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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
@Zhao

Work on fast falling all of your aerials (when speed is on the cards). I saw that you missed out on some opportunities to fast fall aerials from full jumps or falling from platforms.

As far as dash dancing is concerned, don't be afraid to dash through your opponent sometimes. If you always dash away, you will get predictable. While you may be able to get away with it against a lesser opponent, someone at your level or above will abuse your retreating tendencies to get huge advantages in neutral.
 
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Wafflesaurus

Smash Cadet
Joined
Sep 23, 2013
Messages
47
NNID
Wafflesaurus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBK01dgEcwA

Would love more critique! still trying to work on implementing a better dashdance and generally stronger neutral game. also going to work on execution; i feel clunky at times, and definitely think my movement and follow-ups are lacking

i've been getting bopped lately, but this is the only video i have. thanks for taking a look!
Game 1
Micro situations

First of all. Why did you go game 1 to Dreamland? Lol whatever floats your boat I guess
You started in a disadvantageous position. You should ask for neutral start if you know that's going to happen. To get out of that situation you decided to do a runoff fair, which can work but it's also one of the most predictable options so keep that in mind.
Your opponent dash dances away from it and tries to catch you with a nair. You could've grabbed him after he missed but you go for a nair which is not bad but it would've been better if it was a nair in place instead of advancing. Great dash dance to make him whiff the grab (although he would've hit if he went for a shine OoS)
You get the grab and immediately pummel. Most people don't really mash out but always be careful when pummeling is your go to option, it's probably better to first throw them ASAP and if you notice they don't mash, next time you can pummel them. You might have already played with that player and know he doesn't pummel but I can't be sure.
Afterwards you drop the chaingrab. That's fine, it can happen to everyone just remember that around that percent you need to dash to regrab if they DI away.
After you miss the regrab, he techs away and you start dash dancing which is good but I feel like you gave him too much space, maybe in fear of losing center stage. Afterwards you get stuck in your movement and the Fox full hop nairs at you. You end up not getting hit but the Fox takes center stage. Luckily he rolls away for unknown reasons and you punish him with an f smash. Some jank happens and both of you get hit. One important thing I noticed from all that is that you got stuck after being hit with a shine. Practice the timing better so it doesn't happen or at least be weary of it. You are also jumping a lot.
at 0:27 you throw him on the platform and go for what looks like the up air to cover all options but you didn't react on time so you decided not to throw the attack. After landing you do a full hop which I really don't understand and just go in front of Fox (landing on platform to grab would have been better in my opinion since Fox looked like he was feeling safe in shield). Fox takes the bait and you back air him and get the edge guard.
The Fox player respawned pretty quickly and almost caught you spamming tech skill. Careful with that.
At 0:41 Fox backairs you offstage and you use your double jump immediately when you didn't even need to. Fox doesn't capitalize on this but he could've just ran at you and shined you for an easy gimp.
A couple of seconds later you stay on shield while fox full hops at you. I noticed you are not tilting your shield which you should absolutely do. It avoids shield pokes and makes your opponent hit you earlier giving you more time to act.
At 0:57 you miss another chain grab when they DI away so it seems like you need to practice it more. Maybe you were scared of your opponent landing on platform so you decided to up tilt him but he honestly was pretty far away from them.
At 1:01 you do the immediate double jump when going offstage again.
At 1:04 Fox baits you to go towards the ledge, dairs you and almost kills you. You need to respect him more or at least go in with an attack that has a better chance of hitting him than an f tilt (like d tilt).
At 1:16 you don't react to him missing the tech on platform. You seem to know that you can cover all his options with an up air but are failing to do so. Practice it more.
The f smash at 1:19 seems like a desperation f smash since Fox is at over 100%. You don't seem to get that desperate when your opponent is at high percent tho, which is a problem with many Marths. You do throw some random f smashes but they're mostly to catch your opponent running away or missed punishes after techs.
No comment on the side bs at 1:35 except pls don't. It also looks like you don't know how to shield drop by how you acted afterwards but I can't confirm that.
Good movement after the Fox respawns. Much better than after taking the first stock.
I don't really get the counter at 1:53 but I hope it was an input error since I saw you use jab to cover the side b before.
You dash danced
At 2:03 you miss the chain grab again when he does away DI. Definitely work on that.
Good recovery at 2:09, you even fooled me.
At 2:24 you miss a JC grab and do a regular grab. I think that's the third one I see you fail in the game so go and practice them for a while.
2:28 charging neutral b was not such a bad idea since fox was really limited but I honestly would've just covered the recovery with regular d tilts and f smashes. You also somehow don't release b on time, probably nerves or something.
At 2:53 you go with a rising up air to get back on stage but Fox was already shielding. I think it would've been better if you at least regrabbed the ledge once since you took a while to let go (it can be quite hard to let go instantly when you grab the ledge for the first time).
Then Fox kills himself lol

Macro
-Work on your up airs on platform, JC grabs, wavedashes (I noticed they weren't as crisp as they could be), chain grabs (especially when Fox does away DI) and fast falling full hop aerials.
-Try to stay more grounded (less advancing nair) and don't get distracted doing tech skill when your opponent is about to respawn.
-Try to dash dance closer to your opponent and through them. You seem to give up space to easily. Running towards your opponent and putting your shield up is also a legit option (and leave your stick towards your opponent when doing this to angle your shield)
-Control your urge to jump when offstage.
-Learn to shield drop and angle your shield.

I think I should start doing these in video form or streaming them lol since they take even longer written and I could go even more in depth and discuss with viewers on stream.
 

Smoom77

Smash Master
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ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
Hey guys, looking for some critique. I was a big Brawl player but I've transitioned to melee the past year or so. Here are some videos from a tournament I was at on Tuesday.

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgVovqfpmj4
2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDcOuznmyms
3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFmMADUh7n8

A few things I know I need to work on is wavedashing out of shield, not Fsmashing so much, and my edgeguard game. But any advice is appreciated! :)
Hey, man. Thanks for posting videos.

Here are a couple of ideas that I have that might help you to speed up your Marth and get the better of more exchanges:

1. Try to jump less. You are relying a lot on aerials, but you should focus on Marth's ground game in the matchup. If you want to jump, you will need to space your aerials better than you are currently. You got punished or put yourself in bad positions a lot of the times when you jumped, I noticed. Use d-tilt on the ground to get your opponent to jump, then catch them with an IASA u-tilt or an uair/fair/bair.

2. Try to be confident with dash dancing in the neutral. I noticed that you rarely used dash dancing to space out your opponent. Instead, you used it to bait out spotdodges and things of that nature. You roll a lot when pressured. Try to use movement to avoid your opponent's attacks. Or put out a hitbox instead (e.g., retreating fair, jab, d-tilt, etc.).

3. Don't land on platforms when coming down from the skies. I noticed you doing a lot of aerials and landing on platforms when your opponent was below you. This is bound to get you hit. Instead, try jumping one way and airdodging the other way, or wavelanding on platforms and fast falling to the ground; your goal should be to get a firm footing and take up your neutral game from there (being above the opponent is a highly disadvantageous position for Marth, so you shouldn't go for greedy aerials coming down unless you are ideally spaced for them).
 

BauxFalcon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
86
Location
New Jersey
To Zhao
Sorry, forgot to press reply.

0:40 - You shouldn't be DD'ing here, get back to center stage/uptilt/delayed uair
1:11 - Do not, please, don't dair when coming down on someone, always do fair or bair/waveland onto platform
1:53 - Marth's edge guards are never read based, always defer to mechanical edgeguards. So, step one would be to get right up to the ledge and jab until you know what they're gonna do, then you counter if they firefox, and fair/ jab if they illusion.
2:08 - Good recovery
2:12 - SDI, work on it as much as possible
2:17 - You're invincible, don't DD, just go in and attack, DD when you're invincibility wears off.
2:26 - Same thing with edge guarding. You see him do firefox, LOOK FIRST, REACT, then counter/ fair here, or if you're feeling ballsy, dair.
2:44 - Your edge guard worked, though it was a bit risky, he could've ledgeteched, or you could've botched it and reset in neutral. What you did only works if you're ballsy enough. However, good on you for using counter.

First game was great, you did a lot of things correct. The only reason you were getting hit was because you were too overwhelmed by Fox's speed and you were DD'ing too far into Fox's range. Besides a few botched edge guards, you had some solid play.

3:36 - Edgeguards on fleek. This was a perfect Marth edgeguard. Though, at 3:40, you could've waited on ledge and done an fsmash or rising neutral b.
4:00 - I'm not too sure what to do here, but I don't think that landing on the platform was a good choice. I would probably wait on the side platform and uair'ed above, land back on the side platforms and wait for reaction. However, I'm not too sure about it, so just ignore this.
5:08 - You go for these random side B's. Only follow up on the side B if you got the first hit.
5:12 - These jab resets are great.
5:19 - What? What was that usmash?
5:33 - This isn't Brawl, rising counter doesn't work.

Overall, great set. You combo well, you space well, and just about everything went fine. Work on DD'ing, SDI, and edge guarding, and you'll be on your way. :)
 
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BauxFalcon

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
86
Location
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Hey guys, looking for some critique. I was a big Brawl player but I've transitioned to melee the past year or so. Here are some videos from a tournament I was at on Tuesday.

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgVovqfpmj4
2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDcOuznmyms
3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFmMADUh7n8

A few things I know I need to work on is wavedashing out of shield, not Fsmashing so much, and my edgeguard game. But any advice is appreciated! :)
Game 1

0:12 - Respect Fox's range and you also missed an l-cancel
0:27 - Marth is a punish heavy character. Don't approach with attacks, make a wall of hitboxes with attacks instead. Approach with aggressive DD'ing to pressure your opponent.
0:38 - What are you doing here :/ Don't run up to your opponent with Marth, DD up to them, and attack on reaction, not intuition, and mix it up with a few wavedashes. An hour or two in the lab will get you up to speed.
0:49 - Do not approach with dash attack. Fair, nair, or just running around work perfectly fine instead.
1:01 - Fsmash is a bit risky, make sure you have Fox in range before attacking. Relying on reads is not good with Marth, he needs proper spacing and excellent zoning (dash dances, platform movement, etc.)
1:15 - Good dolphin slash
1:18 - I can't complain about your fmash there since it worked, but you need to either be a little faster, or substitute for a fair or nair.
1:38 - By this point I realize that this Fox is very camp-and-punish heavy. You need to out camp him and punish any impatient approaches.
1:39 - Your wavedashes need some work, they aren't crispy. You shouldn't be crouching for the majority of your wavedash, you should be standing.
1:43 - No dash attack, pretend Marth doesn't have a dash attack
2:05 - That combo doesn't work, go for uair juggles instead.
2:08 - Good sequence
2:58 and before: Just something to note, Marth controls space with 3 moves that can be cycled through almost interchangeably. Dtilt, fair, or nair are all Marth's spacing tools. Use them to keep Fox out of your area to get him to respect you more, provided that you're being more patient than he is.
3:35 - It would do you some good to work on SDI, not mandatory, but this is like extra credit
3:40 - Uair is never a good option off ledge. Instead, try doing nair, fair, or in some rare situations, counter

4:30 and before - You're doing a much better job of creating a wall of hitboxes and staying a little more patient, but it still isn't enough. Maybe it's because of the small stage? Practice on smaller stages like FoD and Yoshi's to get used to them. Pokemon stadium seems better for your play style because you don't make decisions too fast, so you're much more pressured on smaller stages.
4:34 - Ok, full hop to any aerial becomes extremely easy to defend against, Be sure to stick to the ground or stay as close as possible with Marth.
5:52 - You did the uair again, don't.
6:15 - Nothing much that you could've done there
6:32 - It took some time for me to learn, but keep track of peoples' positions when recovering. When he's that low, it's just on my mental notes to grab ledge at that point. If he were somewhat higher, the counter would've been a good option, provided that you were right up to the edge of the ledge.
6:36 - Either fair or nair is a better option.

8:27 - You're doing a much better job of controlling space here, even more so than poke stadium.
8:30 - Remember, relying on reads is bad with Marth. He's a character that is able to limit options to the point where you don't need to rely on reads.
8:37 - Counter instead
8:50 - Good choice
9:54 - Exactly what the commentator is saying. You probably shouldn't have picked this stage. Battlefield or FD would've been better choices.
10:53 - Every character has a certain range. Example:

This is FD

12345

The numbers represent positions on the stage
Fox's nair range is 2 spaces. So if he's standing on the middle of 1 he can attack to the back end of 3. If you stay just outside of that range, and DD in and out of it, all the while creating a wall of attacks that don't let him pass 3, then you can control where he goes. Marth has low range (the invisible maximum distance one can attack to), but good space (the actual length of an attack, or how big the attack is, etc.) . Marth can only attack 1 space, so the furthest he can attack from 1 is until 2. However, he outSPACES Fox, while Fox outRANGES Marth. Your job is to prevent Fox from using his range to his advantage and create a wall of attacks to limit how far he goes.

12:00 - There really isn't much to complain about behind this point.

13:00 - I'm getting tired and will resume critique later.
 

KaneStaff

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
54
Location
Huntsville, AL
Reference: kane054

Hey, I have run into a wall of sorts with growing as a player, so I would like some help. Thanks a ton for even looking :D

Here's two sets I played in GFs. I didn't play well at all the first set. I couldn't focus. I would love some critiquing on my play, though! I'm Mr. Schlumpsky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3HaDhIR0gU&list=PLIna1lXufKkuwG9Hw8cg9r9WNYFN1f5rA&index=9

Here's another good set I played against a Shiek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VYFw8eGgOI&list=PLIna1lXufKkuwG9Hw8cg9r9WNYFN1f5rA&index=5

Here's the whole tournament: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIna1lXufKkuwG9Hw8cg9r9WNYFN1f5rA

Thanks to everyone! I really appreciate any help.
 
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ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
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Jun 13, 2007
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College Park, MD
Reference: kane054

Hey, I have run into a wall of sorts with growing as a player, so I would like some help. Thanks a ton for even looking :D

Here's two sets I played in GFs. I didn't play well at all the first set. I couldn't focus. I would love some critiquing on my play, though! I'm Mr. Schlumpsky: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3HaDhIR0gU&list=PLIna1lXufKkuwG9Hw8cg9r9WNYFN1f5rA&index=9

Here's another good set I played against a Shiek: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VYFw8eGgOI&list=PLIna1lXufKkuwG9Hw8cg9r9WNYFN1f5rA&index=5

Here's the whole tournament: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIna1lXufKkuwG9Hw8cg9r9WNYFN1f5rA

Thanks to everyone! I really appreciate any help.
To be honest, the best advice that I can give you is to play against a level 1 CPU for about 50-100 hours just to practice tech skill.

I'm not saying that you can't wavedash or l-cancel (you clearly can). But to get the fluidity, the rehearsed understanding of Marth's combo game, edgeguard game, and tech chase game, you absolutely have to work on your foundation. Your movement left much to be desired, simply because you don't even try to use it. In neutral, I saw "wishful" utilts, "randy" f-smashes, and inexplicable SH dairs. You ALWAYS come down with dair when you're hit above your opponent. You need to be a little more cognizant of your opponent's options and respectful of their ability to punish you to be honest.

If you want me to give you a more detailed analysis, I can. But it won't be easy to get past your "wall of sorts" until you improve your control of the character and understanding of Marth's playstyle. Try studying videos of top Marth players (PPMD, Mew2King, PewPewU, The Moon, Dart!, ARC, Fiction, etc.) and emulating them.
 

ChivalRuse

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I'd be more than happy to look at some more of your play. But for the moment, it seems like you're being a bit held back by technical problems. That's why I focused most of my advice on that aspect of your game.
 

KaneStaff

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 21, 2013
Messages
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Huntsville, AL
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'll try to work on that, and I'll post some more videos once I host another Melee tournament! Thanks a bunch.
 

townes

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Memphis, TN
I've never been into this thread, but I've read some of the feedback and it looks super helpful. I went to a regional yesterday and got particularly bopped, so I'm feeling hyper extremely motivated. I lost this set, and would love to hear any feedback any of nice marths could give me as far as stage choices, bad habits, frequent flubs, edgeguards. Anything you can give me, I'll listen. I lose games 2 and 3. Here it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvINbXKe4iY&list=PL3Z01NXawoQfScHn6VQWj0XQ4VcejB5Ax&index=29
 

ChivalRuse

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I've never been into this thread, but I've read some of the feedback and it looks super helpful. I went to a regional yesterday and got particularly bopped, so I'm feeling hyper extremely motivated. I lost this set, and would love to hear any feedback any of nice marths could give me as far as stage choices, bad habits, frequent flubs, edgeguards. Anything you can give me, I'll listen. I lose games 2 and 3. Here it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvINbXKe4iY&list=PL3Z01NXawoQfScHn6VQWj0XQ4VcejB5Ax&index=29
You were doing quite well in game one. What happened?

In game 2 and 3, it seemed like you got desperate and starting throwing out f-smashes too haphazardly. You were also picking pretty poor recovery options and being predictable with your choices coming back from grabbing the ledge to the stage. Try using fake ledgehops to keep your timing ambiguous (by "fake ledgehop", I mean the high ledgehop where you rise up above the level and then regrab the ledge, not the ledge regrab where you drop down and jump back up and regrab the ledge).

You did some risky d-tilts where Sheik had time to jump over them. If you're going to do those, be prepared to dash away or buffer shield after the d-tilt (by holding left/right and shield).

Also, stop doing fairs while moving forward :/ because it increases the window for your opponent to punish your whiff.
 

FE_Hector

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ChivalRuse

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Ref code: Sheik Is Annoying

Just... I really don't care how hard you tear this Marth apart, and yes, there is some PG-13 language. My 15 year old bro and I were playing (I'm 16), but please, I need all the critique you can give me. I don't mind being entirely torn apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tyn1FzEvKqQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=824OUJmAs0s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoUGSjaoDfc
99% of the time you roll you don't even need to. Learn how to move your character. Practice dashing and wavedashing. Learn how to do SHFFLs (short hop, fast fallen, l-cancelled aerials). Grab and throw Sheik up. Crouch cancel her tilts and down-tilt her back. Break your habit of using counter. It will not work against good players, and it barely worked against your brother at all. Watch videos of pro Marth players (PPMD, PewPewU, The Moon) vs Sheik and emulate their play if you can.
 
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FE_Hector

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99% of the time you roll you don't even need to. Learn how to move your character. Practice dashing and wavedashing. Learn how to do SHFFLs (short hop, fast fallen, l-cancelled aerials). Grab and throw Sheik up. Crouch cancel her tilts and down-tilt her back. Break your habit of using counter. It will not work against good players, and it barely worked against your brother at all. Watch videos of pro Marth players (PPMD, PewPewU, The Moon) vs Sheik and emulate their play if you can.
A lot of the cancels and rolls were a matter of expecting him to attack in a way he didn't. I'm good with the counter normally, but am working on moving away from it. Grabbing him is far more difficult than it looks, but I have been getting closer. Besides that... Crouch cancelling?
 

ChivalRuse

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Instead of rolling, use dash dancing to dodge the incoming attack and punish her whiffed move/grab with an attack or your own grab. I understand that at this point in time, it may seem like rolling gives you the most opportunity to punish your opponent for attacking you, but the truth is that it is the most suboptimal way to dodge moves in neutral. Wavedashing or dash dancing are significantly better.

Crouch cancelling (achieved by holding down on the analog stick) is a mechanic that causes you to not get knocked back when you get hit by an attack provided that your percent is below a certain threshold. For example, if Sheik uses a forward-tilt while you are holding down, you will not be knocked back, but will stay in place and have time to counter attack with a grab, f-smash, down-tilt, or whatever you wish. The threshold for crouch cancelling a Sheik's f-tilt is typically below 85%, but it varies from character to character based on weight.
 

FE_Hector

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Instead of rolling, use dash dancing to dodge the incoming attack and punish her whiffed move/grab with an attack or your own grab. I understand that at this point in time, it may seem like rolling gives you the most opportunity to punish your opponent for attacking you, but the truth is that it is the most suboptimal way to dodge moves in neutral. Wavedashing or dash dancing are significantly better.

Crouch cancelling (achieved by holding down on the analog stick) is a mechanic that causes you to not get knocked back when you get hit by an attack provided that your percent is below a certain threshold. For example, if Sheik uses a forward-tilt while you are holding down, you will not be knocked back, but will stay in place and have time to counter attack with a grab, f-smash, down-tilt, or whatever you wish. The threshold for crouch cancelling a Sheik's f-tilt is typically below 85%, but it varies from character to character based on weight.
Thanks a ton, that gives me a lot to think about. I'll work on it. I can wavedash and dash dance, I just didn't see how they'd be used in a typical fight like that. Hopefully our next battle goes better for me.
 

ChivalRuse

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Yeah, no problem. Again, it's good to watch top players and imitate them as this will make it easier for you to visualize what you need to do in practice.
 

FE_Hector

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Yeah, no problem. Again, it's good to watch top players and imitate them as this will make it easier for you to visualize what you need to do in practice.
Yeah, I've watched a lot of pro players, and I'm working on implementation of stuff, it's just tough to figure out sometimes exactly WHY they did what they did, which kinda destroys the purpose of knowing what they did. Anyways, I'll let you all know how the next few battles with my bro go. I'll probably film after we've done several so you can critique me further given my growth.
 

ChivalRuse

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Sounds good! Just remember to focus more on dodging attacks with dashing and wavedashing. And see if you can get the hang of crouch cancelling.
 

FE_Hector

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_1WSRBizWU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlDosmStmPc

Two sets I recently had vs. a Sheik player. Sheik is by far my worst match up, I've reviewed it myself and made some notes on it but would like to hear other players opinions on what i'm doing majorly wrong or where you think my weak points are.

Much appreciated if you take the time to help me out :marthmelee::sheikmelee:
Given that I'm trying to improve my Marth against Sheik, too, I may not be in the best position to critique you. However, here's what I noticed from watching a bit of the first set.

Aerials. Despite her huge knockback advantage over Marth, her range is more limited. Instead of using a side B in midair to fend off a uair, try moving to the side a bit and bair/fair her. Remember that your range is superior, so make sure to use it to your advantage.

Your Dtilting was odd. In spots it was beautiful, whereas it was lacking when you needed it. For example, if you're running at each other, you have 3 options. Jump over her, which is risky and useless without a bair; grab her, which can be exceedingly difficult in that situation; or dtilt. It'll stop your movement and allow you to follow up, if only a little bit.

Remember to shield more often. Right after losing a stock, I know my bro will use a dash attack on me. To stop that, I'll light shield into grab or ftilt in order to start a combo.

Techroll. I saw you successfully tech the ground a few times only to get grabbed again. Try techrolling towards her to throw her off and stop this from happening.

Be more decisive with grabs. I saw one or two grab into up throws that worked great, but also some grab into down or forward throws. In my experience, a back throw is much more effective in this situation as it lets you grab again or move into any number of combos.

Also, I don't know how you were DIing, but it looked plain weird and I'm pretty sure it lost you several stocks prematurely.

Besides that, just make sure you don't fall for as many of those SHFFL nairs. They're tricky, but maybe meet them an instant earlier with a SHFFL fair or nair of your own.
 

ChivalRuse

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College Park, MD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_1WSRBizWU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlDosmStmPc

Two sets I recently had vs. a Sheik player. Sheik is by far my worst match up, I've reviewed it myself and made some notes on it but would like to hear other players opinions on what i'm doing majorly wrong or where you think my weak points are.

Much appreciated if you take the time to help me out :marthmelee::sheikmelee:
Your recoveries got better toward the end of the first set. I think that you realized you can't keep doing side-b's within Sheik's ledgehop / dropoff bair range. Something that you can do to make your recoveries safer is to not continue drifting toward the stage when you are already close enough to grab the ledge with up-b. Just let yourself fall straight down and wait for the right moment to either land on stage or go for edge.

A lot of the hits that you gave up were by going for reads when you could have reacted. Even in neutral a lot of the time you got hit because you weren't focusing on your opponent's movement or jumps.

Be careful when you land with an aerial. It's easy to get antsy and want to protect yourself with a hitbox, but frequently good Sheik players are just setting a trap for you and will grab you for it.
 
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blargh257

Smash Apprentice
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May 20, 2014
Messages
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Norcal
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blargh257
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_1WSRBizWU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlDosmStmPc

Two sets I recently had vs. a Sheik player. Sheik is by far my worst match up, I've reviewed it myself and made some notes on it but would like to hear other players opinions on what i'm doing majorly wrong or where you think my weak points are.

Much appreciated if you take the time to help me out :marthmelee::sheikmelee:
One thing I noticed in the first game of the second link was that Sheik got on a platform a couple times and you couldn't keep yourself safe. Do you think a SHFFL'd up air or better spaced fair would work?
 

Hao

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
335
Location
England // Birmingham
Instead of using a side B in midair to fend off a uair, try moving to the side a bit and bair/fair her. Remember that your range is superior, so make sure to use it to your advantage.
whoops, never thought about just drifting to the side instead haha. Thanks for that

Be more decisive with grabs. I saw one or two grab into up throws that worked great, but also some grab into down or forward throws. In my experience, a back throw is much more effective in this situation as it lets you grab again or move into any number of combos.
Back throw_throw works????? wtfuuuuuck had no idea. I think i went for f-throw/d-throw to get them off stage, or at low% just so they wouldn't just jump out of my up-throw at 0%. Will try it out next time anyway.

Also, I don't know how you were DIing, but it looked plain weird and I'm pretty sure it lost you several stocks prematurely.
My combo DI is super bad, I don't think i successfully combo DI'd a single f-tilt, resulting in him just doing the staple f-tilt_fair.

Besides that, just make sure you don't fall for as many of those SHFFL nairs. They're tricky, but maybe meet them an instant earlier with a SHFFL fair or nair of your own.
I talked to some other people about aerial approaches, not sure why i didn't do this before but all I had to do was DD_grab or run_shieldgrab.

Something that you can do to make your recoveries safer is to not continue drifting toward the stage when you are already close enough to grab the ledge with up-b. Just let yourself fall straight down and wait for the right moment to either land on stage or go for edge.
Makes sense, will also implement this into my game, thanks.

A lot of the hits that you gave up were by going for reads when you could have reacted. Even in neutral a lot of the time you got hit because you weren't focusing on your opponent's movement or jumps.
Agreed, for some reason I just don't do it vs. Sheik aha, vs. every other character I'll focus more so on their movement but yeah, noted, thanks for pointing that out.

Be careful when you land with an aerial. It's easy to get antsy and want to protect yourself with a hitbox, but frequently good Sheik players are just setting a trap for you and will grab you for it.
Noted, thanks again man.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
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Messages
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Raleigh, NC
Alright, so it took a little longer than expected, but I've got my second set against my bro up. We would have done 5 fights, but he got frustrated after the 4th fight. "No. If you didn't realize, I quit." Anyway, here they are. As with last time, tear me up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J_5Q6nlTAk&list=PLu4VZMkd4gK9J0RdMmUx0_srEVZIV-D9c
That should take you to the fights. Just a quick recap

Fight 1: I 3-stocked him
Fight 2: I lost to a fair at the last second
Fight 3: ...Where did that jump go?
Fight 4: Another 3-stock on my part

Here's some of what I have down in my own notes:

1.) How should I handle his needle camping in Battlefield (see fight 3). The one time in Fight 4 that I ran at him and grabbed him out of it worked, but I don't like that option too much. Seems a bit too risky.
2.) How should I handle his aerials better? Especially when he fair/uairs me at the last second, I can sometimes beat him to it, but it's difficult.
3.) Tips for L-canceling? I figure it'll help a lot once I get it done.
4.) What ideas do you have for better recoveries from the edge?

Also, on a slightly different note, what ideas do you have for fighting a pretty good Fox, knowing my Marth skills? I got him down 2 stocks the one time we fought and was proud of it. I'm going to go over Kadano's Perfect Marth class tomorrow, probably, despite how painstaking it'll end up being.
 

FE_Hector

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Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
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Location
Raleigh, NC
Back throw_throw works????? wtfuuuuuck had no idea. I think i went for f-throw/d-throw to get them off stage, or at low% just so they wouldn't just jump out of my up-throw at 0%. Will try it out next time anyway.
Well, it's admittedly difficult to get it into another grab, but it can work for any number of combos, and can grant you some nice stage control. (If she techs the ground, you should be able to follow it up with a dash attack or ftilt if you're quick enough.)

My combo DI is super bad, I don't think i successfully combo DI'd a single f-tilt, resulting in him just doing the staple f-tilt_fair.
You'll wanna improve that DI for sure. Just keep an open mind.
 

Hao

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
335
Location
England // Birmingham
One thing I noticed in the first game of the second link was that Sheik got on a platform a couple times and you couldn't keep yourself safe. Do you think a SHFFL'd up air or better spaced fair would work?
yeah, either one of those would've been a much better choice than what i chose haha. noted, thanks
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Raleigh, NC
Ref: klimno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll8M5-bcKB8

Hi, anyone that may be looking at this post.

This is my first ever set that has been recorded, and I already went through it slowly and picked out a few things I need to work on, but I was wondering if anyone could help me out some more.
Zephix (the guy I'm playing against) is in the top 20 players (in our rating system) of our rather large community. He's a rather aggressive falco, in my experience of playing against him in 2 sets.

P.S. The random f-smashes and part where MT goes "klimno with the mistake" (lol) are mostly nerves from playing on stream and in bracket.
One thing I have to say is, you're gonna have to matter those nerves. Fsmashes in neutral generally aren't a good idea. Anyway, here's what else I saw.

Stop going for the hard reads in the air. If he's coming at you, then you can respond a bit faster with an aerial of your own. If he tries to uair you alter your movement or side B out of the way. If he's offstage, don't assume what he'll do. If you hear/see Firefox (whatever they call it for Falco) , steal the edge. If you hear Phantasm, space him out and punish the vulnerability period.

Careful with counters. If you counter offstage, you will die unless you manage to land on Randall. Try simply getting him with an aerial into Dolphin Slash, or aerial dodge up onto the stage.

Watch those smash moves. Usmashes are hard enough to land already, but against a person? Unless you're M2Ks Sheik, it probably won't work. Tilt or SHFFL uair to keep him above you.

Try shielding more of his attacks, and don't let him kill your shield with shines. If you've got a fraction of a second, grab OoS and follow it up. Crouch cancelling some of his attacks and dtilting in response is also a good idea.

Past that, work on dash dancing to cover his options and generally improve your neutral game.

If you need some ideas, look up Apex 2015 PPMD vs. [A]rmada. They did 2 grand finals sets, with most of the fights being Marth vs. Fox, I believe. Fox and Falco are similar enough that you should get some good ideas.
 

blargh257

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Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
109
Location
Norcal
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blargh257
Ref: klimno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll8M5-bcKB8

Hi, anyone that may be looking at this post.

This is my first ever set that has been recorded, and I already went through it slowly and picked out a few things I need to work on, but I was wondering if anyone could help me out some more.
Zephix (the guy I'm playing against) is in the top 20 players (in our rating system) of our rather large community. He's a rather aggressive falco, in my experience of playing against him in 2 sets.

P.S. The random f-smashes and part where MT goes "klimno with the mistake" (lol) are mostly nerves from playing on stream and in bracket.
3 things:
You're committing too hard a lot with the counters and smashes.
Your punishes aren't really that great.
You appear to have a hard time handling laser pressure. I think the main things you're supposed to do for that are powershield and CC. I would be careful with balancing the two because CC'ing too much will add damage up quickly.
Also, dtilt is good in neutral, and it sets up itself after a CC. Good luck with everything, especially those nerves.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Ref: klimno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll8M5-bcKB8

Hi, anyone that may be looking at this post.

This is my first ever set that has been recorded, and I already went through it slowly and picked out a few things I need to work on, but I was wondering if anyone could help me out some more.
Zephix (the guy I'm playing against) is in the top 20 players (in our rating system) of our rather large community. He's a rather aggressive falco, in my experience of playing against him in 2 sets.

P.S. The random f-smashes and part where MT goes "klimno with the mistake" (lol) are mostly nerves from playing on stream and in bracket.
Another tip I just came up with-- it would be a really good idea to JC grab when he's approaching you under certain circumstances. Just keep an eye open for a grab opportunity, but don't limit yourself to it.

Something I thought I mentioned earlier. If he's gonna keep doing those SHFFL'd aerials, your sword is always longer. Set up an ftilt or utilt to avoid it, or do a SHFFL fair (stationary, then follow up however you can), when you know that they're approaching that way. Anyway, if you SHFFL fair in general, it'll catch her on the ground, too.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Hey, this is was posted a bit earlier, but it might've been lost in the other posts. Feedback would be great, as usual.

Alright, so it took a little longer than expected, but I've got my second set against my bro up. We would have done 5 fights, but he got frustrated after the 4th fight. "No. If you didn't realize, I quit." Anyway, here they are. As with last time, tear me up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J_5Q6nlTAk&list=PLu4VZMkd4gK9J0RdMmUx0_srEVZIV-D9c
That should take you to the fights. Just a quick recap

Fight 1: I 3-stocked him
Fight 2: I lost to a fair at the last second
Fight 3: ...Where did that jump go?
Fight 4: Another 3-stock on my part

Here's some of what I have down in my own notes:

1.) How should I handle his needle camping in Battlefield (see fight 3). The one time in Fight 4 that I ran at him and grabbed him out of it worked, but I don't like that option too much. Seems a bit too risky.
2.) How should I handle his aerials better? Especially when he fair/uairs me at the last second, I can sometimes beat him to it, but it's difficult.
3.) Tips for L-canceling? I figure it'll help a lot once I get it done.
4.) What ideas do you have for better recoveries from the edge?

Also, on a slightly different note, what ideas do you have for fighting a pretty good Fox, knowing my Marth skills? I got him down 2 stocks the one time we fought and was proud of it. I'm going to go over Kadano's Perfect Marth class tomorrow, probably, despite how painstaking it'll end up being.


And I actually did analyze the fight. Here's what I noted:

Standing grab > running grab
Needle camping tips? SH fair/dair missed... The shield -> dashing grab seemed to work
WATCH OUT FOR THE EXPLOSION Either stay out of its range altogether (preferred) or light shield it
Stop rolling and actually attack him when close quarters Grabs count
Handling aerials better?
Lots of messed up short hops
Stop smashing, aim for way more tilts
Move away from counters
L-canceling?
D-tilt when he’s running at me... And in general
Better recovery from edge ideas?
Better timing on tilts
Light shield dash attack -> SH fair/dair Alt: Light shield his dash attack -> grab


I went through Kadano's Perfect Marth class earlier today, and my bro will is up for helping me practice teching and SHFFLing in an infinite time match tomorrow or the day after. I'll probably send another vid with a 2/3 or 3/5 set after we both feel ready in the matchup. Hopefully this Saturday I'll be able to fight the Fox, just with a bit of input lag due to a lack of CRT... whatever, better than nothing.
 
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AudioSilver

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Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
262
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Out of Nowhere
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3797-7513-8784
Hey, this is was posted a bit earlier, but it might've been lost in the other posts. Feedback would be great, as usual.

Alright, so it took a little longer than expected, but I've got my second set against my bro up. We would have done 5 fights, but he got frustrated after the 4th fight. "No. If you didn't realize, I quit." Anyway, here they are. As with last time, tear me up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2J_5Q6nlTAk&list=PLu4VZMkd4gK9J0RdMmUx0_srEVZIV-D9c
That should take you to the fights. Just a quick recap

Fight 1: I 3-stocked him
Fight 2: I lost to a fair at the last second
Fight 3: ...Where did that jump go?
Fight 4: Another 3-stock on my part

Here's some of what I have down in my own notes:

1.) How should I handle his needle camping in Battlefield (see fight 3). The one time in Fight 4 that I ran at him and grabbed him out of it worked, but I don't like that option too much. Seems a bit too risky.
2.) How should I handle his aerials better? Especially when he fair/uairs me at the last second, I can sometimes beat him to it, but it's difficult.
3.) Tips for L-canceling? I figure it'll help a lot once I get it done.
4.) What ideas do you have for better recoveries from the edge?

Also, on a slightly different note, what ideas do you have for fighting a pretty good Fox, knowing my Marth skills? I got him down 2 stocks the one time we fought and was proud of it. I'm going to go over Kadano's Perfect Marth class tomorrow, probably, despite how painstaking it'll end up being.


And I actually did analyze the fight. Here's what I noted:

Standing grab > running grab
Needle camping tips? SH fair/dair missed... The shield -> dashing grab seemed to work
WATCH OUT FOR THE EXPLOSION Either stay out of its range altogether (preferred) or light shield it
Stop rolling and actually attack him when close quarters Grabs count
Handling aerials better?
Lots of messed up short hops
Stop smashing, aim for way more tilts
Move away from counters
L-canceling?
D-tilt when he’s running at me... And in general
Better recovery from edge ideas?
Better timing on tilts
Light shield dash attack -> SH fair/dair Alt: Light shield his dash attack -> grab


I went through Kadano's Perfect Marth class earlier today, and my bro will is up for helping me practice teching and SHFFLing in an infinite time match tomorrow or the day after. I'll probably send another vid with a 2/3 or 3/5 set after we both feel ready in the matchup. Hopefully this Saturday I'll be able to fight the Fox, just with a bit of input lag due to a lack of CRT... whatever, better than nothing.
Something that I learned from Brawl was, Marth's Down Tilt is an effective pressure weapon.

(I'm going to finish watching as soon as I can.)
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
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Location
Raleigh, NC
Something that I learned from Brawl was, Marth's Down Tilt is an effective pressure weapon.

(I'm going to finish watching as soon as I can.)
Yeah, dtilting, both just in neutral and out of dash, are things I'm working on. There are a lot of things like that... Sorta like wavedashing. I can do it, but at the same time it's tough in the heat of the fray. Still, that's a use for the infinite time match against my brother. I'll get it down, though
 

AudioSilver

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
262
Location
Out of Nowhere
3DS FC
3797-7513-8784
Yeah, dtilting, both just in neutral and out of dash, are things I'm working on. There are a lot of things like that... Sorta like wavedashing. I can do it, but at the same time it's tough in the heat of the fray. Still, that's a use for the infinite time match against my brother. I'll get it down, though
Good luck with that also! I just finished watching the video. Overall, not a bad start.

I used to play Project M every day practicing Wavedashing. I had trouble to start with. I've been Wavedahing smoothly for about a year now.

(Since I started in competitive Brawl.)
 
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