Evo 2kXV Competitive Impressions

[Ryu_Ken]

The Falcon players who came also really dropped the ball too. I was disappointed to be sure.

Oooooh yeah. I didn't see ANY Falcons on stream.

 

[Ray-Den]

besides (custom) sonic and custom villagers, evo was incredible.

These time-outs were just silly though

 

[Sorichuudo]

Not really a fair assessment, though. One or two moves don't cause characters to skyrocket. Taking a look at the top 32s and compare them with top 32s of past tourneys should paint a better picture for what impact customs have.

To suggest that top 8s would change just because customs legal would be to say we're playing an entirely diffferent game when customs are on.

Well, if this

can we appreciate this top 32 for a sec? 7 , 2 , 2 , 3 , 2 , , 2 (maybe only 1), , , 2 , , , , 2 , , , , ,,
i probably missed some, but thats far more diversity than any melee top 32 i ever saw. may this be a good omen for the games future.

a grand total of 20 different characters.

is anything to go by, the only ones that seemed unusual are Zard(who got recently buffed), G&W(who barely used any customs if i remember well), WFT, Palutena and MK(who has been seen as stronger than what people thought recently). Also isn't marth here just cause Ally used him for one match?

Also i don't mean that i expected characters to skyrocket to those positions, i am saying that some characters that are never used in the first place remained like that even with customs on. Still to early to compare it either way, i am just saying that customs this time didn't brought the lameness everyone expected, but didn't brought much "variety" either.

 

[Gawain]

Uh... The competition is getting better, but the thing is, so is ZeRo. He practices a lot too, you know, probably more than anyone else.

I wouldn't chalk it up to JUST practice. He's obviously fundamentally just better. I know people like to deny it here but there is such a thing as natural talent, and he's got it in spades over everyone else.

 

[J0A0B]

I will give you that Nintendo needs to get their **** together and start doing patch notes AND talking to the community when balancing the game if they actually care about it.

But, no one got good within the past months? Have you considered the slight chance that everyone got good, INCLUDING ZeRo?

Thanks for agreeing on the first part, but wasn't ZeRo already good? Maybe too good since he's used the best character, Sheik, enough to know how to exploit every advantage she has in match-up data including against her own self. Last I checked, I thought Diddy was supposed to be an even or weaker matchup against Sheik. So I'd say it's more of an advantage of understanding Sheik than gaining matchup advantage against her with Diddy. Everyone else though, seems overly problematic when up against any Sheik. Mr. R kinda proved it as well. It just isn't good balance.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, "playing an entirely different game" is exactly what some anti-customs people complain about, which we've just seen doesn't really happen.

In fact, that's the complaint I have about the normal metagame as a whole.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Apart from the results, I'm highly interested in what Nintendo will take away from this and what they will/won't deem troublesome enough to patch.

This is also something I doubt we'll ever get to really know apart from inferring the thought process behind a hypothetical future patch, but it's interesting to think about.

 

[Appledees]

The Falcon players who came also really dropped the ball too. I was disappointed to be sure.

Could be worse

could be Mega Man who probably didn't win a single game in any of their matches

also shoutouts to Zero winning with the clutch hoo ha that was an amazing finish

 

[Ffamran]

Losing a ditto match doesn't make the victor a better main. Its how they handle other MUs which earns them the 'best X main', which we didn't get to see since Mk in general got little to no stream screen time.

Ito most likely has 0 exp against another MK, i honestly don't know what its like to get Uair combo'd since i never face another MK good enough to not flop a braindead easy combo.

Ito might still be the best MK, but can lose dittos similar to Fatality with Falcon(Thanks @ Ffamran ). Results however tips into Tyrants favor he got 13th at CEO and he probably could've gotten 15th at EVO if he had woken up but got 17th instead. 2 big tournaments and he got top 20 with nothing but MK, while Ito gets strong results at locals week after week.

Basically a top level MK got booted off early and another MK who beat the top MK got DQ for going Jigglypuff for 30mins. It was destiny.

Not only that, but going against characters you use, but not in a ditto is still difficult. Case in point: Dabuz's Rosalina vs. Greenbeast's Olimar. Name some Olimar players for me other than those two since I can only think of Logic, Myran, Soulimar, and Rich Brown. Let's go into region detail, Dabuz is mostly in tristate, Logic competes in MD/VA, Soulimar and Rich Brown are from CA, Myran is from FL, and Greenbeast is from the Midwest. Yeah, probably not going to meet with each other often. Dabuz had to ditto Greenbeast which worked better than using Rosalina. Greenbeast on the other hand has Rayquaza and I think 2-3 other Rosalina players in the Midwest. Even if they're not Dabuz-level Rosalina, he probably knows how to deal with Rosalina.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Thanks for agreeing on the first part, but wasn't ZeRo already good? Maybe too good since he's used the best character, Sheik, enough to know how to exploit every advantage she has in match-up data including against her own self. Last I checked, I thought Diddy was supposed to be an even or weaker matchup against Sheik. So I'd say it's more of an advantage of understanding Sheik than gaining matchup advantage against her with Diddy. Everyone else though, seems overly problematic when up against any Sheik. Mr. R kinda proved it as well. It just isn't good balance.

I don't know man, if that's the case it just means that ZeRo> Mr. R in terms of MU knowledge, wich brings me to my other point: ZeRo also got better as time passed, he practice too you know?

Question: how many of those characters were there?

None. Wich is my point, customs didn't brought many characters we don't see in default tournaments anyways. At least this time, is what i meant.

EDIT: To clarify, i think you guys think i meant i expected a lot of uncommon characters in top on this tournament due to customs, but i meant that they weren't there at all.

 

[Smog Frog]

Yeah, I agree.
Surprised that not a lot of Luigis got very far.

i actually didnt expect much at all. he's vastly overrated and in general gets beat by fundamentals(aka good players that make it to top 32). i think this tournament kinda backed my(and others)points up with results.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

i actually didnt expect much at all. he's vastly overrated and in general gets beat by fundamentals(aka good players that make it to top 32). i think this tournament kinda backed my(and others)points up with results.

Well, point taken, I guess. Guess is the superior one after all.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Apart from the results, I'm highly interested in what Nintendo will take away from this and what they will/won't deem troublesome enough to patch.

>diddy uair 2stronk
>nerf zelda's phantom

Well, point taken, I guess. Guess is the superior one after all.

You rascal.

You really want to start this again, don't you.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Not really a fair assessment, though. One or two moves don't cause characters to skyrocket. Taking a look at the top 32s and compare them with top 32s of past tourneys should paint a better picture for what impact customs have.

To suggest that top 8s would change just because customs legal would be to say we're playing an entirely diffferent game when customs are on.

The game is more varied/balanced with customs but doesn't make characters top tier(with the exception of Brawler of course). The top 32 definitely had more variety than Apex 2015 and a lot better matches skill and spectator wise.

 

[Twewy]

I'm just glad my main placed high. To see Wario get that far in that tournament will definitely encourage more use and more Warios in other tournaments.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

You rascal.

You really want to start this again, don't you.

Eh heh, what can I say? The results don't lie

 

[J0A0B]

I don't know man, if that's the case it just means that ZeRo> Mr. R in terms of MU knowledge, wich brings me to my other point: ZeRo also got better as time passed, he practice too you know?

Guess so. I really want to believe the classic "Nobody's perfect", and ZeRo is making it very hard to believe in that. Especially if he's dropping the game for a period undefeated. That just seems so obnoxious.

I know I said, I'd quit online, but I do hope this game gets balanced better so that even ZeRo can prove being on top is a difficult task, instead of making it look too easy.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Man, if it wasn't for Sheik Wario would be RUNNING this metagame.... OK, maybe not, but he'd definitely have a much better tournament presence.

I hope she gets nerfed to oblivion in the next patch.

 

[Kilfman]

Im just curious why do people get discouraged whenever zero wins a tournament for a game thats only a year old? This is something common among other fighting games such as justin wong during the mvc2/early sf4 days. Just give the game&people time.

 

[Kurri ★]

Guess so. I really want to believe the classic "Nobody's perfect", and ZeRo is making it very hard to believe in that. Especially if he's dropping the game for a period undefeated. That just seems so obnoxious.

I know I said, I'd quit online, but I do hope this game gets balanced better so that even ZeRo can prove being on top is a difficult task, instead of making it look too easy.

Well nobody is perfect. The games against Nairo were actually close. In fact, Nairo almost won two of them if it hadn't been for choking last minute.

 

[Snackss]

Disappointed that aMSa was literally the only Greninja. They need to buff his shuriken.

 

[Ray-Den]

wario is just stupid imo

this "auto g&w bucket"-fart makes it a pain for the opponent and the viewers

and the bike spam was real

 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

It saddens me that we've had, what, 3 majors and the only I saw was back in APEX pools?

Otherwise, it's probably obvious that we're starting to see the trend of which characters will be rounded out top tiers maybe for the life of this game. Melee's pretty much all Fox, Falco, Marth, and a couple Captain Falcons and Peaches with a few niche Ice Climbers, Jigglypuffs, or Yoshis. Granted, SSB4 already proved it handles character balance and viability much better than Melee or Brawl ever did, but expect to see Zero Suit Samuses, Sheiks, and Diddy Kongs being frequent faces, maybe with a stray Rosalina & Luma or a couple.

 

[Snackss]

wario is just stupid imo

this "auto g&w bucket"-fart makes it a pain for the opponent and the viewers

and the bike spam was real

Anything else would have been instantly swatted out of the air by Sheik. She has positive matchups against 90% of the cast, what are you gonna do?

 

[Wintropy]

Yeah, can we just take a moment to appreciate how good Wario was in the final sets?

Japan know their stuff. It's definitely in part due to Abadango's inspired playstyle (love ya Abbie~), but some of the stuff Wario can do is just magical. I really feel like he can turn the tide of the whole game if he can clutch the Waft: watching Abadango put the pressure on with just the abject fear of that move was a thing of beauty.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Guess so. I really want to believe the classic "Nobody's perfect", and ZeRo is making it very hard to believe in that. Especially if he's dropping the game for a period undefeated. That just seems so obnoxious.

I know I said, I'd quit online, but I do hope this game gets balanced better so that even ZeRo can prove being on top is a difficult task, instead of making it look too easy.

Well, to be fair, there is this quote from Gawain

I wouldn't chalk it up to JUST practice. He's obviously fundamentally just better. I know people like to deny it here but there is such a thing as natural talent, and he's got it in spades over everyone else.

So yeah, i stand by and say that ZeRo is getting better alongside everyone, but he IS better to begin with. That is truth, but i still say it's not JUST his talent.

And yes, this game needs more balance, but usually that is true to most fighting games.

 

[J0A0B]

Well, to be fair, there is this quote from Gawain


So yeah, i stand by and say that ZeRo is getting better alongside everyone, but he IS better to begin with. That is truth, but i still say it's not JUST his talent.

And yes, this game needs more balance, but usually that is true to most fighting games.

Fair enough. Then the balance patches are the only hope left from here.

 

[Smog Frog]

no, the only hope is for defeatist attitudes to go away, the game is patched WAY too much.

 

[Ray-Den]

Anything else would have been instantly swatted out of the air by Sheik. She has positive matchups against 90% of the cast, what are you gonna do?

I didnt say that he didnt play wario accordingly. Its the characters fault, relying on this comeback-move. Thats why i said "wario is just stupid".

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Bloodcross played mostly Fox, not sure if he won with his Charizard.

Pretty sure he won with Zard on stream if I recall.

 

[outfoxd]

I just wish we could run customs on and off events at TO discretion and if youre predisposed to one, just dont do the other tournaments. You don't see wrestlers forcing themselves to go to Judo tournaments if they dont want to, though both are forms of competitive grappling.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Zero is a person that I love to see play because he's so fun so watch. And I'm so happy that he won EVO in that fashion. And the viability of characters in this game it's amazing. I really loved it.

I would have liked 6WX to get farther to the tournament though. He hasn't been so strong.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm still shocked by the Ganon-shaped void in the EVO roster.

Then again, I don't think I've ever seen a Ganondorf player in a national before...

 

[Spinosaurus]

I didnt say that he didnt play wario accordingly. Its the characters fault, relying on this comeback-move. Thats why i said "wario is just stupid".

Wario is only reliant on clutch wafts for his bad mus...which goes without saying.

 

[warionumbah2]

He beat some MK that was Drill rushing onstage like a G.

 

[MajorMajora]

I really like sheik, which is kind of why I hope she gets nerfed. That way I can get hyped when she does good.

I also hope they give some slight buffs to grenade alongside the nerfs, if only to get people to use it more often.

 

[Sorichuudo]

I really like sheik, which is kind of why I hope she gets nerfed. That way I can get hyped when she does good.

I also hope they give some slight buffs to grenade alongside the nerfs, if only to get people to use it more often.

I think that instead of nerfing her they should buff who needs to be buffed. But since the dev team seems to prefer te easy aka lazy way to do things...

 

[⑨ball]

no, the only hope is for defeatist attitudes to go away, the game is patched WAY too much.

Well to be fair this series typically drops with tons of absolutely insane things that force the tiers to have huge gaps between them. This is the first game where we're able to adjust toolkits and increase cast wide viability.

 

[ARGHETH]

I think that instead of nerfing her they should buff who needs to be buffed. But since the dev team seems to prefer te easy aka lazy way to do things...

How is nerfing any easier than buffing? Both are literally just changing a few numbers in the code.

 

[MajorMajora]

I don't get how patches ruin the game. The launch game was balanced on play testers, which is not a perfect system. The current patches continue this same process. I have no idea how you could argue that patches make the game worse. Many argue that the meta hasn't developed enough to tell if the patches are needed, but I can use the same logic to say that you can't prove the patches make it worse. At worst, it's a neutral. At best it's a gain.