Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[The Young Izzy Iz]

You like to go for a lot of rising fairs. This is useful, but really only on stages with platforms or if you're retreating out of shield. On FD if you're going to throw out an aerial that isn't short-hop double fair you're going to want to SHFFL it (Short-hop Fast Fall L-Cancel) and depending on the opponent's DI and percentage F-Smash (useful for spacies) or follow-up JC grab.

Speaking of grabs, part of getting better at the game is learning good fundamentals. Learning how to jump cancel your grabs and doing that consistently will really speed up your game and allow you to follow-up at a greater distance.

3.) Tips for L-canceling? I figure it'll help a lot once I get it done.

This really also goes with the fundamentals. Learning how to L-Cancel for most people is just a matter of grinding out tech-skill and learning the physics of the game. It all depends on the fall speed of the character and whether or not you're fast falling them. Getting down this fundamental for Marth is going to make it easy to transfer the skill to other characters. Once you have L-Canceling down you should basically be able to do it regardless of character or aerial without messing up.

One of the positive things I noticed earlier on was your very good conversions of things like dash-attack and up-tilt into kill moves such as F-Smash. Keep doing this! A lot of people when they start out focus on just wracking up as much damage as possible. Melee is about stage control. It doesn't matter how or at what percent just get your opponent off-stage and edge guard! It puts you in a position where you're essentially in control of the game flow and they're forced to deal with whatever option you choose from the ledge.

Stop countering. You're investment into this move is way, way more than any conceivable gains. Unless you have a read on exactly what your opponent is going to do I'd say stuff this move. Even then, if it lands, you're really not going to get anything off of it unless your opponent does some really, really crazy stuff with their DI/SDI/Missed Tech/etc.

At around 1:24 you double raw F-Smashed without using the C-stick. Don't. Unless you have a read F-Smash is punishable outside of combo enders. Doubly so if you aren't c-sticking your smash attacks. Using the C-stick means the attack is going to come out at least 3 or so frames faster than if you control-stick it. Control smashing can also be difficult to do out of a wavedash if you're using that to ensure proper spacing (probably not a concern right now).

At 1:35 you went off the edge and burned your jump almost immediately. Then you got punished for it. Instead of jumping out of hit-stun trying wiggling out with an aerial, gives you a lot more options during your recovery.

Game 2 you used a ton of charged F-Smashes. This is bad, very bad, see above for my reasoning.

This game you did a lot of rolling, this is something usually seen with a lot of less experienced players. The key to rolling is making sure you don't get punished, because rolls don't have invincibility on start-up or end they can leave you vulnerable to an opponent that's ready to chase them. This is really important in the Shiek match-up in particular because her dash attack is such a great chasing tool.

Game 3 started with a lot of probing jabs. Usually if you're in a situation with Marth where a jab would be optimal (exceptions below) it's better to go with the first hit of dancing blade. It comes out frame 6 which is decent, can be executed out a dash dance (key!), can be easily converted into more useful moves like side-b to utilt on floaties (samus/peach good). Exceptions are edge-guarding spacies up-b'ing from below and a few other circumstantials.

Your opponent used a lot of unsafe dash attacks. In a lot of situations where you rolled to avoid the dash attack it would have been optimal to simply shield into shield-grab. If you look at the hitboxes for Shiek's dash attack they're actually in her torso/lower abdomen instead of her hands and head where you might expect, giving it a lot less range. You really want to make sure you research things like frame-data and hitboxes for your character and whatever characters are good against you. Knowing whether or not you're fast enough to beat a trade or if a certain aerial and out space a ground option against your opponent can make tough match-ups easier to cope with.

At 1:20-1:25 you got u-air juggled and didn't seem to be doing much in the way of DI. Sometimes if you side-b in the air the momentum shift can throw off the opponent, although it's unlikely. Maybe try this once every 2-3 games, using it sparingly enough that when you do the opponent isn't able to read it and it comes out of the blue.

You really need to get your fundamentals down: Short hop, Fast fall, L-cancel, SHFFL, Jump cancel'd grab, Dash dance, Wavedash. All of these skills are required to play the game at a competitive level and every character uses them. Even if you decided to pick up a secondary or switch your main later you're going to have to know how to do all of this stuff. Practice, practice, practice tech skill. At the level you're at this is the fastest way to improve and get better. Once you reach a higher level of play things like learning how to read your opponent and reacting to/inputting optimal combo strings will become more important.

Lastly, sorry if this thing is a massive wall of text. You aren't doing bad, you just need to get your fundamentals down and stop countering. Let me know if you have any questions on anything I said. Being a newbie myself I'm sure that if there's anything wrong in here one of the more veteran posters will let me know. x][/quote]

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Ref: klimno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll8M5-bcKB8

Hi, anyone that may be looking at this post.

This is my first ever set that has been recorded, and I already went through it slowly and picked out a few things I need to work on, but I was wondering if anyone could help me out some more.
Zephix (the guy I'm playing against) is in the top 20 players (in our rating system) of our rather large community. He's a rather aggressive falco, in my experience of playing against him in 2 sets.

P.S. The random f-smashes and part where MT goes "klimno with the mistake" (lol) are mostly nerves from playing on stream and in bracket.

If you're in neutral and the Falco isn't lasering you to death you need to dash dance more. If Falco misses the dair and you space well you should be able to get the jump-cancel'd grab no problem. Watch out for their nair to shine to jc-grab combo as well. The range for spacies opening dash into nair is surprisingly long (1/6-1/4 the distance of FD). It's a good option for them if they can force you to shield.

Video in regards to spacies nair distance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw

 

[FE_Hector]

You like to go for a lot of rising fairs. This is useful, but really only on stages with platforms or if you're retreating out of shield. On FD if you're going to throw out an aerial that isn't short-hop double fair you're going to want to SHFFL it (Short-hop Fast Fall L-Cancel) and depending on the opponent's DI and percentage F-Smash (useful for spacies) or follow-up JC grab.

I noticed that I was doing a lot of fairs. Part of the goal was to force him into a roll where I could punish, but I kept getting greedy and either using the fair, or using the bair too early.

Speaking of grabs, part of getting better at the game is learning good fundamentals. Learning how to jump cancel your grabs and doing that consistently will really speed up your game and allow you to follow-up at a greater distance.

I went through Kadano's Perfect Marth Class yesterday and learned about JC grabs. They're exceedingly useful and I've been using them in practice recently.

This really also goes with the fundamentals. Learning how to L-Cancel for most people is just a matter of grinding out tech-skill and learning the physics of the game. It all depends on the fall speed of the character and whether or not you're fast falling them. Getting down this fundamental for Marth is going to make it easy to transfer the skill to other characters. Once you have L-Canceling down you should basically be able to do it regardless of character or aerial without messing up.

I figured out my L-cancels yesterday. I had thought that you had to press it before you hit the ground, but, at least for me, it's way easier to do it the instant my character lands, so that's another piece of the puzzle fallen into place.

One of the positive things I noticed earlier on was your very good conversions of things like dash-attack and up-tilt into kill moves such as F-Smash. Keep doing this! A lot of people when they start out focus on just wracking up as much damage as possible. Melee is about stage control. It doesn't matter how or at what percent just get your opponent off-stage and edge guard! It puts you in a position where you're essentially in control of the game flow and they're forced to deal with whatever option you choose from the ledge.

Yeah, that's something that I'd noticed, too. If I avoid giving him room to breathe, it's super easy to follow up on most of my attacks and get him off the edge early.

Stop countering. You're investment into this move is way, way more than any conceivable gains. Unless you have a read on exactly what your opponent is going to do I'd say stuff this move. Even then, if it lands, you're really not going to get anything off of it unless your opponent does some really, really crazy stuff with their DI/SDI/Missed Tech/etc.

I know that the only useful situations for my counters were when he was too close for me to avoid an aerial so I just did that to give myself room to breathe. I spent far too much time fighting lvl9 CPUs before being told about the bad habits they teach players. Random Fsmashes in neutral and counters are the main 2 things I'm moving away from. I can use the dash attack situationally, but I'm working on getting more dash -> wavedash back -> SHFFL uairs to start combos when he uses a predictable jump. That or dash -> JC grab to throw him off.

At around 1:24 you double raw F-Smashed without using the C-stick. Don't. Unless you have a read F-Smash is punishable outside of combo enders. Doubly so if you aren't c-sticking your smash attacks. Using the C-stick means the attack is going to come out at least 3 or so frames faster than if you control-stick it. Control smashing can also be difficult to do out of a wavedash if you're using that to ensure proper spacing (probably not a concern right now).

Thanks for the info on C-sticking smash attacks. I didn't realize they came out faster. Honestly, the I can't even guess what was going through my mind.

At 1:35 you went off the edge and burned your jump almost immediately. Then you got punished for it. Instead of jumping out of hit-stun trying wiggling out with an aerial, gives you a lot more options during your recovery.

I didn't actually get punished for it. In fact, the use of the jump prevented me from getting punished. However, I understand what you're saying.

Game 2 you used a ton of charged F-Smashes. This is bad, very bad, see above for my reasoning.

This game you did a lot of rolling, this is something usually seen with a lot of less experienced players. The key to rolling is making sure you don't get punished, because rolls don't have invincibility on start-up or end they can leave you vulnerable to an opponent that's ready to chase them. This is really important in the Shiek match-up in particular because her dash attack is such a great chasing tool.

Yeah... rolls are another bad habit from lvl9 CPUs. I've been trying to stop doing them as much, but practice makes perfect. If you wanna see how far I've come away from them... I posted some videos earlier on page 75 in this thread. Don't critique them, it was ugly.

Game 3 started with a lot of probing jabs. Usually if you're in a situation with Marth where a jab would be optimal (exceptions below) it's better to go with the first hit of dancing blade. It comes out frame 6 which is decent, can be executed out a dash dance (key!), can be easily converted into more useful moves like side-b to utilt on floaties (samus/peach good). Exceptions are edge-guarding spacies up-b'ing from below and a few other circumstantials.

The jabs were, a lot of the time, accidental. I meant to ftilt him a lot of the time because of its additional reach and the fact that it forces him back. I'm not too partial to just hitting with the first hit of Dancing Blade because it has almost zero hitstun.

Your opponent used a lot of unsafe dash attacks. In a lot of situations where you rolled to avoid the dash attack it would have been optimal to simply shield into shield-grab. If you look at the hitboxes for Shiek's dash attack they're actually in her torso/lower abdomen instead of her hands and head where you might expect, giving it a lot less range. You really want to make sure you research things like frame-data and hitboxes for your character and whatever characters are good against you. Knowing whether or not you're fast enough to beat a trade or if a certain aerial and out space a ground option against your opponent can make tough match-ups easier to cope with.

Yeah, a lot of my problem there comes from the fact that he used to use Samus, so I grew to fear the dash attack, which has a lot of strength on her shoulder. I think I had noted that light shielding -> grab -> whatever I wanted worked well against that.

At 1:20-1:25 you got u-air juggled and didn't seem to be doing much in the way of DI. Sometimes if you side-b in the air the momentum shift can throw off the opponent, although it's unlikely. Maybe try this once every 2-3 games, using it sparingly enough that when you do the opponent isn't able to read it and it comes out of the blue.

Looking at that, I think that was one of the situations where I was testing my timing. Part of what I've been working on to help keep myself from getting juggled is letting my opponents think they have the juggle, then fair/bair/dairing them depending on the situation to give myself the advantage. I know about the side-b to avoid it. Part of the reason for that risky move was that it's just friendlies, but I figure it can benefit me a lot once I get it down.

You really need to get your fundamentals down: Short hop, Fast fall, L-cancel, SHFFL, Jump cancel'd grab, Dash dance, Wavedash. All of these skills are required to play the game at a competitive level and every character uses them. Even if you decided to pick up a secondary or switch your main later you're going to have to know how to do all of this stuff. Practice, practice, practice tech skill. At the level you're at this is the fastest way to improve and get better. Once you reach a higher level of play things like learning how to read your opponent and reacting to/inputting optimal combo strings will become more important.

Yeah, I noted that I had a lot of missed short hops. Short hop fairs can be a bit difficult, but I've been working on doing it properly. Fast falling I can do (but kept not thinking about it.) L-canceling I addressed earlier. SHFFLing is underway. I'm working on doing it consistently, but it's more difficult for me when I'm dashing because of exactly how the button input needs to change. Wavedashing I've been able to do for a little while now, the problem is just that I wasn't confident in doing it in the heat of the fray. I kept screwing up right where it got me punished. Still, I'm way more confident in it now. Teching is also something I've been working on.


Besides that, my bro said that he'd do an infinite time match with me... it'll be today or tomorrow. When we do that, I'll work a lot more on actually using these skills in battle, and I'll also get him to improve some of his Sheik fundamentals for the benefit of us both. (He needs to learn to Shino Stall, SHFFL (all parts), go for safer combos, etc.)
Thanks a ton, though. I'll be working on a lot of that later today in an infinite time match with a dummy controller plugged in.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Wavedashing I've been able to do for a little while now, the problem is just that I wasn't confident in doing it in the heat of the fray. I kept screwing up right where it got me punished.

Learning to wavedash and learning to wavedash in match are completely different. I remember when I started using it in match I'd always flub the input, going a little too fast, and end up full-jump air dodging. (lol) Just keep up the good work and best of luck.

 

[FE_Hector]

Learning to wavedash and learning to wavedash in match are completely different. I remember when I started using it in match I'd always flub the input, going a little too fast, and end up full-jump air dodging. (lol) Just keep up the good work and best of luck.

Full jump air dodge... Never had that happen. Lol, thanks.

 

[circuspig]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnLHWilRH58

Here you go. 3 games with a good buddy of mine. Neither of us are that good really. I'm Marth of course.

I am so, so so sorry for the terrible quality. I watched over it a few times and I could still tell what was happening, but I'll try to make a new video upon request if it's really that bad for you. Youtube also decided to use it's shake detection on my video and mess with it even more, but the upside is that the tv screen is never really messed with and you can still see the fighting.

Neither of us strategically picked stages, but we did pick tournie-approved ones.

In the video I notice that I use Fsmash too much. I've heard that this is a common issue. You will also see me use Usmash a lot, usually if the opponent isn't directly above me, the Usmash is an accident and is meant to be a Fsmash.

I don't LCancel. I know how to do it and I've done it with multiple characters, including SHFFLs and wavedashes. I have a hard time applying tech into the actual match, I feel like it will come with more playtime. I just need to try.

Almost every time I use my shield, it is to shield grab. I think my friend does not know about Shield Grabbing and falls for it almost every time. To add onto this, about halfway through I discovered fthrow -> fsmash and started using that in the later games, if I remember correctly.

I'm pretty certain I do not utilt a single time in this video. I feel like I would be better replacing usmash with utilt, but I have problems doing utilt moves in the heat of a battle.

If I remember correctly I used the counter move a couple times, these are mistakes.

I need to work on recovery.

That's all I can really think of for now, I hope someone gets back to me.

 

[FE_Hector]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnLHWilRH58

Here you go. 3 games with a good buddy of mine. Neither of us are that good really. I'm Marth of course.

I am so, so so sorry for the terrible quality. I watched over it a few times and I could still tell what was happening, but I'll try to make a new video upon request if it's really that bad for you. Youtube also decided to use it's shake detection on my video and mess with it even more, but the upside is that the tv screen is never really messed with and you can still see the fighting.

Neither of us strategically picked stages, but we did pick tournie-approved ones.

In the video I notice that I use Fsmash too much. I've heard that this is a common issue. You will also see me use Usmash a lot, usually if the opponent isn't directly above me, the Usmash is an accident and is meant to be a Fsmash.

I don't LCancel. I know how to do it and I've done it with multiple characters, including SHFFLs and wavedashes. I have a hard time applying tech into the actual match, I feel like it will come with more playtime. I just need to try.

Almost every time I use my shield, it is to shield grab. I think my friend does not know about Shield Grabbing and falls for it almost every time. To add onto this, about halfway through I discovered fthrow -> fsmash and started using that in the later games, if I remember correctly.

I'm pretty certain I do not utilt a single time in this video. I feel like I would be better replacing usmash with utilt, but I have problems doing utilt moves in the heat of a battle.

If I remember correctly I used the counter move a couple times, these are mistakes.

I need to work on recovery.

That's all I can really think of for now, I hope someone gets back to me.

As far as the quality goes, try finding something that you can mount it on, and if YouTube offers to fix the shaking, always deny it.

For getting away from Fsmashing, try to replace it with more Ftilts or Utilts, SHFFLs (or at least SH fairs), dash -> JC grab, Dash Canceled Dtilt, etc. It's just a matter of changing your mindset.

Be more mobile. A highly mobile Marth is way tougher to hit, so take advantage of it. Be sure to make good use of dashing for approaches.

Your buddy loves to use his laser, but never places it differently, so just SH over it, but follow up with a fair. You can attack way faster after fairing than dairing, so keep that in mind.

Your recoveries are really poor. Don't try to land on the edge if you're going to use the Dolphin Slash as a part of your recoveries. Watch some pro videos and get a feel for the placement (or approximate placement) of the sweet spotted Dolphin Slash. If you land on the stage after using it, you're in a super open position, so you've gotta be careful with it. You're correct in using the first hit of Dancing Blade to extend your horizontal recovery, but don't use it if you're so 1) high or 2) close to the edge anyway.

Your edgeguards aren't very good, either. If you're going to stand at the edge and charge an Fsmash or Shield Breaker, it's really obvious. If he's going to grab the ledge, wavedash back onto the ledge first and then roll up because it lets you stay on way longer. If he's going to use Firebird, you can either jump out and fair/dair him to stop it, or you could wait for him to get over the ledge before following it up. You give him a lot of options, though.

You tend to jump way above him a lot and not follow up too well. Against any good S-Tier character, a well-placed Uair would completely wreck that. Another use for SH aerials.

Never counterpick DreamLand 64 against Fox or Falco. Marth has a lot of trouble following up on that stage, and it's a pain in the butt to land a Utilt if they're on the lower platforms. The space animals have a lot of their beloved room to move around and just fight in general, it's super difficult for Marth to win that matchup in that stage.

Fastfalling is really, really crucial in order for a semi-floaty like Marth. Make sure not to press down too early. Press down as soon as you hit the crest of your jump.

Remember that Marth's sword is longer than any other attack in the game (even Puff's absolutely ridiculous bair). If your opponent's coming at you as you're being wobbled, use an aerial of your own to take out your opponent as he attempts to follow up.

Overall, both you and your opponent need to work on speeding up your gameplay a lot. My biggest suggestion is to watch a lot of pro videos and work on speeding up in general.

As a general rule, never fight against lvl9 CPUs. M2K wrote articles on this that I don't feel like digging up, but the gist of it is that they have inhuman DI, a number of 1-frame reactions, and fall for ridiculous tactics. There're a ton of other things to know past that, but until you work on speed, DI, reaction timing, control, etc., then you can advance a lot more. If you want to get an idea of what a very meh Marth looks like, look through this forum for my the battles I posted. I will not boast any level of skill at all, but I'm working on getting tournament ready.

 

[circuspig]

Snip.

Thank you so much for replying! I don't really have much to respond with, lol. I definitely agree with everything you said about my playing, and I will check out your videos. I'll try to make a follow up video in maybe a week or so.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Literally all you have to do if you want to four-stock this guy consistently is dash-dance. He's so f-smash happy with his Falco that he seems the type to jump at just about every dash-dance bait, even if you space poorly. Dash-dance -> JC Grab -> Obliteration method of your choice, I usually go for utilts into up-air strings. Standing lasers are notoriously easy to punish if you jump the first one (could even be your full jump instead of short-hop) especially if you land behind him and F-smash in his direction. Because you're behind him the lag from his laser won't allow him to get out a hitbox fast enough and you can basically do whatever. If he shields and your behind him, all the better.

Edit: He never techs so so jab-reset -> F-smash is going to be your best friend forever.

 

[circuspig]

Literally all you have to do if you want to four-stock this guy consistently is dash-dance. He's so f-smash happy with his Falco that he seems the type to jump at just about every dash-dance bait, even if you space poorly. Dash-dance -> JC Grab -> Obliteration method of your choice, I usually go for utilts into up-air strings. Standing lasers are notoriously easy to punish if you jump the first one (could even be your full jump instead of short-hop) especially if you land behind him and F-smash in his direction. Because you're behind him the lag from his laser won't allow him to get out a hitbox fast enough and you can basically do whatever. If he shields and your behind him, all the better.

Edit: He never techs so so jab-reset -> F-smash is going to be your best friend forever.

Solid advice. I just don't want to build bad habits by constantly ripping on someone that plays semi-casually (talking about the jab-reset fsmash, I'm assuming that I wouldn't get far using that with experienced players)
However, I have been told that there is still room to improve until I'm consistently 4-stocking my opponent, so thoughts noted.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Solid advice. I just don't want to build bad habits by constantly ripping on someone that plays semi-casually (talking about the jab-reset fsmash, I'm assuming that I wouldn't get far using that with experienced players)
However, I have been told that there is still room to improve until I'm consistently 4-stocking my opponent, so thoughts noted.

Jab-reset is a great skill that works even against higher level opponents assuming they make a mistake. Even pros like M2K and Mango miss techs once every blue-moon. Having the skill in the bag of tricks means that when it happens against an experienced player your punish is going to be all the more demoralizing. I'm sure you know this but given the right percent jab-reset into F-Smash is basically a guaranteed kill, especially against characters like Falco who have questionable recovery options.

 

[AudioSilver]

Something that was and is helpful to me even now, was Mew2king's analysis video of Scar vs. Crimson Blur.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-yCMjBfq61U

So if anyone has 50 minutes to spare, I would definitely recommend this video. (If you haven't watched it yet.)

 

[FE_Hector]

Thank you so much for replying! I don't really have much to respond with, lol. I definitely agree with everything you said about my playing, and I will check out your videos. I'll try to make a follow up video in maybe a week or so.

It's no problem. Just remember that my Marth has a lot of training left. Look at the feedback people gave me so you don't fall into some habits I have. Otherwise, remember that there's not exactly a "right" way to use Marth. Mines sorta unorthodox, but somebody's like M2K or PPMDs Marth are a bit more normal. They're just so fast and so good that they just win. Watching the pros is a great idea, but my videos may help if professional play seems too fast.

 

[AudioSilver]

I would love to post a video for reference on my Marth, except the only videos I have are Brawl replays.

(They are cool though!)

In many of them I instantly Ken Combo 0-Death my opponent at the start.

 

[FE_Hector]

I would love to post a video for reference on my Marth, except the only video I have is Brawl replays.

(They are cool though!)

In one of them I instantly Ken Combo 0-Death my opponent at the start.

(Actually in many of them...)

This is something that, in my opinion, most Marth's should aim for given the (safe) opportunity. Not necessarily a Ken Combo, but a 0-death combo ending in a spike. I've had a few times where I can ftilt -> utilt -> SH dair for a 0-death KO. Sometimes I can skip the ftilt, but that into a dair KO is lethal against a Sheik when the spike leaves her at 29%. Super easy KO and gives you an excellent lead.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

I would love to post a video for reference on my Marth, except the only videos I have are Brawl replays.

(They are cool though!)

In many of them I instantly Ken Combo 0-Death my opponent at the start.

It's actually kind of funny because in games against players who don't play brawl competitively Marth can sometimes be just as strong/stronger pick than Meta-knight. Because of the slower engine you have basically all day to space your aerials and as long as they don't camp you DI funny your conversions are basically guaranteed.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

This is something that, in my opinion, most Marth's should aim for given the (safe) opportunity. Not necessarily a Ken Combo, but a 0-death combo ending in a spike. I've had a few times where I can ftilt -> utilt -> SH dair for a 0-death KO. Sometimes I can skip the ftilt, but that into a dair KO is lethal against a Sheik when the spike leaves her at 29%. Super easy KO and gives you an excellent lead.

Speaking of spikes you can always go with the M2K special: ledge-grab into ledge-hop downair as they recover.

 

[AudioSilver]

Speaking of spikes you can always go with the M2K special: ledge-grab into ledge-hop downair as they recover.

I use that Spike on Fox and Falco all the time.

 

[AudioSilver]

I also dash of the edge then jump into a D-Air often. (So I land back on the stage.)

 

[FE_Hector]

Ah, I love the Marth kill options

 

[circuspig]

I feel like I just have trouble controlling my character. Like I feel like I can't get around quick enough I guess, and I've seen Marth so much faster before. He's almost always able to land his fsmashes and when he starts spamming lasers, I'll try shorthopping over him but he's able to stop before I can do anything.

Also he uses Up-B offensively.

 

[AudioSilver]

I feel like I just have trouble controlling my character. Like I feel like I can't get around quick enough I guess, and I've seen Marth so much faster before. He's almost always able to land his fsmashes and when he starts spamming lasers, I'll try shorthopping over him but he's able to stop before I can do anything.

Also he uses Up-B offensively.

I'm not sure how you can solve this. The only advice I could give to become faster is to L-Cancel everything, Dash Dance frequently, and to only be where you need to be.

(As in don't dash somewhere, unless it's a good place to be.)

I hope this helps, even a little bit.

 

[FE_Hector]

I feel like I just have trouble controlling my character. Like I feel like I can't get around quick enough I guess, and I've seen Marth so much faster before. He's almost always able to land his fsmashes and when he starts spamming lasers, I'll try shorthopping over him but he's able to stop before I can do anything.

Also he uses Up-B offensively.

To handle offensive firebirds, just move. Wait for him to land and punish. Sometimes you can't avoid it, but that's rare. Other than that, maybe just slowly try to speed up your Marth. Don't try wavedashing if you're not comfortable, but dash and use aerials more at the very least. You should feel your Marth speed up as you do this. Note, however, that any smash attacks and the dash attack is easily punished if you miss.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

I feel like I just have trouble controlling my character. Like I feel like I can't get around quick enough I guess, and I've seen Marth so much faster before. He's almost always able to land his fsmashes and when he starts spamming lasers, I'll try shorthopping over him but he's able to stop before I can do anything.

Also he uses Up-B offensively.

He seems faster because of wavedashing and wavelanding. The character himself isn't so much moving faster as much as he's always in motion/changing direction more rapidly giving the illusion of faster play. To illustrate I'll give an example: Say regular Marth player decides he wants to grab. He runs up and attempts to JC grab. That's one way of going about things directly and too the point. Alright, now here's the advanced player. Dash-dance bait into forward wavedashing opening dash animation JC grab. The second character is going to look a lot faster because he's doing more in roughly the same amount of time and unlike the previous example where all the animations work as designed aka they look fluid the second example looks extremely choppy/erratic because the character is moving, skipping frames, doing things that don't naturally link together.

A second part of it is (without going into major specifics of how your brain works) patterns. When you see something in life your brain automatically attempts to categorize and analyze it and how it fits into the background. To do this it uses context clues like shadows, fluidity of motion, etc. A lot of advanced techniques like dashdancing are just visually confusing because they break most of the clues your brains has about movement/physics in everyday life. 5 years of playing melee and learning its physics doesn't break 2k years of evolution learning real world physics and if in doubt your brain reverts to the basics it knows. So, if we look at the visually confusing motions of the advanced player its easier for your brain to simply look at the end result without consciously trying to process the physics of every erratic motion. Obviously if you're actually focused on what the character is doing aka watching a replay and examining things seem different / slower than seeing the actions in the middle of the match. This is because your brain has time to slow down and focus solely and consciously on what that character is doing and has the time to bring in outside knowledge (aka your knowledge of melee physics) to bear more easily.

I know that's a super long explanation but basically: your brain looks for context clues, those context clues aren't there, it makes some short logical assumptions, those assumptions fill in gaps with the least possible information making choppy advanced play look faster.

EDIT:

Also, and I could be totally wrong about this, I believe the opening dash for Marth comes out in less frames than his usual dash. Abusing the opening dash in conjunction with other things like wavedash before normal dash animation means the character is, in fact, moving faster. It's called fox-trotting.

 

[AudioSilver]

He seems faster because of wavedashing and wavelanding. The character himself isn't so much moving faster as much as he's always in motion/changing direction more rapidly giving the illusion of faster play. To illustrate I'll give an example: Say regular Marth player decides he wants to grab. He runs up and attempts to JC grab. That's one way of going about things directly and too the point. Alright, now here's the advanced player. Dash-dance bait into forward wavedashing opening dash animation JC grab. The second character is going to look a lot faster because he's doing more in roughly the same amount of time and unlike the previous example where all the animations work as designed aka they look fluid the second example looks extremely choppy/erratic because the character is moving, skipping frames, doing things that don't naturally link together.

A second part of it is (without going into major specifics of how your brain works) patterns. When you see something in life your brain automatically attempts to categorize and analyze it and how it fits into the background. To do this it uses context clues like shadows, fluidity of motion, etc. A lot of advanced techniques like dashdancing are just visually confusing because they break most of the clues your brains has about movement/physics in everyday life. 5 years of playing melee and learning its physics doesn't break 2k years of evolution learning real world physics and if in doubt your brain reverts to the basics it knows. So, if we look at the visually confusing motions of the advanced player its easier for your brain to simply look at the end result without consciously trying to process the physics of every erratic motion. Obviously if you're actually focused on what the character is doing aka watching a replay and examining things seem different / slower than seeing the actions in the middle of the match. This is because your brain has time to slow down and focus solely and consciously on what that character is doing and has the time to bring in outside knowledge (aka your knowledge of melee physics) to bear more easily.

I know that's a super long explanation but basically: your brain looks for context clues, those context clues aren't there, it makes some short logical assumptions, those assumptions fill in gaps with the least possible information making choppy advanced play look faster.

EDIT:

Also, and I could be totally wrong about this, I believe the opening dash for Marth comes out in less frames than his usual dash. Abusing the opening dash in conjunction with other things like wavedash before normal dash animation means the character is, in fact, moving faster. It's called fox-trotting.

Well assessment of advanced movement! I'm still incorporating Fox-Trotting into my game. Every time I get better, the game gets even more fun though!

 

[circuspig]

You are definitely right about that, especially about being able to watch replays and analyze them better than you would play in realtime, but I honestly think my faults are:

-low tech knowledge
and
-poor reactions/reflexes

I don't really know how to work on reaction time or reflexes outside of smash, so I think the solution for me is just to play more (same with tech).
I'm burned out though, I gotta take a break for the day or something. Last 3 days have been reading, playing and watching Smash.

 

[AudioSilver]

Last 3 days have been reading, playing and watching Smash.

That's how every day is for me! I'm not going to stop studying my hardest until I'm the best player in the world. (Even then I'll keep studying!)

 

[circuspig]

That's how every day is for me! I'm not going to stop studying my hardest until I'm the best player in the world. (Even then I'll keep studying!)

In my opinion, at least for me, it isn't the best idea for a beginner like me to constantly be practicing.. After a while I start to slow down and wonder what I'm even doing or if I'm making progress, hell I'm not entirely sure if I want to main Marth even.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

In my opinion, at least for me, it isn't the best idea for a beginner like me to constantly be practicing.. After a while I start to slow down and wonder what I'm even doing or if I'm making progress, hell I'm not entirely sure if I want to main Marth even.

I'd really practice hard no more than an hour straight at the beginning. Any more than that and you begin to lose focus/get burned out. Once you get a little better at tech and such you'll begin to notice an improvement. Probably the biggest increase in my own speed that I noticed was when I got SHFFLing down pat.

Once you get used to the game (3-6 months) maybe practice for 2 hours or so. You really need to keep your goals realistic. For most people it takes around 2 years to become really, really good at Melee. I'm at around the 1 1/2 point right now.

 

[AudioSilver]

In my opinion, at least for me, it isn't the best idea for a beginner like me to constantly be practicing.. After a while I start to slow down and wonder what I'm even doing or if I'm making progress, hell I'm not entirely sure if I want to main Marth even.

Taking it at a comfertable speed is important.

 

[circuspig]

I'm at around the 1 1/2 point right now.

Do you have any recent replays?

 

[FE_Hector]

I'd really practice hard no more than an hour straight at the beginning. Any more than that and you begin to lose focus/get burned out. Once you get a little better at tech and such you'll begin to notice an improvement. Probably the biggest increase in my own speed that I noticed was when I got SHFFLing down pat.

Once you get used to the game (3-6 months) maybe practice for 2 hours or so. You really need to keep your goals realistic. For most people it takes around 2 years to become really, really good at Melee. I'm at around the 1 1/2 point right now.

Two years, huh? Bear with me, then. I've only been interested in Melee on the competitive scale for about two months. Still, if I'm gonna start attending more tournaments after high school, that gives me 3 more years.

Also, circuspig, Izzy's right. SHFFLing and teching should make you feel way faster, as should implementation of dash dancing, wavedashing, etc. You'll find your style soon enough. It took me forever to be able to follow Brawl (my first smash game) which I first got it.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

Do you have any recent replays?

I'll try and record some of my tech skill practice the next time I do it. Not really gearing up for anything right now so its mostly just fundamental stuff like dash dance -> JC grab / SH aerial, Full jump into waveland off platform uair, and other things like that. If I was going to locals or something I'd try to get some practice against an actual opponent fundamentals practice just keeps my fingers/mind fresh.

 

[FE_Hector]

I'll try and record some of my tech skill practice the next time I do it. Not really gearing up for anything right now so its mostly just fundamental stuff like dash dance -> JC grab / SH aerial, Full jump into waveland off platform uair, and other things like that. If I was going to locals or something I'd try to get some practice against an actual opponent fundamentals practice just keeps my fingers/mind fresh.

You probably know this, bit remember that fundamentals practice without an opponent doesn't necessarily mean you can, for example, consistently Techroll in the heat of the fray.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

You probably know this, bit remember that fundamentals practice without an opponent doesn't necessarily mean you can, for example, consistently Techroll in the heat of the fray.

Usually my problem with teching is that I'm too predictable with it, not that I can't do it.

;-;

 

[FE_Hector]

Usually my problem with teching is that I'm too predictable with it, not that I can't do it.

;-;

Well, I'd just recommend mixing up your techrolls, then. If you're near the edge of the stage, rolling towards the middle of the stage might be a good idea, but if your opponent thinks they're reading that option (or you think they're trying to), just tech in place and return the game to neutral. I don't have too much experience with it, but just like with basically everything else in Melee: mix up your options.

 

[AudioSilver]

I'm seeming to have a problem Wavelanding around the stage i.e. on the platforms of Battlefield. Do any of you know a better way to train Wavelanding around the stage quickly than grinding Wavelanding? (Which grinding is what I've been doing.)

I already have Wavelanding around the stage down as Ganondorf. I'm just not used to it as Marth.

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

@ AudioSilver

Usually to get to the first platform on BF you need to double jump so wavelanding isn't really useful coming from below (cover your platforma approach with an aerial). So, coming down from the top platform is really what you should be focusing on, something like Top Platform -> waveland off side platform -> grab ledge into whatever ledge option you want. I mostly use wavelands for escaping platforms and completing tomahawks from a distance: short-hop forward waveland into standing / JC grab.

Hope that helps.

 

[AudioSilver]

@ AudioSilver

Usually to get to the first platform on BF you need to double jump so wavelanding isn't really useful coming from below (cover your platforma approach with an aerial). So, coming down from the top platform is really what you should be focusing on, something like Top Platform -> waveland off side platform -> grab ledge into whatever ledge option you want. I mostly use wavelands for escaping platforms and completing tomahawks from a distance: short-hop forward waveland into standing / JC grab.

Hope that helps.

Thank you for the advice!

 

[The Young Izzy Iz]

@ circuspig @ FE_Hector @ AudioSilver

Beware terrible skill level. Recorded this at 5 in the morning using 20XX meaning this is on an xbox controller not GC, that's why I'm having trouble with short hopping. The missed L-cancel's are completely my fault though and so is the mispaced aerials. The first video is me practicing a bunch of spacing against an AI. I set it up so that he'd shield-grab every time I did shield damage. When I get grabbed that's because I mispaced the aerial. The second video is me attempting to practice L-canceling. Whenever I flash white after the aerial I got the L-cancel, whenever I flash red I missed it. I think later on I start doing a lot of nairs at center stage, that's to practice the auto-cancel timing for nair out of shield.

Let me know what you think. I understand I did horrible here so I'll try to upload a better video when I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNQITkhl8ig = Spacing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adx6L8uYYLc = L-canceling