Evo's Ruleset Announcement (UPDATED RULES)

[Yuna-Maria]

Yeah, dude, sorry for the SRK-hate, but with EVO and SRK being so intimately linked, its hard to differentiate the jerks from the intelligent debaters. I myself have met several cool SRK peeps and was just blowing off steam from this deathblow that EVO has delivered unto Brawl and the Smash community.

Also, the idiots of any community are always the loudest and most aggressive, look at our forums; the Brawl idiots(not to be confused with the intellegent Brawl supporters) and Melee dolts just make every argument here a massive flame war... its just the way democracy works.

So yeah, EVO, for shame. As if 2D fighting tournaments needed to becomer SMALLER in scale...

It's alright dude. Happens to us all.
A lot of SRKers are pissed by this move that Evo's made. The ones who don't are, for the most part, the loudmouthed Smash haters who think that they can win any argument over Smash's legitimacy as a competitive game by screaming NO ITEMS FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION over and over.

 

[Rebel581]

You did not make an awesome impression at Evo last year. Everyone was ****ing bored and sleeping through the melee finals, and it was pretty much widely considered to be the most boring part of the event. To the already hardcore smashers, yeah maybe, but to the larger audience, it was a travesty.

To equate this ruleset to only winning by "luck" is silly- a much more random tournament, the gamestop series, was won by respected players right? The better players will find a way to win.

Also, the 3 minute rule wasn't intended for replays: it's intended to keep the time schedule. Evo runs a ruleset that wants individual matches to take no longer than 15 minutes: 3 stock 7 minute 2/3 goes over this (21 minutes), 2 stock 4 minute 3/5 goes over this (20 minuteS), whereas 2 stock 3 minutes 3/5 fits this fine. If it came down to either 3 stock 5 minute 2/3 or 2 stock 5 minute 2/3 or 2 stock 3 minute 3/5, which would you rather see?

You realize if you find something boring because you don't understand what's going on in the game, then how would we feel during the SF finals or another fighting game which we have no idea what's going on? I watched a $1000 money match in some fighting game, and I had no idea what was going on. The only thing that made it interesting was the $1000 money match part.

And btw, it looked boring to me. Wouldn't be something I'd watch on youtube. They just seemed to use super attacks over and over again. Now obviously, I'm not one to judge. I don't understand that game mechanics. So I'm not going to say it's boring, because it's only boring to me because I don't understand what's going on. You might find this interesting because you know what they're doing. Now can we reverse this and realize the exact same thing is happening with you and smash?

These rules are horrible. 75m is enough reason to not go to this tournament.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Wow.....just wow....


Screw EVO's rules, that was the largest pile of **** I've ever seen concerning rules for a competitive game. I'd rather go to the other random Brawl tourneys across Texas then travel to that load of crap.

 

[Team Giza]

From what I read on SRK, it seems like some of the reason this rule set is like this is because of smashboard members inability to actually listen to Mr. Wizard's requests. Seemed like it was assumed that he would listen to smashboard members before those playing the game on SRK. When Wizard asked for tournaments to be held with items in order to test if they were tourney worthy you know what happened? Auto-banning of many items were done before the tournament so most items were never tested. He wanted the game to be tested throughly with items, with all stages, and without as well but the first section was never done by us. The SRK community did the testing, which was sometimes horrible since a lot of them are not good at the game, but they did listen to Mr. Wizard's request and that probably why the rules are the way they are.

... however the Wiz is known for joking around and making people go "WTF" before tournaments. Last years whole wii boxing tournament comes to mind.

Either way, its important to remember these are beta rules and will probably change. Some SRK members are still trying to get 75m, along with other stages and some items banned.

 

[ynomrahnsguht]

Don't make the mistake of lumping all of SRK into one category. I came here, from there, and I, like much of SRK, am just as annoyed by this as you are.
Evo's been making a lot of people on SRK mad as of late. For me, it's been three things in particular:

1. Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix
This was announced by Mr. Wizard on SRK as a solution to the 'unbalanced' Super Turbo. That right there is bullcrap. ST isn't unbalanced when a Cammy can waltz up and beat the living tar out of Old Sagat. Their efforts to balance this game have only served to make it broken from the professional standpoint.

2. The absurd snubbing of Guilty Gear
It was announced that after Marvel, ST, Third Strike, Tekken, and Smash, only one other game could be an official event, and it was a tossup between Guilty Gear XX Accent Core and Capcom vs. SNK 2. For those who don't know, Guilty Gear is one of the most popular games in the world and is still getting more and more players in the States. CvS2, on the other hand, hit its stride three or four years ago, and now is running on nostalgia. It's old, boring, and stale. So, naturally, SRK picks CvS2 as their last main event. They call it a 'final farewell,' but that game didn't need a big send-off. Evo needed the turnout that Guilty Gear would provide, and instead, they made a decision that's comparable to entering NASCAR with a Ford Model T.

3. This idiotic Brawl ruleset
I'm not gonna lie. At first, I was supportive of this. However, after giving it thought and reading through it several times, the ruleset for Brawl at Evo is nothing short of laughable. The inclusion of items is not something that I immediately oppose, despite my personal distaste for them. However, the inclusion of such items as Bumpers, Green Shells, Bob-ombs, Blast Boxes, Screw Attacks, and Smash Balls makes me wonder if I should ask the Evo execs for some of their crack. In addition, the stages that are banned aren't all even banned by the competitive Smash scene. My biggest gripe is Norfair. It's one of my favorite stages and doesn't need a ban, especially when the likes of Port Town Aero Drive and 75m are still open. I realize that Evo is attempting to innovate, but part of me wonders if they shouldn't have just continued being blissfully ignorant of Smash and giving the "NO ITEMS FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION" argument. This is just ridiculous.

Three strikes, you're out. If it weren't for the SNK scene being centered around it, I'd just forget the tournament altogether. I won't be in any official events. Peace out, Evo.

nicee qft.

 

[I_R_Hungry]

Their efforts to balance this game have only served to make it broken from the professional standpoint.

Huh? I have heard nothing of the sort >_>

 

[kamekasu]

This is hilarious.

EVO is coming up with their own neutral instead of using one of the 4 that already exists?

"Excessive stalling" is subject to the jurisdiction of a judge who can't differentiate between a bomber-stall and alternating throws? There should be a list of specific banned stalls.

Way to ruin counterpicks and get rid of advanced slobs in a game that is centered around matchups.

1.5 minutes per stock at two stocks is just foolish.

Sudden Death? Seriously? Ties should be broken traditionally, in terms of lives, then percentages. of course that wouldn't be a problem if they didn't have 2 stocks and a 3 minute time limit.

I'm not even going to talk about items. If EVO wanted to try items at a tournament, they should have picked a better set, something similar to the "Item Standard Play" list.

What a ridiculous stageban list. Norfair?

Hilarious.

 

[JesiahTEG]

--IMPORTANT--

I'm almost positive, through some connections I have, that Mr. Wizard was briefly let into the SBR, or Smash Back Room to watch and observe what we thought about items being on/off. I'm not saying the SBR has items on, no I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying there may have been a few members back there that wanted them on. It's possible. Or, whatever Mr. Wizard found in the SBR, may have swayed him to put items on.

Or not. I really have no idea. I just wanted to point it out, and if a SBR member sees this, I'd appreciate it if they explained to us what went down in the Back Room.

 

[Rebel581]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=a7JC4E-RHLY

Can we stop having people who suck decide or have any say in the rules? They obviously don't understand the game as well as people who are better at the game. Almost every person I've played smash with in my dorm room (and I can beat each one of them with pretty much every character in the game), could beat both of them.

Oh, and for why we should have no items.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44i-EM2thqo&feature=related

Oh wait, this is EVO. They'll probably take that video as a reason to have items. Random item spawns are exactly what I want in my tournaments.

--IMPORTANT--

I'm almost positive, through some connections I have, that Mr. Wizard was briefly let into the SBR, or Smash Back Room to watch and observe what we thought about items being on/off. I'm not saying the SBR has items on, no I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying there may have been a few members back there that wanted them on. It's possible. Or, whatever Mr. Wizard found in the SBR, may have swayed him to put items on.

Or not. I really have no idea. I just wanted to point it out, and if a SBR member sees this, I'd appreciate it if they explained to us what went down in the Back Room.

I'd also like to know what kind of people we have in the BR deciding the tier lists and the "SBR official rules." As I'd like any that say items should be on to be revoked of their membership.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Well, I'm sure everything the Back Room does is for the good of our community, however that does not decrease my level of curiosity as to what went down in the Back Room in regards to Mr. Wizard.

 

[JTB]

You did not make an awesome impression at Evo last year. Everyone was ****ing bored and sleeping through the melee finals, and it was pretty much widely considered to be the most boring part of the event. To the already hardcore smashers, yeah maybe, but to the larger audience, it was a travesty.

Right after the event, one of the staff members made a long post on this site about how much of a great impression the smash community made on EVO.

And I find it hard to trust a person who uses this as their avatar:

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Well, I'm sure everything the Back Room does is for the good of our community, however that does not decrease my level of curiosity as to what went down in the Back Room in regards to Mr. Wizard.

Sorry, but we don't like to share too much information about what goes on in the SBR. Needless to say that the SBR will never ban anything without good reason, and that includes things like items and smashballs. There are always people on both sides of the fence, which leads to intricate and lengthy debates on topics most people wouldn't bat an eye at. But no worries, the SBR only does things that keeps the future of the community, and the metagame of Smash, at its best.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Sorry, but we don't like to share too much information about what goes on in the SBR. Needless to say that the SBR will never ban anything without good reason, and that includes things like items and smashballs. There are always people on both sides of the fence, which leads to intricate and lengthy debates on topics most people wouldn't bat an eye at. But no worries, the SBR only does things that keeps the future of the community, and the metagame of Smash, at its best.

Alright, fair enough.

 

[TheManaLord]

You did not make an awesome impression at Evo last year. Everyone was ****ing bored and sleeping through the melee finals, and it was pretty much widely considered to be the most boring part of the event. To the already hardcore smashers, yeah maybe, but to the larger audience, it was a travesty.

To equate this ruleset to only winning by "luck" is silly- a much more random tournament, the gamestop series, was won by respected players right? The better players will find a way to win.

Also, the 3 minute rule wasn't intended for replays: it's intended to keep the time schedule. Evo runs a ruleset that wants individual matches to take no longer than 15 minutes: 3 stock 7 minute 2/3 goes over this (21 minutes), 2 stock 4 minute 3/5 goes over this (20 minuteS), whereas 2 stock 3 minutes 3/5 fits this fine. If it came down to either 3 stock 5 minute 2/3 or 2 stock 5 minute 2/3 or 2 stock 3 minute 3/5, which would you rather see?

You're a fool.

 

[Alphabravo]

It's truly disappointing. I thought that after the Evo 2007 season the smash community would start to get some respect from the other competitive fighting communities, but I was wrong.

I was planning to attend Evo World in August but now that I've seen these rules that won't be happening anymore. Here's hoping MLG will eventually decide to add Brawl to their Pro-Circuit.

As stated earlier, at least we still have community tournaments such as FAST and AZOneTwo that actually understand the smash community.

 

[brawlpro]

These rules are ****ed.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

You did not make an awesome impression at Evo last year. Everyone was ****ing bored and sleeping through the melee finals, and it was pretty much widely considered to be the most boring part of the event. To the already hardcore smashers, yeah maybe, but to the larger audience, it was a travesty.

To equate this ruleset to only winning by "luck" is silly- a much more random tournament, the gamestop series, was won by respected players right? The better players will find a way to win.

Also, the 3 minute rule wasn't intended for replays: it's intended to keep the time schedule. Evo runs a ruleset that wants individual matches to take no longer than 15 minutes: 3 stock 7 minute 2/3 goes over this (21 minutes), 2 stock 4 minute 3/5 goes over this (20 minuteS), whereas 2 stock 3 minutes 3/5 fits this fine. If it came down to either 3 stock 5 minute 2/3 or 2 stock 5 minute 2/3 or 2 stock 3 minute 3/5, which would you rather see?

Yep, gonna have to agree With Mana Lord here, you are a fool.


If your Time constraints and your ignorance towards general Smash competitive rulesets ruin the tourney, then **** it, let Guilty Gear have our spot. It deserves it much more than this crappified Brawl tourney EVO's about to put out

 

[JesiahTEG]

These rules are ****ed.

I liked it better before you edited it.

 

[HugS]

Even Sakurai thinks these rules are bad...

I'll only go if they pay for my trip as a celebration of my 2nd place finish last year.
And if they do pay for my trip, I still won't enter.

 

[The Game II]

Also, the 3 minute rule wasn't intended for replays: it's intended to keep the time schedule. Evo runs a ruleset that wants individual matches to take no longer than 15 minutes: 3 stock 7 minute 2/3 goes over this (21 minutes), 2 stock 4 minute 3/5 goes over this (20 minuteS), whereas 2 stock 3 minutes 3/5 fits this fine. If it came down to either 3 stock 5 minute 2/3 or 2 stock 5 minute 2/3 or 2 stock 3 minute 3/5, which would you rather see?

This is the first time I've read this reasoning, so I'm glad I finally saw it because I was also thinking it was for replay reasons.

--GCII

 

[AlphaZealot]

Oh...thought it was quite obvious it was time constraint issues, considering they never mentioned anything about replays and last year they had to do best of 1 because of time issues.

This is a lose lose situation, really:

Going to the tournament could be construed as agreeing with the ruleset
Not going could bring down attendance and hurt Smash's chance of being in the line up next year.

Either way, Smash is ****ed. I would suggest people still go though, and voice the opinion in real life. Show them how good we are, and if things get messed up cause of an item spawn, simply explain calmly that it shouldn't have been that way in the first place.

 

[brawlpro]

Jesiah I forgot what it said before I edited, anyways that evo thread is ********, a mod bans a guy for saying the rulez suck, and acts like a douche by giving a thumbs up after telling him he's banned, wtf.

and if things get messed up cause of an item spawn, simply explain calmly that it shouldn't have been that way in the first place.

I bet they would be like "rules are rules", and the guy who wins would say no johns with a smile.

 

[AlphaZealot]

We had a topic in the SBR about items, most of us voicing against them. Mr. Wizards motivation for including items lies elsewhere, trust me.

 

[Team Giza]

I seem to remember asking the players to show why items were broken almost 5 weeks ago. Not only did the SWF laugh, but they decided to blow this off since they think they are beyond helping out.

Much like in court, no evidence=you wont win your case. Brawl is not melee and the quicker people realize that the better. Just because you ruled out items in melee doesnt mean it rolls over.

Mr. Wizard asked for proof and not just theories that randomness equal uncompetitive which sounds to be the responses he got. SRK people offered video proof for what they felt was unfair for tournaments and had some pretty pretty good debates on whether or not these things should or should not be banned afterwards.

Just saying that items have no place in tournament play because of randomness is not going to hold up here. See below...

You guys should slow way down on what is "obvious."

Faust has random items and GGXX is a better game with Faust than without Faust. It would be a worse game if Faust could control which items he gets. He's a character where you have to take advantage of whatever situation you get, in the moment. Sometimes you have to gamble. I have throw an item in anti air situations on the hope that I get a hammer and I have supered to throw 4 items in those same situations to increase my chance of getting the anti-air. Sometimes that is a smart thing to do. Also, sometimes I combo into his swimming super because banking on the 75% chance it will deal damage is worth it in the situation. There is counter example 1 that "all randomness is bad in competitive games."

Next up is Magic: the Gathering. You can't get much more random than shuffling up cards and drawing. Kai Budde won something like 12 tournaments in a row all around the world. I once read an MTG article about how then only got 2nd place at the next tournament. It was newsworthy that he ONLY got 2nd place in a game that is designed entirely around randomness. Counter-example 2 that "all randomness in competitive games is bad."

Finally, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Dizzy points are random. Damage has a random scaling on it. When you are behind a round, you have a random chance to deal more damage (or not!) and the amount of boost you get is also random. When you do a combo with a Sonic Boom (just an example), the hitstun from projectiles slows down the game. During the slowdown, your input frames are dropped meaning combos with two Sonic Booms tend to fail literally randomly about 50% of the time (lucky for us, because the game would be broken otherwise). Also, the faster the game speed is set, the more frames are dropped in general, so it's possible for your reversal dragon punch to just not come out because of random factors (can be mitigated by piano method). Anyway there's a lot of randomness and even more than I mentioned here. Isn't it possible that some of this lead to closer tournament matches and added to the excitement? Awfully coincidental that the SF game with probably most randomness is also one of the best. Counter example 3 that "all randomness in competitive multiplayer games is bad."

Are items too random in Smash and should not be allowed? I'm not giving an answer either way. But you can't say "items should be off because all randomness is bad." You would have to make the argument that "items should be off because the amount of randomness in who wins is so great that it's higher than acceptable threshold of randomness in competitive games."

Another argument you might make is that the power of the items is too high compared to the power of other stuff, so it reduces the complexity of the game. Though for all I know, the opposite is true. Maybe the core game without items is simple enough that the additional complexity that comes from items adds to the overall experience.

My point is that you can't just call "obvious" on this.

If we want the evo rules to change all of you guys better get cracking at videos that would prove that more and more items, or items in general, NEED to be banned. We need to prove that items completely deteriorate skill or are too powerful. Get videos of it saved and sent out.;

The reason the evo rules are like this is all of you didn't take Mr. Wizard's requests seriously enough. If you take them seriously now it might not be too late.

 

[Tooth]

The revision is still very far from ideal, and will still drive off a ton of Smashers from attending Evo, but it's at least a baby step in the right direction.

How could anyone possibly think that being random takes skill? If a smashball appears beside me and I happen to get it, it's an auto-win. Where's the skill in that, since not only is the order of the items random but also where they appear?

Coincidence does not prove skill.

And sure, there will be some players who can probably overcome the BS rules just because they're THAT good, but they could still lose because of something stupid like a warp star, smash ball, etc., etc., etc.

 

[Rebel581]

Can I just use the multiple times in Multi-Man Brawl I have failed solely due to a random explosion due to a random item spawn?

Or other matches I've lost due to items that are nearly uncounterable in this game? Items are a lot stronger in this game then they were in Melee. Every single kill will be an item kill, as long as the opponent has decent DI, guaranteed.

Deaths by items =/= entertaining or skill worthy.

 

[Team Giza]

Then do what Mr. Wizard asks of you. Get all this footage on film. Make a solid argument to go against the groups who are against your view. If you make a good argument with video backing the rules could change. Get proof to your side, please. Have something to show, have multiple things to base your argument around and dont have holes in it.

 

[Tooth]

Can I just use the multiple times in Multi-Man Brawl I have failed solely due to a random explosion due to a random item spawn?

Or other matches I've lost due to items that are nearly uncounterable in this game? Items are a lot stronger in this game then they were in Melee. Every single kill will be an item kill, as long as the opponent has decent DI, guaranteed.

Deaths by items =/= entertaining or skill worthy.

Bam. Somebody's finally making sense.

 

[Rebel581]

Then do what Mr. Wizard asks of you. Get all this footage on film. Make a solid argument to go against the groups who are against your view. If you make a good argument with video backing the rules could change. Get proof to your side, please. Have something to show, have multiple things to base your argument around and dont have holes in it.

And if I have no way to record my matches? You're assuming I have some technology which I don't. I play using a Wii VGA cable, and until I can figure out how to record using a VGA cable, I can't record my matches.

 

[Team Giza]

And if I have no way to record my matches? You're assuming I have some technology which I don't. I play using a Wii VGA cable, and until I can figure out how to record using a VGA cable, I can't record my matches.

Play 3 minute, 2 stock matches and get them saved and send them to someone who can record videos. Unless your wii isn't alone... in that case your screwed.

 

[Tooth]

Play 3 minute, 2 stock matches...

For those of you who aren't observant, the Evo legal has been changed a little bit (check the first post in this thread, maybe?).

3 stock, 5 minutes, but still full of BS.

 

[S.R. XXVII]

Wait, did Sirlin just compare Faust's move with random items? No. You can contorl WHEN YOU DO THE MOVE, its doesn't just randomly pop out. Even thou you don't know whats gonna come out, you know that the move is random, and theres a set number of thing that do activate. And about the deck shuffling, you already have a strategy in your deck, so you can already deal with the fact that your cards won't come out as soon as you want them to. It's pre-set.

 

[Anth0ny]

*reads updated rules*

That wasn't so hard, was it Evo? Now turn off items, and you've got yourself a tournament.

Also, GG SamuraiPanda on 1337 posts

 

[Rebel581]

Wait, did Sirlin just compare Faust's move with random items? No. You can contorl WHEN YOU DO THE MOVE, its doesn't just randomly pop out. Even thou you don't know whats gonna come out, you know that the move is random, and theres a set number of thing that do activate. And about the deck shuffling, you already have a strategy in your deck, so you can already deal with the fact that your cards won't come out as soon as you want them to. It's pre-set.

Exactly. Part of the strategy in those games is to compensate that you won't know what will come out. The decks are usually made so the thing you want DOES come out.

And Faust sounds more like G&W's Judgment hammer than items.

 

[Inui]

They need to ban more stages and get rid of items. Also, Battlefield is the most neutral stage, not Smashville.

 

[Tooth]

Wait, wait. Maybe we all SHOULD accept these. I mean, insta-kill items are fair, right? It's all about who can get to them the fastest! As Sonic always said, "LOL UR 2 SLOW!!1" Don't mind that the spawn time and location is random. You should be able to control what you have no pull over, or else you're obviously not that good of a Smasher.

Jeez.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Even Sakurai thinks these rules are bad...

I'll only go if they pay for my trip as a celebration of my 2nd place finish last year.
And if they do pay for my trip, I still won't enter.

Heh, funny dude. I agree though, we should make videos of items on, and post them as proof to why it destroys competitive play. Tbh, I HATE the idea of items on, but I am willing to try it. Change isn't always bad, and if it is, you just revert back to normal.

 

[Nocturnal~Dragon]

The biggest problem with this rule set is the items(should be off), if thats changed im fine with the rules

 

[Tooth]

The biggest problem with this rule set is the items(should be off), if thats changed im fine with the rules

Really? No objections to the stage selection?

..Really?

 

[Anth0ny]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASZe7AsM5JY&feature=user

Let's not forget this video