Elements and Attributes Mafia - Game Over!

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Ran side here. Going to be VLA tommorrow. Going to New York... From... 2 hours from now... ****. (Will be for just one day)

Time to sleep. I might post when I come back or the day after if I'm too tired.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

-Read Kantrip/RR for Foxy, although tbph I'll just say right now that I'm most likely to come up town on them both.

Why do you say this?

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Also Ryu can you explain why you chose us for your gambit? Just wondering.

Also before your gambit, what was your read on us?

Now i'm out. Peace.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Also, I'll put my vote in play when I come back.

 

[Kantrip]

Kantrip, why did you choose to not do the Ryu thing you always do ?

Ryu, how did you / do you take this ?

It was stupid, I didn't want to do something stupid in RVS. Been trying something new this game, which is not saying any reads that aren't true. No gambits and no stupid stuff, just real-ness, and it's paying off.

 

[Kantrip]

things to do:

-Read Kantrip/RR for Foxy, although tbph I'll just say right now that I'm most likely to come up town on them both.
-Detailed ISO of PJB and everyone (mostly Gheb) who interacted with him.
-Not get lynched.

Gah this post is WIFOM-ing my drunk brain but it makes me think Sword is town gahhhh

 

[Kantrip]

Also Ryu can you explain why you chose us for your gambit? Just wondering.

Also before your gambit, what was your read on us?

Now i'm out. Peace.

Foxy solid town

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I guess it's the whole Trust no one thing. It's not really a good idea in a game based around support and trust in other's arguments to be the hipster of the group IMO. It doesn't really show good team building. I just view it as something to be looked at.

You misunderstand - I'm not saying that you should trust no one. What I'm saying is that when there's something virtually everybody agrees on then you're better off being wary about it. An argument that has no opposition isn't really an argument. If opposing views practically aren't being taken into consideration then it's important to ask yourself why. That's not an anti-town point of view on things - that's me being worried about people losing sight of things that are important.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Gheb I never thought you would be caught dead accusing someone of the "chainsaw defense." Go into detail as to why those posts come off as chainsaws and not me just pursuing my own reads.

This will take more time than I have right now. I will try to remember going a bit deeper into it.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

You misunderstand - I'm not saying that you should trust no one. What I'm saying is that when there's something virtually everybody agrees on then you're better off being wary about it. An argument that has no opposition isn't really an argument. If opposing views practically aren't being taken into consideration then it's important to ask yourself why. That's not an anti-town point of view on things - that's me being worried about people losing sight of things that are important.

I would have thought that the defender should be the other side, I personally don't think that they would need some kind of liaison to defend them.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Or you avoided it to not get your hands dirty?

Ugh, RR.

RR, I've seen you pull fake claim gambits out twice now, and I was super hard town reading Foxy going into the Night. You made it painfully obvious that you were gambiting, so how is it not plausible that I've simply saw through what you were trying to do and didn't want to interrupt?

Besides, I DID ask you what you wanted me to comment on, but you revealed your hand before I even had a chance. It's not like I wasn't prepared to comment on it.

Why do you say this?

Two reasons:

1. Because if I was going to scum read them then I probably would have already noticed them more. I did notice Kantrip early yesturDay but that admittingly took a backseat for Gheb suspicion. There's nothing but normality that strikes me about either of their play, so while it would be a good idea for me to analyze them more I'm doubting anything fruitful will come up.

2. Again, PoE. I'm already digging 3/4 players as PJB's partner so that doesn't leave too much room for anyone else.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Sorry guys, I've been really busy as of late. Some quick thoughts:

Foxy is pretty town
JTB's first post of the day reeks of opportunism
Gheb town
I need to look at swords more in depth
Does FF have any reads as of late?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I would have thought that the defender should be the other side, I personally don't think that they would need some kind of liaison to defend them.

This post doesn't make sense to me <_<

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

This post doesn't make sense to me <_<

Honk of it in the form of a court room. The idea is that there are already two sides, the defendant and the prosecutor. The others within the game at that point take the role of the jury. The problem that I have is that you left that role to become part of the defendants side. The other problem that I have is that you left your previous stance on him without so much as a backwards glance. It screams to me that you were trying to distance and that it got too much out of hand to the point that you had to try and save him.

Also you're not playing to your town meta but I don't rely on that as much as other people.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Ebwop: think. ****ing autocorrect making me sound like an idiot.

 

[JTB]

prod dodge, ive been sick as **** the past couple days and trying to do anything sucks

ill be in as soon as i get over it

 

[Kantrip]

Would be down for a Dark Horse or JTB lynch because I'm done with their excuses and unexplained reads

 

[Kantrip]

Haven't read but I think I'll be deciding between

Sword and Gheb
and
JTB and DH

for my scumreads. AM, Foxy, RR, and Badwolf are cool. The rest are slipping my mind and probably null.

 

[Kantrip]

I find it incredibly ironic that Gheb is the one who came in here and advocated that it's totally fine for people to be sheep.

See, Ran? That's twisting words.

How is it twisting words? Kantrip asked me if I thought it was cool for him to sheep S&C, and I said that was a bad idea. Then you came in, said I was spreading FUD, and proclaimed baseless sheeping of power players to be perfectly acceptable.

If that's not what you were saying, then fell free to correct me.

See, I disagree with this point entirely. I'm not of the opinion that you should sheep people who "have better judgment". If you don't trust your own judgment, then why are you even playing? How will you be able to make the decision to stop following them if you think your judgment is bad? I'm plenty willing to read someone's argument and decide for myself, but I wouldn't consider it "sheeping" if I happened to come to the same conclusion as somebody else, even if it was based on evidence they showed me.

I dunno what else to tell you, Gheb. I don't think that coming into a game with the attitude of "This guy is smarter than me. Imma just do what he says and hope he helps me win." is a good way to play, and it certainly won't help you improve.

Joker using his sarcastic angry defense on Gheb. If it's distancing, it's well done. It's yet to be seen that Jokerscum and good play go together, so I'm inclined to call this legit.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Kantrip what are your thoughts on Frozen and Hando? They are possibilities too. DH may be giving excuses but I'd rather have Swords and Jtb lynched before him.

 

[Kantrip]

I'm obliging Swiss request.

Vote: PJB

Yoooooo

vote joker

As far as early votes on the first Joker wagon (the one that got to L-1) go, these were the only jumps that lacked substance.

S&C and Gheb were on the wagon as well, and fleshed out their reasoning well. They then went on to undo it all. I'm reflecting more and think both Gheb and S&C were townie in doing so.

lol all this sheeping discussion is bull. Who cares about the term, early pressure wagons are good.


Don't you think giving them the spotlight gives us more information about them to examine, though?
I'd like to know as much about Swiss as I can <3


The what? How is that a priority?


EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

even if this is an RVS post

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

To note: The questions in this post are directed at Joker. Joker failed to answer them, yet he answered everything else that was being asked of him. Why did he ignore Sword's questions? Because he was trying to improve his appearance in thread at the time. This is heavily leaning me towards the Sword scum theory. Joker dun goofed by neglecting to answer his scum buddy's questions.

Don't have much time to post right now but I think that the first few pages have given us a lot of good stuff to talk about. Anybody who still thinks that PJB isn't a good lynch now is acting counter-factual imo. I'll chime in later with more to say.

@mod

I'm voting PJB since post #42.

Gheb was more hard-set on Joker than I thought initially.

Oh you got facts huh? Let's see those facts, Gheb. I'm sure I'll be very impressed by how irrefutable they are.

And then there's more of this sarcastic ****. Gheb town.

PJB wagon also only has two people I kinda have issues with Swords and JTB, I'm not gonna let JTB pull a coast to end game strait, I don't let anyone do that.

Swords is wierd sincehe never came off to me as someone who would bandwagon like that.

Ruy town, but we already knew that.

RR: Are these still two players you're looking at for their jumps on Joker? Or does his scum flip change that?

 

[Kantrip]

Kantrip what are your thoughts on Frozen and Hando? They are possibilities too. DH may be giving excuses but I'd rather have Swords and Jtb lynched before him.

Those are the players I forgot. Umm, I'm not sure. Hando was fine early game but his recent reads have me scratching my head and now he's disappeared. FF is consistently inactive and someone I'll try to deal with after we lynch Sword, probably.

Vote: Sworddancer

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Vote: Sworddancer

I want to make a case but I don't think there needs to be one. I have already given explanation. I also think everyone also agrees.

Choo choo

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

(If some people don't I can make a case upon request)

 

[Kantrip]

True, but it can be very natural though. When reading people, it's not really so much a matter of what people should logically do, but more so a matter of what people do do.

/Zen of Sworddancer



I remain unconvinced. You're suggesting that town PJB would have thought of other reasons against sheeping, but I think that's an unfounded assertion. It's totally possible that's just what came into PJB's mind at the time. Not answering optimally != scummy answer.

@BadWolf, DH, FF: What do you make of PJB's 125 (I want more than just "bleck" from you DH)?




Because it's an accusation that leaves out significant factors from consideration. Kantrip's just saying "Oh look self preservation, scum!" without really considering that that just may be his thought process (WHICH IT TOTALLY COULD BE BTW). I mean there's no real way to know if PJB was acting out of self preservation or just being honest, so how could one be confident in that sort of accusation?

Interesting.

They were soft defending PJB even while on the wagon.

I'm waiting for PJB to respond before I answer to any accusations made against me.

Back from lunch. Getting to other stuff now.

They bring up how they're waiting for PJB to respond.

@Last paragraph: True, but I don't think that really tell us too much about his alignment. It's generic to think that only scum are going "act with a self preservation mentality."

I have more to say on this matter, but I'm still waiting on PJB.

More soft defending PJB while saying they want him to respond.

SD asked me to wait but I got some stuff to say. Hurry up PJB? <3

One more for good measure.

Unvote

Post in the making.

As soon as PJB answers, they immediately unvote. PJB's answer wasn't even anything spectacular, why are they unvoting? When I was accusing GHEB of not having a good time to change his stance on PJB, I was missing the gem that was Legolas and their preparedness to stop voting their scummate and try to get the direction somewhere else. Let's look at what they say next:

Let me start off by saying that I think this PJB wagon still living is justified, so don't get me wrong on that aspect. What I do think, though, is that some people are totally treating it wrong.

Let's start with one thing;

Hurpadurp I have limited mental capacity which drives me to lynch people.

You have to be kidding me if you really believe this. Self preservation is not a ****ing priority, but every post spent pressuring YOU (who is confirmed town to yourself), is a post less spent on finding SCUM. So yes, he is right to want to avoid being pressured, as it impairs his ability and everyone else's to hunt scum.

Swiss is right that a towny looks for scum regardless of how much attention he gets, but if it impairs town's progress then you're just being ********.

On to another (not entirely unrelated) thing, which is his "poor" reaction. Yeah, he prioritizes self preservation, which is a weird thing on knee-jerk, but thinking about it, it's not bad. His actions add up. While I personally don't agree with some stuff, I can see where he's coming from because his thought process doesn't just adapt to whatever's convenient (except for arguably the AM vote, which I agree is off considering other people on the wagon).

The biggest issue I have is that people seem to look at his actions face-value without looking at the intent. Sure, he's low on reads right now. Is that scummy considering the context? Not at all. Look where we are, not even 5 pages in and all he has to work with is people pressuring him, which automatically throws an even larger bias filter on everything, as well as making him defend and attack simultaneously. And he's right, meanwhile other people are just sitting and riding the wave on him. That's not a bad thing, but these double standards are simply unfair.

What about the fact that he says he wants to self preserve? At face value, scummy, sure. Would a scummer really go out of his way to say that though? As WIFOM as that is, think about it considering PJB as a player. It's not like he backtracked out of it, he stands by it. It's not hard to see his point of view, so why does nobody try?

The person I have most issues with is Gheb. While I normally expect Gheb to latch onto this and ask further, there are some things that stand out.

Sometimes he just says things that are off, followed by reasoning that's just plain ****. "Actually playing like town"? Are you ****ing kidding me? "Playing like town"? HE is making this game a matter about himself? Did you even read this game? What part of "PJB is a reactionary player" is hard to understand? Let him pick up his own pace, don't ask him for reads not even 150 posts into a game. Some people haven't even posted outside of RVS. In general those posts read way exaggerated and too hard too fast.

Even reading on, you get posts like this one. WOW. Just wow.


Every single sentence here just reads all kinds of wrong to me.

Now, like I said before, I expect Gheb to go hard in a game, but normally he stays reasonably level headed, but not this time.

It's a combination of his points with his force that makes me doubt his towniness currently. Taking command of this early wagon is an easy way for scum to come across as town without much risk.

Vote: Gheb

Why don't you start giving us some reads, bro? What do you think about AM? If I recall correctly, you're giving him extra attention. What's happening with that?

Oh, so the wagon is still justified? So why were they waiting for Joker's response? Why did they try to change the focus if the wagon was still "justified"? What does "justified" even mean? That it's right to vote Joker, or that Joker is scum? Oh wait, in this post, they defend Joker. So why's the wagon justified? This is bull****, and the jump onto Gheb is bull****, and Sword is scum.

At this time, Gheb is still fighting on the side of the righteous and doesn't turn to the dark side until a bit later, around the same time as S&C. It's Sword and Xonie who make the first, WHOLLY UNJUSTIFIED jump.

This is our lynch for the Day

 

[Kantrip]

For the record, when Sword flips scum FF gets dealt with after JTB/Dark Horse because Sword picked FF as the inactive he wanted to lynch. With one scummate already dead, he would not be bussing his third at this stage.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

I agree with that.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Also weird how they chose FF over JTB. Also yesterday Swords had JTB as null and said that we'd get nothing from him... but yet still wanted FF, even though he'd give the same result, nothing. Hmm.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Here's the post I'm talking about: #701

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Oh yeah, that's also evidence they were really trying to avoid PJB's lynch by deflecting to inactives. Lol didn't he say that Gheb was scummy for calling for inactives???

 

[Kantrip]

Agreed, but nevertheless I think he's scummy, and it would be nice to get rid of an inactive. Do you agree with me about his scumminess?

Also, since JTB is in your lynch pool, would you go him toDay?

JTB was the inactive he tried to deflect to.

Asked about JTB yesterDay, trying for FF toDay. Makes me think if an inactive is scum, DH is the most likely.

Being a small game, it's also possible there is only a two person faction, which would further explain the hard defense of Joker.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Sorry, wrong post:

#698

He never initially brought JTB up. I asked him above. He initially brought up FF, and that was the explanation he gave me. Yet it's possible that DH may connected to him since he never really mentioned him. His response "He's SO null" was weird.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Badwolf, join us on Swords yo.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Being a small game, it's also possible there is only a two person faction, which would further explain the hard defense of Joker.

Possible. I'll expect the worst (3 scum), and welcome the best (2 scum).

 

[Kantrip]

Sorry, wrong post:

#698

He never initially brought JTB up. I asked him above. He initially brought up FF, and that was the explanation he gave me. Yet it's possible that DH may connected to him since he never really mentioned him. His response "He's SO null" was weird.

Yes it's true he chose FF first, but he also asked if you'd go for JTB "since he's in your lynch pool". Seems more like desperation to get someone other than Joker, and I think he would have happily gone for either of them. I think they're both town, now I think on it.

New reads list:

Town
Ruy
AM
Gheb
Foxy
Badwolf
Frozenflame
JTB

Null, possibly Indy
Handorin

Scum
Sworddancer

 

[Kantrip]

Forgot Dark Horse on that, he's in a not-created category called Null, possibly Scum

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

K man.

Badwolf why do you leave me man

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

I've not looked at Swords :/

I'll look tomorrow. I'm so tired from today and last night.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Are you cool with leaving your vote on him until then?

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Um, depends on what he's at now.