Evo 2kXV Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

I think that instead of nerfing her they should buff who needs to be buffed. But since the dev team seems to prefer te easy aka lazy way to do things...

You say that despite the fact that there's been more buffs than nerfs.

 

[Gawain]

How is nerfing any easier than buffing? Both are literally just changing a few numbers in the code.

Because its easier to change one person than several? It's pretty easy to see. It's hard to maintain parity with many changes, its easier with just a few.

 

[DunnoBro]

There's very specific reasons why she's the best. Needles and safeness.

You can't really buff a character to have a good MU vs that unless you make them ridiculous vs most other chars. IMO Mario, Diddy, and ZSS are my ideal of balanced chars. You have to remember for sheik to truly be balanced, she'd need to have bad MUs. Please, tell me what healthy character could have a good MU against that?

 

[Sorichuudo]

You say that despite the fact that there's been more buffs than nerfs.

If you talking about minor buffs like Marth's jab, then yes...
And unnecessary buffs like Ness's having less endlag or whatever on his down B, and Luma getting like, 4 hp points.

 

[Girthquake]

If we didn't have patch 1.0.4 Sheik would have a chain grab and so would DDD.

Saying patches ruin the game or make the game worse is just downsy ignorance. SoOoOoOoOoOoOoO many respected competitive games do regular patching and it keeps the game fresh and exciting.

 

[MatrixNexus]

If we didn't have patch 1.0.4 Sheik would have a chain grab and so would DDD.

Saying patches ruin the game or make the game worse is just downsy ignorance. SoOoOoOoOoOoOoO many respected competitive games do regular patching and it keeps the game fresh and exciting.

Smash 4 never had chain grabs.

 

[Mr. Johan]

It saddens me that we've had, what, 3 majors and the only I saw was back in APEX pools?

Raziek and Mr. II made top 48, but their matches were off stream.




Prediction: this game still has that new car smell and people use that as a source of optimism for character viability. Provided that future patches do not change things significantly, we'll start seeing, at a high level, more Sheiks, Diddies, Warios, and Marios, a few Luigis and Sonics here and there, and an offhand number of Rosalinas, Zamuses, Pikachus, Villagers, and Falcons that everyone can remember by name because they're so sparse and memorable as a result.

Basically Melee tiers 2.0

 

[Gawain]

There's very specific reasons why she's the best. Needles and safeness.

You can't really buff a character to have a good MU vs that unless you make them ridiculous vs most other chars. IMO Mario, Diddy, and ZSS are my ideal of balanced chars. You have to remember for sheik to truly be balanced, she'd need to have bad MUs. Please, tell me what healthy character could have a good MU against that?

I would add Roy tot he balanced list too. I think kill throws shouldn't be a thing and that everyone should have throws that both pop people low for aerial followups and a throw that goes VERY low to allow for tech chasing.

 

[|RK|]

I don't care about who's good, who's bad or who's placing the highest. What I am okay with is ZeRo taking a time out to focus on other venues and let other players have more of a leading influence of the ongoing meta. The same way Ken left Melee for a bit and saw the scene developing before he returned, the same way I'm okay with this.

I prefer that the best keeps leading the meta, personally.

 

[Girthquake]

Smash 4 never had chain grabs.

Actually on a decent amount of the cast (not all) both Sheik and DDD had chaingrabs before 1.0.4 involving fast fall canceling their up airs. Used to be that the speed it sent someone downwards was MUCH faster. Isn't the same anymore. Just look up old videos from October lots of people were talking about it.

 

[DunnoBro]

I would add Roy tot he balanced list too. I think kill throws shouldn't be a thing and that everyone should have throws that both pop people low for aerial followups and a throw that goes VERY low to allow for tech chasing.

His pressure game is about ideal but his neutral and disadvantage state is rather lacking imo. Not enough to make up for it like luigi does.

 

[MatrixNexus]

I haven't seen that being used much back then. Thank you for the info.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I get the distinct impression that EVO basically proved that customs are not the game-changing force of nature some people were fearmongering them to be. The only custom-specific things I saw personally (I didn't get to watch a lot of the streams) were a ledgestall Villager that apparently made it into top 32 but got knocked out in short order after that, Esam fishing super hard for Heavy Skull Bash vs. Abadango and missing every single one, and custom Sonic trying to camp out Mario and failing hilariously.

Does that about sum it up? Am I missing something? Will the internet continue to hate customs regardless? (Probably yes for that last one. Sigh.)

EDIT: On top of that, default specials seemed to generally be the order of the day, especially on Sheik. GF was all defaults, I think? I'm curious if the players who used defaults did so because they honestly consider them superior or because they didn't want to bother with customs at all.

 

[Sorichuudo]

I get the distinct impression that EVO basically proved that customs are not the game-changing force of nature some people were fearmongering them to be. The only custom-specific things I saw personally (I didn't get to watch a lot of the streams) were a ledgestall Villager that apparently made it into top 32 but got knocked out in short order after that, Esam fishing super hard for Heavy Skull Bash vs. Abadango and missing every single one, and custom Sonic trying to camp out Mario and failing hilariously.

Does that about sum it up? Am I missing something? Will the internet continue to hate customs regardless? (Probably yes for that last one. Sigh.)

You are kinda on point there, but if customs didn't changed the game for best either(aka make a lot of characters viable besides stuff like the ones you said), yes, the internet will still hate customs.

 

[Neoleo21]

I get the distinct impression that EVO basically proved that customs are not the game-changing force of nature some people were fearmongering them to be. The only custom-specific things I saw personally (I didn't get to watch a lot of the streams) were a ledgestall Villager that apparently made it into top 32 but got knocked out in short order after that, Esam fishing super hard for Heavy Skull Bash vs. Abadango and missing every single one, and custom Sonic trying to camp out Mario and failing hilariously.

Does that about sum it up? Am I missing something? Will the internet continue to hate customs regardless? (Probably yes for that last one. Sigh.)

If anything, I was more disappointed in a lack of customs in certain cases. I feel like Ally in particular might have done better if he looked into custom mario and marth.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You are kinda on point there, but if customs didn't changed the game for best either(aka make a lot of characters viable besides stuff like the ones you said), yes, the internet will still hate customs.

JohnNumbers made top 32 with custom WFT, which I thought was impressive even though I saw exactly zero of his matches.

 

[Sorichuudo]

If anything, I was more disappointed in a lack of customs in certain cases. I feel like Ally in particular might have done better if he looked into custom mario and marth.

People said he did a lot better with Marth than he did with Mario against Mr R's Sheik, so you are probably right.
Does marth has any custom that nets him a kill setup?

 

[Snackss]

I get the distinct impression that EVO basically proved that customs are not the game-changing force of nature some people were fearmongering them to be. The only custom-specific things I saw personally (I didn't get to watch a lot of the streams) were a ledgestall Villager that apparently made it into top 32 but got knocked out in short order after that, Esam fishing super hard for Heavy Skull Bash vs. Abadango and missing every single one, and custom Sonic trying to camp out Mario and failing hilariously.

Does that about sum it up? Am I missing something? Will the internet continue to hate customs regardless? (Probably yes for that last one. Sigh.)

EDIT: On top of that, default specials seemed to generally be the order of the day, especially on Sheik. GF was all defaults, I think? I'm curious if the players who used defaults did so because they honestly consider them superior or because they didn't want to bother with customs at all.

They were surprisingly not that influential, but that Villager had absolutely no business being in top 32, and that Sonic was nobody compared to 6WX. I feel like their effect is overall undesirable even if they didn't stop the top 8 players from getting to where they were with mostly default.

 

[Firefoxx]

How long did top 8 take? I want to say it was a little more than 2 hours but I forgot to mark the start and end times.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

They were surprisingly not that influential, but that Villager had absolutely no business being in top 32, and that Sonic was nobody compared to 6WX. I feel like their effect is overall undesirable even if they didn't stop the top 8 players from getting to where they were with mostly default.

The Sonic didn't use any customs until he got into his sets with Ally IIRC. So customs had zero effect on his standings.

Unless I'm mixing him up with another Sonic I saw on stream, but I don't believe I am?

 

[thehard]

Manny has far better tournament results than 6WX, what are you trying to say? I don't like his playstyle but he earned his placing.

Cheese Sonic actually works, with or without customs.

CaptAwesum thrives off of lack of MU knowledge

 

[ARGHETH]

People said he did a lot better with Marth than he did with Mario against Mr R's Sheik, so you are probably right.
Does marth has any custom that nets him a kill setup?

Crescent Slash gives him one with grab.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Apart from the results, I'm highly interested in what Nintendo will take away from this and what they will/won't deem troublesome enough to patch.

This is also something I doubt we'll ever get to really know apart from inferring the thought process behind a hypothetical future patch, but it's interesting to think about.

I highly agree with this.


Take from EVO what you will. Whether you enjoyed it, thought customs were jank, thought ZeRo winning yet again was boring (despite it being a completely valid win because the man has tons of skill), or w/e; EVO did give a lot of exposure for both customs and for top-tier choices such as Sheik, Roslina, Diddy, Sonic, and more. And to me, this type of exposure was a really good thing, because Nintendo was definitely watching since they were sponsoring this year.

While I personally love customs, I also understand why a lot of people don't like them. For every cool WFT, Wario, Fox, Palutena, and etc you could encounter in a customs environment, you also encounter an extremely defensive Villager, Rosalina, and Sonic in a customs environment as well. And you also get other silly things like DK's Kong Cyclone shenanigans, or Pikachu's extremely potent custom moves in Heavy Skull Bash and Thunder Wave. In comparison to the vanilla metagame, the trade-off is mostly neutral...though it does weigh more in favor for the top tier characters. But it does allow top tier characters to better compete against other top tier characters. (Namely Sheik)

However, it kind of becomes like Brawl Minus in a sense this way. You achieve more even matchup spreads by throwing more bad apples into the mix. And sure, while this may make the game more "balanced", it does so in a way that is more prone to negatively impact viewer interests. And therefore, many people currently see custom moves as being "toxic". And in a way...they are partially right. People's distaste for Sonic, Villager, and Rosalina are testaments to this. However, even in the default metagame, you are still going to encounter these bad apples regardless. With Sonic, Pikachu, and Rosalina still being annoying threats to always look out for, and Sheik is still an extremely potent character even though she doesn't get much out of customs besides Piercing Needles (which is more of a side-grade).


Look at it this way: Customs-On at EVO was a necessary "evil". A lot of the world's finest Smash 4 players were there, and they showed the world what they can do. And because of the high stakes and money involved, a lot of these top players resorted to using many of the "bad apples" that viewers generally dislike. This includes both extremely dominant characters in the metagame, as well as extremely dominant and centralizing custom moves as well.

The world got to see the good, and the bad of Smash 4 today. And so did Nintendo. They got to see the same "bad apples" that everyone else did. And while they might not see them in the same way that we do, they have also been pretty on-point when it comes to balance patches so far. And although I am not banking all of my hopes on them patching every "bad apple" in the game, I know for sure that some of these things are going to be addressed in the future. Especially since EVO gave them a lot of exposure.


And this is a really great thing, because we have nowhere to go but up from here.

 

[J0A0B]

no, the only hope is for defeatist attitudes to go away, the game is patched WAY too much.

What? You must be taking a shot at me alone with that statement because all those competitors certainly did not have defeatist attitudes and they still couldn't beat him. Not even gonna debate that too many patches remark.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Fair enough. Then the balance patches are the only hope left from here.

Although, something you have to realize is that high level players being dominant in major tournaments for 2-3 years in fighting games in nothing unusual. Also, realistically speaking, becoming a top level players takes years and, if you're not at that point now, you probably won't be until the next game if you even care that much or aren't bogged down by responsibilities by then. Nearly all the best SSB4 players now became recognized during the later Brawl years or Project M. Either way, if it discourages you that much, just stick to local tournaments or ladders like most people.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Suppose it'd be more productive if I gave my two cents on the tourney:

Now, did I like it? Yeah! I enjoyed the showing! Definitely was the first SSBU tourney I can say shows off customs and characters to their finest! It feels like the ruleset allowed for the burgeoning of customs to establish themselves to a competitive standard even after CEO.

Loved how Top 32 saw a huge array of characters, mainly till the Top 5. From Semis to Top 8, we got Ally's Mario & surprise Marth, GW FOW's Ness, CptAwesum & MJG's Villagers, Regi's G&W, Johnny Numbers' WFT, DaPuffster's Mii Brawler, ESAM's Pikachu, Static Manny's Sonic, Abandango's variety showing of Pac-Man, Wario, and even Rosalina at one point, with the main showing going to Dabuz along with an Olimar pick, someone did a Charizard and Meta Knight, aMSa's Greninja & Omni's Yoshi stick out to me the most from last night's pools.

With this being only a handful of the full roster, there's still many room left for more unappreciated, specialized characters to break through the future as possible counterpicks or even go-to mains, barring patches. I mean, going below Top 32, you'll see the pools wide with more characters!

Yet when it came to Top 5, it got a little boring seeing Sheiks and ZSSes go at it (Abandago's the people's champ!) and Diddy's already a sore sight to see. It wasn't so detrimental that it stagnated the hype or left little room for surprises though. If anything, it demonstrated to the community that the margin of "offensive-defensive" play is starting to even out, with offensive approaches ultimately dominating (suppose shield options, rolls, and airdodges having their value mitigated also helped that). While the results look promising and might improve the reception of the game in comparison to Melee/PM slightly, I still wish we could've seen Abandango make it to Grands so we could see just how much character approach vies towards one wing. His Wario setups were on point!

I wish the players would've taken advantage of full stage striking by playing stages usually off most stagelists (Pilotwings, Wuhu Island, Mario Galaxy, etc.) to mix up the matchups and help more stages be introduced to standard meta, barring that certain stages be counterpicks so not every matchup is stalled into camping or clocks out. Hell, just outright ban any tactics that result in attrition for certain stages and punish those who do. As for stages with hazards or gravity mechanics, if we can allow Halberd because of how telegraphed the Combo Cannon is and how it allows for player strategy, then what's so bad about - say, the two walls of Pilotwings? They can be memorized and adapted to, along with being useful for punishes and throw follow-ups towards higher percents.

Customs seem to be gaining competitive leeway and are pretty much standard at this point. Really helps mix up each matchup and brings a new layer of depth to the game. But really, they're just meant to be nuances of your normal moves and I'm okay with that. Maybe that's why some people are saying that the feature made the tourney just as blasé as the other majors, since they don't require new approaches like Palutena or the Mii Fighters would. If you were expecting too much outside a few nuanced specials, then you've only disappointed yourself.

On the subject of ZeRo's landslide tourney wins, I'm not too concerned about it's implications besides being a little boring to have no one else truly dispute his title. He's far from reaching Ken levels, but I'm too detached from him to care anyways. I mean, I admire the guy's prestige and skill. I tend to gravitate towards players who use lower-tier characters and my mains anyways.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Manny has far better tournament results than 6WX, what are you trying to say? I don't like his playstyle but he earned his placing.

I don't pay attention to Sonic results, but pretty sure that's because 6wx hasn't been going to many tournaments lately.

 

[thehard]

I don't pay attention to Sonic results, but pretty sure that's because 6wx hasn't been going to many tournaments lately.

This is true, but compare Manny's placings at CEO and EVO to 6WX's.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Smash 4 will be fine, it's bigger than ever.

 

[⑨ball]

I wish every character was lucky enough to have 1111 sets that were near optimal so customs arguments would actually be just normal "cry about character x this week".

I'd be really curious to see @Ffamran 's idea in action just to illustrate how much of a big deal it is when you artificially nerf characters.

 

[Kurri ★]

it got a little boring seeing Sheiks and ZSSes.

But there was only one ZSS...
Yes this is my only complaint on your post, everything else was good

 

[Sinister Slush]

This is true, but compare Manny's placings at CEO and EVO to 6WX's.

Did 6wx go to both?
Never know if one got bracket ***** while the other one had an easier match during the time.

 

[ShadowKing]

fun to watch and cant wait to see whos victory

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Despite things being like that since the very,very beginning I never felt like I should ask it like now... Why so much Smashville?! Like, this game has many legal stages. I know it sounds like I'm acting noobish, but, man, we had: Battlefield, Final Destination, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Castle Siege, Town and City, Duck Hunt, and Smashville itself. It's not like a BIG issue, but there are quite some options. Why so much Smashville, then? I'm serious, and I want a answer.

 

[thehard]

Manny placed 9th at CEO, 6WX 25th (lost to Fatality). Don't think 6WX made it out of pools at EVO. Just food for thought.

I don't really care about that right now though. EVO was amazing, and I am still giddy from it.

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

But there was only one ZSS...
Yes this is my only complaint on your post, everything else was good

That's... fair enough. XD You can blame that on my sloppy editing!

What was good about ZSS vs. Sheik was how even the matchup is. Both of them are glass cannons with tons of mobility and spacing tools, so it really boiled down to skill and exploiting character differences. Might as well be SSB4's Fox vs. Marth. I smell a fandom rivalry.

 

[⑨ball]

fun to watch and cant wait to see whos victory

Greetings from the future!

Don't spoil yourself if you haven't joined us in the time machine yet for some of the biggest highlights!:

Spoiler

ZeRo wins completing his triad of APEX,CEO, and EVO. 41 straight tournament wins.The semi-return of the HooHa in grandfinals.
Esam surfing USA against Abadango's pacman.
DaBuz making RosaLuma v Ness look like it's 9:1
Then taking Wario's bike to the face for the fastest stock loss in the entire EVO tournament
Angel Cortez EXPOSED as a solid player and consistent threat, barely loses to smart Pacman play
Nairo plays Zero well until ZSS' fsmash gets DI'd in the worst/best way possible. Thousands of Naifus die of heartbreak instantly
Nairo plays Mr R well until (???????)
CaptainAwesum tries to camp. Looks disgusted when timed out LarryLurr. Hilarity ensues.
Most interesting matches shown off stream making some players like SS seemingly come out of nowhere

 

[Sorichuudo]

Greetings from the future!

Don't spoil yourself if you haven't joined us in the time machine yet for some of the biggest highlights!:

Spoiler

ZeRo wins completing his triad of APEX,CEO, and EVO. 41 straight tournament wins.The semi-return of the HooHa in grandfinals.
Esam surfing USA against Abadango's pacman.
DaBuz making RosaLuma v Ness look like it's 9:1
Then taking Wario's bike to the face for the fastest stock loss in the entire EVO tournament
Angel Cortez EXPOSED as a solid player and consistent threat, barely loses to smart Pacman play
Nairo plays Zero well until ZSS' fsmash gets DI'd in the worst/best way possible. Thousands of Naifus die of heartbreak instantly
Nairo plays Mr R well until (???????)
Villager tries to camp. Looks disgusted when timed out. Hilarity ensues.
Most interesting matches shown off stream making some players like SS seemingly come out of nowhere

That one with the Villager, i think i missed that one, it was who vs who? Tell me it was captain awesum....

 

[deepseadiva]

The only ugly thing that occurred was Captain Awesomes nasty ass planking.

I wouldn't mind a house-rule like a ledge grab limit or banning trip sapling + extreme balloon trip on the same set. Thats the only gross thing. I'm glad a blanket ban is being seen as unreasonable the more and more we go forward.

 

[⑨ball]

The only ugly thing that occurred was Captain Awesomes nasty *** planking.

I wouldn't mind a house-rule like a ledge grab limit or banning trip sapling + extreme balloon trip on the same set. Thats the only gross thing. I'm glad a blanket ban is being seen as unreasonable the more and more we go forward.

"**** Villager."

-ASA Abadango July 2015​