Evo's Ruleset Announcement (UPDATED RULES)

[Rebel581]

Items or not, the marth would've been ***** by sheik's dthrow anyways.

The vid was just an instance of a move randomly doing more damage than usual, and the sheik correctly using the opportunity to follow up with a KO. I'm being impartial here.

I don't think a random capsule spawn should have instantly killed Marth considering Marth can attempt to DI out of the dthrow or DI to a place where Sheik can't use fair, allowing Marth to live, despite at a high percentage. Sheik's dthrow =/= instant death against Marth. It's not where I'd want to be, but it's not a loss of a stock.

 

[SynikaL]

Yuna:

Just like many in the Smash community, your mind hosts a superlative image of Evolution that is largely disproportionate with reality.

When it comes to the Smash community, specifically, EVO is a mover nor shaker. It is less a 800 lb. gorilla and more a phantasmagoric scene of chaotic caged monkeys.

The very demographic you fear, would have no cognizance of EVO before coming here, and if they decide to cite their tournaments as a weighty example, so what? An influx of threads debating the subject is the largest picture to you? Of course not, that's silly.

Your real concern is either yet another division within the Smash community, or a largely petty scene, airbrushed by your flighty imagination on a very collapsable easel.

-Kimosabae

 

[BigRick]

I don't think a random capsule spawn should have instantly killed Marth considering Marth can attempt to DI out of the dthrow or DI to a place where Sheik can't use fair, allowing Marth to live, despite at a high percentage. Sheik's dthrow =/= instant death against Marth. It's not where I'd want to be, but it's not a loss of a stock.

But it could be with items on. That's just the way it is.

In Brawl this would mean increasing the consequences of your mistakes, which is something that many people complained about at first.

Seriously, nobody here thinks that Kizzu just got what he deserved in the vid? It all started with the bad motion sensor bomb usage... heck, if he cant use it, he should just throw it away. He wouldn't have given the positional advantage and etc.

Btw Yuna you made nice posts... but since theres so much issues in that ruleset I gotta say that I agree with some of the points made but I also disagree with others. I also feel that Final Smashes should be banned but like only the ''general brokeness'' argument was viable IMO. You cant ask to ban something simply because it lowers the balance between characters lol.

 

[Yuna]

Offtopic: Am I one of the only people who thought you were a man from the beginning?

One of few, I'm sure. I have managed on occasions, when my hair is right and I've plucked my eyebrows and facial hair make people think I'm a girl on sight, without even trying to.

I don't think a random capsule spawn should have instantly killed Marth considering Marth can attempt to DI out of the dthrow or DI to a place where Sheik can't use fair, allowing Marth to live, despite at a high percentage. Sheik's dthrow =/= instant death against Marth. It's not where I'd want to be, but it's not a loss of a stock.

Umm... a dthrow on Marth as Sheik in NTSC = Fair if you don't DI/DI away from her, Upair/Bair if you DI behind her, guaranteed (unless Sheik screws up or Marth manages to tech off a platform or something)... at higher % that is.

In the video at hand (if that's what you're referring to), Marth was Dthrown and then a capsuled spawned on his head, making his DI away from Sheik enhanced, so he flew into the proximity mine.

Your real concern is either yet another division within the Smash community, or a largely petty scene, airbrushed by your flighty imagination on a very collapsable easel.

I said it was a concern, not my main concern or even a big one. People were saying "This will have absolutely no effect on SWF". I merely said "Yes it will, if only indirectly".

 

[Crazy Cloud]

I don't think anyone should boycott EVO. Just treat it like the Nintendo tournament or Gamestop tournament, it would have been nice to have the skill prestige also attached to the victory at EVO, but now it'll always carry an asterisk.

It's hard to treat it like a nintendo or gamestop tournament when there's money involved. The only reason there was such a turnout at the gamestop tournament was because it was free to enter and within driving distance (first round anyways). This is different, it's gonna cost money to get there (plane/driving/bus/ect), hotel, enterance fee. I wouldn't go to a pro-item tourney I had to pay to get into.


So I came up with a conspiracy theory (Since everyone else has one)


Maybe word from the SRK forums on items didn't get spread on purpose (on SRK's part), because they knew SWF/SBR would get upset and possibly lead to a boycott EVO '08 Smash. It's not hard to find out that the competitive Smash community has always had trouble and disagreements regarding items (Hell, there's always atleast one topic on the gamefaqs board on the front page about items). So without informing the SWF/SBR communities, they gave their feedback on items being "better" in brawl. Since there was hardly any other input, then this got turned into the "Beta" Ruleset. This led to the Smash Community trying to explain why items should be off. The intelligent posts are ignored by the SRK members (which seems to, in turn, make Mr.Wiz ignore them too), that way the pro-item ruleset is left intact. With the lousy turn-out, Smash gets taken off the roster for next year. Then only the "true" competitive fighters are left in Evolution.

tl;dr version

They've shunned Smash for years, so they're doing screwed up stuff purposely to get rid of it?.


Maybe that's giving them too much credit, but it's hard to believe anyone thinks items (Golden Hammers and Smash Balls? Come on) make for a more skill-based Smash .

 

[SynikaL]

One of few, I'm sure. I have managed on occasions, when my hair is right and I've plucked my eyebrows and facial hair make people think I'm a girl on sight, without even trying to.

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Wait.


What?


-Syn
(i thought you were just gay?)

 

[EnigmaticCam]

Why the hell would you need video proof when logical thinking and simply playing the game will prove it?!

You'd think that would be enough, wouldn't you? But after 2,758 posts of "Brawl is not melee", "video proof onry plz", and "grandfather", I've completely given up on that forum. it's as if they've all decided to send some people to walk off the cliff to prove that, yes, gravity does work and it can kill you. Though, I will probably be there to say "I told you so" after the jokefest that is Brawl at Evo happens and their shenanigans are realized to everyone.

Good luck to you Yuna and anyone else who still cares enough about "Evo Brawl" by continuing to try to make them see the light.

I did want to point out though that there's a huge double standard on their whole "test everything first theory", as can be seen when they included Mario Kart DS in their lineup two years ago. I took first place in that competition, but there was a brief rules discussion that ended up banning a good portion of the tracks and leaving only a selected 20 or so, all based simply on logical reasons instead of testing. Yet this is the exact opposite of the attitude they claim they hold to all games. I'll try to find that thread, but it's somewhere in the "Evo Championship Series" subforum, here: http://forums.shoryuken.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8 (unless for some reason threads older than a certain date are removed)

Edit: nvm, I just realized that sub-forum is only 3 pages long. Oh well.

 

[Yuna]

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait. What? (i thought you were just gay?)

Since when do gay guys (not all of us, of course) not pluck our eyebrows or our facial hair (or shave it)? I just happen to be gay and have the ability to look like a girl sometimes.

I did want to point out though that there's a huge double standard on their whole "test everything first theory", as can be seen when they included Mario Kart DS in their lineup two years ago. I took first place in that competition, but there was a brief rules discussion that ended up banning a good portion of the tracks and leaving only a selected 20 or so, all based simply on logical reasons instead of testing. Yet this is the exact opposite of the attitude they claim they hold to all games. I'll try to find that thread, but it's somewhere in the "Evo Championship Series" subforum, here: http://forums.shoryuken.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8 (unless for some reason threads older than a certain date are removed)

Edit: nvm, I just realized that sub-forum is only 3 pages long. Oh well.

Please, point it out to them in the thread as your last post. I'd like to hear their reply (you made the discovery, you should have the honor of unveiling their hypocrisy).

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I see 36 pages in that sub-forum, at 50 posts per page >_>

 

[SynikaL]

Since when do gay guys (not all of us, of course) not pluck our eyebrows or our facial hair (or shave it)? I just happen to be gay and have the ability to look like a girl sometimes.

I dunno, I'm ignorant to the culture. Truthfully, the posts in conjunction with your sig were confusing (read: scaring) me.



-Kye
(****** Smash players? No, please.)

 

[Yuna]

I dunno, I'm ignorant to the culture. Truthfully, the posts in conjunction with your sig were confusing (read: scaring) me.

The sig is there to prevent further confusion over my gender.

(****** Smash players? No, please.)

One of the best or quite possibly at one time the best Guilty Gear players in the U.S. (maybe not anymore, but at one point in time, this was true) is a post-op male-to-female transgender woman (born a man, now a woman).

Trust me, me Smashing while crossplaying as Songstress Yuna (I was crossplaying as Songstress Yuna the first time I ever played Smash) is nothing.

 

[Aesir]

I don't want to flame but honestly I'm not surprised this is their rule set. The SRK smash community is more a less composed of individuals who hated what we did to melee.

Is it that hard to believe they'll do everything in their power to make sure that doesn't happen in brawl? this is painfully obvious when I went there in the beginning of this whole dispute and I got bull crap arguments that you would get on 4chan.

The biggest thing I find with items is there really is very little strategy to them. the process of using them, is strategic or can be, item use opens up a lot of different elements to the game that would make smash more in depth. However this is where it ends, random spawns kill this depth it's a shame really, I'm pretty sure theres a set timer on items however do you know which items will be spawned? There in lies the issue at least from my perspective.I spent the first month and half playing brawl with items on, and I can tell you the game was far less skilled based and far more luck oriented.

About Final Smashes I'll say this real quick it basically kills competitive play imo. Sure they look cool and are exciting to watch, but thats where it stops being cool. Theres a lot of over powered FS's for one, I'll give an example marths is fairly powerful (one hit ko lol) why would you allow someone to gain a free kill for little risk involved? and despite what SRK says no they're not all avoidable, marths can combo/follow up into his FS. Also considering the over all slow/floaty nature of the game it's not hard to predict where people will go and act accordingly. No this isn't because the other player sucks either it's because the nature of the game allows this to happen.

 

[EnigmaticCam]

Please, point it out to them in the thread as your last post. I'd like to hear their reply (you made the discovery, you should have the honor of unveiling their hypocrisy).

I would, but then I'd be compelled to respond to the responses, and I just don't have the energy to keep arguing about it anymore. You go ahead

 

[Yuna-Maria]

(****** Smash players? No, please.)

I do take offense, sir. I truly do.
And Yuna, you're talking about Jamie Saphri, right? She's not number one in the country anymore, but she is the best US Testament.
As for the ruleset, it's pretty cool that Wiz is listening to the people who are talking about this on SRK. He doesn't look at this board at all, I don't think, so if you guys want your voices heard, getcha an SRK account.

 

[Aesir]

^ arguing about smash in their smash subforum is like talking about competitive play on 4chan.

 

[SynikaL]

The comment is meant to be offensive to no one, so I apologize.

As stated, I am ignorant to these things. As such, being aware of playing Smash next to a transgender individual would make me feel highly uncomfortable, despite the fact that I could easily accept it.

People always fear what they don't understand. I am no wit above men.


-Kimo
(sorry for that last sentence. I'm in the middle of Beowulf)

 

[The Bino]

You can't really argue against these rules over there...you just get flamed and/or ignored.

Yea i know i read the pages of Shoryuken idiots posts

I also asked them a very easy to answer question.... i noticed on all SF games recently, or majority of the games, that they have absolutely no recovery lag on ANY OF THEIR MOVES, so ANYTHING CHAINS INTO ANYTHING... you can keep doing moves that hit multiple times over and over again, and break their sheild down, and if you don't have good timing to counter it within the small window of opportunity you have while they input the buttons to do it again, you will have your sheild broken....

I asked them how they could enjoy it competitively and everything, asked for vids to watch of advanced play and all that, explained im a Smash tourney player, then once they heard that they flamed me and said i need to play a real mans game, ie SF...

They're stupid over their, don't think just reacts

 

[BigRick]

Yea i know i read the pages of Shoryuken idiots posts

I also asked them a very easy to answer question.... i noticed on all SF games recently, or majority of the games, that they have absolutely no recovery lag on ANY OF THEIR MOVES, so ANYTHING CHAINS INTO ANYTHING... you can keep doing moves that hit multiple times over and over again, and break their sheild down, and if you don't have good timing to counter it within the small window of opportunity you have while they input the buttons to do it again, you will have your sheild broken....

lol here you show that you dont know much about their game

I asked them how they could enjoy it competitively and everything, asked for vids to watch of advanced play and all that, explained im a Smash tourney player, then once they heard that they flamed me and said i need to play a real mans game, ie SF...

They're stupid over their, don't think just reacts

and then you bash them... it would be stupid to think that you would not get flamed

 

[Yuna]

I do take offense, sir. I truly do.
And Yuna, you're talking about Jamie Saphri, right? She's not number one in the country anymore, but she is the best US Testament.
As for the ruleset, it's pretty cool that Wiz is listening to the people who are talking about this on SRK. He doesn't look at this board at all, I don't think, so if you guys want your voices heard, getcha an SRK account.

How many transgender male-to-female post-ops play GG Competitively at the highest level? Of course I mean Jamie :D. I met her when she was still a man (biologically, that is) at a tournament that had both Smash and GG and we chatted on MSN for a while.

Anyway, about SRK:
I'm on the verge of giving up and resorting to PM:ing MrWizard directly and waiting for him to respond instead of expecting him to actually read what's written in the thread. MrWizard has yet to reply to anyone in the thread that I can see and the only replies we're getting are from idiots who can't even spell "Competitive".

They've used age old arguments like "It's more fun!" and "You can defend against Final Smashes, always!" and won't see reason even when we try to explain that that is not the case. SRK is indeed crawling with immature idiots who can't play games properly. My repbar was green this morning (1 dot). Now it consists of 15 or so red dots (not that I care, I don't even go to SRK, even though I have an account there since 2004).

Only two of them have even attempted to refute my arguments. The rest just throw around blanket statements and/or ignore my posts completely. Heck, they've even begun using "It's too late now! Why weren't you here when we were debating this? MrWizard won't reconsider now!" as an argument.

Fine, be that way. Have a sucky tournament even many Casual gamers will look down at and refuse to attend (especially since it costs money). Have a tourney that's boycotted by anyone who's good 'cause it costs money to travel and enter and you could very well lose due to random lucky item spawns.

The Bino: Umm... you can't break shields in Street Fighter.

 

[Firestorm88]

As I'm saying in the SRK thread, I want them to answer to the counterpick issue before going off about items as the items stuff always becomes a heated debate. I see no reason for this new counterpick system which adds nothing while changing a standard that worked.

 

[Aesir]

You mean they haven't resorted to the "NO ITEMS FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION" yet?

I'm impressed.

 

[-Wolfy-]

lol here you show that you dont know much about their game



and then you bash them... it would be stupid to think that you would not get flamed

Well said, that's the angle I tried to take.

If they are being obdurate with us and our very different perception of the game, it doesn't help our cause any to show the same level of disinterest in the games they love. No one was ever troll'd into changing their mind on the internet. Only through cogent and overly sympathetic explanation, will any change come about. SRK may not believe the same things as us collectively, but just because a small group of them are actively against the "tourney ***" movement, doesn't mean anyone should condemn an entire community.

 

[Paixy]

Anyway, about SRK:
I'm on the verge of giving up and resorting to PM:ing MrWizard directly and waiting for him to respond instead of expecting him to actually read what's written in the thread. MrWizard has yet to reply to anyone in the thread that I can see and the only replies we're getting are from idiots who can't even spell "Competitive"..

Yeah, that thread gets more hits than a google search engine. PMing would be much more effective.

Seriously tho, if they rules upset you guys that much...I would still go and hold a SWF Brawl tourney in the BYOC(bring your own console) room(provided they don't magically change), get enough people in on that and well, seems to me like that would be a smack in the face. I mean the GG community got completely shunned and they are still holding a tournament at evo.

You mean they haven't resorted to the "NO ITEMS FOX ONLY FINAL DESTINATION" yet?

I'm impressed.

Actually its in there somewhere

 

[Meteor!]

How many transgender male-to-female post-ops play GG Competitively at the highest level? Of course I mean Jamie :D. I met her when she was still a man (biologically, that is) at a tournament that had both Smash and GG and we chatted on MSN for a while.

Anyway, about SRK:
I'm on the verge of giving up and resorting to PM:ing MrWizard directly and waiting for him to respond instead of expecting him to actually read what's written in the thread. MrWizard has yet to reply to anyone in the thread that I can see and the only replies we're getting are from idiots who can't even spell "Competitive".

They've used age old arguments like "It's more fun!" and "You can defend against Final Smashes, always!" and won't see reason even when we try to explain that that is not the case. SRK is indeed crawling with immature idiots who can't play games properly. My repbar was green this morning (1 dot). Now it consists of 15 or so red dots (not that I care, I don't even go to SRK, even though I have an account there since 2004).

Only two of them have even attempted to refute my arguments. The rest just throw around blanket statements and/or ignore my posts completely. Heck, they've even begun using "It's too late now! Why weren't you here when we were debating this? MrWizard won't reconsider now!" as an argument.

Fine, be that way. Have a sucky tournament even many Casual gamers will look down at and refuse to attend (especially since it costs money). Have a tourney that's boycotted by anyone who's good 'cause it costs money to travel and enter and you could very well lose due to random lucky item spawns.

The Bino: Umm... you can't break shields in Street Fighter.

I know what you're talking about. My rep was green since I made my account there like 8 months ago, and now I'm banned. There's simply no talking to these people. I just love how they say it's open to discussion and then COMPLETELY IGNORE everything anyone says.

 

[Yuna]

As I'm saying in the SRK thread, I want them to answer to the counterpick issue before going off about items as the items stuff always becomes a heated debate. I see no reason for this new counterpick system which adds nothing while changing a standard that worked.

It's obviously there so the loser gets a much greater chance of winning by being able to counterpick the winner without the winner being able to switch characters. I mean, it's unfair that some people play more than one character!

How dares anyone play as Lucas, Ness or Donkey Kong? They deserve a guaranteed loss in their 2nd game!

Maybe the reason why the rules are so strange is because Sakurai is secret in control of EVO this year. Which would explain why the rules are optimized to be as newbie-friendly as possible at the loss of Competitive play.

 

[Meteor!]

It's obviously there so the loser gets a much greater chance of winning by being able to counterpick the winner without the winner being able to switch characters. I mean, it's unfair that some people play more than one character!

How dares anyone play as Lucas, Ness or Donkey Kong? They deserve a guaranteed loss in their 2nd game!

This is funny because I was thinking about entering with DK.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I know about Ness' and Lucas' (marth grab lolz), but DK has a guaranteed-loss type of thing too?

 

[Yuna]

I know about Ness' and Lucas' (marth grab lolz), but DK has a guaranteed-loss type of thing too?

Pick King DeDeDe, downthrow. Rinse and repeat until 300% or so, then just kill him off.

 

[Rebel581]

I can't post on that stupid forum. I register and it tells me I don't have sufficient privileges. I'm very sorry I didn't give a **** about your forum and that you can't argue on our forum.

Can someone tell Keits to shut the **** up? I think you need some talent in the ****ing game before you start deciding the rules.

Oh btw, they've already done the testing for us. Just start citing their own videos.

Random box kills the Ike. The landmaster was unavoidable anyways, but a random box spawned and killed him instead. The Falco could not have possibly known this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TOh-quYffqY

Ike could not possibly have gotten the final smash in this matchup, and died because the stage killed him. The stage gave the FS to Falco, so he was killed twice by the stage.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nQvlvFZrM3c

Can someone explain why this match is sped up so much? This is just a match of curry **** and them sucking at the game. Curry's banned anyways. I'm just curious why it's so fast.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rH2jMyzMlgI

Two pitfalls spawn next to him. Hyrule cave of life problem (why are they even testing this stage?). Ike gets pushed off the ledge (can't really help that on, as it happens too often to count). The smash ball goes in the direction of Samus. Only Samus can get it because of how limited Ike's mobility is. Ike can't escape due to limited mobility. I love this one in terms of showing huge problems. It has so many problems in it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g20yJa_zSWI

These are only some of them. Keits has plenty of videos that show how unfair items can be. And then if we eliminate all of the items that are unfair, we pretty much have almost no items and might as well turn them off.

 

[BigRick]

Can someone tell Keits to shut the **** up? I think you need some talent in the ****ing game before you start deciding the rules.

lol just say it on the youtube vids

 

[Aesir]

Go tell them yourself rebel with my account :D

 

[Sinz]

I can't post on that stupid forum. I register and it tells me I don't have sufficient privileges. I'm very sorry I didn't give a **** about your forum and that you can't argue on our forum.

Can someone tell Keits to shut the **** up? I think you need some talent in the ****ing game before you start deciding the rules.

Oh btw, they've already done the testing for us. Just start citing their own videos.

Random box kills the Ike. The landmaster was unavoidable anyways, but a random box spawned and killed him instead. The Falco could not have possibly known this.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TOh-quYffqY

Ike could not possibly have gotten the final smash in this matchup, and died because the stage killed him. The stage gave the FS to Falco, so he was killed twice by the stage.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nQvlvFZrM3c

Can someone explain why this match is sped up so much? This is just a match of curry **** and them sucking at the game. Curry's banned anyways. I'm just curious why it's so fast.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rH2jMyzMlgI

Two pitfalls spawn next to him. Hyrule cave of life problem (why are they even testing this stage?). Ike gets pushed off the ledge (can't really help that on, as it happens too often to count). The smash ball goes in the direction of Samus. Only Samus can get it because of how limited Ike's mobility is. Ike can't escape due to limited mobility. I love this one in terms of showing huge problems. It has so many problems in it.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=g20yJa_zSWI

These are only some of them. Keits has plenty of videos that show how unfair items can be. And then if we eliminate all of the items that are unfair, we pretty much have almost no items and might as well turn them off.

YOur camera is funky in the the third game. You had transfer issues.

 

[-Wolfy-]

I watched a few of Keits videos. Even by item's standards, he's not good in the slightest.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=BzcT05dZ41U

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I thinks I'm convinced that half of the people on this board could beat Keits *** in Brawl. That is one of the worse Warios I've watched.

 

[Dark Hart]

I think some of the Moderators should talk to this guy and make sure he gets it all right, because if he doesn't...

 

[Aesir]

I don't even own the game and I'd **** his **** LOL.

 

[South_Paw]

Wow...

*sigh*

Its sad that melee didn't make a good enough impression enough last year to earn the kind of respect for smash and its metagame that would drive evo to make some better rules... its sad when somebody knows there rules are bad enough that they have to threaten banning for people talking about them. Obviously, serious flaming shouldn't be allowed, but the fact that additional warning was given is telling.

If SRK'ers and EVO veterans thought melee, after being around for over half a decade and had reached its prime in skill level in '07, was boring, then brawl is going to flicker and die in the scene before it gets anywhere. It seems like it is being expected to be MORE competitive than melee, even with having been just released a few months ago, which isn't fair to either game.

It seems that the rulemakers for EVO are just as ignorant of the competitive scene as was sakurai when he made brawl...

 

[thesage]

I actually already told Keits to stfu lol >_>;

 

[Meteor!]

lol just say it on the youtube vids

I already did. That guy is just outright BAD.