Niko45
Smash Master
I think there's too much lag from whiffing a dtilt, but if you anticipate good DI on the fthrow and skip the whiffed dtilt, all the options Winston laid out there should be viable.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.
- Thread starter P. O. F.
- Start date
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
What do you guys think about the Falcon MU in general? I used to think Marth ***** it. But I've actually been playing good Falcon's and I get 0 to deathed>offstage>edgeguarded 
All I know is to grab em and get his *** off stage ASAP.
At low % he Dthrows, if you DI away, he can re-grab. If you DI the Dthrow in, he just ***** you with nair.
After 30% he Uthrows>Uairs you and your DI doesn't matter
All I know is to grab em and get his *** off stage ASAP.
At low % he Dthrows, if you DI away, he can re-grab. If you DI the Dthrow in, he just ***** you with nair.
After 30% he Uthrows>Uairs you and your DI doesn't matter
Winston
Smash Master
Didn't I just post about how that stuff isn't guaranteed? >__>
I think Marth also has really high reward punishes... again not guaranteed like a chaingrab on FD is, but it's definitely comparable to what Falcon has. In most matches I see of the matchup the Marth does just fine with punishes, they just aren't optimal about finishing combos and edgeguarding to get efficient kills.
As for neutral game I feel like they both have a lot of trouble approaching each other and so its just about who baits/spaces/rpses better. So in my mind its close enough to even. Comparable punishes, edgeguarding, and neutral.
Furthermore if it's too low percent for him to uthrow uair you, and you just DI away a lot as he regrabs you, you'll generally reach the edge of the stage very quickly and not take much damage. Granted it's somewhat dangerous to be on the edge of the stage, but again its different from a guaranteed big punish.
I think Marth also has really high reward punishes... again not guaranteed like a chaingrab on FD is, but it's definitely comparable to what Falcon has. In most matches I see of the matchup the Marth does just fine with punishes, they just aren't optimal about finishing combos and edgeguarding to get efficient kills.
As for neutral game I feel like they both have a lot of trouble approaching each other and so its just about who baits/spaces/rpses better. So in my mind its close enough to even. Comparable punishes, edgeguarding, and neutral.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Thank you so much Winston. I thought you played Luigi for some reason....was I wrong?
I saw you at Zentih, I was trying to get in all the Marth dittos I could. I should of asked you to play. BTW I was the guy at MAD1 that thought you were Sleepyk lol (sorry about that)
I will def try all of this next time I play, thanks again.
I saw you at Zentih, I was trying to get in all the Marth dittos I could. I should of asked you to play. BTW I was the guy at MAD1 that thought you were Sleepyk lol (sorry about that)
I will def try all of this next time I play, thanks again.
Winston
Smash Master
Yeah I used to main Luigi, now I main Fox. I've been playing a lot of Marth in friendlies for a while though, especially vs. Wenbo's Falcon. And yeah I remember that at MAD, haha. SleepyK was like "that's so racist" when I told him that
And yeah Niko's right, I forgot since I guess in game I just do it by habit >__> You react to his DI on your throw and if he's too far away you don't dtilt, and just runoff dj back aerial or runoff aerial depending on where he is. I remember this working pretty much every time on all of Falcon's options unless I screwed up.
And yeah Niko's right, I forgot since I guess in game I just do it by habit >__> You react to his DI on your throw and if he's too far away you don't dtilt, and just runoff dj back aerial or runoff aerial depending on where he is. I remember this working pretty much every time on all of Falcon's options unless I screwed up.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Lol I'm sorry Sleepyk! I LOL'd hard, I didn't think you told em.
I will try that runoff>fair stuff. I also got some more ideas on Falcon I'll report back <3
EDIT: I found that if you do hit the Dtilt (and they aren't dead from that) You can runoff with a fair for a gimp.
DIing Falcon's Dthrow in, then DIing his Nair behind him is amazing, thanks Winston. That saved my *** A LOT earlier. I just need to stop DIing into the ****....
When Falcon is comboing Uairs shouldn't I DI down and away? Just wanna make sure I'm doing that correctly.
I will try that runoff>fair stuff. I also got some more ideas on Falcon
I'll report back <3EDIT: I found that if you do hit the Dtilt (and they aren't dead from that) You can runoff with a fair for a gimp.
DIing Falcon's Dthrow in, then DIing his Nair behind him is amazing, thanks Winston. That saved my *** A LOT earlier. I just need to stop DIing into the ****....
When Falcon is comboing Uairs shouldn't I DI down and away? Just wanna make sure I'm doing that correctly.
RinzlerOP
Smash Rookie
video from my first tournament; watching it myself, i spammed moves [Nair] and spaced badly. a critique and general advice would be much appreciated. i know i'm not good so don't hold back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQSxJktlDow
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQSxJktlDow
ILM
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2010
- Messages
- 218
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?p=PL33150A6140411AA1
This is a playlist of like 50 friendly matches. If someone could critique any of them I'd be grateful.
This is a playlist of like 50 friendly matches. If someone could critique any of them I'd be grateful.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Just a lil heads up you might want to change your sig. Censor Dodging infraction is headed your way.
Mahie
Smash Lord
Since you're all talking about the Falcon matchup, here's a 20€ MM of my marth vs a falcon, if anyone has imput/advice like always, go ahead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lo16Tuhkp0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lo16Tuhkp0
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
I watched a tiny bit of footage.
You should approach more with Dtilt
You also bair sometimes while Falcon is above on a platform, Uair if you can, If you think he's gonna shield/roll. Use nair instead. I saw you using nair on platforms <3
OverLord
Smash Ace
I got a lot of friendlies from this weekend.
Marth-Falco.
Check it out (sorry for camera quality, need a TVGrabber):
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDrcW5IvvPA
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB2k361K084
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T4BSOxKfo4
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf7-r8Q2wOw
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n12ZsRUbHa8
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XK7LoBabvU
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft10pXWNUzs
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqelgDZXTlo
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYxxefbHjSk
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grqwHKllNN4
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMioLSiN7VY
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhQdZU4Ohb4
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usa4wo7zCaU
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux3VorfDp6g
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6SjNOTm9lQ
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L0OclU33ME
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wfosjHWnls
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSfGt8ZFuIk
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkkSAWRAESg
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pVZp7xV56s
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkQuA4Y44i8
I played pretty aggressive 'cause I feel more confident this way against AvengerAngel, so this sometimes leads to bad follow-ups and/or bad DIs. I usually have a way more patient game.
Notice that we know each other pretty well, so things that look like bad habits (like f-smashing after ledge-hop) are kinda improvised stuff to trick him. *jonhs mode: off*
Marth-Falco.
Check it out (sorry for camera quality, need a TVGrabber):
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDrcW5IvvPA
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB2k361K084
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T4BSOxKfo4
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf7-r8Q2wOw
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n12ZsRUbHa8
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XK7LoBabvU
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft10pXWNUzs
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqelgDZXTlo
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYxxefbHjSk
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grqwHKllNN4
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMioLSiN7VY
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhQdZU4Ohb4
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usa4wo7zCaU
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ux3VorfDp6g
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6SjNOTm9lQ
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L0OclU33ME
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wfosjHWnls
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSfGt8ZFuIk
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkkSAWRAESg
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pVZp7xV56s
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkQuA4Y44i8
I played pretty aggressive 'cause I feel more confident this way against AvengerAngel, so this sometimes leads to bad follow-ups and/or bad DIs. I usually have a way more patient game.
Notice that we know each other pretty well, so things that look like bad habits (like f-smashing after ledge-hop) are kinda improvised stuff to trick him. *jonhs mode: off*
-Ice-
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2010
- Messages
- 83
Destructo !! :D
nice vids you realy played super agresive but thats a nice way to learn you shoud use more side b whene he is next to you cause avenger is realy jump happy but space it .
anyway your movement is cool and you became faster with you u airs
btw is avenger coming to beast 2 ? i want to play him haha
OverLord
Smash Ace
Thanks man, I started from your teachings
We will be at Beast2, with Aldwyn, Dax and Vincent too, already confirmed.
We will be at Beast2, with Aldwyn, Dax and Vincent too, already confirmed.
Archangel
Smash Hero
damn son, You getting off!
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
I think I actually found a way out of fox's shine>grab. I did it at No Johns this week....I wanna test it before I am completely wrong about this...lol.
OverLord
Smash Ace
you mean waveshine>grab or grab out of shine..?
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Yeah I ment the waveshine>grab. sorry I did get out of it, I forgot who I was playing. They probably just messed up and I got lucky as hell.
I did get out of it, I forgot who I was playing. They probably just messed up and I got lucky as hell.
OverLord
Smash Ace
I play PAL so I don't know well how it works, but I recall M2K DIing away the shine and dash away, and it worked fine.. always thought Marth slides too far away if you DI away to get grabbed reliably, in fact I don't see it so often..
but I certainly might be wrong :O
but I certainly might be wrong :O
mers
Smash Ace
WD OOS more! You missed so many punishes because you didn't get to him quickly enough.
Wo1f
Smash Apprentice
Everyone, please tear my Marth Playing apart, I suck at fighting spacies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM0lDmQl5ak&feature=channel_video_title
Do your worst.
PS. The second match is a little messed up video wise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM0lDmQl5ak&feature=channel_video_title
Do your worst.
PS. The second match is a little messed up video wise.
Walt
Smash Ace
Ok I'm not a marth player but some very obvious things:
1: you try to punish EVERYTHING with fsmash. don't do that. fsmash is only a good punish when it kills someone or sets up for an edgeguard. try to play without using fsmash for a bunch of hours, see how far you can go punishing with grab/utilt
2: edgeguarding. everyone in this game needs to know how to edgeguard, especially marth. I think you got like 2 fsmash edgeguards total throughout those 3 games. try dtilt, run off fair, watch some vids and learn how to edgeguard fox/everyone else. fsmash is just not always the answer.
3: usmash. I'm not sure if you're just messing up utilt a lot, but don't use usmash. it's marths worst move with very very specific spots where it's to be used and honestly never pressing it is a fine option to take. if you're just hitting up and A too quickly then practice utilt more, utilt is a goddamn ridiculous move.
there's more stuff but work on those things first
1: you try to punish EVERYTHING with fsmash. don't do that. fsmash is only a good punish when it kills someone or sets up for an edgeguard. try to play without using fsmash for a bunch of hours, see how far you can go punishing with grab/utilt
2: edgeguarding. everyone in this game needs to know how to edgeguard, especially marth. I think you got like 2 fsmash edgeguards total throughout those 3 games. try dtilt, run off fair, watch some vids and learn how to edgeguard fox/everyone else. fsmash is just not always the answer.
3: usmash. I'm not sure if you're just messing up utilt a lot, but don't use usmash. it's marths worst move with very very specific spots where it's to be used and honestly never pressing it is a fine option to take. if you're just hitting up and A too quickly then practice utilt more, utilt is a goddamn ridiculous move.
there's more stuff but work on those things first
Archangel
Smash Hero
You look as though you just watched some 04-07 Combo Videos and jumped up and grabbed the controller and just starting trying stuff....is that what happened?
If not you need to do some disable training. to get rid of the Fsmash abuse.
When you play in training vs computers or players disable the Fsmash option mentally. Do not use a single Fsmash during the matches or use a limited amount like 4 or 5 per match.(yeah you might lose but the point is to keep you from using that too much). I've found Disable training to be a fast killer of some of my long term bad habits.
Wo1f
Smash Apprentice
-I know I try and FSmash too much, Ive realized that but its so force of habit that once I do it I just think to myself "Dammit I did it again".
-Edgeguarding is something I'm getting better at, I'm not worried right now that'll come.
-95% of the USmashes are me messing up uptilts, and a lot of UAirs are too. When I hit up too fast, I USmash and when I try and slow things down, I end up jumping. Its a huge problem for me I don't know how to fix.
Nah, I've been playing Marth for basically the past 10 years (since the game came out), but I haven't done competitive stuff until about a year ago or so, but never practice as much as I would like. I like decently far from players so I don't have that much experience and from playing level 9s for sooooo long, I've picked up a HUGE amount of bad habits that I always get punished for.
BTW I've watched a huge amount of combo videos, my fingers are a little slow too I need to figure out how to make them faster XD
EDIT: Plus whenever I play spacies, I feel like I'm getting run circles around and I feel so slow and intimidated. It feels like theres nothing I can do considering how stupid their speed and recovery time is. I get frustrated and intimidated and then I just forget what I was doing, especially when they're at high percents, and I start to FSmash even more.
-Edgeguarding is something I'm getting better at, I'm not worried right now that'll come.
-95% of the USmashes are me messing up uptilts, and a lot of UAirs are too. When I hit up too fast, I USmash and when I try and slow things down, I end up jumping. Its a huge problem for me I don't know how to fix.
Nah, I've been playing Marth for basically the past 10 years (since the game came out), but I haven't done competitive stuff until about a year ago or so, but never practice as much as I would like. I like decently far from players so I don't have that much experience and from playing level 9s for sooooo long, I've picked up a HUGE amount of bad habits that I always get punished for.
BTW I've watched a huge amount of combo videos, my fingers are a little slow too I need to figure out how to make them faster XD
EDIT: Plus whenever I play spacies, I feel like I'm getting run circles around and I feel so slow and intimidated. It feels like theres nothing I can do considering how stupid their speed and recovery time is. I get frustrated and intimidated and then I just forget what I was doing, especially when they're at high percents, and I start to FSmash even more.
Palpi
Smash Hero
Critiquing at your level won't really do you any good when you still have a lot of the basics to learn. Practice wave dashing, wave landing, short hop fast falled aerials (SHFF's), L-Cancelling (if that was a problem, didn't notice). Doing the basic practice will get your finger up to speed for the combos you probably remember from all of the videos you have seen.
Archangel
Smash Hero
+1 this post
Wo1f
Smash Apprentice
I don't mean to sound rude, but you make it seem like I saw some Marth videos, and decided to fanboy him. Anyway, I can do most of it, the only problem is just finding when I should wavedash and such.
Palpi
Smash Hero
You misunderstood me. In short, there are too many basic flaws in your game to critique anything more than that, and I am not trying to sound like a ****, as for a suggestion, keep playing for the experience. Think of wavedashing as a way to get somewhere quicker than dashing because your initial dash can't be canceled until a certain point. Wavedashing can be good for baiting, if they missed a tech you can dash forward and wavedash backwards to trick them. Also wavedashing out of shield is very good for escaping pressure and going back to neutral position. These are just basic implication of wavedashing, but as you keep playing and implementing wavedashing into your game, you will start understanding more and more situations to wavedash.
ILM
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2010
- Messages
- 218
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?p=PL33150A6140411AA1
If someone could pick a match or two from that and critique me, that'd be cool. Preferably, one of the Falco/Marth ones.
If someone could pick a match or two from that and critique me, that'd be cool. Preferably, one of the Falco/Marth ones.
Winston
Smash Master
I picked like 3 matches arbitrarily and watched them
some thoughts:
Your non-CG punish game was pretty bad, but I can't tell if that's because you chose the wrong moves or you just messed up execution. Edgeguarding was a bit eh but I'm not sure if that's cause you were messing around cause it was friendlies or w/e. One thing I do want to point out though is DON'T use counter as your default edgeguard. It should be a last resort if you absolutely don't have time, or on the stages without good slopes (stadium, battlefield, yoshi's). Go down there to finish off space animals at every opportunity. It's not 2007 anymore and counter isn't a guaranteed kill unless they're too close to angle effectively. It still works against most people, but I'm pretty sure someday soon space animals will get good at getting around it.
Your powershielding seems pretty good, but I think you should also try to be more mobile in between the lasers instead of standing around and trying to powershield. Try to minimize the amount of time that the lasers are forcing you to stay still.
I know it was vs Falco so you weren't DDing as much, but the few times you did they were really tight and regular, which pretty much defeats what you want to be DDing for.
You shieldgrabbed him a lot when he did high dairs on shield, but it seemed like when he delayed them you usually got hit by a shine. You should sort of assume delayed dairs will be standard and act after the shine by default, and react with to high dairs with shieldgrab. By default, stuff like WD oos/fadeaway fair after shine is safer and still gives you a chance at some kind of punish depending on what they do. Good falcos will take advantage of WD oos and stuff if you play it too safe, but I think it's still better to default to that and adapt if necessary rather than default with shieldgrabs.
some thoughts:
Your non-CG punish game was pretty bad, but I can't tell if that's because you chose the wrong moves or you just messed up execution. Edgeguarding was a bit eh but I'm not sure if that's cause you were messing around cause it was friendlies or w/e. One thing I do want to point out though is DON'T use counter as your default edgeguard. It should be a last resort if you absolutely don't have time, or on the stages without good slopes (stadium, battlefield, yoshi's). Go down there to finish off space animals at every opportunity. It's not 2007 anymore and counter isn't a guaranteed kill unless they're too close to angle effectively. It still works against most people, but I'm pretty sure someday soon space animals will get good at getting around it.
Your powershielding seems pretty good, but I think you should also try to be more mobile in between the lasers instead of standing around and trying to powershield. Try to minimize the amount of time that the lasers are forcing you to stay still.
I know it was vs Falco so you weren't DDing as much, but the few times you did they were really tight and regular, which pretty much defeats what you want to be DDing for.
You shieldgrabbed him a lot when he did high dairs on shield, but it seemed like when he delayed them you usually got hit by a shine. You should sort of assume delayed dairs will be standard and act after the shine by default, and react with to high dairs with shieldgrab. By default, stuff like WD oos/fadeaway fair after shine is safer and still gives you a chance at some kind of punish depending on what they do. Good falcos will take advantage of WD oos and stuff if you play it too safe, but I think it's still better to default to that and adapt if necessary rather than default with shieldgrabs.
Niko45
Smash Master
I really like retreat fair oos more and more because it's better than WD out if they decide to shine into a SHL for more pressure. You can usually instant fair again after laser stun and hit them where as if you WD out the laser will lock you into poorer spacing and you'll at best be escaping from more shield pressure.
I can't emphasize enough how good it is to avoid getting caught in shield pressure. There's a certain amount of conditioning that Falcos want to establish with shield pressure and if they can't get it consistently you're much more likely to escape it when it does happen. I honestly can limit shield pressure opportunities now to like 2-3 times a match, sometimes less, and I think it largely comes down to never shielding when you're scared, always knowing when you HAVE to shield and never shielding when you are not actually under a direct threat. I feel like a lot of players shield because they think they're in trouble but then once they realize they're not, they've already given up too much neutrality and at that point their best option is to stay in shield and wait for shield pressure in order to try to escape it. If you can cut excess shielding out of your game Falco becomes much much easier.
It's sort of like when you see an empty hop grab attempt coming - just ****ing roll or something. Move. As soon as you sense that you don't need to be shielding, get out of there. Change position. The longer you sit in one spot the better positioning they will gain for their approach. Even if you just roll away asap you will at least be changing position and forcing them to readjust. Really you just want to play confidently and not shield unnecessarily ever, but in the instances where it happens, this is the next best thing you can do.
I can't emphasize enough how good it is to avoid getting caught in shield pressure. There's a certain amount of conditioning that Falcos want to establish with shield pressure and if they can't get it consistently you're much more likely to escape it when it does happen. I honestly can limit shield pressure opportunities now to like 2-3 times a match, sometimes less, and I think it largely comes down to never shielding when you're scared, always knowing when you HAVE to shield and never shielding when you are not actually under a direct threat. I feel like a lot of players shield because they think they're in trouble but then once they realize they're not, they've already given up too much neutrality and at that point their best option is to stay in shield and wait for shield pressure in order to try to escape it. If you can cut excess shielding out of your game Falco becomes much much easier.
It's sort of like when you see an empty hop grab attempt coming - just ****ing roll or something. Move. As soon as you sense that you don't need to be shielding, get out of there. Change position. The longer you sit in one spot the better positioning they will gain for their approach. Even if you just roll away asap you will at least be changing position and forcing them to readjust. Really you just want to play confidently and not shield unnecessarily ever, but in the instances where it happens, this is the next best thing you can do.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
I think wd OoS is the most underrated thing. WD OoS>Fsmash = Yummy
Winston
Smash Master
It's underrated at low levels and slightly overused at higher levels, from what I've seen
Bones0
Smash Legend
I agree with Winston. >_>
WD OOS is really just a more efficient roll, but your opponent reads you, you get punished just as hard as if you had rolled. <_<
>_> lol
WD OOS is really just a more efficient roll, but your opponent reads you, you get punished just as hard as if you had rolled. <_<
>_> lol
mers
Smash Ace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6-B5jTHYq0
Me vs Boss's Doc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ouh-t5Rlg0U
Me vs Korn's Fox
If any of you would critique these (there's only 3 short Marth games) I'd greatly appreciate it. I was incredibly nervous because it was my first time being recorded, so I choked hard, but no johns.
Things I noticed I need to change:
STOP FSMASHING
move sexier/bait with my movement and positioning
learn from the tricks that i fall for
Me vs Boss's Doc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ouh-t5Rlg0U
Me vs Korn's Fox
If any of you would critique these (there's only 3 short Marth games) I'd greatly appreciate it. I was incredibly nervous because it was my first time being recorded, so I choked hard, but no johns.
Things I noticed I need to change:
STOP FSMASHING
move sexier/bait with my movement and positioning
learn from the tricks that i fall for
Niko45
Smash Master
Mers:
I don't know how many times I will say this on smashboards but UP THROW DOC. Up throw him and position yourself to up tilt/uair/fair him as he tries to get back down.
Way too much excessive movement in game 1. You're DDing from a distance like this is vs Falcon and he's pill approach ****** you for it. Face Doc, jab/fair his pills and try to space fairs on him. Not just late fair. SHDFair is huge, early retreat fair into waveland is also good. Mixing up your fair game will create openings. Basically, your first stock on Yoshis is much more what you want to be doing all the time in this matchup, although your spacing was a little too close there too. If the doc likes to full hop pill you need to be calling him out for that and full hop fairing both his pill and him upon the start up. Then just string tons of fairs together, push him off stage and hopefully edgeguard.
Fair dtilt on shield is really "meh" as far as I'm concerned. It's pretty crappy pressure and if they just roll behind (like Boss does on you all the time) you are auto *****. I'm always much more conscious of getting rolled behind, so I'll fair shield and just wait to see what they do at that point, which is still a ton of pressure with less commitment. Fair dtilt imo is better against CCing, for say, a sheik or samus who is blatantly looking to trade a hit for a CC **** combo, that's when I feel spacing fair dtilt comes in really handy.
Ok, even tho I said up throw doc, fthrow is still **** if you actually take advantage of it, which you're not. Just eyeballing his DI in the video I can tell you you could have fthrow dash attacked him for big combos off of most/all your fthrows.
You are double jumping immediately out of things like back throw off stage or any type of hit that puts you out hovering near the ledge. Both the Doc and Fox blatantly committed to calling you out on it. Keep that jump. Use fair on reaction to protect yourself if you have to. Marth is so free if he jumps out like this a lot.
You're misspacing as Doc wavelands up from the edge. Wavedash back down tilt is your friend here. You can anticipate dtilting his shield and react to what he does after. You might get a quick DD grab. Maybe you SHDFair quickly and catch him coming out. After you've conditioned him to waveland up with his shield, you can just start grabbing him. :D
Vs Fox:
Play faster.
Too much tech chasing/dropped tech chases. Up throw is pretty good against Fox lol. I want to touch on tech chasing tho cause I see a lot of Marths do this. Marth can't really tech chase into regrabs and expect to cover all tech options (at least not against Fox/Falco/Sheik). You need to compartmentalize your tech chase where you say "I will look for him to do X, and if he does, I will regrab. BUT if he does Y, I will just dtilt that on reaction." In general you try to regrab or continue a tech chase too much when it's clearly been dropped, which then gives fox big free openings to wreck you. Even off of a dropped tech chase, you still have a stage position advantage that you might be able to exploit in order to keep your momentum going. Don't throw it all away going for a tech chase that isn't there. Tech chase isn't all or nothing, it's all about maintaining momentum, which Marth doesn't necessarily need to always be hitting someone to have.
You have to turn these weak fsmashes into pivot grabs/utilts. So often you end up with frame advantage but the doc/fox is behind you so you're kinda just like Fsmash! but really you should practice being able to turnaround grab quickly and comfortably in any situation.
I don't know how many times I will say this on smashboards but UP THROW DOC. Up throw him and position yourself to up tilt/uair/fair him as he tries to get back down.
Way too much excessive movement in game 1. You're DDing from a distance like this is vs Falcon and he's pill approach ****** you for it. Face Doc, jab/fair his pills and try to space fairs on him. Not just late fair. SHDFair is huge, early retreat fair into waveland is also good. Mixing up your fair game will create openings. Basically, your first stock on Yoshis is much more what you want to be doing all the time in this matchup, although your spacing was a little too close there too. If the doc likes to full hop pill you need to be calling him out for that and full hop fairing both his pill and him upon the start up. Then just string tons of fairs together, push him off stage and hopefully edgeguard.
Fair dtilt on shield is really "meh" as far as I'm concerned. It's pretty crappy pressure and if they just roll behind (like Boss does on you all the time) you are auto *****. I'm always much more conscious of getting rolled behind, so I'll fair shield and just wait to see what they do at that point, which is still a ton of pressure with less commitment. Fair dtilt imo is better against CCing, for say, a sheik or samus who is blatantly looking to trade a hit for a CC **** combo, that's when I feel spacing fair dtilt comes in really handy.
Ok, even tho I said up throw doc, fthrow is still **** if you actually take advantage of it, which you're not. Just eyeballing his DI in the video I can tell you you could have fthrow dash attacked him for big combos off of most/all your fthrows.
You are double jumping immediately out of things like back throw off stage or any type of hit that puts you out hovering near the ledge. Both the Doc and Fox blatantly committed to calling you out on it. Keep that jump. Use fair on reaction to protect yourself if you have to. Marth is so free if he jumps out like this a lot.
You're misspacing as Doc wavelands up from the edge. Wavedash back down tilt is your friend here. You can anticipate dtilting his shield and react to what he does after. You might get a quick DD grab. Maybe you SHDFair quickly and catch him coming out. After you've conditioned him to waveland up with his shield, you can just start grabbing him. :D
Vs Fox:
Play faster.
Too much tech chasing/dropped tech chases. Up throw is pretty good against Fox lol. I want to touch on tech chasing tho cause I see a lot of Marths do this. Marth can't really tech chase into regrabs and expect to cover all tech options (at least not against Fox/Falco/Sheik). You need to compartmentalize your tech chase where you say "I will look for him to do X, and if he does, I will regrab. BUT if he does Y, I will just dtilt that on reaction." In general you try to regrab or continue a tech chase too much when it's clearly been dropped, which then gives fox big free openings to wreck you. Even off of a dropped tech chase, you still have a stage position advantage that you might be able to exploit in order to keep your momentum going. Don't throw it all away going for a tech chase that isn't there. Tech chase isn't all or nothing, it's all about maintaining momentum, which Marth doesn't necessarily need to always be hitting someone to have.
You have to turn these weak fsmashes into pivot grabs/utilts. So often you end up with frame advantage but the doc/fox is behind you so you're kinda just like Fsmash! but really you should practice being able to turnaround grab quickly and comfortably in any situation.
Winston
Smash Master
Niko's advice looks beast so I don't have anything good to add but I'm interested in this bit:
Are you implying he can against Falcon for some reason? Fox's techs are worse than Falcons. Or do you mean some bad character that nobody plays?
Niko45
Smash Master
I was thinking more like Ganon or DK. Royally ****ed characters after grab. Falcon too though.
Idk, I guess I'm just more hesitant against Fox because it's so easy for him to flip the momentum massively if you **** up a tech chase, combined with the fact that up throw is guaranteed **** I just don't really ever try to full out regrab tech chase fox ever. Sometimes I'll like dthrow dtilt him as a mixup or something, but I do notice that in general I have gotten more bold about regrabbing things like Fox's tech away (not off a grab tech chase, but more off a general hit + tech chase) and it has paid off. Maybe my reactions are just better now or I've learned the timing better but I feel like I'm confidently grabbing Fox *just* before he can shine/sidestep me nowadays.
But like Falcon sucks at flipping momentum off a tech chase unless you miss it by a mile. Falcon will be looking to reset to neutral off a missed tech chase more whereas fox/falco/sheik are going straight into combos/**** stocking you. This also applies to like, getting getup attacked off a missed tech too. It's more that the risk reward isn't there like it is against some other characters, plus guaranteed up throw stuff on spacies is "safer."
I love fthrow/dthrow tech chasing sheik, for the record, I just rarely look for regrabs. Something like fthrow sheik, walk towards her a little, dtilt if she techs in front of me or tipper if she teched back behind me.
I'm kind of going off on a tangent now but TL;DR = don't always look for regrabs off your tech chases and if you blew a tech chase don't go the extra mile of throwing away your stock by committing to the would-be tech chase well after it's not there.
Idk, I guess I'm just more hesitant against Fox because it's so easy for him to flip the momentum massively if you **** up a tech chase, combined with the fact that up throw is guaranteed **** I just don't really ever try to full out regrab tech chase fox ever. Sometimes I'll like dthrow dtilt him as a mixup or something, but I do notice that in general I have gotten more bold about regrabbing things like Fox's tech away (not off a grab tech chase, but more off a general hit + tech chase) and it has paid off. Maybe my reactions are just better now or I've learned the timing better but I feel like I'm confidently grabbing Fox *just* before he can shine/sidestep me nowadays.
But like Falcon sucks at flipping momentum off a tech chase unless you miss it by a mile. Falcon will be looking to reset to neutral off a missed tech chase more whereas fox/falco/sheik are going straight into combos/**** stocking you. This also applies to like, getting getup attacked off a missed tech too. It's more that the risk reward isn't there like it is against some other characters, plus guaranteed up throw stuff on spacies is "safer."
I love fthrow/dthrow tech chasing sheik, for the record, I just rarely look for regrabs. Something like fthrow sheik, walk towards her a little, dtilt if she techs in front of me or tipper if she teched back behind me.
I'm kind of going off on a tangent now but TL;DR = don't always look for regrabs off your tech chases and if you blew a tech chase don't go the extra mile of throwing away your stock by committing to the would-be tech chase well after it's not there.
OverLord
Smash Ace
Niko knows his ****.
mers
Smash Ace
Holy **** that was amazing, Niko. Thanks so much, I really appreciate it.