Elements and Attributes Mafia - Game Over!

[~ Gheb ~]

Not impressed by Sword's case on Frozen.

I'm not fan of leaving JTB/FF/Hando sitting there for us to deal with.

What do you think about the connection between Sword and JTB I have mentioned?

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

I'm not fan of leaving JTB/FF/Hando sitting there for us to deal with.

@Mod: Can you replace JTB/Hando.

And they'll be dealt with. What does this mean though, are you not behind Swords dying toDay?

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Swords, what is your opinion of AM's play D1 and ToDay?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not impressed by Sword's case on Frozen.




What do you think about the connection between Sword and JTB I have mentioned?

How he treated FF anf JTB differently is odd, I havent looked in depth at his FF case yet but we need to deal with the 3 inactives.

And they'll be dealt with. What does this mean though, are you not behind Swords dying toDay?

No they won't. Swords has some form of accountability with him targetting AM.

We have no vig or he would have shot one of those 3 night 1. I refuse to consider saving the shot because there was no single reason to save it with these coasters around.

Not really behind Swords dying over those 3 with what info we have on the table.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Eh.

I'm the water element. Every Night, I can cast a "water bubble" around a target of my choosing, which slows down any projectiles (like bullets) for a Night. I protected AM last Night.

Preemptive answer to a question I'm sure that I'm going to be asked:

"That a doctor. Why didn't you CC PJB yesturDay?"

Because I can't outguess the mod. If this wasn't a non vanilla game I much more likely have CC someone else claiming a protect, but since I have only a bit of an idea what Gova's set up is, I decided that CC PJB would have been WIFOM.

Does your ability have a name?

 

[Kantrip]

Waiting on you. And also, Swords is getting lynched with or without you.

Not necessarily.

Talk to me about the possibility of AMscum bussing PJB D1. Then talk to me about the possibility of AM being scum with Sword.

 

[Kantrip]

For **** sakes RR just worry about players that are actually here, we are not lynching the inactives toDay unless I decide all of the active players are town.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

@Sworddancer

- Do you realize that your attacks against me / Kantrip and your initially indirect defenses of PJB look very unfavorable on you right now? How are you going to defend yourself?
- Do you agree that the way JTB jumped on the PJB wagon and the fact that he ended up voting nobody is good enough a reason to lynch him toDay? If not, what could his pro-town intentions be?
- Do you realize that your reasoning for attacking frozen over JTB is not intellegible to ... just about anybody? Are you going to do something about that or just let your pushes go nowhere, like yesterDay? Do you understand that this looks like you're deflecting suspicion from one slot to another for no reason? What conclusion would you draw from that if it were a different player than you?
- How are you going to justify not having had a vote dropped at the end of yesterDay? Why shouldn't I hold the fact that your pushes and wagon attempts have gone nowhere against you?
- If you were not yourself, would you agree that the facts and connections seem to point towards a PJB - Sworddancer - JTB scumteam at the moment?
- If you're actually serious about Frozen being the play, who could you imagine being the 3rd scumbag in the mix [I'm assuming a 3-man team]?
- You're known to be a player who prefers to be town over scum. Can you see where I'm coming from when I say that your play does not match your town meta? Your play is pretty weak and that's not something I'd ever say about towndancer. Why is this game the exception to the rule and not just you being scumdancer this time around?

-I do not think that there is anything scummy about me attacking you. My attack on you was quite genuine and I think anyone reading through the thread should see that. I do think one might find my attack on Kantrip somewhat scummy because I never followed up on it. I do not think my "indirect" defense on PJB is scummy, because I disagree with your framing of the situation. You're telling me that my intentions were to defend PJB when in reality they were to attack you because I did not like your push on PJB. If you're referring to how Legolz said that the "PJB wagon was justified" while still defending him an attacking you in post 180, then all I can do is ask you to believe me when I say that me and Xonar decided that pressure on PJB was good. I don't want to play "blame the hydra" but Xonar made post 180 and I do think he should have thought about his words a bit better rather than calling both the PJB justified and then proceeding to just defend PJB completely.
-Yes, I agree with you on this.
-To be fair you've called me out on this before I even had a chance. Also I only started attacking FF at the end of yesturDay, right about when PJB was lynched. You make it seem like this is something I was doing for awhile which is simply not true.

I layed out my case against FF. You can say that you're not impressed with it but you wanted me to "do something about it," so there it is.

Also as I have already said JTB and FF are pretty interchangeable. Even earlier toDay I rated JTB a 7/10 for being PJB's partner and FF a 8/10, hardly a difference.

-For the same reason that people shouldn't hold the fact that your inactivity wagons went nowhere against you? Because it's not fair when simply hardly anyone agrees with you? Because I never made a huge attempt to u push my wagons through? "Why didn't you then?" Because I hardly got the chance. The wagon that I wanted to go only became apparent to me by the end of the Day and I was thinking about the other inactives being thrown around.
-I would think that me and PJB were connected from an objective PoV. I could also see why one might think me and JTB were connected from PoE and the fact that I stated that I found FF slightly scummier than JTB, although I wouldn't take the latter point as a huge connection.Why ask me this?
-Any of the other inactives from PoE/maybe you. If FF is scum (and especially if JTB is not) then this would have been the second time you've pushed back a scum lynch. Not a convincing case against you by itself but it's noteworthy. Besides from you, I see no reason why JTB/perhaps (but less likely) another inactive couldn't also be scum with FF.
-There's no way I can give a solid answer to this question. My answer will be simply a matter if you believe me or not.

My answer is this: The cookie simply did not crumble in my favor this game. I focused mostly on PJB Day 1 because that's just what interested me, and that's what the in game dialogue was mainly about. The first half of Day 1 was me attacking you, followed by me defending PJB. I really did feel that PJB was just bad town who occasionally did scummy that I dismissed as just bad town mistakes. Had PJB flipped town, I wouldn't be under this type of pressure right now. But he did flip scum, and when he flipped scum I knew I was in trouble. It's pretty much impossible to deny the apparent connections between us.

"You also haven't been scum hunting much."

True. This is partly due to time constraints, and partially due to procrastination. But I'm trying to give my reads out now, take it or leave it. I can't force myself to find other people besides FF/JTB scummy because I'm just convinced in thier scumminess.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

For **** sakes RR just worry about players that are actually here, we are not lynching the inactives toDay unless I decide all of the active players are town.

**** no.

Not when this is how these players coast and win as scum.

 

[Kantrip]

**** no.

Not when this is how these players coast and win as scum.

If no replacements can be found, let any replaceable slots get modkilled. Otherwise, let them be replaced. You think I'm town right? So just trust me on this and stop pushing this point. Please.

Toss in your input about the possibility of an AM/Sword scumteam.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Not impressed by Sword's case on Frozen.




What do you think about the connection between Sword and JTB I have mentioned?

Why not?

Does your ability have a name?

No, I'm just the water element.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If no replacements can be found, let any replaceable slots get modkilled. Otherwise, let them be replaced. You think I'm town right? So just trust me on this and stop pushing this point. Please.

Toss in your input about the possibility of an AM/Sword scumteam.

You mean like how Ryker should have been replaced in GS multiple times? Or how in Prisoners dilemma where Kuz was in the game not posting for almost 2 full weeks?

Nope, I will not put faith in the mod to deal with the problem. When I know in multiple games this didn't happen, over and over and over.

 

[Kantrip]

Toss in your input about the possibility of an AM/Sword scumteam.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not likely.

 

[Kantrip]

Do you now think Sword is town after his claim?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

More likely he is and I would rather deal with the inactive problem.

 

[Handorin]

Ryu, while I know the inactivity is extremely frustrating, you need to go look somewhere else. Seriously. There is little I can do about it, and I'm sure the other two might be experiencing something similar. I am not coasting. I have little clue as to what has happened since the beginning of D2 and only occasionally pop in the thread to skim what's happening. You will gain absolutely nothing from lynching us when we will get replaced or modkilled. If neither, well woop de doo. Play the game with the players that are here. It's unlikely that both of the other inactives are also scum. Maybe one. But it's highly probable it's within the actives. Put on your brain cap and play the game.

In fact, I'll go post right now I'll need a replacement and I'll forward my PM and everything.

 

[Kantrip]

I would like to propose a compromise. You said your power is not very useful, correct?

Is it targeted?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ryu, while I know the inactivity is extremely frustrating, you need to go look somewhere else. Seriously. There is little I can do about it, and I'm sure the other two might be experiencing something similar. I am not coasting. I have little clue as to what has happened since the beginning of D2 and only occasionally pop in the thread to skim what's happening. You will gain absolutely nothing from lynching us when we will get replaced or modkilled. If neither, well woop de doo. Play the game with the players that are here. It's unlikely that both of the other inactives are also scum. Maybe one. But it's highly probable it's within the actives. Put on your brain cap and play the game.

In fact, I'll go post right now I'll need a replacement and I'll forward my PM and everything.

Can you try and read up and give some reads/content?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I would like to propose a compromise. You said your power is not very useful, correct?

Is it targeted?

No comment.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Not necessarily.

Talk to me about the possibility of AMscum bussing PJB D1. Then talk to me about the possibility of AM being scum with Sword.

Possible. I have seen Ryker/Kev straight bus d1 and carry on from there. He was strongly behind that push, but I can't let that push influence my read on him. I have to see what other actions he's doing along with that. Now scum with Swords? Less possible. Rake talked to me about this, and asked "Why would AM scum do that, instead of just push an inactive or something?" And I was like "I don't know." Yet, I do know that AM was derailing the thread, fishing for our role without no reason at all (He says there is one but he has not shown this) and really believes Swords is legit just because of that one action? It had me a bit confused. I was going to re-read, and stopped thinking "This may be a buddy trying to hard defend" but noticing Ryu's same stance... after doing some gambit and disliking JTB and Swords. Now he is really concerned with inactives.

Talk to me about the possibility of ryu scum. (With AM)

Another thing is, AM's actions simply lead to wifom, and doesn't invalidate Swords actions.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

I mean, I feel it is less possible he may be scum with swords, but rather scum who knows Swords may be town. I get the feeling he's not actually pushing a direction himself, but instead asks me what we should do. For no real reason. I feel he's letting me push FOR him, so he can paint it however he likes later. That's what I get from it and I don't like how he hasn't really gotten to me.

 

[Kantrip]

No comment.

Well you're no fun.

Possible. I have seen Ryker/Kev straight bus d1 and carry on from there. He was strongly behind that push, but I can't let that push influence my read on him. I have to see what other actions he's doing along with that. Now scum with Swords? Less possible. Rake talked to me about this, and asked "Why would AM scum do that, instead of just push an inactive or something?" And I was like "I don't know." Yet, I do know that AM was derailing the thread, fishing for our role without no reason at all (He says there is one but he has not shown this) and really believes Swords is legit just because of that one action? It had me a bit confused. I was going to re-read, and stopped thinking "This may be a buddy trying to hard defend" but noticing Ryu's same stance... after doing some gambit and disliking JTB and Swords. Now he is really concerned with inactives.

Talk to me about the possibility of ryu scum. (With AM)

Another thing is, AM's actions simply lead to wifom, and doesn't invalidate Swords actions.

He wasn't going for Sword at the beginning of the Day. We convinced him it was a good wagon and he jumped on. Then Sword's claim gave him a full 180 because he had information that confirmed he was targeted by a protective role of the water element. This is not a scum fake-claim by AM unless Sword is his partner and he's saving him. AM is not scum without Sword. Sword's role has been confirmed by AM, and it is not a role or flavour I'm seeing in scum's hands. Sword is not scum without AM.

I still maintain that Red Ruy is town, but extremely difficult to work with.

I'd like AM to answer my questions and then I'll know 100% which direction I'm going in for the Day.

(It'll likely be JTB)

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

True, it probably isn't, but I think one of them holds scum. Do you agree that one of them may hold a scum, or do you have AM as solid town? Also, what do you think of AM's recent play, what with derailing the thread away from Swords, and to Gheb and I for some unknown reason? Do you think it's legit for him to just believe in the action that was sent to him?

Also about Ryu, I feel when you notice someone being difficult to work with (I mean not just in one skirmish, but entirely) then that person may just be scum trying to get their own scum way (I have learned this from experience). That's what I get from him. I will do a re-read though and show you what I think about his play.

 

[Kantrip]

It's an interesting take, but I take it as Ruy being obtuse. He doesn't play the uncooperative for his own motives scum game. Not well, at least.

I do not have AM as solid town. I'm questioning a lot about his play, and helping me get the PJB lynch doesn't make it all better. That said, his actions don't show any scum motive unless he was setting up from the beginning of the game to bus Joker and ride the game out with Sword/Xonar. There is no reason he derails from Sword like he is now as scum unless he's saving his mate after being on the wagon for a while (distancing). I am not entertaining the idea of AM scum without Sword. Sword scum without AM is pending on my responses.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Gheb Foxy, did your neighbor abilties with betray etc have a name to them?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Also about Ryu, I feel when you notice someone being difficult to work with (I mean not just in one skirmish, but entirely) then that person may just be scum trying to get their own scum way (I have learned this from experience). That's what I get from him. I will do a re-read though and show you what I think about his play.

Which is no different from what I do i every game?

I've butted heads with Swiss/Ryker/WL/OS/Kuz and been non helpful with them when I disagreed with the direction.

 

[Kantrip]

And how's that been working out for ya?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hit or miss depends if I **** up or not.

 

[Kantrip]

Foxy, RR is town. This is non-negotiable.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

RR, no there isn't a special name. It's just betray/ally.

Also Kantrip, let me show you what i'm seeing first before you decide that. Can you do that for me? Then once I show you, you can tell me what you think of it. We can come up with compromises from there.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Okay so I decided that I'm kinda useless right now I'm going to just do things my own way. Earlier Kantrip asked me what I thought about Hando, and I don't believe my response was completely well informed. I don't think anyone has really delved into his slot so I decided to ISO him.

Spoiler

38: Null. Simply crumbing a role and asking a question that I'm not sure will get us too far.
110: Simply pressuring S&C to answer his 38. Null.
114: Disagrees with Kantrip. I can see where Handorin is coming from here. Small +0.2 for him.
127: Handorin should have explained why he was seeing things from FF's/Kantrip's PoV. Minorly don't like how he gives up his own PoV so fast. Do like how he's committed to getting S&C to answer his 38, even if the questions are useless. -0.1 for Handorin.
138: If scum then bussing PJB here. Nothing really indicates that it's a bus though, and he is attacking PJB for something that I can agree with. +0.2 for Handorin.
143: Asks a simple question, completely not telling.
169: So mixed on this, but I'm reading dumb over scum. He COMPLETELY negletes to mention why he thinks Kantrip is PJB's partner, instead just setting up the premise that Kantrip bussed PJB from the getgo and leaving us to take it or leave it. But if he's bussing PJB then why the **** would he do it like this? So he can have other targets to go after after PJB dies? I just can't read any bad intention from this at all. Null at worse, but I'll give Handorin +0.2 for it.
195: Votes PJB without much fanfare. Null, kinda goes along with his last post.
236, 237, 239: Don't like these posts. Even if they fit in with the dumb over scum theory that I'm forming, they come off as forced. Honestly, who could possibly be concerned with finding the third scummate at that point in time? Seems like forced content. -0.2 for Handorin.
303: States that he thinks PJB is less likely to be scum then his other scum picks (Foxy and Kantrip), but that he thinks PJB's lynch is simply more viable. I actually like this. Why would he justify staying on his mate's wagon by simply saying that he found his lynch more viable? Especially so early into the Day? Maybe I'm overthinking this but +0.2 for Handorin.
Do wish Handorin actually went into his reads (why he liked Kantrip and Foxy as scum more than PJB and why he somewhat doubted PJB being scum). -0.2 from Handorin.
304: Null. I kinda question why he's agreeing with one of his scum pick's points on PJB who he's supposedly less confident on but the content of Kantrip's post that Handorin quoted goes along with Handorin calling PJB a"more viable lynch" in his 303.
319: Null, a simple question.
346: Stalling, but maybe rightfully so. Need to check to see if Handorin follows up o this. Otherwise null.
373: And he doesn't. -0.3 from Handorin.
390: Ugh, why? You still need to be more descriptive when you make normative statements like this. -0.1 from Handorin.
423: But you haven't made it clear why you want PJB dead! This isn't really scummy but just annoying and anti-town. If you don't think you've made something clear, then just make it clear then. -0.1 from Handorin.
448: Don't like how he's making a post just to help someone with something not related to the game. -0.2 from Handorin.
462: Gooooooooood point, you need to follow up, but I like it. +0.1.
580: Pushing hard on PJB based off of misinformation. There's something very townie about that that I can't quite place my finger on. +0.3 for Handorin.
582: Kind of an irrelvent reply to PJB, but the initial point still stands.
585: Okay I do not know what to make of this unvote. There's no reason to make this out an one way. Null.
591: Don't like. Noncommittal. Doesn't state what other plan he wants to pursue nor does he actually pursue them. -0.3
623: Simple reply to PJB. Null.
630: Still needs to be more descriptive with his reads, and he actually needs to pursue them. -0.2.
634: I just don't get Handorin sometimes. Why are they his scummates? Also, I thought you said that you didn't mind PJB in your last post? Your stance just isn't golding up for me. -0.3.
645: Ugh, WIFOMie last line that Handorin should have gone into more. His point about not joining a wagon because he knew that he wouldn't get anyone on it is fair, I guess. I don't necessarily like how he allowed himself to be bullied back onto the PJB wagon, but ehhhh . . . it's hard to hold someone accountable for being bullied back onto a scum wagon. Overall, -0.1 from Handorin.
646: Then EXPRESS your view. I think from my ISO on you I kinda get why you like the PJB wagpn but you've waffled on him so it's hard to tell what alignment you actually think he is.
648: Null.
Not really liking Hando's response to a minor bit of pressure. -0.1 from Hando.

A theme with Hando is that he constantly expresses that h has stronger scum picks than PJB but he never actually pursues them. He seems wishy washy on PJB. By the end of the reread I don't know if Hando thought PJB was scum or if he thought he was just a good policy lynch. In Hando's defense, him bussing PJB pretty much the whole Day by calling him a policy lynch seems odd for scum. Overall calling him null scum, still not as good as a lynch as FF/JTB.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Anyways, I'm up for taking requests if anyone wants to see me comment on someone in particular.

Also Foxy, RR really is town. Even your scum pick thinks so.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Current reads:

1. Handorin - Null
2. BadWolf28738 - Null but trusting the badtown reads of him others are espousing
3. Aggressive Mediation (Ryker/WashedLaundry) - Slight town read (the slot is erratic and lacks a sense of genuine direction an I feel like scum AM would actually do its best to have a clear agenda and master plan. Don't know this hydras meta well though)
4. Dark Horse - Null, slightly scummish. Too backgroundy in behavior for the types of comments he's made throughout the game.
5. Gheb_01 - Town. Very much sympathetic to the analysis provided that showcased how sarcastic and combative PJB was when butting heads with him which I highly doubt was an orchestrated bus. Combined with his neighbor claim that solidifies the read.
6. JTB - Null
8. Potassium - Null, very slight scum read but I cant quite put my finger on why. Still trying to find time to ISO and actually figure out what my guts trying to tell me
9. Sworddancer. - Scum lean. The protect role as he claimed sounds reasonable, but I very much doubt that what he claimed is actually what his role is in its entirely. Wouldn't be surprised to see him flip scum with a power to the effect of delaying results or actions that target the player he targets for a full phase or something. That would allow him to fakeclaim being this delayed doctor claim he's using, and still be able to benefit from "protecting" power players when in actuality he's targeting them to prevent info gather roles from clearing them or otherwise gathering useful info on them in order to help reduce the towns info pool. Also generally not a fan of his attacks against me in general but I'll be writing a separate post about that soon.
10. Red Ruy - Town lean based on his seemingly complete lack of caution this game. Almost like he's not really trying to be taken seriously this game. Could be a new scum trick or something that he's working on for meta reason but really doubt it
12. Foxy the Silver Fox (Anomandaris_Rake/Ranmaru) - Town via Gheb's claim and read on him

I'll be following up later tonight with some more pointed commentary on stuff but I have some hockey to play for now. If anyone needs expansion on any of these reads please do request and I'll be sure to follow up with em.

 

[Kantrip]

@FF: Talk to me about AM's confirmation of Sword's power. Is it legit? If so, why did Sword target AM?

I like how you worded the RR read. Really curious to see what you have to say about my slot, that's the read of yours that could use the most expanding, in my opinion.

@Sword: Comment on FF after those reads, please

 

[Kantrip]

Also FF I disagree with AM's slot lacking a sense of direction. Could you cite some examples?

 

[Gova]

Nabe replaces Handorin!

 

[Gova]

1. Nabe ()
2. BadWolf28738 ()
3. Aggressive Mediation ()
4. Dark Horse ()
5. Gheb_01 ()
6. JTB ()
7. frozenflame751 (SWord)
8. Potassium ()
9. Sworddancer. (K, Gheb, DH, BW)
10. Red Ruy ()
12. Foxy the Silver Fox(JTB)

Not voting: Nabe, AM, FF, Foxy, AM

With 11 playing it takes 6 lynch!

Deadline is Monday, June 10th at 11:59 CST (GMT-6).

 

[Kantrip]

WAIT!

Hi guys guess who's arrived


I said a bunch of evil stuff because I like playing scum so much more than town. I think my replies might have been so evil that Gova was like, "Man this guy clearly just wants scum." and gave me town.



I find it pretty disgusting that your reasoning for not sheeping is due to self-preservation. That's really the big reason you're not willing to sheep someone?


Bleck



FF, what do you think of PJB?

I was rereading from the beginning and noticed this post.

5.) Do not talk about the questions you have received.

@MOD: Request Dark Horse modkill

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

We're here.

Gheb, can I get a readlist?
Foxy, has he given you a readlist?

Reading.