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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

AirFair

Marth tho
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Houston, Texas
I got some cellphone videos of my Marth at a tournament on Saturday. I do apologoize bc some sets got cut out partway, and I maxed the memory on my phone, so it was difficult but I do have some clips here.

Here is a MM vs a good IC's in Houston
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxPXPZj8PVU&list=PL66SLvkMW-PDK2pIjmay484a7ustz_eSf&index=1
I guess I'd like to start with that

Vs. a puff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf6boynmW94&list=PL66SLvkMW-PDK2pIjmay484a7ustz_eSf&index=2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yPLRBKxOdI&list=PL66SLvkMW-PDK2pIjmay484a7ustz_eSf&index=3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3SSN4LzuWY&list=PL66SLvkMW-PDK2pIjmay484a7ustz_eSf&index=4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0jZYzZitLE&index=5&list=PL66SLvkMW-PDK2pIjmay484a7ustz_eSf
some falco

again apologize for the length. In two weeks, I'll be going again and I'm going to try and get better records.
 
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FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
@ AirFair AirFair I'll look over your sets later. I don't have enough time to properly watch them right now. However... I do have a few sets of me getting 3-0'd by my bro. Pretty salty about these sets to be honest. We both know I'm better.

https://youtu.be/yp3SI51ehOo Marth Sheik
https://youtu.be/mZkyKvu7dAo Falco Sheik

I know I need to work on movement and not miss so many techs, but... my biggest problem is that he doesn't respect my DD. I'll work on turning basically all rolls as Marth into WDs. Follow-ups have been way better recently than before for both characters, but my edgeguards as Marth definitely need work (I haven't even gotten to that for Falco yet).

Anyways, chew them up and spit 'em out. I really don't care. Just looking for some legit advice for improvement.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
@ AirFair AirFair

Vs. Gimme: You did a really good job at NOT getting wobbled. I'm not sure if you looked at the "Ask Dr. PPMD" thread recently, but there was a large conversation about the ICs MU. Basically, just outspace them with fair and dtilt. Blizzard is the only move that can outspace those two, so make sure to use them as much as you need to. Who cares if you camp a bit? You win. You were also fishing for a lot of fsmashes and SHFFL uairs. Go for some safer options unless you're sure that the fsmash will land. Personally, I prefer utilt to SHFFL uair even though SHFFL uair can be repeated more quickly simply due to the fact that it's a bit easier to time out and has wonky angles. I also saw you go for some nairs when a uair/utilt definitely would've connected.

Vs. Pingu: As I'm sure you noticed, Puff is super sneaky. You handled her quite well. My biggest thing is just for the MU in general. You cannot overextend in this MU at all. Getting greedy is how you'll die. Just wall her out, chip away at her health, and take the lead. Any matches involving a floaty like Puff will drag out. Don't think there's anything wrong with finishing the match late or even just timing her out.

Vs. Prodigy: One thing: chaingrab. In general, uthrow will be better against Falco. If you can't get a CG because he moves over so he can land on a platform, utilt or SHFFL uair him. Don't get stuck in shield, even against lasers. He nearly started some shield pressure. Don't give up edgeguards when he sideBs. I get there's the fear of getting hit off of the ledge, but it's plenty easy to press R. Also, your combo/punish game on this Falco wasn't very good. I don't have too much knowledge regarding the MU... @EH | Saiblade LOVES the MU as Falco, so let's see what he knows.
 

AirFair

Marth tho
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
1,972
Location
Houston, Texas
thanks buddy

I've been playing against gimmie for a long time, so I'm SUPER close to understanding the matchup a little better.
Yeah I'd like to think I do a good job of kililng nana

Pingu was kind of weird because he used pound a lot more than I'm used to. Just looking at the set teaches a lesson that I should be able to adapt and not lose to sub optimal options more than once, which is what people usually use their first stock for.

Lol prodigy is amazing for a ten year old. I was happy that I took the stocks I did, but I'll beat him soon. I definitely use uthrow when on center stage. But If I can get Falco offstage with a guaranteed dthrow or fthrow, I'll take my chances lol

I'll look at that Marth sheik set more later.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Ah, I was wondering about that Falco's voice. Thought it was a girl tbh. That's just a small difference between us is I prefer to be a bit safer. I try to be a bit more careful before going for kill moves offstage... should probably turn more of those situations into KOs, especially as Falco. But yeah, lemme know what advice you have on the matches besides stopping rolling. I also needa get him to respect my DD. Whenever I start DDing he just dash attacks or DACGs and it becomes a useless tool for me. Something I found out before doing that set was that he can't handle fair walls too well, so I should probably start setting up more of those. I know I need to work on WD implementation, but do you have any other tips?
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
To be honest, your punish game wasn't that bad. There were a few times you seemed to get stuck in your DD (like when he was on the ledge above you and a SHFFL uair or Run Cancel utilt would've worked), but other than that your issue was more that comboing Fox is a pain due to how quickly he falls (at least in my opinion). You also missed some sweetspots when recovering that led to death. Also, it seems you overuse nair and commit to one option far too quickly. One particular instance right before the end of game 1 you had a clear chance to ledgehop dair him that you missed because you were already in a position where that ensured your loss in the match, too. Another thing I saw at least once: remember not to try DDing out of a run. WD to cancel it before DDing (working on that myself). One thing that I noticed him doing consistently was going for uairs, some of which you definitely could have beaten out with a dair or Counter.
 

MarthBoi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 25, 2015
Messages
4
http://youtu.be/KCjsIOdFO74

(Warning: extremely low quality video)

Just me and a friend messing around with some Marth-Shiek, I learned about wavedashing and l canceling all that fun stuff in June and went to my first tournament in July but I've only been to one other one since so any criticism would be very very appreciated. Tear me apart :)
 
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L33thal

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
131
Location
Monterey Park, CA
Marth vs. Fox/Link

My Marth is more polished now but I feel like my mentality with Marth isn't very efficient. I try to land a hit and start punishes a lot. Any tips would be really appreciated.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
@ L L33thal Your Marth definitely looks pretty smooth when you're moving. Honestly, the biggest issues that I noticed were spending way too much time in shield, not staying wary in the neutral, and not taking center stage even when you had the advantage.

For time in shield, honestly just do some tight DDs in place and react then instead of draining your shield a lot. There were a few times where it nearly broke because you love it so much. I'm not saying it didn't pay off in shieldgrabs, but that's more an issue with the Fox.

In the neutral, you really just need to remember what tools your opponent has. Especially if you're fighting a Fox, expect them to be super good in their combo game to the point that you really shouldn't even take a hit without dying. Watch for patterns and preferred punishes and destroy because of it.

Center stage is just an advantage because you have a lot of stage control and your opponent will get antsy. You can more easily control the pace of the match and what they can/can't do if you have center stage, so try to abuse it a bit more.
 

ChivalRuse

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 13, 2007
Messages
8,413
Location
College Park, MD
http://youtu.be/KCjsIOdFO74

(Warning: extremely low quality video)

Just me and a friend messing around with some Marth-Shiek, I learned about wavedashing and l canceling all that fun stuff in June and went to my first tournament in July but I've only been to one other one since so any criticism would be very very appreciated. Tear me apart :)
You seem to have a good understanding of how to space your moves to keep the opponent at bay. I would like to see you against some other players, though, because you seemed to know your opponent's play style, as he fell prey to the same traps repeatedly (tech rolling toward center stage into your waiting f-smash, for example).

I want to point out that you jump a bit excessively. The Sheik didn't know how to capitalize on those openings, but an experienced Sheik player will be all over your landing every time you jump and do an aerial. You had some good d-tilt spacing, but I want to see more dash dance grabs to avoid Sheik's own hitboxes and to make yourself mobile and harder to hit.
 
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Hawkins

Smash Rookie
Joined
Sep 2, 2015
Messages
14
I finally got a video of myself playing. This particular match is against a Peach and its actually one of my better matches. Obviously I'm just starting to learn so any comments or advice anyone has to give me would be much appreciated. I know my Marth needs a lot of work. I rarely think about what I'm doing, i mostly just run on autopilot which clearly doesn't work very well. Not to even mention my numerous controller flubs. it seems like all the time i'll try to do one thing and something else just comes out (jumping in the midst of a dashdance and full hopping instead of short hopping in particular make me cringe and it happens all the time.)
i suppose the only real solution for those things is to practice. but a lot of the time i just don't even know what it is that i'm supposed to do in a given situation, such as when peach is floating above me, or i'm trying to edgeguard. and when i think i'm doing the right thing, like up-tilting, i just whiff and eat a fair. it drives me nuts! and getting edgeguarded by a turnip is obviously something i would rather avoid.
this is the only good video i have so i'll just have to work with it for now but i'll try to get a few more later on. I appreciate any advice on the Peach matchup specifically, but more so i just want advice on how to improve over all because, frankly, i get bodied by nearly everyone. But hey, such is the life of a new player right?
 

PoppaSquat

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
17
Location
Chapel Hill, North Carolina
Guys I got demolished in the marth ditto a few days ago. This guy was a pretty high level marth from MDVA that visited UNC's weekly while he was down here. some question I have are:

1. how do I keep from getting overwhelmed? it is to my understanding that marth should be played a bit more passively then other top tiers, but this guy was all over me and didn't let up. how do I alleviate the pressure or prevent getting pressured as hard in the first place?

2. how do I deal with dash attacks when I'm dash dancing? my biggest problem in the ditto is getting my butt slapped by the opposing marths dash attack while I'm dashing away, how should I avoid/deal with this approach while I'm moving? (I know if I'm still I can crouch cancel but I want to stay moving)

3. what are some general tips for this matchup?

4. any critique of my playstyle? places I can improve? (I know you can't see much since I got bodied but any tips are incredibly helpful!)

I am the very fist game on this stream http://www.twitch.tv/ncsusmash/v/19939012

Thanks guys!
 
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FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
I'll watch it and edit this later, but just off the top of my head:

1) Keep yourself from getting overwhelmed mentally. If he's approaching you and staying up on you a ton, then just dtilt and fair him away from you. They're both really good in this MU.

2) If he's handling the dash away with a dash attack, WD away. DWD -> WD -> WD is your fastest movement option. Alternately, if you know it's coming, you can just WD in place and get the CC input so you can CC grab him. You might be able to just jump over him if you see it coming.

3) Dtilt and fair are both really good for this MU> Work on SH fair WL back makes for super slippery movement. Also, if he doesn't DI down and away, you'll want to fthrow regrab because it works. If he does, mixup fthrow and uthrow if you want. No idea if it's legit or not, but I feel like bthrow fsmash might work some of the time.
 

A_Reverie

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 26, 2015
Messages
175
PoppaSquat PoppaSquat Right off the bat, I've noticed that you jump immediately out of hitstun a lot, and this is very exploitable. As Marth, you need to preserve your jump as best you can or else your recovery is much more easily gimpable. After I answer your questions, keep this habit in mind (I will mention it when I see it) while I do a breakdown of your vod.

1) Marth can play rather aggressively in the ditto because of a few things: How well he can exert stage control versus himself, and how much reward you can get from grabs in this matchup. Watch your match again and pay close attention to how your opponent's punishes differ from yours. Watch for how he gets his grabs. He plays the matchup pretty well and you can learn a lot from watching him.

2) Dash attack has a pretty clear cue, so if you see it just block it and you can get a grab if you work OOS properly. If you're facing away from him when you block, you can shield DI in, wavedash behind him and grab. There are other options, including what FE_Hector FE_Hector mentions above. Marth should not be using dash attack in neutral because of how easy it is to punish it. He'd be much better off grabbing your butt ;) than he is dash attacking. The key is to watch his dash dance and block as briefly as possible to sort of "scout" for the dash attack with the shield. If you don't think you'll block anything, wavedash out of it. A result of this will likely be that your opponent will try to grab your shield, which you can also counterplay.

3) It's a poke and grab war. This matchup can swing very quickly based on who is getting grabs and taking stage. Your gameplan is to push the opposing Marth offstage and finish with edge guarding. 99% of the stocks you take should be edge guards, the lower the percent the better. Pushing them offstage requires gaining stage control, which is through poking (D-tilt, sometimes F-tilt) and throwing. F-throw is sacred here, as with most floaty matchups. Outside of the chainthrow percentage (which can be DI'd and spotdodged) it will put Marth into tumble and force a tech IF they DI properly. If they don't, you score a big punish. U-throw is useful as a mixup and can lead to mean juggle punishes. For edge guarding, grab the ledge and hog/gimp if they're low. If they're high, pressure them with F-air when they try to come back down and force them to go low. If they can't sweet spot correctly, D-tilt them away and grab the ledge, or just spike them with a FF D-air.

Breakdown
[00:00] While you are dash dancing, watch your opponent. You can see him approach you, but you don't react with anything. You continue your dash dance from before and lose your spacing, forfeiting the stage advantage. Note the immediate jump out of hitstun.

[00:03] You did well getting back down to the ground, but here I would have dashed the other way to cross him up. Choosing to go in front of him is alright but you give him too much space, resulting in the F-air. A grab here would have been optimal.

[00:04] If you see Marth D-tilting at this percentage, you know he's holding down and if you attack him, it will result in a crouch cancel. Work on getting Marth's furthest ledge snap range (you landed it around [00:07]) It will help you avoid D-tilts like these.

[00:08] This was an excellent recovery from the ledge. If you're going to go for the grab, though, try getting it as quickly as you can after crossing up. You dash a little too far and miss your opening.

[00:11] Note the jump immediately out of hitstun. Using Up-B here is a temporary solution to a bigger problem. If you get hit out after this (highly likely in your helpless state), you're offstage without a jump.

[00:15] After a ledge dash, if you see your opponent fade back to compensate you don't want to shield. Rolling in afterward or spot dodging to avoid the possible grab is superior. Watch how often you choose ledge dash and remember other options, such as regular get up or ledge roll.

[00:20] This is something that can be teched, but all in all a terrible situation to be in: off stage with no jump. Check back to what put you here: The grab from [00:15]. You missed your down-away DI and got pushed way off stage. Throughout all of this I don't think you used your jump at all (unless you used it before your forward B stall before you get N-aired, which is worse.) This is what I was meaning to highlight before: grabs are incredibly powerful in Marth dittos.

[00:36] It looks like you aren't acting as soon as you could be after your throws. Grind this out in training mode. Either way, if you feel like your follow up isn't going to land (you can see your opponent land and buffer the spotdodge), just wait for the spotdodge and grab then. If you whiff a grab, just dash away.

[00:39] If you see an opposing Marth whiff a rising F-air while you're on the ledge, do a ledge dash to cross up and grab. They can't do anything but F-air again (which will whiff from invulnerability) until they reach the ground and if you get behind them during that time you're in a winning position.

[00:40] Good N-air, but at this percentage it isn't likely to lead into anything. Your grab attempt was sensible, but just barely lacking the frames to work. Watch how far off the ground they end up after hitting them to get an idea of when you should go for a grab.

[00:42] If you miss techs like these, hold down and try to tech again when you get hit. It can prevent punishes like these from being extended.

[00:49] You were in a good position after your airdodge onto the right platform, but you threw it away by double jumping back onto the top platform, and you never end up getting that jump back. This entire exchange is a good example of how much better off Marth is on the ground. Your mission in situations like these should be to return to the ground safely.

[00:52] These evasive Up-Bs are not a good idea and I encourage you to purge them from your play entirely. Instead, work on learning to wiggle out of tumble and then air dodge through F-smashes like those. You can also F-air out of tumble.

[01:04] With a low platform like this, U-throw is better. This Marth edge cancels and you get a critical miss.

[01:06] Note the positioning. Your opponent is in the corner, so you can sort of predict his plan: to gain stage control. He rolls here to get behind you, which can be punished.

[01:08] I'm guessing this jab was a mistake. You probably could have dashed away from the dash attack and scored a grab. Not 100% sure here.

[01:09] You jump here, which I think is intentional instead of just the habit jump. In this situation, you would want to waveland on top platform and regain control as well as get your jump back.

[01:14] Committing to full jump aerials like this is very risky. You whiff here and then burn your jump, causing you to get immediately punished. Instead, stay grounded and work off of U-air and use platforms to secure the punish. If you whiff, return to the ground immediately.

[01:22] Even had this B-air hit, you would have gained little from it. Try to focus less on scoring individual hits and more on the gameplan as a whole. Errant swings like this lack reward and often get punished more than anything.

[01:23] If you score a hit that sends them toward a platform, watch the trajectory. If you see them DI toward a platform edge, expect an edge cancel and maintain your spacing. Here, you ran in for a tech chase and got whacked, dropping the punish.

[01:27] F-smash should only be used out of pivot, if at all. Sparingly you can use it to punish someone dashing in for a grab or dash attack, but overall it's a huge risk.

[01:28] N-air isn't as effective if you move forward as opposed to a stationary one. Getting up above a D-tilt like you did is best followed up by a SHFFL F-air, or just an empty hop into grab.

[01:30] Angle your shield down to prevent getting poked like this. You can then wavedash OOS to escape the situation.

[01:36] U-throw could have worked, but remember not to pursue so far into the air. You want to be able to return to the ground shortly so you can cover more space and extend the juggle.

[01:40] Block these rising F-airs and either grab or wavedash OOS to cross up. Don't let yourself be bullied off stage.

[02:04] This D-air gets you killed. I know it's hard not to swing when you come down like this, but the better bet is to make them miss or move out of range, which is why saving your jump is so critical.

[02:34] You almost got him to walk into the F-smash, but from now on consider the outcome of missing these before you input them. The lag will almost always cause you to lose any advantage you gained in the process, so only go for F-smashes as part of a true combo.

[02:39] Good F-smash to get him off stage, but the one you aimed at the ledge was a bit reaching. Notice the way he moves as you approach the ledge. You can see he's going for the ledge, but in this case it's best to just let him have it and keep your control.

[02:45] Resist the urge to tech chase with F-smash until you get really good at it. Go for grabs if they shield and F-smash if they spot dodge. Watch for what they choose by dash dancing while they tech. You can bait out a spot dodge by making them think you'll grab, etc.

[02:52] Good attempt at the tech chase. For the tipper tech chase on Battlefield, you want to be in position as their roll carries them left or right. If you're not, then go for U-air/U-tilt.

[02:55] F-smash as an edge guard should only be used to trade/intercept an Up-B or to punish floating with Side-B. Otherwise, push them off with a F-air. The position you put them in after that D-throw pretty much requires them to jump. Choose your attack according to this thought process.

[03:01] Your opponent does a tournament winner, which is basically a free F-air or U-air on this stage. N-air doesn't cover enough unless they're teching.

[03:02] The only way this F-smash would have connected is if your opponent was stuck in something like a swing animation. Cover landings like this with F-air or by placing a grab right where they intend to land.

[03:07] This D-air was a long shot and I'm sure you know this now after rewatching. Just work on resisting that urge to swing unnecessarily.

[03:11] This is the kind of cross up that beats a lot of things. It's crucial that you learn what to do afterward. These are the perfect times to get grabs because your opponent puts themselves closer to the edge, so if you throw them that way you gain twice as much as you would throwing them the other way.

[03:13] Perhaps a mistake, the dash attack is bad for attacking center stage especially. You likely went for D-tilt, which you should wavedash into primarily. Run cancel D-tilt is mainly used as a chase down.

[03:17] If you haven't noticed by now, you've gone for tipper as your tech chase multiple times, and your opponent is conditioned to this. Had you waited for the spot dodge, you'd have taken the stock. Keep an eye out for situations like these the more you play.

[03:21] That is exactly how you play an opponent in the corner.

[03:33] This jump is very dangerous. You didn't get punished but be wary of these out of tumble jumps from now on.

[03:39] At this percentage, you need tippers when attacking the platform with F-air or this will happen. A better option is to stay grounded and pressure the platform from below. If you have to jump, do a short hop U-air instead.

[03:43] Again, if you must jump, do a short hop. Full hops like these get you stuck in that swing animation and lead to you eating a punish.

[03:49] D-air here was awkward. Only do this if you're really styling, otherwise stay grounded and note his position: the corner. Getting grabbed while they're in the corner leads to an instant reversal with d-throw, so stay spaced and force them out with the threat of pokes.

[04:02] The full hop gets you punished.

[04:05] I don't think you needed to jump here, and again looks like the habit jump. Instead, you could have just fallen to the ledge and recovered, then you'd be grounded again.

[04:20blazeit] The swing of desperation makes it easier for tipper to connect. Remember that individual hits are not as important as the gameplan.

[04:27] I think you input your L-cancel for too long here. I do this a lot because of nerves or if the move autocancels and I forget. Things like this will improve with practice in the tournament environment. Keep going.

[04:35] You should definitely wavedash OOS more. Imagine had you landed the D-air here. You likely wouldn't have gotten much more than that. Gameplan > Hits

[04:37] Good neutral play leading up to here. I would still like to see you jumping less. I see you go for a big full hop, which is easily reacted to, and then some kind of swing (D-air?) and it doesn't quite come out before you hit the ground. Try not to panic and hit too many buttons. Stay calm and focus on reaching the ground and teching if necessary.

[04:42] Watch closely the events that occur after your jump OOS. I can imagine you're in pure avoidance mode, so you end up double jumping way high for no reason at all. Meanwhile, your opponent moves left and maintains center, knowing you have to come back down and land now. Given this conclusion, you can be pretty certain that he'll attack the platform. You could have fallen straight through with a F-air and beaten his attack, but your shield drop gave him time to hit you first.

[04:49] Great sweet spot, but you know what happened here. Stay patient!

[04:58] Your approach to attacking platforms should be methodical. Ask yourself: Are they in control or are they teching? If they're in control, a short hop F-air or U-air are your best bet. Are they shielding? Maintain center and counterplay their next move. Are they dash dancing? Bait something.

[05:00] This DI down/crouch cancel was spot-on, but your grab flubbed.

[05:02] The jump here set you up for a lot of pain. You were positioned well enough to F-air but I suppose you didn't expect the edge cancel. A tech roll into a buffered down tilted shield would have been ideal.

[05:03] Side-B stall keeps you in the air longer, which goes against the gameplan and sets you up to be punished longer without regaining your jump.

[05:06] You made it back but they called your swing with a crouch cancel. Simply chose the wrong option. Not necessarily a bad one, but there are other things you can explore in situations like these. Taking the ledge is worthwhile at times, especially if you're missing your jump. Wiggle-out waveland onto the platform could have helped too. If you do land hits like these, input your grab as soon as you can.

[05:13] He still had his jump. Same as before: Choosing F-smash here gets you punished. Bait the second jump or hit them out again and force it.

[05:18] I can tell you were looking to punish his whiffed F-smash here with a D-air, but there are other ways to punish than just dealing damage. Drift behind him and land safely in a superior position. Lead this into an even bigger punish than D-air would be.

[05:20] Another evasive Up-B. RIP :c Again, make sure you remove these from your play entirely.

To-Do List
  • Grind away that jump out of hitstun habit until it's nothing but a bad memory. Practice wiggle-out and F-air to get out of tumble. Waveland after these to further expand your options.
  • Work on your OOS. Prioritize wavedash and grab before resorting to aerials. Look for places to cross up using wavedash OOS.
  • Practice attacking platforms. Use short hop tippered aerials to set up juggles to push your opponent offstage. Condition your opponent to do things like block and spot dodge then counter accordingly.
  • Add more options to your platform defense. You rely on jumping out of the pressure a lot. Try using wavedash OOS, light shield, shield drop, rolling, and spot dodging to get you out of different situations.
 
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_noname

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Messages
16
Video 1 Against Falcon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XCy7VAL_nM
Video 2 Against Falco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHfwMTjsZDY

Basically what I've been trouble is edge-guarding, getting those important grabs and doing a lot of f-smashes.

Been experimenting with dash-dancing and using some wavedashes in between to bait out nair approaches
but what I'm trying to do now is finding a tactic for each approach falco/fox or in general any character does.
Another thing that comes to my mind is that there are situations where i feel like that players are just way too close to my character. Is there something I can do to quickly push them away a little bit? Like moments where you don't have any breathing room.

I've also been messing around with not using the c-stick. It's really strange because I tend to do a lot of f-smashes using the c-stick and no quick access to down-tilts. But it makes putting out aerials a lot easier.

What are you guys opinions about the c-stick?

Some questions against floaties as well. What do I do in the neutral game, just go for forward grabs? Tend to have problems with mainly peach and jiggly.
 
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Klemes

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 4, 2015
Messages
236
Location
France
@ AirFair AirFair I'll look over your sets later. I don't have enough time to properly watch them right now. However... I do have a few sets of me getting 3-0'd by my bro. Pretty salty about these sets to be honest. We both know I'm better.

https://youtu.be/yp3SI51ehOo Marth Sheik
https://youtu.be/mZkyKvu7dAo Falco Sheik

I know I need to work on movement and not miss so many techs, but... my biggest problem is that he doesn't respect my DD. I'll work on turning basically all rolls as Marth into WDs. Follow-ups have been way better recently than before for both characters, but my edgeguards as Marth definitely need work (I haven't even gotten to that for Falco yet).

Anyways, chew them up and spit 'em out. I really don't care. Just looking for some legit advice for improvement.
Hi. I watched your falco set. I'm sure you're well aware about what I'm about to say, but here are a few things I definitely noticed in your playing.

- laser shiek way more ! there are tons of time when you were at a safe distance to laser, but you let shiek mess around or charge needles for free. Don't you wanna make her life a living hell ? Also whenever you're in a bad spot in neutral, retreat then laser, don't push your luck when the situation is obviously in his favor.
- shield those needles, nuff' said...
- don't try so hard to shine OoS for now, three spotdoges in a row do you no good... Shield-grab, nair or bair OoS.
- you're not the only one to mess up stuff. Just f-smash whenever he whiffs smashes or dash attacks. Oh and shiek's f-smash is pretty bad, shield and punish for free.
- your approach isn't bad, but you would benefit a lot by implementing more laser approaches. Laser nair from afar, laser d-tilt / laser shine / laser grab up close. Laser f-tilt / laser jab are best as spacing tools, and jab can lead to free grabs or aerials at higher %.
- mix up your recoveries, I saw you phantasm from ledge three times in a row. Also when shiek is too far to punish, just do simple get-up.
- to punish shiek's recovery, grab ledge, punish her lag with bair/ simple get-up then d-smash.

Hope this helps !
 

Zookerz

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 5, 2015
Messages
1
Alright, so i'm new and have been playing for about 4 months competitively now and I can make it kinda far in bracket at my local, but i'm getting wrecked vs a couple foxes ( off stream ) and sheik/peach. Here are some matches I played on stream earlier. I'm Zook

http://www.twitch.tv/memphissmash/v/23722585?t=02h55m04s - Sheik game
http://www.twitch.tv/memphissmash/v/23722585?t=03h30m03s - Peach game

I know a few issues I have such as some technical flubs and I have a really bad habit of f-smashing a lot which i'm working on, but could you guys give me advice on other things that i'm doing wrong / that I should work on?
 

Saint Shaden 009

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 18, 2015
Messages
47
Location
Ocoee, Florida
Slippi.gg
SAIN#490
Hopefully you guys can help me out here and critique this vid of my Marth at Smash the Record vs VGBC's own Redd (a ranked player un MDVA if you didn't know). I know alot of this is my lack of experience and Redd being a notable tournament player, but anything is helpful tbh.

Also, in case anyone who watches this is wondering, game 2 he banned Yoshi's and I was torn between FD and BF as you can see. I was thinking he is comfortable as Falco on FD and that spooked me too much to try FD. In hindsight, I should've went there as soon as he didn't ban it. My CG game on Falco is fine, but I guess I was overthinking things lolol.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=S2QTlCPRzGE

Thanks, boyos.
 

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
Video 1 Against Falcon: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XCy7VAL_nM
Video 2 Against Falco: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHfwMTjsZDY

Basically what I've been trouble is edge-guarding, getting those important grabs and doing a lot of f-smashes.

Been experimenting with dash-dancing and using some wavedashes in between to bait out nair approaches
but what I'm trying to do now is finding a tactic for each approach falco/fox or in general any character does.
Another thing that comes to my mind is that there are situations where i feel like that players are just way too close to my character. Is there something I can do to quickly push them away a little bit? Like moments where you don't have any breathing room.

I've also been messing around with not using the c-stick. It's really strange because I tend to do a lot of f-smashes using the c-stick and no quick access to down-tilts. But it makes putting out aerials a lot easier.

What are you guys opinions about the c-stick?

Some questions against floaties as well. What do I do in the neutral game, just go for forward grabs? Tend to have problems with mainly peach and jiggly.
OK first things first. You are Marth and if you see someone is coming to close to you, they are in the range where they can get hit before you.
If your problem is zoning, but a bigger part of it is failing to recognize grab opportunities. Watch you enemy and not your charecter, be more deliberate with placing attacks. this is the only way your opponent will start to respect Marths range as appose to them running you down because you threw out a Fair from across stage.
Marths biggest weakness is actually being run down and no there isn't a quick fix or super fast hit box to get them away, BUT you do effectively out range the entire cast! You should learn more about dash dances, Fox trots, Run cancels, and wave dashing. These movement options keep you out of harms way while also applying huge amounts of pressure on your opponent. This wasn't a match up based annalists but more of things i see you struggle with not not implement.

Use C-stick for all areals always. not just for retreating fairs. It plays into many more aspects of the game you don't account for yet, but once you reach higher levels of play C-stick is a necessity.

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-marth-main.422585/

General advice for breaking habits
Stop doing that option completely! next time you practice just just eliminate that option. pretend it dosn't exist. this is not only a great way to break a habit but expose how other aspects of your game are lacking without that option as a crutch. Once you do incorporate that option back into you play you'll use it much more intelligently, deliberately, and to more success than before.
 
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_noname

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Messages
16
OK first things first. You are Marth and if you see someone is coming to close to you, they are in the range where they can get hit before you.
If your problem is zoning, but a bigger part of it is failing to recognize grab opportunities. Watch you enemy and not your charecter, be more deliberate with placing attacks. this is the only way your opponent will start to respect Marths range as appose to them running you down because you threw out a Fair from across stage.
Marths biggest weakness is actually being run down and no there isn't a quick fix or super fast hit box to get them away, BUT you do effectively out range the entire cast! You should learn more about dash dances, Fox trots, Run cancels, and wave dashing. These movement options keep you out of harms way while also applying huge amounts of pressure on your opponent. This wasn't a match up based annalists but more of things i see you struggle with not not implement.

Use C-stick for all areals always. not just for retreating fairs. It plays into many more aspects of the game you don't account for yet, but once you reach higher levels of play C-stick is a necessity.

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-marth-main.422585/

General advice for breaking habits
Stop doing that option completely! next time you practice just just eliminate that option. pretend it dosn't exist. this is not only a great way to break a habit but expose how other aspects of your game are lacking without that option as a crutch. Once you do incorporate that option back into you play you'll use it much more intelligently, deliberately, and to more success than before.
First of all thanks for taking time and giving me crucial feedback. I've been working a ton in implementing different movement options for different approaches. I've also taking into account about SDI and DI. Got out of really sticky situations thanks to them. So for now I'm working on my combo game/zoning and spacing.

I still very much dislike the C-stick. It just feels way too unnatural for me to use it in my current state. It just feels much much better to use the control stick instead, because being able to switch from fairs into uptilt and fsmash is a lot faster than switching your thumbs from your C-stick to your A button. But at the other hand the C-stick is a lot more accurate, so I'll probably use it more at edgeguarding.

Also is there something different I should do against lightweight characters versus spacies?
 

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
First of all thanks for taking time and giving me crucial feedback. I've been working a ton in implementing different movement options for different approaches. I've also taking into account about SDI and DI. Got out of really sticky situations thanks to them. So for now I'm working on my combo game/zoning and spacing.

I still very much dislike the C-stick. It just feels way too unnatural for me to use it in my current state. It just feels much much better to use the control stick instead, because being able to switch from fairs into uptilt and fsmash is a lot faster than switching your thumbs from your C-stick to your A button. But at the other hand the C-stick is a lot more accurate, so I'll probably use it more at edgeguarding.

Also is there something different I should do against lightweight characters versus spacies?
With light weigh and float charecters. This is something I've been working on myself. That's a pretty broad thing so I'll start with the mind set.

First weight and fall speed are different things. The spacies are light but fall fast. Gannon is super heavy but falls resonibly slower.

Don't lump all these charecters into one false category "float light charecters", although there are charecters who share these traits you should view everyone as a unique snowflake. (Lol)
All these matchups play very differently so there isn't a one size fits all solution for these charecters who share the same traits despite follow ups being similare. At the beginning you'll feel compelled to say that charecters who have similar weight and fall speed are in a particular class of charecters and with that mindset you'll play the matchups the same as you would against the rest of the charecters you sectioned off in that category.

You would not play a peach the same as a puff or not play a puff the same as a samus.

I know this isn't charecter specific advice but I think it would be more beificial to addoped the mind set. Anyway if you have charecters specific stuff I'd be happy to answer but take what I say with caution as I'm still learning myself.

http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...r-questions-here.230020/page-92#post-15655102

The link is on the C-stick thing
 
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Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuaM1Ug54b8 (inexperienced marth vs ganon)
I was pretty nervous playing on stream so I missed some easy stuff, but matchup specific advice or any advice at all would be appreciated.
Well right out of the gate you try to pressure the lower platform with a Nair. This is ok if you have the read that they will run off but Ganon is slow and will most likely jump in these situations.( the match just started so I can't say there was any read anyway.) Don't be so impulsive at the start of the match.

I'm seeing a lot of good dash dances and spacing but whenever you get the opportunity to punish you jump. Re-watch the video and count how many times you got punished for jumping. You got faired a LOT... Learn to act out of your dash dance with other moves that aren't areals. (grabs, D-tilts, run cancel stuff)

Your dash dances spacing was good but it was easily read and Ganon capitalized. you should learn to incorporate more ambiguous spacing techniques into your ground movement. (dash dance, wave dash, sticky walk, run cancels, fox trots)
Marth is primarily a grounded character with amazing ground movement. If there was any match up that you should run circles in it would be Ganon. Some characters you you do want to play the Zoning game (IC, Luigi, Puff) but Ganon you can't do that as effectively despite your range.

About your areals again
, all Marths zoning areals (Fair, Nair) are shorter than a lot of Ganons grounded attacks. This is relevant in the Ganon match up because Ganon can actually out range your areals with some of his own moves. Your jumps are a commitment that he had a read on so even if you did space you areals better you run the risk of trading and there's no reason you should change Ganon in a power Match. Marth doesn't trade well. Especially with Ganon (and peach).

Your punish game was lack luster in the sense tat you got some combo starters but not kills. Your goal with Ganon when comboing is to carry him off stage not to build percent. Ganon is the fourth heaviest character in the game and Marths big kill moves are NOT that strong. Marth is , however, The best edge guarder in the game and Ganon's Recovery is Trash. You combo Ganon into an edge guard situation essentially. Anyway you should learn when to end a combo or juggle with a move to know them off stage. (Nair, Shield breaker, B-bair, F-smash, Weak F-airs)
at 1:40 you can see a good juggle but you ended it with a fair instead of n-air and got punished for it.

Edge guarding. In game one you got one edge guard and it was three forward smashes. That was also the only successful edge guard your whole set. (go back and watch every time ganon was knocked off the edge and ask yourself what you could have done to get the kill) There were , however, Many many edge guard and gimp opportunity's. (3:20. just stand there next time)

Honestly the biggest glairing thing holes in your game are movement, your jumping habit and your edge game.
This is really bad for Marth. Marth should , for the most part, remain grounded in natural because that's where he has the most options and greatest range of motion. You jumping for every approach not only makes all your approaches linear and predictable as hell it also nullifies your strongest attributes (range and movement)

BREAKING THIS HABBIT
Next time your practice never jump again. Not even to combo! just pretend like there is no jump button. This will force you to Improve dash dance game and over all ground movement as well as exposing (and hopefully fixing) glairing, exploitable issues in your game. Once you do incorporate jumps back into your game it will be a lot more deliberate and you'll have a new found amazing ground game as well.

Marth does not have the strongest moves to kill off the top and side. (he is actually kinda week at it.) So the majority of your kills will come from edge guarding. Your problem is your impulsive not reactive. Watch and wait on your edge guards. They'll come to you so you just need to know them away again. Remember to build off the the edge guard options you picked. Every move should make it harder and harder for them to get back until it becomes impossible. Learn your edge options. Like edge hop areals and edge dashes. Even hax dash.
 
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dinn3rr

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 10, 2013
Messages
31
Location
Ventura, CA
Finally got a VOD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IICU7WqMNzQ

ugh, I am so dissapointed with how I play g4/5. I got put on tilt in the stupidest way and made some horrible mistakes, so I know that, but I'm still looking for pointers. Also tbh I played like **** at this local

also ref code: dinnerforlunch
 
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L33thal

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
131
Location
Monterey Park, CA
Can anyone give me advice or critique about this set? I'm going to a huge SoCal tourney tomorrow with a bunch of ranked players. I want my Marth to be as sharp as can be. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 

Kim Steinbach-Reif

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
47
Location
Sweden
Ref Code: Nord

I have recently switched from Falco to Fox (throughout a span of several months) to currently Marth main as of 4 or so days ago. Mostly I've just played against my brothers (also newly switched) Captain Falcon so therefor my matchup experience is non-existing at this point. I'm also fully aware that I may lack certain specific Marth techskill since I haven't really had the time to practice that much solo. Any thoughts on what techniques I need to learn and polish is also much appreciated. (:

I would love to hear any criticism! Good and bad, be brutaly honest!

PS: Not the best quality nor framerate, also a bit choppy at some parts.

Nord vs Calle W (Currently ranked 13 in Europe)
This match is a utterly destruction for the most part. So here is what I look like when I get bodied.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD4FshlpkxM (Marth vs Falco)

Nord vs Andreas
This match is a very even match between us two. It's somewhat longer so here you can see how I play when I am more in control or comfortable with my movement and moves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa-hjjGRAi8 (Marth vs Yoshi)

THANKS IN ADVANCE! <3
 
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TopazWeaver

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 22, 2015
Messages
4
Warning: Low level play.


I've been playing for a bit over a year now, and am kind of stuck on improving. What am I doing wrong? What am I doing right? A little nudge in the right direction would be super helpful. Thanks guys.
 

Hunybear

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 27, 2013
Messages
405
Location
Nashville Tennessee
Warning: Low level play.


I've been playing for a bit over a year now, and am kind of stuck on improving. What am I doing wrong? What am I doing right? A little nudge in the right direction would be super helpful. Thanks guys.
Well at first i thought the problem was "for both of you" stupid shielding. After watching I'd say you need to learn to DD. It seems to me your just dashing back and forth in your free time or when you feel as if your supposed too instead of thinking of your dash toward and away as meaningful inputs.

A lot of the cases I saw you could dash back to avoid an areal but instead shielded and acted out of that. Both you and the space animal player have this habbit so I assume you are practice buddies or no?

Your jumping a lot when a DD grab or Dtilt would have been better. Actually I think almost all you approaches were areals as well as your OOS moves (aside from shield grab). You would also retreat to platforms randomly hrough out the matches. Idk why I guess it feels comfortable for you but I recommend staying grounded from now on.

Bottom line with improper DD application, areal approaches, retreating to platforms, and shielding way to much... You need to work on ground game.

I recommend first learning your DD range, fox trots, run cancels, WD lengths and all that good stuff. If you do know then just practice them more. Next time you practice don't jump or shield at all. Even if its the right option don't do it. This will help you break the habbit of force you to use different moves to handle the same situations. It will also expose aspects of the game you didn't know youbwere lacking in and bring forth great improvement.

Think of dash dances as dash towards an opponent to apply pressure and away as a bait. Once you start thinking more about delibrat inputs you'll see great
Improvement.

(Pro tip. Up throw > F-smash on fast fallers is a real set up at every level of play. If they are past 60% up throw> up air > F-smash.)
Basicly convert off of grabs better that what your doing. Combos are nice but edge guards take more stalks.
 
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7dogguy

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 31, 2013
Messages
61
Location
WV
3DS FC
2466-2487-7066
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sejoon700

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 23, 2015
Messages
2
I'm not even gonna watch that set right now. My Falco's gotten way better since then.
Wait so let me get this straight. This guy took the time to write a feedback for a video YOU posted and you're not even going to watch it? Half of his comments aren't even falco specific. You spot dodge, have bad recoveries, and have terrible OoS options in both your videos. If I played you right now, I doubt your falco has become so good to the point where you fixed these mistakes.

You have an ego for someone who really shouldn't be having one and its gonna hinder your growth in the long run. I see you've been giving feedback to other people on this thread. Its ridiculous how you expect others to take your feedback when u blatantly ignore theres when most of them are better than you.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
I meant rewatching the set. I'd already gotten a lot of feedback for that set and what he said just reinforced what I'd already known. I had been at a tournament the day before he posted that advice, and he actually critiqued a set that, at the time, was TWO MONTHS old. I have every reason to give a slightly cocky response, especially given that I'd already fixed a lot of those issues. Excuse me for sounding a bit cocky, but a lot of growth came in between those two months.
 

FE_Hector

Smash Lord
Joined
May 26, 2015
Messages
1,420
Location
Raleigh, NC
Alright, so there were a few pretty obvious flaws to your games.

1.) Movement. Overall, it just seemed lacking. It felt like you were either just standing there or you were running at your opponent. There were a few moments where you had some nice DDing and WDing, but otherwise you seemed kinda stagnant. DD around to keep him guessing about where you're going to go and what you're going to do and to make it easier to avoid attacks he throws out when he elects to approach.

2.) Punish game. There were a few nice fair strings, I suppose, but otherwise you kinda struggled to link 3 hits together. Go for uairs when you get him stuck on platform and then just keep juggling him for as long as you can. When uthrow utilt doesn't work the other 15 times, why not try something different, maybe fthrow techchase regrabs so you can get him onto top plat with a uthrow? Adapt when you notice things aren't working.

3.) Edgeguarding. There were multiple times in the set where your opponent just sweetspotted with his upB and you tried to fsmash him off. One time, he messed up his sweetspot and you punished with a lazy fsmash instead of a super good dtilt. Just WD edgehog and handle it past there. Falcon should be easy to edgeguard.

4.) Shielding. Shield way less. The main time I saw you shielding was right after you teched. A better player would have noticed this and just grabbed you every time you teched. After you tech, just start running around again to make yourself harder to get.

It's been a while since I've critiqued Marth's, but that should be a pretty good starting point.
 
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