Evo's Ruleset Announcement (UPDATED RULES)

[Team Giza]

For those of you who aren't observant, the Evo legal has been changed a little bit (check the first post in this thread, maybe?)..

I was just saying in order to get recorded matches to use as examples to try to get the rules changed to have more items off and levels banned.

Wait, did Sirlin just compare Faust's move with random items? No. You can contorl WHEN YOU DO THE MOVE, its doesn't just randomly pop out. Even thou you don't know whats gonna come out, you know that the move is random, and theres a set number of thing that do activate. And about the deck shuffling, you already have a strategy in your deck, so you can already deal with the fact that your cards won't come out as soon as you want them to. It's pre-set.

Items spawn on a pretty set timer, items spawn every 9-12 seconds (I think that was the number anyway). You know when it is gonna spawn and you know the areas it could spawn in dependent on the stage. The goal during these spawn times is to have as much of these spawn points controlled by you as possible and limit your opponent options if they have better control over some point as you. You know when it would happen and you have there is some sort of a system. The items in smash have more random props then Faust's, but is it enough to require a ban? Thats what you should be trying to prove with examples like video proof and item tournament results.

I agree though, we should make videos of items on, and post them as proof to why it destroys competitive play

Thats the ****ing ticket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASZe7AsM5JY&feature=user

Let's not forget this video

Personally I don't think this is good enough evidence to ban everything. Though I like Tomato and Heart banned just because of time restraints. The reason I dont think this is the best evidence is because neither player appears to be playing as if items are turned on. They seem to be playing a match as if items are off but with them on, and of coarse when you do this items seem more random. They aren't working hard enough to control the stage's spawn points during the spawn time. I may be wrong, I know they are crazy players and the like but...

 

[BigRick]

Personally I don't think this is good enough evidence to ban everything. Though I like Tomato and Heart banned just because of time restraints. The reason I dont think this is the best evidence is because neither player appears to be playing as if items are turned on. They seem to be playing a match as if items are off but with them on, and of coarse when you do this items seem more random. They aren't working hard enough to control the stage's spawn points during the spawn time.

lol I was about to say this

 

[LeeHarris]

excellent

--IMPORTANT--

I'm almost positive, through some connections I have, that Mr. Wizard was briefly let into the SBR, or Smash Back Room to watch and observe what we thought about items being on/off. I'm not saying the SBR has items on, no I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying there may have been a few members back there that wanted them on. It's possible. Or, whatever Mr. Wizard found in the SBR, may have swayed him to put items on.

Or not. I really have no idea. I just wanted to point it out, and if a SBR member sees this, I'd appreciate it if they explained to us what went down in the Back Room.

Trust me, almost the entire SBR is as disappointed as the people posting in this thread. Everyone in the SBR gave long, well written posts about why they felt the way they did. SRK had a ton of posts saying, "****ING ELITISTS ***S! PEOPLE WHO PLAY WITHOUT ITEMS ARE GHEY LOLOLLLZ. OMGOMG FD FOX ONLY NO ITEMS!! LOL!"

It just goes to show he wasn't even paying attention to the debate.

From what I read on SRK, it seems like some of the reason this rule set is like this is because of smashboard members inability to actually listen to Mr. Wizard's requests. Seemed like it was assumed that he would listen to smashboard members before those playing the game on SRK. When Wizard asked for tournaments to be held with items in order to test if they were tourney worthy you know what happened? Auto-banning of many items were done before the tournament so most items were never tested. He wanted the game to be tested throughly with items, with all stages, and without as well but the first section was never done by us. The SRK community did the testing, which was sometimes horrible since a lot of them are not good at the game, but they did listen to Mr. Wizard's request and that probably why the rules are the way they are.

There is an SBR member named the_suicide_fox who hosts only tourneys with items. He supports them and made some excellent posts to the pros and cons and why he thinks they should be in. Everyone who disagreed with him gave their counterpoints. Instead of saying who said what, I can tell you that both points were covered in GREAT detail and there was lots of info to go off of.

 

[S.R. XXVII]

I was just saying in order to get recorded matches to use as examples to try to get the rules changed to have more items off and levels banned.

Items spawn on a pretty set timer, items spawn every 9-12 seconds (I think that was the number anyway). You know when it is gonna spawn and you know the areas it could spawn in dependent on the stage. The goal during these spawn times is to have as much of these spawn points controlled by you as possible and limit your opponent options if they have better control over some point as you. You know when it would happen and you have there is some sort of a system. The items in smash have more random props then Faust's, but is it enough to require a ban? Thats what you should be trying to prove with examples like video proof and item tournament results.

Thats the ****ing ticket.

Personally I don't think this is good enough evidence to ban everything. Though I like Tomato and Heart banned just because of time restraints. The reason I dont think this is the best evidence is because neither player appears to be playing as if items are turned on. They seem to be playing a match as if items are off but with them on, and of coarse when you do this items seem more random. They aren't working hard enough to control the stage's spawn points during the spawn time.

Please show me the source of where you found all the spawn points for the stages and where your got the figure for the time( I might just test it myself), because I don't think that you can seriously predict exactly where and when the items spawn. If we could, items would be on all the time. And even with in that window of 9-12 seconds, you don't know which second its gonna come. And yes Faust's items have less variety, meaning you have BETTER probability of getting the SAME items MORE of the time. And you have randomness within randomness, such as when a box or capsule comes up. You don't know when or the capsule is coming, and you don't know what's IN THE CAPSULE! Boxes, capsules, pokeballs, and assist trophies all have this problem. Again, the Faust comparison is not valid.




OH SNAP! 100th POST! Yay!

 

[Gerbil]

The rules suck. Plain and simple. *shrugs*

The rules have been awarded the following...

 

[EnigmaticCam]

Who cares whether items are ban-worthy or not. Smash without items is one game, and smash with items is another. The latter is not a game I want to play, and since Evo is deciding not to offer the former, count me out on going this year.

At least on the bright side my wife will like to hear that we don't have to plan our Vegas trip in the middle of August.

 

[Team Giza]

Please show me the source of where you found all the spawn points for the stages and where your got the figure for the time( I might just test it myself), because I don't think that you can seriously predict exactly where and when the items spawn. If we could, items would be on all the time. And even with in that window of 9-12 seconds, you don't know which second its gonna come.

I dont really pay attention to much to this stuff anymore so I dont remember were all the sources were. But yes you don't know the exact second the item will spawn and thus you are supposed to apply constant pressure during this time (is that possible in brawl?). Each stages does have certain spawn points though, usually about 6-8 from my experience, but you never know were it will spawn. I'm not trying to argue for items really, so I dont really know how to well I am just throwing points that have been made into the air.

I don't even play brawl normally anymore. I just play heavy gravity.

 

[1170]

This will make a whole lot of other places want to pick up Smash. /end sarcasm

 

[Anth0ny]

This will make a whole lot of other places want to pick up Smash. /end sarcasm

Maybe you shouldn't be entirely sarcastic. If other tournament companies (MLG?!?) see that there's a huge amount of people willing to go to an itemless Brawl tournament, hopefully they'd jump on that boat.

Then again, low attendance at Evo would probably make Brawl look unappealing to other large tournament companies.

 

[1170]

Thinking back on this, my question is: Why does EVO and SRK feel a need to be different? I can understand that EVO wants to be different, but why? Why aren't they banning 75m? Because they feel a need to be different? If so, why do they need to be different? What I am seeing here is that EVO wants to be different at any cost, even to the point of undercutting the competativness of the Smash series. There seems to be a logical disconnect in this.

I highly doubt that this ruleset will last longer than one year. Either no one will go to it, undercutting the competativness of EVO, and the ruleset will be changed, or a no-namer will win it because Wario got blown up by a bob-omb, or EVO will drop Brawl next year because of any skill goes, and matches aren't competative.

 

[-Wolfy-]

MLG is increasingly aware of Brawl, be it gamebattles or the increased support of the competitive community ( MLG's Get Better Fast Site

Although I do not think they are actively seeking out that one little occurrence that will justify adding brawl to their circuit, I think that enough news would be generated from a general lack of the big names at such a largescale tournament to at least show those interested enough in the game that item-play just doesn't appeal to the audience that a company like MLG would be able to market.

Marketability is something I sort of blindly forgot when I was still passionately upset about organizing this big trip for nothing. EVO2K won't be the thing that is the be-all-end-all to smash's future. I personally think we need to represent ourselves the way the smash community has been perceived in the past. Despite being shunned by a good portion of the fighter community, we've been complemented on how well we've handled ourselves when all the pressure in the world was on us. This argument with the opposition within SRK, not all of SRK, will do more harm to our legitimacy than anything .

 

[Ojanya]

You know what would fix ALL of it?

Bring back Melee.

 

[OffTheChain]

Yo Evo doing it big, good **** to them.

 

[-Wolfy-]

-face palm-

No...no...just no.

This doesn't have anything to do with the melee argument, and you do yourself and the rest of us a disservice by throwing the metaphorical hand grenade and walking away. Let's keep it to EVO's ruleset.

 

[Finch]

This is god**** ridiculous. We have already proven among ourselves with many many reasons why items should not be in smash. We shouldn't have to prove it once again to ignorant elitists who aren't listening anyway. If Evo doesn't want to host a brawl tournament that will actually attract "the best of the best" then they should have had GG instead. We have amazingly large local tournaments for Brawl everywhere, and have no problem hosting our own big national tournaments. **** Evo.

 

[Firestorm88]

I think it's great that they changed the rules for stages and the amount of matches per set. I think they should change the 3 stock 5 minute thing to 6 minutes though. Not every game will go to the 3rd match (and definitely not 5 minutes every match) and I think this would save a lot of ties while staying within the 15 minute time frame required.

Now my biggest issue left is with:
Losing player can pick a new stage or new character, not both.
Winner keeps character (users of Samus/Zamus, Zelda/Shiek, and Pokemon Trainer are currently ALLOWED to change which character/mode they start in even after a win) but must select character/mode before other player has to choose stage/character.

Changing counter-pick methods from what is established DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Why? This is how we have it: "Loser picks stage, Winner picks character, Loser picks character". That system seems to offer more in the ways of strategy and knowing the game (stage/character matchups) than this system. Also, what happens for stage if the loser picks character?

As I'd like any that say items should be on to be revoked of their membership.

Anyone who presents a good argument for items should stay. There's always two sides. I remember kirbykid writing some great stuff on items for Melee.

Mr. Wizard asked for proof and not just theories that randomness equal uncompetitive which sounds to be the responses he got. SRK people offered video proof for what they felt was unfair for tournaments and had some pretty pretty good debates on whether or not these things should or should not be banned afterwards.

Just saying that items have no place in tournament play because of randomness is not going to hold up here. See below...

If we want the evo rules to change all of you guys better get cracking at videos that would prove that more and more items, or items in general, NEED to be banned. We need to prove that items completely deteriorate skill or are too powerful. Get videos of it saved and sent out.;

The reason the evo rules are like this is all of you didn't take Mr. Wizard's requests seriously enough. If you take them seriously now it might not be too late.

Problem: I remember AlphaZealot trying to do this but SRK just cried "TROLL TROLL FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINTATION NO WONDER YOU HAVE RED REPUTATION" and lowered his rep rating. It's impossible to argue for rules on that website or do anything supporting the way we play. It's shot down. I didn't read a large portion of the thread though (gave up when random smash ball spawn was repeatedly compared to supers you build up with combos and such in other games).

They need to ban more stages and get rid of items. Also, Battlefield is the most neutral stage, not Smashville.

I would argue against that and say Smashville is more balanced than Battlefield. What do you think is wrong with Smashville that makes Battlefield better?

You know what would fix ALL of it?

Bring back Melee.

Melee has nothing to do with this. Shut the hell up. Seriously. Melee with items on, crappy counter-pick method, stages that should be banned not banned. Go.

 

[SynikaL]

All this goes to show is how little the SRK community respects the core Smash scene and how willing they are to expand the chasm between the two factions.

And on that note, I recommend to let it be. This community should need nor desire any co-existential harmony with that community. Show your displeasure for the ruleset by refusing to support their tournaments.

Really, being affiliated with the SRK community in any way, shape or form is an ultimately base activity and existence. Take it from someone who knows.


-Kimosabae

 

[Sinz]

Seeing how horrible the general brawl discussion is. I decided to bring my post over here for some critique.

Wow, I must say I am actually pretty disappointed. This ruleset is kinda sad.
I have done tons of testing with items. around 50 hours. And I had fun but it ruined the strategic element to the game. Since the ruleset is in its beta stages that means it can and will change.

1.) The items do need to be off. In my testing they didn't just randomly appear, they just appeared and would mold the fight so much. I played against a Sonic that all he did was stay away from me and just get a smash ball to win the game. Where is the skill in that? There is none.

Also, the items they do have on are really overpowered. Turning off pokeballs was funny when they left on the golden hammer. These overall effect the game very oddly. If they turned off the smash balls and hammers, and the overpowered items it would probably be alright. However, I am still against the items, and will always be. They take out the biggest strategic element to the game. Prediction. Some of you may argue with this, but if you can be predicted easily you will probably lose.

Some people may say that turning off items may change the game. Yeah the game was made so you could choose to play with items or with out. That is one big thing right there. You have a choice. In some sense yeah your changing the game, because in one player all of the items are on, pretty much. But, the thing is this is multiplayer. Multiplayer is another whole type of game right there. It is very different from one player. You are playing against things that can think. And distorting those thoughts is very important. But here is the question, should it be up to the game to distort the other players plan or should it be up to his opponent?

2.)The fact that there are so few banned stages is shocking. Many stages can be played around but some can just be played to win. A D3 on bridge of eldin is busted. Someone going to Icice summit is just odd to me. The camping on that stage is actually kinda ridiculous. Snake can pressure the other characters down to the fish pretty easily. Don't even get started with falco and his meteor. Also, infinite bairs on 75m wih so many characters is kinda funny.

3.) They only banned stalling? What is going on right there? With hardly any banstages infinite become so much easier to do. I don't think I really need to go indepth on this one.

They did go indepth on what stalling was, just something that doesn't help the match progress. So camping becomes soo much better.

4.) The counterpicking rule is ... interesting. That is what I thought at first. However, that changed when I started thinking about it. What stage will it be if the loser changes character? I believe this question has already been brought up numerous times, however I still do not know the answer.

I do like the fact the winner cannot change their character. This has to make you know who your characters counterpicks are and how to play against them. I do support that part. The loser should be able to choose both their character and the stage.

5.) The stocks are odd. So is the time limit. Two stocks is too short as well with the time limit. I personally am for three stocks and eight minutes. Three stocks seems to be the best number for stocks at the pace of brawl. It allows for good length and great games. The eight minutes makes it harder for the stall campers to win the game just by running away and throwing. It gives time to the agressive players to win, and it gives the stocks to the control players to win. I think that it works best overall.

Also, three out of five is good for the short games, but two out of three is better for the longer games.

6.) Anyone notice there are no teams rules?

This ruleset makes the game more about whoever wins game one wins the set. This is turning more into a game of countering characters than countering players.

Just my two cents.

my ruleset for reference.

Singles


3 stock
8 min time limit

Dave's Stupid Rule
Stage cannot be selected if you've won on it during that set however if both players agree they may return to that stage.


Slob Picks

The loser may choose the next stage or elect to go random, then the winner may change characters, and then the loser may change characters.

Neutral Stages: Battlefield, Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Smashville

Counter Pick: Halberd, Pokemon Stadium,Delfino Plaza, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair, Pirate Ship, Frigate Orpheon, Castle Siege, Pokemon Stadium 2, Port Aero Town, Distant Planet, Pictochat, Hanenbow, Green Hil Zone, Old Yoshi's Island, Jungle Japes, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens, Brinstar

Banned Stages: Big Blue, Mushroomy Kingdom, Mario Circuit, Rumble Falls, Bridge of Eldin, Spear Pillar, Wario Ware, New Pork City, Icicle Summit, Skyworld, 75m, Super Mario Bros. Flat Zone 2, Shadow Moses Island, Hyrule Temple, Onett, Custom Stages
Items: None
Teams

3 Stock

8 min time limit

Friendly Fire - On

Neutral Stages: Battlefield, Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Halbred, Lylat Cruise, Smashville, Delfino Plaza,

Counter Pick: Luigi's Mansion, Mario Circuit, Norfair, Pirate Ship, Orpheon Frigate, Pokemon Stadium, Pokemon Stadium 2, Port Aero Town, Pictochat, Hanenbow, Green Hill Zone, Old Yoshi's Island, Jungle Japes, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, Green Greens, Brinstar, Bridge of Eldin, Castle Siege

Banned Stages: Big Blue, Mushroomy Kingdom, Rumble Falls, Spear Pillar, Wario Ware, New Pork City, Icicle Summit, Skyworld, 75m, Super Mario Bros. Flat Zone 2, Shadow Moses Island, Hyrule Temple, Onett, Custom Stages, Distant Planet

Dave's Stupid Rule
Stage cannot be selected if you've won on it during that set. However if both players agree they can return to that stage.

Slob Picks

The loser may choose the next stage or elect to go random, then the winner may change characters, and then the loser may change characters.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Yo Evo doing it big, good **** to them.

I love your Sig picture >_>

 

[-Wolfy-]

the counterpick seriously encourages top tier only, which is hypocritical because some of the SRK base always cries foul and brings up the all fox all FD argument, but their own rule rewards those who us only the most versatile of characters, as character matchups are very easy to manipulate in brawl

 

[iankobe]

How come nothing seems to work with Brawl?

Evo's just stupid enough to have items on.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

EXACTLY!!!


In thinking that us telling them to turn off items is elitist and refuting with "NI FO FD" is a huge contradiction in their arguements. People will either have to blow the competition out of the water skill-wise, or choose a character with good/great matchups IE High/Top Tier characters.

In trying to be different, they're only hurting themselves really. Matchups are huge in Brawl, and stupid counterpicking rules like that really reinforces the need to use a presumed High/Top Tier character to stand a chance.

 

[Vyse]

I agree with SynikaL.

If you don't like Item rulesets (Nearly all smash vets don't), don't attend tournaments that support them. Give your support to non-item play, and eventually MLG and EVO will have to take notice.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

But in turn, they could be ignorant enough to the point where they don't think Smash is a viable smash franchise because their crappfully made tourneys aren't getting the production they expect from other franchises.


Really it's a bad situation that doesn't look too good in either way for us. We have to hope that they open their ears and eyes to what is right for Brawl's competitive scene

 

[Meteor!]

Well guys, I just couldn't help myself. I raged so hard I got banned. Oh well, I've always thought SRK was a waste of time, now I know they're just stupid.

Personally, I hope they go through with it so that the tournament fails hard. Then they'll take Smash off their roster and we'll never have to deal with them again.

 

[BigRick]

Personally, I hope they go through with it so that the tournament fails hard. Then they'll take Smash off their roster and we'll never have to deal with them again.

lol you dont have to deal with them in the first place

you can just let them have their little tourney alone

 

[Meteor!]

lol you dont have to deal with them in the first place

you can just let them have their little tourney alone

We're still going to have to deal with people who watch this joke and say "Haha Smash is a terrible fighting game". You know they'll come.

You know, it kinda feels good to be banned from there.

 

[BigRick]

We're still going to have to deal with people who watch this joke and say "Haha Smash is a terrible fighting game". You know they'll come.

bleh in that case these ppl just have a lot of time to waste and u shouldnt bother with them

Brawl without items isnt that better of a game than Brawl with items anyways

 

[SynikaL]

But in turn, they could be ignorant enough to the point where they don't think Smash is a viable smash franchise because their crappfully made tourneys aren't getting the production they expect from other franchises.

I've got news for you: SRK does not regard Smash as a viable competitive franchise and they never will. The current situation with Brawl has firmly entrenched them in that notion especially.

Ultimately, how SRK feels about the Smash series should be irrelevant to you and its competitive community at large. Trust me when I say EVO holds zero weight in any scheme that does not involve pillaring itself or the Smash community's growth potential.

Even after the release of SF4, it is doubtful that community will extend to much beyond itself. This ruleset epitomizes the esoteric nature of their collective attitudes and agendas: The egoistic pursuit of attempting to prove to you and themselves, that their supposed foundation of fighting game intellect allows them to craft a more valid approach to your game.

There's no need to feel slighted by this, because with or without the Smash communal, SRK; because of its base level of maturity and lack of conciliatory attitudes, will likely never truly grow.


-Kimo

 

[Meteor!]

Actually I greatly prefer Melee. <_<

 

[Meteor!]

I've got news for you: SRK does not regard Smash as a viable competitive franchise and they never will. The current situation with Brawl has firmly entrenched them in that notion especially.

Ultimately, how SRK feels about the Smash series should be irrelevant to you and its competitive community at large. Trust me when I say EVO holds zero weight in any scheme that does not involve pillaring itself or the Smash community's growth potential.

Even after the release of SF4, it is doubtful that community will extend to much beyond itself. This ruleset epitomizes the esoteric nature of their collective attitudes and agendas: The egoistic pursuit of attempting to prove to you and themselves, that their supposed foundation of fighting game intellect allows them craft a more valid approach to your game.

There's no need to feel slighted by this, because with or without the Smash communal, SRK will likely never move forward.


-Kimo

This, this, and more this.

 

[thesage]

There's a problem though, this evo we're talking about, not some little tournament.

 

[Meteor!]

Yeah right, there's been half a dozen Brawl tournaments already that were bigger than this crap is going to be. Nobody is going to give a ****.

 

[SynikaL]

There's a problem though, this evo we're talking about, not some little tournament.

In your mind, EVO is the big picture, when it truly isn't.

But if attending a Smash tournament at an EVO event means that much to you, on a personal level, then support them and their esotericism.



-Kimo

 

[Finch]

There's a problem though, this evo we're talking about, not some little tournament.

Smash players host national tournaments all the time. Evo 2k7 really wasn't a big deal when compared to FCD, OC 3, pound 3, VLS, etc. It's not like we're some small community trying to get noticed. Local brawl tournaments already get better attendance than probably any other game in Evo's lineup this year. If SRK doesn't like smash then fine, we really don't need them.

 

[BigRick]

Synikal is right Sage...

you should worry more about FC then Evo

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I guess I was thinking EVO was the end all be all authority for competitive fighting tournaments there.


Thanks for that insight. I guess myself and many others will calm down after a few days to mellow out.

 

[thesage]

Synikal is right Sage...

you should worry more about FC then Evo

I know, but it'd be nice to get recognition from somebody. Like nobody else likes this community, not other competitive players, some uniformed casual players, even the game designers. It'd be nice to be accepted elsewhere y'know? I know this is already a big community, but it'd be nice if we got the recognition that other fighters (which are more "respectable") get. Also I plan on attending the next major tournament that is in or more east than Indiana. I actually was planning to go to Evo cause my mom wanted to take me to Las Vegas for my birthday (Sept. 1) so I actually could convince her to spend the money to send me. I don't want to go if these rules are in place lol.

 

[Meteor!]

It sucks, because I love the other fighting games they host, but now that I see that they're total gigantic douchebags, I don't even want to go for those.

 

[Meteor!]

I know, but it'd be nice to get recognition from somebody. Like nobody else likes this community, not other competitive players, some uniformed casual players, even the game designers. It'd be nice to be accepted elsewhere y'know? I know this is already a big community, but it'd be nice if we got the recognition that other fighters (which are more "respectable") get. Also I plan on attending the next major tournament that is in or more east than Indiana. I actually was planning to go to Evo cause my mom wanted to take me to Las Vegas for my birthday (Sept. 1) so I actually could convince her to spend the money to send me. I don't want to go if these rules are in place lol.

Well, you're looking in the wrong place. Competitive gaming communities of all kinds generally do not get along. We aren't the only competitive fighting game that SRK rejects. UltimateMK.com is the major Mortal Kombat community(which I'm a part of), and they feel the same way about SRK as SWF does, and vice versa. You've probably never heard of UltimateMK, because SWF doesn't interact with them either, due in no small part to the fact that the two forums generally don't have an appreciation for each other's competitive value. Even within SRK there's dissent between the different fighting games. This is an unfortunate but common trend between competitive gamers of all kinds. Even TwinGalaxies and SpeedDemosArchive hate each other.

I'm not just saying this stuff, either, this is all stuff I know from personal experience.