FE_Hector
Smash Lord
@
The Young Izzy Iz
Yeah, I suppose it's pretty cool practice, but I'd like to see that Marth in action.
Yeah, I suppose it's pretty cool practice, but I'd like to see that Marth in action.
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The spacing practice is very important to any Marth main. Overall, not bad. It would be interesting to see a match, even if it is against AI.@circuspig @ FE_Hector @ AudioSilver
Beware terrible skill level. Recorded this at 5 in the morning using 20XX meaning this is on an xbox controller not GC, that's why I'm having trouble with short hopping. The missed L-cancel's are completely my fault though and so is the mispaced aerials. The first video is me practicing a bunch of spacing against an AI. I set it up so that he'd shield-grab every time I did shield damage. When I get grabbed that's because I mispaced the aerial. The second video is me attempting to practice L-canceling. Whenever I flash white after the aerial I got the L-cancel, whenever I flash red I missed it. I think later on I start doing a lot of nairs at center stage, that's to practice the auto-cancel timing for nair out of shield.
Let me know what you think. I understand I did horrible here so I'll try to upload a better video when I can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNQITkhl8ig = Spacing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adx6L8uYYLc = L-canceling
Try to practice your spacing with different jumps (horizontally) instead of just doing the neutral short hop. It's pretty simple to space like the way you are in the video. It's essentially the same as getting tipper forward smashes when your opponent isn't moving. Not too hard.@circuspig @ FE_Hector @ AudioSilver
Beware terrible skill level. Recorded this at 5 in the morning using 20XX meaning this is on an xbox controller not GC, that's why I'm having trouble with short hopping. The missed L-cancel's are completely my fault though and so is the mispaced aerials. The first video is me practicing a bunch of spacing against an AI. I set it up so that he'd shield-grab every time I did shield damage. When I get grabbed that's because I mispaced the aerial. The second video is me attempting to practice L-canceling. Whenever I flash white after the aerial I got the L-cancel, whenever I flash red I missed it. I think later on I start doing a lot of nairs at center stage, that's to practice the auto-cancel timing for nair out of shield.
Let me know what you think. I understand I did horrible here so I'll try to upload a better video when I can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNQITkhl8ig = Spacing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adx6L8uYYLc = L-canceling
From what I saw, you had a few small issues.Refrenece: DeCoste'R or DCR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOLR-D0gLgg
Thought I might as well post something here.
This was my most recent streamed set vs Nikabod (Oregon). It went to game 3 and I feel like there were just a few punishes he had that really wrecked me. My friend told me that my stage control wasn't too great in this set.
Wondering what you guys think of it.
Thanks
also if you're just going to watch one game i'd watch game 2, which starts at 3:16.
No problem, Silver.@ The Young Izzy Iz @ FE_Hector
Thanks to both of your input and intense studying on my side, I finally figured out the only major flaw in my gameplay. (I was holding the L button too long after a Wavedash, which made me receive shield lag without actual shielding. The rest is many smaller flaws...)
I still have a ways to go, but I've made great progress and got better than I ever was at Brawl. (And better than I could imagine at Melee and Project M.)
Hopefully sometime soon, I'll be able to share some videos of play.
Thank you both again very much!
@ The Young Izzy Iz
Yeah, I suppose it's pretty cool practice, but I'd like to see that Marth in action.
Overall, not a bad performance! I can only imagine how difficult it would be for me to use an Xbox Controller for Melee, especially because of how much tech skill I use. Getting that GameCube Controller Adapter sounds like a great idea.@ FE_Hector @ AudioSilver @ DeadPigeon
Wish granted.
Set 1 The Izzy Iz vs Blaze
Fox Game 1
So the first thing I realized about 30 seconds into the match was that Dash Dancing was basically destroying this guy. He didn't know how to react to the constant pressure and it was pretty much grab -> combo -> re-grab -> death all game. Another thing you're going to notice through this game and the rest of the matches is that I flubbed my JC grabs constantly. This is mostly due to the xbox controller, hopefully I'll be able to get a GC controller adapter soon.
Fox Game 2
So this game he started abusing Fox's side-B which was an issue until I adapted around the 1:00 mark. From there I was able to bait it out with the dash dance. Instead of dash dancing forward back forward I baited with the forward into foxtrot which seemed to work just about every time and I got a couple of good grabs off because of this.
Set 2 The Izzy Iz vs Blaze
Link Game 1
So the highlights of this game are really the great ledge-stalls I did around the middle-mark that let me get back on stage for free. Most of the game is either me 0-60ing him into some kind of kill move or me getting dunked on relentlessly, I had great survival DI though so the last part didn't matter too much.
Link Game 2
By the time we got to this game I was pretty far into his head. I was reading a lot of his back-rolls/techs and just running all the way into re-grab. I did a lot of raw F-smashes this game mostly because I just wasn't getting punished/punished hard and the pay-off for the successful reads was enormous. I had a little trouble around the beginning/middle when the boomerang came into play because I wasn't ready but I eventually adapted. Most of the time I was able to either short-hop non-FF fair over it (because he never angled it) or run-up shield into forward roll grab / dash dance grab.
(Working on getting these games up right now)
Set 3 The Izzy Iz vs Ebola-chan
Marth Game 1
So right off the bat I realized I was getting read/punished on my risky dash dances a lot more so after about 30 seconds or so I started mixing things up with SHFFL fairs and other options. Game wasn't going to badly for my opponent until around the last minute or two. I got a ramen noodle at the edge and he started making poor decisions / trying to style which very quickly cost him the game.
Ganondorf Game 1
Match wasn't difficult, just the fact that Ganondorf's hits are so meaty. He got a D-Smash in the first ten seconds which put me at 30% and I think that caused me to start playing a little more defensively (usually I'm hyper aggressive). You can see me try to put up a wall of fairs/d-tilts and a few grabs which for the most part got punished with raw Ganon fairs: not my proudest moments. At one point we both do a stare down and I read an approach (his down-b) and punish with a wavedash back f-smash which felt pretty good. Mostly though this game was really sloppy on my part and I mostly won because my opponent made poor decisions at the ledge / got readable at the end of the match. Gonna' chock this one up in the 'loss' folder regardless of what the stocks say.
The plan is to get better recording software so I can catch the audio too then record some local matches. If I get far enough along I might get some microphones/headsets and set up a stream or something. All kinda' floating around in my head for now.Overall, not a bad performance! I can only imagine how difficult it would be for me to use an Xbox Controller for Melee, especially because of how much tech skill I use. Getting that GameCube Controller Adapter sounds like a great idea.
I'm still working on getting the visuals of my matches out. I'll probably end up just using my phone to record the screen, regardless of bad quality.The plan is to get better recording software so I can catch the audio too then record some local matches. If I get far enough along I might get some microphones/headsets and set up a stream or something. All kinda' floating around in my head for now.
Lol, my videos have been recorded with a camcorder on a tripod, courtesy of my bro. I'll watch your vids later, Izzy, I'm not home right now and I want to properly critique youI'm still working on getting the visuals of my matches out. I'll probably end up just using my phone to record the screen, regardless of bad quality.
Don't go easy on me, I want you to bring the pain.Lol, my videos have been recorded with a camcorder on a tripod, courtesy of my bro. I'll watch your vids later, Izzy, I'm not home right now and I want to properly critique you
You ask for the pain, you get it! lolDon't go easy on me, I want you to bring the pain.
xD
These were really fun to watch, but here's what I noticed:Reference: Yeros
Play by play is great, but I would also really appreciate pointing out any big holes I have in my gameplay in general. Thanks!
It all comes down to practice. You can study all you want, but if you don't practice your movement and bread n butters, then you won't be able to preform. The more you practice, the easier it becomes to control your character.I feel like I just have trouble controlling my character. Like I feel like I can't get around quick enough I guess, and I've seen Marth so much faster before..
These were really fun to watch, but here's what I noticed:
Against Fox:
- You were getting clipped by too many nairs. You were either trying to approach and you exited your dash range and couldn't go back or weren't expecting them.
- Threw out too many aerials that got you punished. Marth needs to stay grounded. You can throw out aerials, but you have to make sure they connect. It's not hard to call out Marth in the air, and punishing an aerial is something most people are good at.
- You exhaust your double jump too early when you're recovering and you often side b too close to the ledge. In this position, Fox can just b-air you and you'll lose the stock. Remember that Fox has a large area where he can jump from the ledge, b-air, and recover.
- You always seem to come down with an aerial from getting knocked into the air. It's a bad habit that a lot of Marth players have. If they opponent is expecting it, they can just wait it out and punish you.
Against Falcon:
-The same things that applied to Fox above apply here too.
-Too many rogue f-smashes. You didn't get punished too hard for them, but it isn't a good habit to get into.
-There were a few time you didn't continue the tech chase, and instead threw out another move (ex. 8:28). This resulted in a bad situation for you, when you could have gotten some free damage.
-Don't try to over complicate the edgeguard. Sometimes a run off f-air is all it takes to kill Falcon.
Against Sheik:
-Your dash dancing was pretty impressive! You were able to bait out f-tilts from Sheik and punish her, which isnt easy to do. Nice job!
-Again, you used your double jump too early. Sheik can easily punish this.
-Going for f-airs/n-airs on shield is not safe unless you perfectly space them, and even then getting a grab on Sheik is more important.
Tips:
-Try to stay grounded. Your dash dance game was really good against Sheik, and you should focus on that against fast fallers. One of the best ways to punish Fox's n-air is dash dance > pivot grab.
-Keep in mind why you're dash dancing. As Zhu & Cactuar said "think of dash dancing as moving toward and away from your opponent, not just back and forth on the stage". Dash dance with a purpose of doing something, and not just to move.
-Instead of aerials, you can opt for up tilts against aerial approaches. This can set up for a bigger punish and has great reach and low lag. Jab is also good, and can set up for grab.
-Going off stage takes some getting used to, but it's one of Marth's best tools as an edgeguard. When edgeguarding Falcon, you can d-tilt > drop zone f-air to eat his double jump > fair again > and recover.
Overall, I was impressed with your games, and you seem to understand Marth really well, it's just a few things that can be refined! Keep at it :D
If I have time in the morning I will look at your match & help you out!Reference code: Kopaka
My most recent streamed match. I win but I know there's a lot of things I can tighten up. Especially against more Falcos. Play by play, anything.
http://www.twitch.tv/sdmeleetv/b/676159880 The match starts at approx. 12:48
The first thing I noticed was that you were throwing out aerials that would often get crouch canceled and lead to a punish. Generally, Marth should never approach in the air against the spacies. There were times were when you were going for a f-air/n-air, the Falco would just b-air/n-air/shoot a laser and would set up for a punish.Reference code: Kopaka
My most recent streamed match. I win but I know there's a lot of things I can tighten up. Especially against more Falcos. Play by play, anything.
Thank you, all very very solid tips, and I definitely see them working. Much appreciated!The first thing I noticed was that you were throwing out aerials that would often get crouch canceled and lead to a punish. Generally, Marth should never approach in the air against the spacies. There were times were when you were going for a f-air/n-air, the Falco would just b-air/n-air/shoot a laser and would set up for a punish.
Throwing out counters worked in this instance, but are a bad habit that should be done less. Players with a harder punish game will pick up on that and just bait it out.
There were a couple times in the first game where Falco was trying to recover in a bad position, but you didn't take advantage of it. Marth's weak f-air has pretty decently horizontal knockback when setting up for an edgeguard against fast fallers. The inside hitbox sends at a weird lower angle where the tipper hitbox generally sends vertically. Try to make use of the different hitboxes on Marth's swings.
You had a few great dance dash grabs that punished Falco's unsafe n-air approaches. In the Stadium game, you were able to get a few strong punishes off of your grabs, but ended up getting Falco away from you by using n-air. For instance at 18:18 had you opted for an up-tilt, you could have chained it into another up-tilt or an up-air, and sent Falco away from the stage with a n-air later and with added percent. Just some food for thought.
Another thing I noticed was that you used your double jump too early to jump out of hitstun when recovering. Good Falco players will snipe this as soon as you jump, and your recovery will fail because of it. Try conserving your jump. Recovering high for Marth is typically a bad idea since he has a lot of end lag on his Dolphin Slash.
Overall, your punish game needs a little refining, but it picked up towards the end of the second game. You went for more juggles as opposed to getting Falco away from you. I liked that you went for the throw mixup at around 20:00, it caught the Falco off gaurd and you were able to f-smash him.
You have a pretty good understanding for Marth, and your decision making is pretty good. I would suggest a few things though:
-Work on your dash dance and bait out moves from Falco. The best offense is one that puts pressure on your opponent while not taking any damage.
-Practice power shielding. It's very useful against Falco and stops them from locking you down as hard.
-Learn to wavedash out of shield. In this set Falco wasn't putting much pressure on you, but being able to get out of his pressure at a higher level is a godsend.
-Try to focus on the different options that you could use to edgeguard Falco. Remember that his fire doesn't have a hitbox on startup so you can do WHATEVER you want while he's floating there.
Before anything, I gotta say GO NC!This is my most recent streamed set against a fox in my area: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QGTRg5Uaas My focus was on dash dancing and the neutral, but any advice is greatly appreciated!
You should not be focusing on the neutral and your dash dance right now. That is certainly the least of your worries. Your movement is gorgeous and you were outplaying him really hard.This is my most recent streamed set against a fox in my area: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QGTRg5Uaas My focus was on dash dancing and the neutral, but any advice is greatly appreciated!
Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you! Yeah the main thing I noticed was way too many forward smashes, since that match I've been focusing a lot more on punishing off of upthrow rather than tech chase f-smashes.Before anything, I gotta say GO NC!
A few seconds in, you tried to use an fsmash, I'm guessing to edgeguard. It's a bit weird on YS, but I'd recommend using dtilt instead. It comes out faster and has less lag.
In general, it looked like you were going for a lot of quick kills, using moves like nair and bthrow near the edge. As Marth, I'd recommend racking up damage with uthrow chaingrabs, uthrow -> utilt/uair, etc.
Be careful with Marth's smash attacks. He really doesn't like devoting to attacks too much, and his smash attacks are all pretty big commitments.
Your grab game was pretty solid. You've gotta work on comboing off of a single grab.
Instead of trying to read your opponents movement, it's way more beneficial to react to it or at least cover one option. For example, when he initiates Firefox off the edge, WD off to cover that option, then get back up and start comboing him when he doesn't go for the ledge.
Your movement was pretty good, but you were pretty predictable with it sometimes and got punished for it. When you Dash Dance, you're gonna wanna do it to disguise your goals, not just randomly in a manner that leaves you open.
I'd recommend working on your platform movement. It didn't look too good and seemed to keep messing you up.
You wasted some pretty good combo opportunities. For example, if Fox is above you on a platform, just utilt him. It's pretty hard to avoid and is easy to combo off of.
If you want to use a smash attack, make sure you c-stick it. You won't charge it up at all, so it's guaranteed to come out faster.
If you're going to approach, a SH fair is generally a way better idea than a SH nair. A well spaced nair can be used well as an occasional mixup or if you're retreating/fading, but it shouldn't be your primary move.
Watch your DI. I didn't really see any horrible DI, but one time you went straight into a usmash.
If you're going to use Dolphin Slash, try to make sure you sweetspot it. It's way more difficult to punish.
Make sure you hold onto your second jump. It's really really important.
Counter is a bad idea
The only other thing I have to say is what I say to everybody, myself included. Watch the pros. They got there for a reason.
I really appreciate the compliments! movement is definitely my favorite thing to practice, but it has left my punish game as outrageously weak. I didn't even notice how much I was using down throw until you pointed it out haha. This has got to be one of my first tournament matches against a non-scrubby fox and boy did I pay the price, I was coming from fighting mostly floaty characters and it was a HUGE difference. at that point during the recording I had almost no experience punishing fox. So far I've been working on it and will post an updated fox vid when I get to that point in bracket again. Thanks again for your kind words and help!You should not be focusing on the neutral and your dash dance right now. That is certainly the least of your worries. Your movement is gorgeous and you were outplaying him really hard.
But that means nothing if you can't capitalize. Your punish game is very weak. I wish I could get as many grabs as you did in game 1, your Marth is beautiful, but dude please upthrow. Back throw is very situational, dthrow is alright but you really wanna uthrow to get some combos. You started to uthrow in game 3 but you looked lost and didn't know how to follow up. Put some emphasis on juggling and learn how to edgeguard. You managed to get a ridiculous amount of grabs by the ledge, but I don't think you capitalized on any of them. Learn to cover the various options Fox has to get back to the stage on reaction, and don't be afraid to go out and reverse Up B or DJ Bair him when he starts his option. Use dtilt to cover pretty much any recovery to the ledge and use jabs to cover horizontal recoveries onto the stage. You'll have plenty of time to react to his Up B angled up to the platforms with utilt or uair.
Your Marth looks really good, just learn how to initiate and sustain combos. I feel like even though you won neutral close to80% of the time, your average punish was maybe somewhere between 9 - 15%. It was almost like you were playing Smash4 Marth with your hit and runs. You just got outpunished very hard by the opposing Fox. I think if you spent some time with a friend learning how to edgeguard in various situations (or watch M2K's 739 edgeguard video) it could really go a long way for your Marth play.
Practicing all kinds of follow ups, especially off uthrow, is a great idea.Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you! Yeah the main thing I noticed was way too many forward smashes, since that match I've been focusing a lot more on punishing off of upthrow rather than tech chase f-smashes.
I have some good resources for practicing tech chases and punishes, but how should I be practicing DI? is it just experience?
yeah my platform movement has kinda fallen off since I started working more on my dash dance. I honestly don'y know when marth should even be on a platform let alone wave landing and shield dropping through one.
how do I keep from being predictable? is it just a matter of more mix ups?
Thanks for all your help and go NC!
I didn't watch the entire set, but here's what I saw.Reference code: Kopaka
Basically a tight set against a Jigglypuff. I'd like to take solace in the fact that I can play this particular floaty matchup with Marth...at least kind of OK right now, though I do play Sheik against this character which makes it a little less stressful honestly. But playing Marth against her is just way more fun. I know I should stop grabbing near the ledge though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MCGJFLr3rA
Yeah, 4 months later after that set I still hear from my peers telling me to practice sweetspots and F-Smash even less. And the side B recovery. I'll definitely do my best to have those down the next most recent set I can get on stream.I didn't watch the entire set, but here's what I saw.
- Don't get greedy. Puff has some nice walls she can set up, but there are always holes. Only take advantage of opportunities.
- Sweetspot the ledge more. A lot of your recoveries went highand could have been punished well past what ended up happening.
- When recovering, do it in the following order to ensure maximum survivability: sideB stall, second jump, upB
- Maybe cool it with the fsmashes a little bit. You didn't get punished too much but they still got shielded.
Overall it was some very nice Marth play and I've just got to say keep it up!
Alright, sounds like a plan. I've got my 2nd ever tourney (1st was only 13 people lol) in a bit over a week, but I'm right around the 4-month mark myself. I'm not entirely sure how well I'll perform though just cuz I've got so little practice outside of my bros Sheik and friends Falcon... welp, I'll definitely post my sets if they get filmed.Yeah, 4 months later after that set I still hear from my peers telling me to practice sweetspots and F-Smash even less. And the side B recovery. I'll definitely do my best to have those down the next most recent set I can get on stream.
Alright, sounds like a plan. I've got my 2nd ever tourney (1st was only 13 people lol) in a bit over a week, but I'm right around the 4-month mark myself. I'm not entirely sure how well I'll perform though just cuz I've got so little practice outside of my bros Sheik and friends Falcon... welp, I'll definitely post my sets if they get filmed.
Yeah, my eyes are rarely on Marth (or Falco when I play him). It's a preipheral vision kind of butt-kicking. Anyway, as far as Sheik goes, it's really funny because he beats me on FD by less than a stock, and I kill him on every other stage. Hopefully in the next week or so he'll consent to play me a bit more, cuz I wanna brush up on the MU before tourney. He was out of state for a few weeks so I couldn't play, so instead I put work into my Falco.Take stride in the fact that you can practice against a Sheik. Dominating a Sheik in bracket, especially a not nooby one, is a really good feeling. You can definitely take matchup standards from the Sheik matchup and apply them to others, like Fox. One thing in particular that helped me immensly was when I was told to always watch my opponent.
Personally right now I like FD for Marth vs Sheik a lot. It's a great stage to get up-throw juggles and footsies. And there's no threat of any shield drop punishes either. Still though, you need to be very very careful with your spacing, especially if the Sheik can punish you hard, like, touch-you-your-stock-is-gone hard. It's mainly a comfort pick for myself though.Yeah, my eyes are rarely on Marth (or Falco when I play him). It's a preipheral vision kind of butt-kicking. Anyway, as far as Sheik goes, it's really funny because he beats me on FD by less than a stock, and I kill him on every other stage. Hopefully in the next week or so he'll consent to play me a bit more, cuz I wanna brush up on the MU before tourney. He was out of state for a few weeks so I couldn't play, so instead I put work into my Falco.
Yeah, that's part of the problem. He's got a very unique Sheik and it's really hard to keep a combo going on him. However, I've recently been working on the repeated fairs so hopefully my combo game against him will be a bit better. Thing with comboing him when he's in the air is that he'll use his DJ to avoid one hit and his aerial dodge to avoid the other. Suppose that's just something I've gotta adapt to though.Personally right now I like FD for Marth vs Sheik a lot. It's a great stage to get up-throw juggles and footsies. And there's no threat of any shield drop punishes either. Still though, you need to be very very careful with your spacing, especially if the Sheik can punish you hard, like, touch-you-your-stock-is-gone hard. It's mainly a comfort pick for myself though.