"Echo Characters"

[Guynamednelson]

Does an Echo's Special move need to be borrowed from another character from the same series?

Dark Pit Staff is based on Light Arrow, so no.

 

[JarBear]

Dixie can

Dark Pit Staff is based on Light Arrow, so no.

Special as in Special Move ... B buttons. Not final Smash. So for that question, we do not know for certain at this time.

As for other Echoes, Dixie can be an Echo of Diddy. From the presented videos, we do now know if he has his tail multi jab ... it may have been changed which can fit better for Dixie. Also, I do agree, a variation of DK's recovery could work for Dixie.

A list of other possible Echos in the future (DLC). Not a question of probably, but just possible in the sense of mechanics:

Mario Series

Mario & Dr. Mario: I personally don't see a need for an echo because of these two. It almost seems enough as is.

Luigi: One can argue since Mario, Dr. Mario and Luigi can be grouped due to their similarities. But for the sake of it, a Dr. Luigi could be used as an Echo of Luigi ... so both brothers have their PHD. The notable change would be to have the Down-B move converted into a FLUDD like mechanic. Instead of water, it sprays a colorful "medicine" spray based on the pills.

Peach: Got Daisey.

Bowser: Dry Bowser. Popular "character" because of the design. Also was an Alt. Skin for Bowser in Project M. The notable change is Stand B is changed to blue flames that do more damage, but diminishes faster.

Bowser Jr.: Got the Koopalings as Alt. Skins ... so not really needed.

Yoshi: It appears the "Crafty" Yoshi is an Alt Skin. Birdo is possible if the Standard B is changed to be a sucking air animation instead of a tongue. Up-B visually changes to Birdo shooting eggs out of mouth instead of Yoshi throwing them.

Wario: Can't think of anything, he is pretty unique.

 

[letsgetsmashing]

I personally believe that we can give Dixie DK's recovery, with the length of her ponytail. Remember that Chrom do have Aether, but does it differently. He do not throw his sword, and attack instead before jumping. I wonder if he have armor as well.

It's the same move though just with different animations. I feel like if Dixie were to have a move changed she wouldn't be an echo, because it seems that echoes are very strictly characters copied from other characters. Just look at Dr. Mario, he's virtually an exact clone of Mario, but his down special is different, and he's not an echo.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

It's the same move though just with different animations. I feel like if Dixie were to have a move changed she wouldn't be an echo, because it seems that echoes are very strictly characters copied from other characters. Just look at Dr. Mario, he's virtually an exact clone of Mario, but his down special is different, and he's not an echo.

Well, not having a sword thrown make it slightly different... If Dixie had a horizontal recovery where she spin, she can borrow it from DK, with a different animation.

Echoes seems to be a matter of stats more than anything anyway. Dr.Mario isn't an echo mainly because he have a different weight, speed, frame data and all that jazz. Of course he also have different moves, including the Down-Special.

On the other hand, Chrom seems to basically be Roy (so frame data and all) without a sweetspot, hence the echo status.

 

[letsgetsmashing]

Well, not having a sword thrown make it slightly different... If Dixie had a horizontal recovery where she spin, she can borrow it from DK, with a different animation.

Echoes seems to be a matter of stats more than anything anyway. Dr.Mario isn't an echo mainly because he have a different weight, speed, frame data and all that jazz. Of course he also have different moves, including the Down-Special.

On the other hand, Chrom seems to basically be Roy (so frame data and all) without a sweetspot, hence the echo status.

Yeah, I agree Dixie Kong could have DK's recovery and have the animation changed. In general though, I just don't think she would be a good choice of an echo. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with echoes, but I don't think they should be an excuse to get characters with similar builds to others into the game. Like some echoes work perfectly, like if Ken were to echo Ryu, or with Daisy and Peach. Daisy hasn't been developed that much and mostly appears in spinoffs where she does play similar to Peach. But with Dixie Kong, she's been shown to have a fully developed moveset different from Diddy's so I feel like it would be an injustice to have her as an echo. I feel some people are giving up on their favorite characters chances of being unique just because the concept of echoes has arose. And I think people are taking that concept too far, suggesting echoes that wouldn't even remotely make sense, like Banjo & Kazooie for Duck Hunt and Isaac for Marth.

 

[JarBear]

I don't think it is a question of Dixie, or even other characters for that matter, that deserve or do not deserve being a unique fighter. Since it has been noted by Sakurai that Echoes take about 1/4 time to create. So if he wants to add as many fighters possible with "X" time & resources, it is more of who mechanically can be an echo fighter.

Again, not saying anything for or against a possible fighter's "worthiness" or not about uniqueness, just what can work either mechanically and logically.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Yeah, I agree Dixie Kong could have DK's recovery and have the animation changed. In general though, I just don't think she would be a good choice of an echo. Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with echoes, but I don't think they should be an excuse to get characters with similar builds to others into the game. Like some echoes work perfectly, like if Ken were to echo Ryu, or with Daisy and Peach. Daisy hasn't been developed that much and mostly appears in spinoffs where she does play similar to Peach. But with Dixie Kong, she's been shown to have a fully developed moveset different from Diddy's so I feel like it would be an injustice to have her as an echo. I feel some people are giving up on their favorite characters chances of being unique just because the concept of echoes has arose. And I think people are taking that concept too far, suggesting echoes that wouldn't even remotely make sense, like Banjo & Kazooie for Duck Hunt and Isaac for Marth.

I admit that I'm not a Donkey Kong fan (simply never really had the chance to play the games; I should do that with emulation one day) so that's maybe why Dixie don't bother me as an echo.

But I do believe that she is a logical one given the connection between Dixie and Diddy. Like Dark Samus, who have a whole bunch of really really different attacks, and Daisy who still have her own moves (but good luck translating her Double Jump from Super Mario Run as a gimmick in Smash. Triple Jump maybe?), she does have her own moves indeed. But all echoes so far share something with their model, either the build (Daisy), the potential move (Dark Samus having moves like Samus is logical) or even just a class (Chrom isn't linked to Roy, but they are all under a "lord archetype"). Sadly, I also believe she makes sense as an echo because of King K. Rool...

I don't believe people are giving up on the chances of a character being unique. In my case, I hope with all my heart to see Medusa as a unique character, but I also try to be more rational, and see why (and how) she can be an echo. Maybe some people do think of echoes as some sort of "desperate way" of having their favorite included, but that's something that can't be blamed IMO. Even if it's not the red carpet, it means that the character is in.

On the other hand people suggesting stupid things such as Banjo as a Duck Hunt echo are indeed dumb... Let's try to be rational about who can be an echo of who. The only exception could be Black Shadow as a Ganondorf echo, as the moveset is already a variant of Falcon, but even then that would mean that Ganondorf and Black Shadow could share a slot, and that would be weird...

 

[JarBear]

Thinking of your Black Shadow comment ... I wish Sakurai went a bit futher with Ganondorf and change up his specials. If F-ZERO series was to be "rebooted," it would have been a great way to replace Ganondorf's fighter model with Black Shadow and have a "new" Ganondorf that utlized at least different specials.

 

[letsgetsmashing]

I admit that I'm not a Donkey Kong fan (simply never really had the chance to play the games; I should do that with emulation one day) so that's maybe why Dixie don't bother me as an echo.

But I do believe that she is a logical one given the connection between Dixie and Diddy. Like Dark Samus, who have a whole bunch of really really different attacks, and Daisy who still have her own moves (but good luck translating her Double Jump from Super Mario Run as a gimmick in Smash. Triple Jump maybe?), she does have her own moves indeed. But all echoes so far share something with their model, either the build (Daisy), the potential move (Dark Samus having moves like Samus is logical) or even just a class (Chrom isn't linked to Roy, but they are all under a "lord archetype"). Sadly, I also believe she makes sense as an echo because of King K. Rool...

I don't believe people are giving up on the chances of a character being unique. In my case, I hope with all my heart to see Medusa as a unique character, but I also try to be more rational, and see why (and how) she can be an echo. Maybe some people do think of echoes as some sort of "desperate way" of having their favorite included, but that's something that can't be blamed IMO. Even if it's not the red carpet, it means that the character is in.

On the other hand people suggesting stupid things such as Banjo as a Duck Hunt echo are indeed dumb... Let's try to be rational about who can be an echo of who. The only exception could be Black Shadow as a Ganondorf echo, as the moveset is already a variant of Falcon, but even then that would mean that Ganondorf and Black Shadow could share a slot, and that would be weird...

If Medusa were to be playable as a unique fighter that would be awesome, and the first ever female villain in Smash.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Anyone who complains about their most wanted character only getting in as an echo doesn't deserve to have their character in the game at all.

Thinking of your Black Shadow comment ... I wish Sakurai went a bit futher with Ganondorf and change up his specials. If F-ZERO series was to be "rebooted," it would have been a great way to replace Ganondorf's fighter model with Black Shadow and have a "new" Ganondorf that utlized at least different specials.

Pretty sure everyone thinks that.

 

[Quillion]

Pretty sure everyone thinks that.

And turn an awesome punching king into just another heavy sword wielder while shunting off said awesome moveset to some nobody?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Okay, I guess there's at least one person that wants one of the most important Zelda characters to continue having nonsense moveset that has nothing to do with his character stolen from a character from a far less important franchise.

And turn an awesome punching king into a trident wielder

Fixed.

shunting off said copy of Falcon's moveset to someone from Falcon's actual series.

Also fixed.

 

[Quillion]

Okay, I guess there's at least one person that wants one of the most important Zelda characters to continue having nonsense moveset that has nothing to do with his character stolen from a character from a far less important franchise.
Fixed.
Also fixed.

Do Ganondorf's magically-charged ground punch, kicks in WW and TP, and elbow strike in TP not mean anything to you?

Yes, he punches the ground in OoT, but that's no different from Mario's brick breaking being translated into a Shoryuken move.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Do Ganondorf's magically-charged ground punch, kicks in WW and TP, and elbow strike in TP not mean anything to you?

Not when he has entire movesets of wielding tridents, swords and throwing spells, no.

Basing his moveset around "that one time he threw a punch in a cutscene" as a lame excuse to reuse Falcon's moveset is, and always has been, insulting to the character, and so is that argument.

"Oh you know that game where he has a dozen different sword attacks and one kick? Well that's the kick he has in Smash!"

 

[Quillion]

Not when he has entire movesets of wielding tridents, swords and throwing spells, no.

Basing his moveset around "that one time he threw a punch in a cutscene" as a lame excuse to reuse Falcon's moveset is, and always has been, insulting to the character, and so is that argument.

"Oh you know that game where he has a dozen different sword attacks and one kick? Well that's the kick he has in Smash!"

Well, you clearly don't care if Zelda uses her Light Arrows in her regular moveset as projectile normals, so I guess that makes you a hypocrite.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Well, you clearly don't care if Zelda uses her Light Arrows in her regular moveset as projectile normals, so I guess that makes you a hypocrite.

It would if Zelda was copying that move from a character from a different franchise. But she's not, so it doesn't.

 

[Quillion]

It would if Zelda was copying that move from a character from a different franchise. But she's not, so it doesn't.

And yet you want Ganondorf to be another heavy weapon wielder like Ike, Shulk, and Dedede.

 

[JarBear]

Ganondorf’s special moveset does not have to involve a heavy weapon set. Keep his smash moves as is with the sword as is.

Ideas for specials:

Neutral B he could charge up an energy ball above him that shoot out multiple energy balls depending on how long the player charges.

Up-B can function similarly to Zelda’s Ferora’s Wind. However, visually he enters into a black hole-like aura that looks like the one Phanton Ganondorf uses in Ocarina of Time. He then exits one that appears depending on the direction the player uses.

Down B works a lot like Bowser’s down B. I’d on the ground Ganondorf jumps up and then quickly punches the ground that causes a shockwave. The twist is if he does this next to an opponent, he grabs then and performs the move that the slams them down.

Side B he flips his cape that acts as a reflector.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Also, Ganondorf, even with a sword, could still use some of his current normal. F-Tilt & Dair are two notable moves he can keep.

 

[fogbadge]

how about lanky kong and lola pop as echoes of each other?

no youre right thats crazy ill see myself out

 

[Gemini-Gene]

Ganondorf’s special moveset does not have to involve a heavy weapon set. Keep his smash moves as is with the sword as is.

Ideas for specials:

Neutral B he could charge up an energy ball above him that shoot out multiple energy balls depending on how long the player charges.

Up-B can function similarly to Zelda’s Ferora’s Wind. However, visually he enters into a black hole-like aura that looks like the one Phanton Ganondorf uses in Ocarina of Time. He then exits one that appears depending on the direction the player uses.

Down B works a lot like Bowser’s down B. I’d on the ground Ganondorf jumps up and then quickly punches the ground that causes a shockwave. The twist is if he does this next to an opponent, he grabs then and performs the move that the slams them down.

Side B he flips his cape that acts as a reflector.

I would even include Peach's float mechanic. It's funny how Ganondorf can only float in Smash if he has a Tanuki Mario item, but he should've had this ability as well as the specials you've listed years ago. I mean I'm grateful that Sakurai gave Ganondorf his sword for Smash attacks (which look pretty slow) and made him slightly better in Ultimate but he's not developing him to his full potential.

Also Black Shadow would've been a better clone and semi clone choice for C.falcon.

 

[GolisoPower]

Back on the Dovahkiin thread, I had an idea for an Echo Fighter for him should he make it in:

Miraak, the main antagonist of the Dragonborn DLC storyline.

They could fight similarly, with Miraak having some things to distinguish himself from the OG Dovahkiin, and also, Miraak’s a villain, and Smash certainly needs more of those!

 

[Quillion]

Ganondorf’s special moveset does not have to involve a heavy weapon set. Keep his smash moves as is with the sword as is.

Ideas for specials:

Neutral B he could charge up an energy ball above him that shoot out multiple energy balls depending on how long the player charges.

Up-B can function similarly to Zelda’s Ferora’s Wind. However, visually he enters into a black hole-like aura that looks like the one Phanton Ganondorf uses in Ocarina of Time. He then exits one that appears depending on the direction the player uses.

Down B works a lot like Bowser’s down B. I’d on the ground Ganondorf jumps up and then quickly punches the ground that causes a shockwave. The twist is if he does this next to an opponent, he grabs then and performs the move that the slams them down.

Side B he flips his cape that acts as a reflector.

That's just a Mewtwo semi-clone. Energy ball, reflector, teleport... I thought you don't want him to be like other characters.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

The projectile would be really different though. And I would personally keep his side-B.

 

[DarthEnderX]

He's just being a **** now. He knows damn well theres a difference between a move that functions the same and a bunch of moves that straight up use the same animations. He's just pretending there isn't so he can keep arguing.

 

[JarBear]

His Side B could stay, it is the more unique and interesting of his clone-ish moveset of Cpt. Falcon. The whole choke thing fits with his characters. If that was to be kept as is, then his cape flip would be the Standard B.

 

[PeridotGX]

Any reason nobody predicts Impa? I find her quite likely as a Sheik echo.

 

[GolisoPower]

Any reason nobody predicts Impa? I find her quite likely as a Sheik echo.

Maybe because they think of either the old woman they usually see or the young one who uses a weapon that doesn’t match up with Sheik’s moveset, like a giant cleaver or a naginata, when they think of Impa.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

But on the other hand, SS Impa is the perfect fit as a Sheik echo. Plus, I love HW but the giant sword isn't really Impa, she is the only Zelda character with a totally made up weapon. A reference as a final smash wouldn't bother me though, it's would be like Donkey Konga's bongos in previous Smash (it's basically a Taiko no Tatsujin game after all).

 

[FalconFire93]

My wishlist for echoes is the bottom row of characters in my signature over who I’d like to see make it.

Dixie - Diddy
Impa - Sheik
Medusa - Palutena
Ninten - Ness
Black Knight - Ike
Ken - Ryu
Shadow - Sonic
Ms. Pac-Man - Pac-Man

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Spoiler

Mario: N/A
Donkey Kong: Funky Kong
Link: Linkle
Yoshi: Birdo
Kirby: N/A
Fox: James McCloud
Pikachu: N/A
Luigi: N/A
Ness: Ninten
Captain Falcon: Black Shadow
Jigglypuff: N/A
Bowser: N/A
Ice Climbers: N/A
Sheik: Impa
Zelda: Hilda
Dr. Mario: N/A
Pichu: N/A
Falco: N/A
Young Link: N/A
Ganondorf: Demise
Mewtwo: N/A
Mr. Game & Watch: N/A
Meta Knight: Dark Meta Knight
Zero Suit Samus: N/A
Wario: N/A
Snake: Big Boss
Ike: Black Knight
Pokemon Trainer: N/A
Diddy Kong: Dixie Kong
Lucas: N/A
Sonic: Shadow
King Dedede: N/A
Olimar: Louie
R.O.B.: N/A
Lucario: N/A
Toon Link: N/A
Wolf: N/A
Villager: N/A
Mega Man: Bass
Wii Fit Trainer: N/A
Rosalina & Luma: N/A
Little Mac: Glass Joe
Greninja: N/A
Mii Fighter: N/A
Palutena: Medusa
Pac-Man: Ms. Pac-Man
Robin: Celica
Shulk: N/A
Bowser Jr.: N/A
Duck Hunt: N/A
Ryu: Ken
Cloud: Zack Fair
Corrin: N/A
Bayonetta: Jeanne
Inkling: Octoling
Ridley: N/A
King K. Rool: Lord Fredrik
Isabelle: Digby

 

[JarBear]

I like your list. I would say from it, Blood Falcon would be a better choice for a Captain Falcon Echo. Black Shadow would have been great if he took Ganondorf's moveset and Ganondorf became more unique.

Lord Fredrik has the right body size/dimensions/look ... but he doesn't really fit K. Rook's moves though.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I like your list. I would say from it, Blood Falcon would be a better choice for a Captain Falcon Echo. Black Shadow would have been great if he took Ganondorf's moveset and Ganondorf became more unique.

Lord Fredrik has the right body size/dimensions/look ... but he doesn't really fit K. Rook's moves though.

Personally would had added Blood Falcon as his echo but he's already deconfirmed due to returning as a costume for the same reason as Galacta Knight is for Meta Knight.

 

[MrElectroG64]

Here's an idea for an echo that had just dawned upon me, Cackletta & Fawful as an echo of Rosalina & Luma. I think I'll make a schematic for it later...

 

[zferolie]

So why are there so many youtubers and others just thinking Shadow and Ken are the only Echos left happening? I think thats a very dumb and shortsighted idea. No way they will only give us 3 third party echos left, when they are quite easy to make and can pad out the roster.

Medusa, Ms Pac Man, Impa, Black Shadow, Dixie Kong, and Ninten all pop into mind as others that easily can be still coming. Rememberm Sakurai only said the slow down of reveal TRAILERS, and echos don't have their own trailer per say, so we can get a batch of echos in the middle of the month and Sakurai wouldn't be lieing.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

So why are there so many youtubers and others just thinking Shadow and Ken are the only Echos left happening? I think thats a very dumb and shortsighted idea. No way they will only give us 3 third party echos left, when they are quite easy to make and can pad out the roster.

Medusa, Ms Pac Man, Impa, Black Shadow, Dixie Kong, and Ninten all pop into mind as others that easily can be still coming. Rememberm Sakurai only said the slow down of reveal TRAILERS, and echos don't have their own trailer per say, so we can get a batch of echos in the middle of the month and Sakurai wouldn't be lieing.

Dixie and Medusa are among my predictions. I believe we'll be getting 4 more uniques (69: Incineroar, 70: Banjo or Steve, 71: Elma and 72: Geno) and four more echos (36e: Dixie Kong, 38e: Shadow, 54e: Medusa and 60e: Ken) rounding out to 82 playable characters including echos (87 if we count Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard and the Miis as separate).

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Well, Ken & Shadow are simply in rumors, so that's why they are talked about right now. Even a fake leak can give spotlight to a character after all!

I believe that we'll get more than two echo, too. Shadow seems to be a given to me, and Ken, while not something needed, is basically the original echo... But there's potential in other Nintendo characters. Impa and Dixie of course, but also Ninten, Black Shadow (they both are a good way to expand "dead" series), octolings (maybe too young), Jeanne, and of course Medusa.

That's the potential echoes I see, although we won't see all of them.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Octolings I feel if anything will be DLC tbh.

 

[zferolie]

Dixie and Medusa are among my predictions. I believe we'll be getting 4 more uniques (69: Incineroar, 70: Banjo or Steve, 71: Elma and 72: Geno and four more echos (36e: Dixie Kong, 38e: Shadow, 54e: Medusa and 60e: Ken) rounding out to 82 playable characters including echos (87 if we count Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard and the Miis as separate).

Well actually 8 more will bring us to 80 according to the website, which currently lists 72 fighters(Mii's are counted on their own). If pokemon was 3 then it would be 82.

80 does sound like a nice number to end on though No shantae on your list makes me sad though

Octolings I feel if anything will be DLC tbh.

Yeah octolings would be an easy, and Likely, DLC for the game

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Lord Fredrik has the right body size/dimensions/look ... but he doesn't really fit K. Rook's moves though.

He can suck opponents in using his horn, toss his viking helmet like how King K. Rool does with his crown and due to being "fat" like him use the stomach counter like him.

Only ones I have trouble with is the Kopter and Blast-O-Matic but maybe he could simply just have the Chrom treatment who has some of Ike's moves despite being an echo of Roy.