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Evo 2kXV Competitive Impressions

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deepseadiva

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I mean I usually hate dumb rules like that, but as AA is fond of saying it might be important for "quality of life". Most criticism about customs is straight up scrubby whine - Airkong/Heavy Skull Bash/whatever are all comparable to default jank anyway. But planking is basically universally hated, and we have several clean cut options to remove it.

100000000000% better than a blanket ban at least. That I think is an honest compromise.
 

Ffamran

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I wish every character was lucky enough to have 1111 sets that were near optimal so customs arguments would actually be just normal "cry about character x this week".

I'd be really curious to see @ Ffamran Ffamran 's idea in action just to illustrate how much of a big deal it is when you artificially nerf characters.
Well, we could always have fun with -only tournaments like a national Ganondorf-only tournament. The hilarity of the boots! It'll be glorious I say! Glorious! :p

Personally, if such a tournament was held where characters are reduced to horrible Specials, it could show how much certain characters rely on their default Specials or customs or even show how strong characters are with just their regular moves. The issue with this is that there are characters who don't really rely on their Specials except for recovering or even at all. Case in point: Jigglypuff. Her gameplay is mostly use her regular moves. Now, Duck Hunt? They're going to be screwed if their projectile game gets worse. Other characters are so barren or have so little strong tools where it doesn't matter either way like... Zelda. Zelda's regular moves are okay, Farore's Wind being able to kill is her saving grace along with Nayru's Love being a good get off me and surround myself with a disjoint option. Then again, Zelda relied on like 3 moves in Melee and continues to rely on a few amount of moves as everything is either read-based or really pointless. Patches made her moves function better, but there was a reason why the Zelda boards called her Up Smash a taunt. Zelda having a worse set of Special doesn't do anything. I mean, where else does she have to go? Become an Assist Trophy now so people won't ever have to play her again? Although, technically she'd still be playable because of Sheik... >_>

Sheik with bad Specials would lose 3 kill options, 2 of which are reliable, and one damn good projectile. Although she doesn't exactly rely on Specials except for Bouncing Fish, she's going to have a rough time against say, Captain Falcon who's still loaded with kill options. Some of Sonic's customs are just options. Which is worse is subjective and even then, none of them stop him from camping with Spin Dash and Charge. It's just Homing Attack and Spring Jump would be "worse", but he's still incredibly fast, still hits hard, and can still camp.

It'd be one interesting idea, but one I don't see many wanting to test out. Still if we're going to ban customs because they give characters options, then we might as well ban all good options and make almost every character *** in this game. The rise of the DLC characters and P2W shall begin!
 
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Ghostbone

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If we didn't have patch 1.0.4 Sheik would have a chain grab and so would DDD.

Saying patches ruin the game or make the game worse is just downsy ignorance. SoOoOoOoOoOoOoO many respected competitive games do regular patching and it keeps the game fresh and exciting.
A lot of people hate league primarily because it patches the game every fortnight. (since that's probably the game you're referring to)
It keeps the meta stale (why innovate when the game is going to be changed in a few weeks anyway)

And other fighting games release new versions (essentially patches) every year or so at most, Smash's patch cycle is absolutely ridiculous for a competitive game, it doesn't give enough time for the meta to actually develop so we can judge who deserves changes.

Patches are ruining the game at their current rate
 
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Iron Kraken

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can we appreciate this top 32 for a sec? 7 :4sheik:, 2 :4diddy:, 2 :4sonic:, 3 :rosalina:, 2 :4villager:, :4miibrawl:, 2 :4luigi:(maybe only 1), :4pikachu:, :4fox:, 2 :4ness:, :4charizard:, :4gaw:, :4mario:, 2 :4wiifit:, :4marth:, :4palutena:, :4rob:, :4metaknight:,:4wario:,:4pacman:
i probably missed some, but thats far more diversity than any melee top 32 i ever saw. may this be a good omen for the games future.

a grand total of 20 different characters.
You missed :4olimar:. In Top 32 Dabuz lost game 1 to a :4wiifit: while using his :rosalina:, so he switched to :4olimar:and won games 2 & 3.
 

Snackss

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A lot of people hate league primarily because it patches the game every fortnight. (since that's probably the game you're referring to)
It keeps the meta stale (why innovate when the game is going to be changed in a few weeks anyway)

And other fighting games release new versions (essentially patches) every year or so at most, Smash's patch cycle is absolutely ridiculous for a competitive game, it doesn't give enough time for the meta to actually develop so we can judge who deserves changes.

Patches are ruining the game at their current rate
The problem with Smash Bros is that movement and character safeness are a huge deal. When a character is overpowered in Street Fighter, there are still compelling reasons to use other characters. Sagat was #1 in vanilla SFIV, but Rufus still had ridiculous offense, Akuma had insane combos, Abel had huge damage and solid anti-projectile options. In Smash Bros., the top characters are on top because they have everything. Zoning, stage control, frame data, defense. They just outclass everyone else and the metagame quickly narrows down to those characters. No matter how much you innovate, you're still ultimately fighting a losing battle when all of that effort and innovation runs against down throw up air racking up damage and being an easy KO setup, Sheik can still outcamp you and punish everything you do up close, and so on.
 
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Firefoxx

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A lot of people hate league primarily because it patches the game every fortnight. (since that's probably the game you're referring to)
It keeps the meta stale (why innovate when the game is going to be changed in a few weeks anyway)

And other fighting games release new versions (essentially patches) every year or so at most, Smash's patch cycle is absolutely ridiculous for a competitive game, it doesn't give enough time for the meta to actually develop so we can judge who deserves changes.

Patches are ruining the game at their current rate
And yet, more people play and watch League than any other game.

Smash 4 just had the third largest tournament in EVO history a couple weeks after having the largest tournament in CEO history. 100K people watched ZeRo vs. Mr. R., and its currently ahead of Melee in registration for Super Smash Con by about 100 players.

Its going to take a lot more than a conservative patch every other month to "ruin" this game
 

Fatmanonice

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Absolutely loving the fact that nearly all the characters that I regularly play with (aside from King Dogledingo, god bless 'em) made it to the top 32. I don't really follow or really care about specific players, to be honest. I mostly watch tournaments for character representation.
 

Girthquake

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A lot of people hate league primarily because it patches the game every fortnight. (since that's probably the game you're referring to)
It keeps the meta stale (why innovate when the game is going to be changed in a few weeks anyway)

And other fighting games release new versions (essentially patches) every year or so at most, Smash's patch cycle is absolutely ridiculous for a competitive game, it doesn't give enough time for the meta to actually develop so we can judge who deserves changes.

Patches are ruining the game at their current rate
Well golly, sure glad that there wasn't a meta developed around chain grabs, because we all loved those in Brawl. You're blowing things completely out of proportion by saying a patch doesn't give the meta time to develop. The meta has developed just fine alongside regular patching. Try again.
 

Goesasu

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Customs allowed middle and lower tier chars to compete and get to top 32, that speaks for itself how healthy are customs from a competitive point of view, they allow more competition, strategies and in the end more chars represented. Also they were a lot of hype, people were having a good time just watching them.

The best players still were the ones make it to the top, customs didnt allow bad players to advance over better players, they allowed more competition but they werent cheap.

Customs on is the way too go if we want a more diverse, competitive and fun game.
 

Snackss

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Customs allowed middle and lower tier chars to compete and get to top 32, that speaks for itself how healthy are customs from a competitive point of view, they allow more competition, strategies and in the end more chars represented. Also they were a lot of hype, people were having a good time just watching them.

The best players still were the ones make it to the top, customs didnt allow bad players to advance over better players, they allowed more competition but they werent cheap.

Customs on is the way too go if we want a more diverse, competitive and fun game.
What do you mean? We saw the same characters in top 32 we always do, aside from Pac-Man, who wasn't even using customs. We didn't see Falco or Peach or Ike or Marth, we didn't even see ROB or Greninja.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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I wish the players would've taken advantage of full stage striking by playing stages usually off most stagelists (Pilotwings, Wuhu Island, Mario Galaxy, etc.) to mix up the matchups and help more stages be introduced to standard meta, barring that certain stages be counterpicks so not every matchup is stalled into camping or clocks out. Hell, just outright ban any tactics that result in attrition for certain stages and punish those who do. As for stages with hazards or gravity mechanics, if we can allow Halberd because of how telegraphed the Combo Cannon is and how it allows for player strategy, then what's so bad about - say, the two walls of Pilotwings? They can be memorized and adapted to, along with being useful for punishes and throw follow-ups towards higher percents.
FLSS (which EVO used) is not striking from every stage in the game, it's striking from the list of legal stages. Which, for EVO, was Battlefield, FD, Smashville, T&C, Lylat, Delfino, Castle Siege, Duck Hunt, and Halberd.

And Pilotwings is regarded badly by most players because both planes offer powerful camping positions that are quite difficult to assault. Here's a video demonstrating the issues. (Fun fact: When Googling "charizard vs. rob pilotwings", the first result was my very own thread on the stage.)

What do you mean? We saw the same characters in top 32 we always do, aside from Pac-Man, who wasn't even using customs.
There was also a WFT and a Villager. Now, the specific method the Villager used to get there is...disliked by many, to put it lightly, but it's still true that Villager made it to top 32 at EVO with customs.
 
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Sorichuudo

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Customs allowed middle and lower tier chars to compete and get to top 32, that speaks for itself how healthy are customs from a competitive point of view, they allow more competition, strategies and in the end more chars represented. Also they were a lot of hype, people were having a good time just watching them.

The best players still were the ones make it to the top, customs didnt allow bad players to advance over better players, they allowed more competition but they werent cheap.

Customs on is the way too go if we want a more diverse, competitive and fun game.
That can be argued. Like i said in previous posts, there were not that many unusual characters in the whole tournament, so custom didn't allowed that much diversity. Plus, a lot of people think guys like Captain Awesome(is that his name?) only got as far as that precisely cause of his custom moves, and again, like i said in previous posts: not a single Ganon, Ike, Shulk, etc. I say ganon is a great example cause, he is supposedly one of the characters that improves a lot with customs, but lets be real here, even if there was a ganon in the tourney, he would have no chance against custom villEDGEr or pikachu(HSB fer days).

Customs didn't made the tournament lame as everyone including myself expected, but i still fail to see this diversity everyone talks about.
 

ARGHETH

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like i said in previous posts: not a single Ganon, Ike, Shulk, etc. I say ganon is a great example cause, he is supposedly one of the characters that improves a lot with customs, but lets be real here, even if there was a ganon in the tourney, he would have no chance against custom villEDGEr or pikachu(HSB fer days).

Customs didn't made the tournament lame as everyone including myself expected, but i still fail to see this diversity everyone talks about.
There were also, like no Ganon/Ike/Shulk mains in the tournament. There were maybe three good villagers and ESAM, so I'm not sure what that second point's about.
 
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Kurri ★

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Well... There was a Palutena and Wii Fit who got pretty far iirc. But they're pretty much the only two characters who REALLY get help with customs. Everyone else gets shuffled a bit, but nothing major.
 

Yeagerzard

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I actually won't expect :4charizard: to be in Top 32, that's a surprise to me. But, I love that Charizard is going up in the ranks of
Smash 4. I'm glad to be a Zard Main, thanks to Evo 2015! #Lizards4Life
 

Ghostbone

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And yet, more people play and watch League than any other game.

Smash 4 just had the third largest tournament in EVO history a couple weeks after having the largest tournament in CEO history. 100K people watched ZeRo vs. Mr. R., and its currently ahead of Melee in registration for Super Smash Con by about 100 players.

Its going to take a lot more than a conservative patch every other month to "ruin" this game
Just because the game gets a lot of viewers and support despite patching, doesn't mean patching is a good thing, that's a fallacy. League is also a different game to smash and owes it's popularity to the format of the game (it's like a team sport basically).

Smash 4 would probably just get just as many viewers and just as many entrants if the game was still 1.0.0 and grand finals were greninja vs sheik
 
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Gawain

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Just because the game gets a lot of viewers and support despite patching, doesn't mean patching is a good thing, that's a fallacy. League is also a different game to smash and owes it's popularity to the format of the game (it's like a team sport basically).

Smash 4 would probably just get just as many viewers and just as many entrants if the game was still 1.0.0 and grand finals were greninja vs sheik
Agreeing with this. League is terrible, I don't want anything about that trash influencing Smash haha.
 

TakeYourHeart

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It will definitely be interesting where the meta develops from here on.

ZeRo spending time on Melee may give other players a chance to define the meta in their own way, Customs weren't very explored by a fair deal of the players, Nintendo may have some more patches coming after this...

Exciting times ahead.
 
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Yeagerzard

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Agreeing with this. League is terrible, I don't want anything about that trash influencing Smash haha.
I agree LOL is getting bad and Nintendo's Fighting Game has arrived to overshadow League. In the next couple of years League will get booted out of Evo and Super Smash Bros. Melee and 4 will be in the lines of Street Fighter and MK. Love being a Smash Fan.
 

Kurri ★

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that's a fallacy.
So? The patches haven't even been that disruptive aside from fixing obviously degenerate playstyles.
I agree LOL is getting bad and Nintendo's Fighting Game has arrived to overshadow League. In the next couple of years League will get booted out of Evo and Super Smash Bros. Melee and 4 will be in the lines of Street Fighter and MK. Love being a Smash Fan.
League isn't in EVO... and 50/50 Kombat (Kappa) isn't all that popular in the FGC
 
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Girthquake

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Agreeing with this. League is terrible, I don't want anything about that trash influencing Smash haha.
It has nothing to do with League influencing Smash. It's more about Esports as a whole influencing Smash. The more you cry and complain about patches the more stupid you look.
 

Wintropy

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Honest opinion / thought dump:

Anyone expecting the first major customs-on tourney to radically alter the metagame has been setting themselves up for disappointment.

Unless there was some earth-shattering secret weapon hidden within these custom sets or a silent warrior waiting in the shadows to show us how it's done, EVO was never going to rock the metagame to its core. Top-tier characters are still top-tier because they have the toolkit and the wherewithal to deal with whatever comes their way; we know that no amount of custom shenanigans is going to suddenly made DK a hard counter to Sheik. That's just not realistic.

We've known in theory for a long time what customs can do: EVO is just testing whether our theories hold water or if we totally dropped the ball on it. We know more about customs and how they work in a major tourney than we did before EVO, which is good. We also know that customs, in addition to not being the game-breaking jankfest that had concerned folks beforehand, are not a magical panacea to suddenly make non-viable / semi-viable characters top-tier threats.

This is good. We've educated ourselves.

Yet it's still just a stepping stone. EVO was as much a testing ground for customs as it was an international tourney. We know now that some characters, in the right hands, can get further than they could in a customs-off environment. Villager especially reaped the rewards of this brave new world, though we saw some good stuff from other rarities as Bowser Jr, Mii Brawler, Palutena and DK. That's a good thing and a positive development towards a more robust, diverse meta.

It's not going to change things overnight, though. It's going to take time and effort from top players and a hell of a lot of community exposure to go places with the customs meta. The top-tiers were always going to dominate (with a few notable exceptions, which may or may not have been due to customs) because, well, they're top-tiers. A few new moves isn't going to suddenly rock the paradigm to its core. At best it just demonstrates that, yeah, things can be a tiny bit different, and there's room to improve.

That said, I think individual skill played as much a part as customs in creating a more dynamic roster. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aside from Wario's Fast Bike, did Abadango even use customs for any of his characters? How about Ally's Mario (I won't cite Marth as that was really an anomaly) or Dabuz's Olimar? If they did use customs, they definitely weren't the focus of their playstyle. I even would go so far as to say that individual skill made more of a difference in the highest levels of play than customs did.

Regardless, this isn't a treatise in defence of customs. Takeaway of this is that I think it's heedlessly optimistic to think this was going to be the fall of Sheik and the rise of DK (to use an arbitrary yet relevant example). What it is, is a glimpse into a potential evolution of the meta that is yet to come, though not for a very long time indeed.

That's why I think EVO is important, and why I think that, for all its success and excitement, we have a very long way to go.

Apologies if none of this made any sense, I'm just tossing out thoughts as they come to me. There's a kernel of rationality in there if you can find it, god rest your errant soul.
 

Ffamran

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What do you mean? We saw the same characters in top 32 we always do, aside from Pac-Man, who wasn't even using customs. We didn't see Falco or Peach or Ike or Marth, we didn't even see ROB or Greninja.
Top 32 I'm pretty sure had aMSa's Greninja, SM's Ike, and 8bitman's ROB. Marth at least showed up at the end even though Ally didn't do much with a him. I think Peach was there, but not in top 32. Falco made it to at least 65th because Keitaro was knocked out by Mr. II, a Robin player, who considering the fact that aside from the occasional Nairo, not a lot of Robins in tristate. As for which one of those players used customs, I don't know, except for Ally who flat out refused to use customs and I think Keitaro didn't use customs either. Also, keep in mind not everything was streamed like Tearbear tearing Nietono two new ones. :p

So? The patches haven't even been that disruptive aside from fixing obviously degenerate playstyles.

League isn't in EVO... and 50/50 Kombat isn't all that popular in the FGC
Disclaimer: this post is not directed at you.

Fixed play styles? Aside from Diddy not being able to kill as early, the absolute removal of Link's good jab cancel because of an "infinite", and a stupid nerf to Sheik's Bair instead of her Fair, no character in this game had major changes to their play style. By major, I mean like Fox suddenly going from what he is now to something like Ganondorf or Marth having on average, a reduced startup of 3 frames to all moves and being able to instantly auto-cancel all aerials. Those play styles still exist no matter how degenerate they are. Hell, some of them were never touched like Wario who still camps for Wafts like in Brawl.

Patches mostly fixed moves to function properly like Zelda's Up and Side Smash, Robin's rapid jab, Ike's Fair, and Falco's Up Smash, changed how moves work like Marth's jab, Dr. Mario's Up Smash, Falco's Uair, or Charizard's D-throw and U-throw, or toned down things like Diddy's Uair, Rosalina and Greninja's stuff. Some of them were poorly done like Sheik's Bair nerf and Link's jab cancel dying because people cried about a fake infinite. And some buffs like to Ike weren't major. Launch, yes, Ike was underwhelming, but probably in a similar position to Brawl Ike, a flawed character. Now, he's better, but he definitely didn't jump up to top tier. Patches also didn't turn Diddy into a low tier or ruined Greninja. They're worse, but not so worse that they're completely and utter unviable and a waste of code that could have been used for better characters like Pichu or Metal Mario.

Patches haven't done much. Compared to LoL's patch **** 'cause we can and people will deal with it, Smash 4's patches are more like bug fixes. If you want disruptive, pick any character and think of ways to massively nerf or buff them. That's disruptive. Sure, we could pick Zelda and nerf her, but that's still disruptive since players would seriously be ****** off a low tier like her got nerfed of all characters and severely at that. Now, let's buff Lucina so she does 35% more damage and knockback than Marth's tippers. Yeah, Marth would literally be obsolete not to mention that Lucina would be able to kill at 70% consistently just by landing a hit no matter how sloppy.
 
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|RK|

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It will definitely be interesting where the meta develops from here on.

ZeRo spending time on Melee may give other players a chance to define the meta in their own way, Customs weren't very explored by a fair deal of the players, Nintendo may have some more patches coming after this...

Exciting times ahead.
How? For me, every win without ZeRo has an asterisk. As a spectator, I want to see the best player play. As a player, I want to see the best player play. I can't imagine that Nairo and Mr. R and the rest want ZeRo to leave without being beaten. I'm sorry, I can't stand the attitude of "thank God the best player is gone." I'm not usually a competitive person, but I understand that competitive people don't think this way.

I've harped on this point enough, sorry.
 

Hippieslayer

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I think the commentators were great overall, but I would've liked a little more hype at times, the kind of commentary that helps get your blood pumping when you're watching the stream, what I absolutely do not want to hear are explanations of basic game mechanics, like this move does that or the like. There was still a little to much of that. I'm aware I'm being very nitpick and want to point out that I'm by no means unhappy with the commentary as it was great. But it really kills hype for me when commentators drop the pace to explain things which most everyone know or should know. If commentary is to straight out explain mechanics I want it to be in the cases where its actually interesting to hear and not just stuff anyone who follows the meta knows, like the kind of stuff Pierce could sometimes say, where he explains the moves two characters are using against one another in a scenario in a way that makes whats going on between them and in the minds of players clear, more advanced stuff.Moreover, hype matches require hype commentary, salem vs m2k at apex was a great example of this, the commentators there really did an outstanding job projecting all the energy in the building, it was Keitaro and some other guy who I can't quite remember (maybe gun blade?). In any case what I'm getting at is I think EE should've been on commentary for the majority of the semi's and wii u's, don't switch commentators so often, switch one of them if need be. If you have a guy like EE let him sit there and build up his synergy with the game until he reaches that state of flow in which he is able to commentate with his incredible enthusiasm and metaphorical splendor. IMHO D1 and EE together could've handled all of the semi's and final's together on their own.
 

Pazx

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What do you mean? We saw the same characters in top 32 we always do, aside from Pac-Man, who wasn't even using customs. We didn't see Falco or Peach or Ike or Marth, we didn't even see ROB or Greninja.
We definitely saw ROB. Amsa's greninja drowned in QFs I think.

Results with Characters
1st. ZeRo :4sheik:/:4diddy:
2nd. Mr R :4sheik:
3rd. Nairo :4zss:
4th. Abadango :4wario2:/:4pacman:/:rosalina:
5th. Dabuz :rosalina:/:4olimar:
5th. Ally :4mario:/:4marth:
7th. ESAM :4pikachu:
7th. FOW :4ness:
9th. Larry Lurr :4sheik:/:4fox:
9th. Rain :4sheik:
9th. SS :4villagerf:
9th. Static Manny :4sonic:
13th. False :4sheik:(maybe :4luigi:)
13th. DaPuffster :4miibrawl:
13th. Regi:4gaw:
13th. Mocha :4sonic:
17th. 8bitman :4rob:
17th. John Numbers :4wiifit:
17th. Salem/Tyrant (lol double DQ) :4metaknight:
17th. MJG :4villagerf:
17th. Angel Cortez :4diddy:
17th. Bloodcross :4charizard:/:4fox:
17th. CaptAwesum :4villagerf:
25th. Trevonte :4sheik:/:4palutena:
25th. Shaky :4ness:
25th. Salem/Tyrant (both DQ'd) :4sheik:
25th. Mr. Con Con :4luigi:
25th. Falln :rosalina:
25th. Vinnie :4sheik:
25th. Christian Rendon :4wiifit: (i think?)
25th. Tweek :4bowserjr:

[a lot of] Sheiks, 3 Rosalinas + Villagers, 2 Diddies, Nesses, WFTs, ZSSes, Foxes
 

Gawain

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As do Hakan players everywhere. Just ask PR Rog at last year's EVO.

I support super-campy Villager, if for no other reason to encourage counterpicking.
Character counterpicks are the dumbest thing on the planet if I'm being honest. In an ideal world you shouldn't have to counterpick because your main can't beat some character. That's nonsense. You should be able to win with anyone.
 

Smog Frog

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i feel like we should draw attention to the fact that there's a :4gaw: in top 16. is this character really garbage?
 

Hippieslayer

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Not really a fair assessment, though. One or two moves don't cause characters to skyrocket. Taking a look at the top 32s and compare them with top 32s of past tourneys should paint a better picture for what impact customs have.

To suggest that top 8s would change just because customs legal would be to say we're playing an entirely diffferent game when customs are on.
Customs provide the meta with more room within which it may grow though, with customs on its more likely we'll see hidden high or top tiers step into the light later on, like Oli and Wold in brawl for instance.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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Unless Ally won with Marth I wouldn't want to have it next to his name (much like I didn't like seeing Falcon against ZeRo's name at apex, he played it 1 match and LOST IT; Ramin was exactly the same too).

Anyway pretty happy to see the thread didn't go terrible while I slept in terms of custom arguments.
I missed EVERYTHING, which sucks.
 

Sarki Soliloquy

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FLSS (which EVO used) is not striking from every stage in the game, it's striking from the list of legal stages. Which, for EVO, was Battlefield, FD, Smashville, T&C, Lylat, Delfino, Castle Siege, Duck Hunt, and Halberd.
So basically all standardized legal stages are availible from the start? 'Kay then, I misunderstood.

ParanoidDrone said:
And Pilotwings is regarded badly by most players because both planes offer powerful camping positions that are quite difficult to assault. Here's a video demonstrating the issues. (Fun fact: When Googling "charizard vs. rob pilotwings", the first result was my very own thread on the stage.)
I am aware that the platforming of the planes promotes campy play and I've seen that video. If it weren't for players defaulting to cheap tactics for stages with one-way dividing walls/platforms or walk-offs, then the stage would be perfectly viable. Also, there are a couple counters and chase options around turtle-y opponents staying on one side of the plane(s) that I can think off, even if they end up being risky. Nonetheless, it still stands as a suboptimal stage to counterpick.
 

kenniky

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Wait, question, did Salem and Tyrant actually get DQ'd, or did they just lose?
 

ParanoidDrone

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So basically all standardized legal stages are availible from the start? 'Kay then, I misunderstood.


I am aware that the platforming of the planes promotes campy play and I've seen that video. If it weren't for players defaulting to cheap tactics for stages with one-way dividing walls/platforms or walk-offs, then the stage would be perfectly viable. Also, there are a couple counters and chase options around turtle-y opponents staying on one side of the plane(s) that I can think off, even if they end up being risky. Nonetheless, it still stands as a suboptimal stage to counterpick.
Unfortunately, asking players to "play nice" and not do everything in their power to win is not something we can reasonably ask, so we ban the stage. Same reason we ban Temple.
 
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RonNewcomb

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The problem with Smash Bros is that movement and character safeness are a huge deal. When a character is overpowered in Street Fighter, there are still compelling reasons to use other characters. Sagat was #1 in vanilla SFIV, but Rufus still had ridiculous offense, Akuma had insane combos, Abel had huge damage and solid anti-projectile options. In Smash Bros., the top characters are on top because they have everything. Zoning, stage control, frame data, defense. They just outclass everyone else and the metagame quickly narrows down to those characters. No matter how much you innovate, you're still ultimately fighting a losing battle when all of that effort and innovation runs against down throw up air racking up damage and being an easy KO setup, Sheik can still outcamp you and punish everything you do up close, and so on.
Ya know, we could revert all of the nerfs that Sheik has received if we nerf only her grab's startup time. Since strike / grab / block / idle is the rock-paper-scissors-lose of fighting games, it ain't cool that even when someone guesses right vs Sheik, their startup time on their everything still loses to Sheik's anything. Slow grab is what keeps ZSS's KO power and 0-frame jab in check. Reverting Sheik to have her middling KO power and needles back, where her KO power and jab isn't quite as good as ZSS's, but giving her a bad grab that's not quite as bad as ZSS's, would give Sheik some bad MUs to go with the good ones. Sheik would have trouble with shields at close range (but not far range, because unreactable needles), therefore giving some characters at least an option in the RPS triangle that doesn't lose no matter what.

Re: character variety in this EVO, remember that as a game ages the variety tends to decrease, as more people discover who the true low tier characters are, and give up on them in favor of more winning characters.
 
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