Hello, I'm new and I haven't been playing melee long, just two months
I started competitive smash with PM but I'm really starting to get into melee.
I've decided to main marth and I made it to finals in my local, problem is I barely beat a falco to get into finals and then lost to a falco in finals.
I have a really hard time against falco, the lasers throw me way off my game.
I feel that this is the most important matchup for me to learn thoroughly given how many good birds there are in my area.
LOSERS FINALS
2:31 Match 1 (Loss) FoD
6:32 Match 2 (Win) Pokemon Stadium
12:57 Match 3 (3-stock Win) Battlefield
15:54 Match 4 (Win) Yoshi's Story
FINALS
0:41 Match 1 (Loss) Battlefield
5:14 Match 2 (Loss) FD
9:54 Match 3 (Win) Pokemon Stadium
13:14 Match 4 (Loss) FD
eager to learn like spongebob
I only watched a little bit, but from what I see:
The Falcos were able to laser and laser and laser -> followup. No punish, no end to the lasers. What I saw you do was very similar to what I see a lot of brawl players do in the face of shield pressure - nothing. (sorry if this sounds harsh). The Falcos you're against seem to have a working assumption that SHL will get them a followup. We need to change this. How? by punishing.
So, how to punish lasers (good, and bad ones): there are a few ways.
1) Powershield. Yeah, not that easy. But valuable. and if you're having trouble, you can also try the Z Powershield. Explained here by Kadano:
http://smashboards.com/threads/official-ask-anyone-frame-things-thread.313889/page-17#post-18512581
Remember, practice makes almost-perfect (at least better), so if you can, ask a friend to laser you, start off practice dash-back/crouch ->Powershield
2) Counter. Ken vs PC Chris? What I see in the falcos you're up against, is that laser approaches - or rather, laser -> grab/hit are inherently good. Not the case at all. They CAN be good. until their ass gets countered. Then they have to start thinking about when they can approach after lasers, baiting - this adds another layer to their game, making it more complicated than the one-track mindset that seems to work. It makes them do the PC Chris "Hot 'n Cold". Counter OoS is good - you can cancel your jump with a counter, so you're always on the ground. Pretty good tech to have - just practice it.
3) Shield Grab. Uhhh. This shouldn't really happen vs good lasers, but hey, everyone messes up. watch your replays again and ask yourself what punishes you could have done vs the lasers.
4) Up B OoS. Ill be honest, I don't think I've ever seen this. But it's about as fast as counter OoS, and is a great shoryuken. Blur also mentions using it vs low nairs in the same way (not really worth it unless you sweetspot them, or at least have a top platform to upb onto). This would be better served the higher percent they are - and because they would be laser - dash/jump in, chances are, NO DI.
5) Easily the most important. Just, good, spacing. keep that 1.5 - 0.5 laser lengths away from Falco. A Laser length, btw, is the distance falco can cover/move and then punish in. So, he's at about a laser length away from Character X, if he can running SHL towards X, and be right in front of X when he touches the ground (which would be just a couple frames after the laser hits).
Back to the point. 1.5 + Laser Length means falco can't punish you. If you're maintaining good coverage, he can't really gain too much positional advantage, and he certainly can't get a grab/hit on you. If you're at 0.5 laser length, it simply means, HE CAN'T LASER. This is huge. It shuts down a big option of his, and although marth may not have the most rapid moves, being "safely" (as in, not in hitstun, etc) 0.5 laser lengths away means you can also hit the Falco if he tries to laser. It gets rid of what is probably his most used option.
6) PPMD always says that take laser -> jab is a great option. Jab is really fast, and gets Falco off of you. I forget who it was, but somebody mentioned dash back -> take laser. Being hit turns you in that direction, so you can actually think of dash back -> take laser as the poor man's pivot jab. Re-position yourself just far enough away from a falco jab/grab, take laser, jab where the falco will land. A great option.
7) These are decent falcos. Obviously. So, they're not going to be blasting max height SHL's all day. But there are instances of high lasers, and you can punish these by dashing under -> dash attack, or dash under -> run cancel -> dtilt. This works because:
You react to a high laser by dash in.
a1) Falco initiates jump to start another SHL
b1) Marth initiates dash attack
c1) If close enough, dash attack hits falco.
I think that if you're close enough, then it doesn't even matter what height the second laser is - I think it might not even come out. This kind of interaction would be at about the 1-1.5 laser length distance. But what if he doesnt try another laser?
a2) Falco expects dash attack, dashes back right after high laser.
a3) Falco expects dash attack, shields right after high laser.
b2) you whiff dash attack, he does stuff that makes you unhappy about life
b2) you react accordingly by wavedash back/dash back, or run cancel -> dtilt (which can then go to dash back, if the situation calls for it) as a spacing coverage option.
b3) you react accordingly by grabbing or gaining a positional advantage on him by closing space.
c2) reset to neutral again.
SO what do we see? If you can't react in time, and he expects it, you get hit. if he doesn't react in time, he gets hit. And reacting so quickly isn't all that easy. Once you dash in, it's up to him to react quickly. It's easier for you to counter-react. Think of this interaction as a kind of - if he's lasering to high, then you have a kind of RPS versus him. But imagine an RPS where you have a slight advantage. Treat it as a pseudo - mixup.
As for dtilt, if you tipper dtilt him, then good. If you tipper dtilt a shield, then you closed some space. But it won't give you the same followups as the dash attack. Dash attack's risk factor depends on how much you do it against high lasers (aka predictability), so it can be high risk -> medium reward, or medium risk -> medium reward. Once again, this risk/reward factor of dash attack, is assuming you're making digital decisions and just saying: "high laser? DASH ATTACK". Because, as I was talking about in the flowchart, you can still react (though i'll admit, it's difficult to in most cases).
Dtilt is pretty universally low risk -> low reward (assuming it's well spaced). And if he's lasering near the edge, this kind of interaction (ending in dtilt) can end up making dtilt a low risk -> medium/high reward option, if it really corners him, or send him off the ledge, respectively.
8) jump over lasers, or use platforms to avoid. Not really that great, marth doesn't like being in the air in neutral (generally). especially vs Falco, who's so good at putting marth in the air. Nevertheless, an option, and if you catch them mindlessly lasering, then you can get in a fair or something of that nature.
Okay, that's pretty much what I can think of for vs lasers.
Other advice I can give (keep in mind I only watched a couple of games):
Gimps. Don't be afraid to kinda camp the side and cheese him. Or to dthrow -> turnaround dtilt (the M2K) to set up cornering and a good frametrap as a tech chase. If he approaches badly near the ledge, it can be the end of his life. Medium risk -> very high reward. Obviously (and I don't need to say this), you don't need to be at the ledge the whole time. Unless you wanna be PM Chudat. Please don't do that to anybody. Please.
You use a lot of Bairs. Not necessarily bad, but sometimes, an uair would have hit. I think that you should just combo CPU falcos for a while and experiment with fair/uair hitboxes so you have a better scope of followups. A lot of moves I see you do have combo potential, but you sometimes just do a small bat-away instead. Again, not necessarily bad, and may sometimes be the best option. But look out for that.
You use a lot of shieldbreaker. Well, not really a lot, but more than most people would think is good. Once I saw you just jump at a guy with it. Kinda weird. I guess if you can make it work, go head, but keep in mind the ending lag. Also, not always the best edgeguard. Speaking of which:
Sometimes the falcos would be in these weird kinda high positions that they're firebirding from. like, a falco full jump height just above the ledge. Something like that. For several of these situations, you started charging shieldbreaker, or a smash. This constrains options, and just tells him to not go where you're charging. It's better to keep it ambiguous as to where you'll place your hitboxes (so he can't easily avoid them), and to keep fluid movement, and keep your options open to punish him wherever. I didn't see some of the strongest edgeguards - I'm sure you know well how to, but try to come up with/develop/steal a good auto-pilot-style, flowchart edgeguarding system. It'll do you a lot of good.
Work on chaingrabs. I saw you drop them a few times. Maybe it's just cause it's tourney set and everyone plays worse during tourney (for all I know, you're '08 M2K with the chaingrabs in friendlies). Whatever the case, keep that in mind.
That's it for now. I think if you work on a more fluid movement game, and a more aggressive dash dance (by this, I mean a dash dance that threatens his space more while staying safe), then you'll have an easier time cornering falcos, and forcing them into making very digital decisions which you can punish. Good luck!
