapples, sweetspots, and jumps appropriately. If you have trouble getting back in from the ledge vs marth, then work on it. This option is vital.

Mixing up your fall timing - Most people tend to fast fall everytime, this becomes predictable. It's as simple as it gets, fast fall sometimes, don't fast fall at other times. Come down with whatever you see fit for the situation. Bombs also vary the fall timing, so use them too.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Using your jumps effectively - Basically, the moment you use your 2nd jump is the moment you should be able to make it back down. If not, don't use it.
If you are being hit, I tend to just take the damage and not use my jump. I focus on DIing correctly to avoid further punishment, as opposed to using my jump and getting KO'd because of it. Again, if you are not in a position to escape, don't use your jump out of desparation. It will make things worse.

This should be in every character specific board.

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

also your punch him in the face game

 

[Tyserification]

Awesome, Ill keep all that in mind for sure. Thanks a ton!

 

[Pi]

7 frames to react on the marth grab; (assuming the time to grab OoS isn't more)

at 60 fps
reaction time of .116 seconds
(but then again all actions inputted come out on the next frame so maybe only 6 frames to react)
definitely not impossible,
especially if you're expecting it

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/index.php
go check it out lol




also

wow
samus is invincible for 5 frames in her UB ;o
(at the start, from the ground)

 

[Tyserification]

Wow, Im slow as hell. 283.4 -_- Average is 215 -_-

*practices reaction speed shits for 5 hours

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

178.6, ranked 21 on the list off one try.

 

[TheLifeRuiner]

wowwwwwwwwwwwwwww
i had like 400something using the touchpad and then i tried my clicker, which failed and i got 2000something so i ended up with an average of 756 lol

to be fair i'm on a laptop with a semi-broken clicker

my fastest was 220ish

 

[Pi]

**** sveet
I hover around 190 apparently

i wanna see overall highest scores ;|
these are juss 24 hours/1 week
181 a few times
decreasing since
gonna eat and try once more

mr try hard

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

they were all around that number. i think my lowest was ~155 and my highest ~190.

i just did it again and hovered around 185-190... before i did it when i was more relaxed, and now i was being tense and was "trying hard" to be fast and got slower times.